Trump's FBI Raid Goes Nuclear

[1pooh4u]

17 hours ago, Raptorpat said:

I think it's fair to emphasize optics beyond their on-paper merit, because it's probably true that most of the public doesn't have the bandwidth and/or interest in the actual details behind the merits, and decisions of this caliber do factor in public reception whether they should or shouldn't.

It's super unfortunate but the things that get talked don't attract eyeballs for their nuance.

So the suggestion that Trump will get away with an intentional act of stealing truckloads of classified documents because Biden had unintentionally a dozen classified documents because lay people don’t understand anything other than “classified documents found” is a possibility?  

what kind of fuckin Justice system is this?

[rpgamer]

The kind where you can't make one party look bad or else they'll throw a fit?

[Raptorpat]

It's tough because every decision at the top levels is made having to factor in political realities to some degree.

Like on paper presidents aren't above the law but the practical reality is DOJ is going to be run by appointees from their party or from the opposing party and there's no way for any decision to not appear to have some political taint. It's why Garland has been so meticulous (slow) to ensure that every i is dotted and t is crossed before he does anything to ensure he can justify it.

Another example is impeachment. On paper it's a trial, but in reality it's just how many seats do political supporters and opponents have and there are your results, merits need not apply.

The bottom line is that MD is right that political optics are going to be relevant to the decision-making. It's not a great or even good thing, but it's always a factor. 

Edit: I'm not saying nothing will happen now, but this certainly complicates decision-making.

[1pooh4u]

I don’t understand how it complicates anything the two cases are nothing alike and optics shouldn’t matter any further than appearing, and actually being, impartial. Garland was smart to appoint Hur because he’s a Trump appointee but to not charge Trump with what he deserves to be charged with because of optics is fucked up. 

[André Toulon]

They were never going to charge Trump with anything regarding those documents and looked for an excuse not to. Now they have it.

[1pooh4u]

38 minutes ago, André Toulon said:

They were never going to charge Trump with anything regarding those documents and looked for an excuse not to. Now they have it.

Yeah looks like they got their “get out of jail free” they’ve been wanting.  
 

 

[NewBluntsworth]

56 minutes ago, André Toulon said:

They were never going to charge Trump with anything 

 

[Raptorpat]

1 hour ago, 1pooh4u said:

I don’t understand how it complicates anything the two cases are nothing alike and optics shouldn’t matter any further than appearing, and actually being, impartial. Garland was smart to appoint Hur because he’s a Trump appointee but to not charge Trump with what he deserves to be charged with because of optics is fucked up. 

I agree, optics shouldn't matter. But politics is layered into everything at that level. He's a Democratic appointee investigating the top Republican, it's just not possible to divorce an investigation from that reality. It's one of those few scenarios where it's like "maybe the robots would be better".

[1pooh4u]

Robots wouldn’t be better because bias people create them but I get the sentiment.  
 

In any case it’s being investigated and whatever they find that’s potentially criminal should be dealt with. 

[Master-Debater131]

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/12/joe-biden-classified-documents-00077822

Biden is in a hole of his own making

"The two cases are markedly different. But some Democrats privately concede that their coexistence gives the president’s critics a chance to denounce him as negligent, hypocritical or careless right at a time when things were moving Biden’s way.

“I think it takes the whole Trump scandal off the table,” said one Democratic Party operative, granted anonymity to speak freely about the delicate situation unfolding around the president.

“Most polls show that voters don’t give a fuck about this stuff,” they added. “But the media momentum is real.”"

 

This unnamed Democrat also hits on a key point, most people don't care about this. For the vast majority of people Trump is already an afterthought, and Biden having classified material in his house is far down the list of things people are concerned about. This really is only an issue for people who are really into politics or permanently online.

[scoobdog]

3 hours ago, André Toulon said:

They were never going to charge Trump with anything regarding those documents and looked for an excuse not to. Now they have it.

Right?

2 hours ago, Raptorpat said:

I agree, optics shouldn't matter. But politics is layered into everything at that level. He's a Democratic appointee investigating the top Republican, it's just not possible to divorce an investigation from that reality. It's one of those few scenarios where it's like "maybe the robots would be better".

Well, I revise my stance to agree somewhat that optics do matter but not as a direct qualifier.  Interesting opinion piece in the LA Times showed up today:

Quote

Column: The special counsel appointment in the Biden case tells us something new about Merrick Garland

Did Atty. Gen. Merrick Garland have no choice but to appoint a special counsel to handle the Biden documents case? That’s not what the law says.

Merrick Garland’s appointment of special counsel Robert Hur to investigate the burgeoning Biden documents problem tells us something new about the attorney general.

Notwithstanding his image as a “just the facts and law” prosecutor, Garland, it appears, may factor into key high-profile decisions, political considerations and the importance of public confidence in the Justice Department’s evenhandedness.

No surprise, one might say. But until now, Garland has maintained and burnished a reputation as a wholeheartedly apolitical attorney general, indifferent to the consequences of his actions on the other branches and the public.

Indeed, even as he turned over to Jack Smith the oversight role in the Justice Department's Trump investigations, Garland pointedly invoked the letter of the law, the “extraordinary circumstances” that required the appointment of a special counsel.

As the President Biden documents surfaced this week — a small number, including classified documents, found in two places — the near-unanimous assessment of commentators has been that Garland had “no choice” but to appoint a special counsel in the matter.

But that’s not what the law says. The Justice Department regulation calls for a special counsel to be appointed only “when the attorney general determines that a criminal investigation of a person or matter is warranted” and that “the investigation … would present a conflict of interest for the department, or other extraordinary circumstances.”

The key determination, then, is that a criminal investigation is warranted. Based on what we know to date — and it’s possible the Justice Department's preliminary investigation turned up facts related to the Biden documents that are as yet unreported — there’s simply no legal basis to conclude that a criminal investigation is warranted.

As we’ve learned again and again over the Trump years, the linchpin of most crimes, including document-based ones, is intent. Former President Trump is in document hot water, and deservedly, because the evidence suggests strongly that he knowingly and intentionally took government documents that should have been turned over to the National Archives, and then spearheaded multiple rounds of resistance and lying to the authorities that wanted them back.

By contrast, nothing we know suggests in the slightest that Biden acted intentionally in violation of the law. The record is bare of any indication that the president even knew the documents had left the White House.

Don’t get me wrong. The discovery of not one but two sets of government material in an office Biden used in Washington and at his Delaware residence certainly is cause for concern. It is most obviously a political headache that is now reaching migraine proportions. It also raises questions. How often do presidents and vice presidents leave office with classified documents? How are such documents accounted for, and how should those methods be tightened?

And the situation cries out for an investigation into how and why the documents weren’t handed over the archives when Biden left office as vice president.

But what it doesn't cry out for is a criminal investigation. (One politically useful aspect of Hur’s appointment is the likelihood that he will determine that and put an end to the president’s problem.)

It is without doubt understandable why Garland appointed Hur. A special counsel in charge of the investigation takes away a club that the Republican House majority has already begun using to beat up on Garland, the Justice Department and the president. No matter what Hur finds, the peanut gallery will continue to shout and clamor, but Hur's appointment — a former U.S. attorney, senior official at the Department of Justice, clerk to late Supreme Court Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, and a current partner at Gibson Dunn — should reassure the public that any decision in the case is not political.

In fact, it may be welcome news to the White House, which can more staunchly defend itself by arguing that the investigation is on the up and up, and point repeatedly down the street to the Justice Department.

But all that's a matter of politics and appearances, not the letter of the law, supposedly Garland's north star.

In public forums and in legal circles, there has been an on going debate about what role politics and public opinion could play in Garland’s decisions related to the Justice Department's investigation of Trump’s Jan. 6 actions and the White House documents he repeatedly refused to turn over to the National Archives.

I think we have an answer.

Garland does not reside entirely in an empyrean realm of the law. He lives and works in Washington, where, as he famously said, during the outrageous stonewalling of his nomination to the Supreme Court, “If you want a friend, get a dog.”

Garland’s decision to appoint a special counsel in the Biden documents case displays a Washingtonian’s situational awareness and an acknowledgment of nuanced political concerns. Not bad qualities for the head of a government agency, but a new gloss on the character of the most important attorney general since Watergate.

@HarryLitman

How optics appear has more to do with how much distance certain people can put between themselves and uncomfortable political situations.  There was never a situation where Garland was going to charge Trump just for mishandling documents, and it had nothing to do with optics and everything to do with a highly complex prosecution for little to no judicial benefit.  Trump's true menace has always been his ability to manipulate others, and, rightly, that's should be the focus of any investigation including the documents one. Still, Merrick has always had to contend with Democrats who equally feel the need to go after Trump in any way possible and have the expectation that any investigation end in some kind of official judicial response.  The fact he is separating himself from the investigation into the Biden documents almost assuredly indicates that optics plays a role specifically in how the public sees partisan interference in official proceedings.  MD isn't right in saying the optics are relevant directly to decisions, but she is right that it impacts how the decision making process is impacted by contributing choices.

[Raptorpat]

Re special counsel:

lol

 

[scoobdog]

1 hour ago, Raptorpat said:

Re special counsel:

lol

 

I don't think that's the dog he was referring to, but it'll do.

[Raptorpat]

what if the messaging turns into "they planted classified documents to justify a fake special counsel in order to block us from investigating them"

[scoobdog]

29 minutes ago, Raptorpat said:

what if the messaging turns into "they planted classified documents to justify a fake special counsel in order to block us from investigating them"

I think that's more Matt Getz' dog than Kevin McCarthy's dog

[katt_goddess]

3 hours ago, Raptorpat said:

Re special counsel:

lol

 

I think she has to prove that she herself is capable of reading and comprehending things more complicated than the instructions on her crotch rot cream tube before going off about requesting things.

[Sieg67]

1 hour ago, katt_goddess said:

I think she has to prove that she herself is capable of reading and comprehending things more complicated than the instructions on her crotch rot cream tube before going off about requesting things.

Implying that she doesn't try to eat the cream.

[katt_goddess]

17 minutes ago, Sieg67 said:

Implying that she doesn't try to eat the cream.

Touche.

Brought to the world by the same people who think animal dewormer is good medicine, it's Crotch Rot Creamer! Smear it on your toast, squirt that shit into your coffee, suck it straight out of the tube. It'll fix that itch to be a dumb bitch

[Ginguy]

So, when will we see photos of all the classified documents laid out on the floors of the three different locations where Biden illegally stored them?

 

[1pooh4u]

47 minutes ago, Ginguy said:

So, when will we see photos of all the classified documents laid out on the floors of the three different locations where Biden illegally stored them?

 

You won’t because they were turned over voluntarily unlike your lord and savior Trump, who lied and obstructed the entire process escalating the situation. The only person to blame for how Trump has been treated is Trump himself. 

[stilgar]

1 hour ago, Ginguy said:

So, when will we see photos of all the classified documents laid out on the floors of the three different locations where Biden illegally stored them?

 

We will see that once you go fuck yourself. 

[Top Gun]

That would involve him having the necessary equipment for such a task.

[naraku360]

7 hours ago, Ginguy said:

So, when will we see photos of all the classified documents laid out on the floors of the three different locations where Biden illegally stored them?

 

Who hurt you?

[Ginguy]

So, now we are up to 4 different locations....

Let not your heart be troubled, Biden's aides and lawyers (who don't have clearances but that totally doesn't constitute gross mishandling) have totally been looking to make sure that there aren't any more places.

 

 

[naraku360]

18 minutes ago, Ginguy said:

So, now we are up to 4 different locations....

Let not your heart be troubled, Biden's aides and lawyers (who don't have clearances but that totally doesn't constitute gross mishandling) have totally been looking to make sure that there aren't any more places.

 

 

Nuclear documents at Mar-a-Lago.

[katt_goddess]

37 minutes ago, Ginguy said:

So, now we are up to 4 different locations....

Let not your heart be troubled, Biden's aides and lawyers (who don't have clearances but that totally doesn't constitute gross mishandling) have totally been looking to make sure that there aren't any more places.

 

 

I'm not sure if I can make words smaller for you so have someone who can read do so out loud for you.

More found because he TOLD them to search everywhere. 

They are working WITH people.

No subpoenas needed or ignored.

No need for an FBI raid to retrieve anything. 

Nothing hanging out in public areas as 'trophies'.

No empty folders coded to NOT be empty. 

Biden was in the WH for 8 years = ~20? files. Citrus Pucker was in the WH for 4 years [ when he wasn't at his personal golf resorts on taxpayer's money ] = 100's of files that had to be forcibly removed with potentially far more hidden or outright sold. 

Can't claim its a nothingburger when it's your guy but suddenly decide the law of the land needs to be applied with a sledgehammer for not even a 10th of your guy's bullshit. 

[Top Gun]

I'm not defending Biden at all in this, like there's no reason that anything leaving the White House at the end of a term shouldn't be gone over with an absolute fine-toothed comb, but I guaran-fucking-tee you that prior administrations probably have classified documents sitting in some old musty box  in a closet too.

[Ginguy]

So, hey, they found even more documents.

This time it was DoJ people, not lawyers without clearances.

 

Still no raid or photos though....

 

[stilgar]

Cry more about it fuck face.

[Sieg67]

5 hours ago, Ginguy said:

So, hey, they found even more documents.

This time it was DoJ people, not lawyers without clearances.

 

Still no raid or photos though....

 

 Yeah, because he's fully cooperating. 
Trump was given months to turn over the documents before a warrant was issued.  That's way more leeway than they would have given anybody else.  We would have never heard about it if he cooperated.
Even after the "raid", Trump lied and said all the documents were handed over.  Then he claimed they were planted.  Then he claimed they were his.  He claimed that they're a "keep keepsake."


We have one person kicking a screaming going "NO, THEY'RE MINE.  YOU CAN'T HAVE THEM." and then we have another person going, "Ooops, mybad. Go ahead and take them back."
So yeah, you don't have a gotcha with this false equivalence. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Sieg67

[katt_goddess]

4 hours ago, Ginguy said:

So, hey, they found even more documents.

This time it was DoJ people, not lawyers without clearances.

 

Still no raid or photos though....

 

Because he TOLD THEM TO GO LOOK AT ALL THE THINGS. Duh. 

Why don't you let us all know when he starts flailing and claiming that all the things are all his and he magically unclassified them with a single telepathic thought from his big brain? 

[NewBluntsworth]

Just now, katt_goddess said:

Because he TOLD THEM TO GO LOOK AT ALL THE THINGS. Duh. 

"Go check absolutely everywhere, I may have classified documents scattered about just anywhere and everywhere"

Huh ok, cool

[katt_goddess]

3 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

"Go check absolutely everywhere, I may have classified documents scattered about just anywhere and everywhere"

Huh ok, cool

So I have to use the small words with you too, huh? Fine.

At the start of all this when the first docs were found while cleaning out a locked closet, a list of areas where paperwork in general would be stored was likely created including not just addresses but locations within those places where all sorts of shit would be boxed up. There's no raid involved because all the potential areas and then some are being gone through just to be complete.  

[naraku360]

5 hours ago, Ginguy said:

So, hey, they found even more documents.

This time it was DoJ people, not lawyers without clearances.

 

Still no raid or photos though....

 

 

[Jman]

Clearly the feds need to hire better record managers.

[Master-Debater131]

 

 

 

 

[Master-Debater131]

Honestly, this just furthers the point that we over classify documents and we have an absolutely atrocious process for taking documents when you leave government.
 

The entire thing needs an overhaul.

[naraku360]

3 hours ago, Master-Debater131 said:

Honestly, this just furthers the point that we over classify documents

How so?

[1pooh4u]

3 hours ago, Master-Debater131 said:

 

 

 

 

[André Toulon]

4 hours ago, Master-Debater131 said:

Honestly, this just furthers the point that we over classify documents and we have an absolutely atrocious process for taking documents when you leave government.
 

The entire thing needs an overhaul.

Hi, it's me...the dumb guy.

But why tho. In what context is it ok to remove classified documents....any documents. 

I'm sure the precedent exists but taking anything marked classified just seems shady...is the document just paltry AF....like is the weekly white house menu classified, the invite to the pj party, the memos about the new season of p valley 

[katt_goddess]

29 minutes ago, André Toulon said:

Hi, it's me...the dumb guy.

But why tho. In what context is it ok to remove classified documents....any documents. 

I'm sure the precedent exists but taking anything marked classified just seems shady...is the document just paltry AF....like is the weekly white house menu classified, the invite to the pj party, the memos about the new season of p valley 

Devil's Advocate -

I think some documents are literally just lists of heads of state that will be at a certain place at a certain time. Some of those set-ups aren't allowed to be 'public knowledge' at least during the time its all being set up because of potential bad actors / assassination potential [ summary - butt-cover for all things ] but after a while they aren't as important as the file indicates. So being very honest, I could see something like that - an itinerary of sorts - getting set aside and accidentally scooped up without anyone truly knowing its missing, especially if there's multiple copies of the thing. 

 

That said, I'm surprised Pence has a home. I was sure that he's been living in government housing for so long he didn't actually have a home to hide things in.  

[scoobdog]

1 hour ago, André Toulon said:

Hi, it's me...the dumb guy.

But why tho. In what context is it ok to remove classified documents....any documents. 

I'm sure the precedent exists but taking anything marked classified just seems shady...is the document just paltry AF....like is the weekly white house menu classified, the invite to the pj party, the memos about the new season of p valley 

I think the question is... what constitutes remove?  I know it's a further complication, but what I'm getting about this entire episode all the way back starting with Trump is that these documents aren't provided in a secure location.  So, there really isn't a place to remove them from - important elected officials (at the least) are given those documents whenever and wherever depending on when an important decision or action is taken.  Presumably, that means the someone with a top secret document could even give the President a high security document while he's teeing off on the 12th hole.  The fact that these are given on an honor system basis suggests they're not critical to national security like that.

I say that with the assumption that any of the documents distributed that has something like, say, a list of covert operatives or pictures of sensitive installations in it doesn't leave with he President or Vice President.  The secure location, in the case being the specific space that the document is distributed then collected without leaving a defined perimeter.

[naraku360]

1 hour ago, katt_goddess said:

Devil's Advocate -

I think some documents are literally just lists of heads of state that will be at a certain place at a certain time. Some of those set-ups aren't allowed to be 'public knowledge' at least during the time its all being set up because of potential bad actors / assassination potential [ summary - butt-cover for all things ] but after a while they aren't as important as the file indicates. So being very honest, I could see something like that - an itinerary of sorts - getting set aside and accidentally scooped up without anyone truly knowing its missing, especially if there's multiple copies of the thing. 

 

That said, I'm surprised Pence has a home. I was sure that he's been living in government housing for so long he didn't actually have a home to hide things in.  

I would imagine we do overclassify. What I, and I presume Buddy is as well, wondering is how this specific instance applies.

I was under the impression we don't have much to go off as far as Biden or Pence go. Trump is the outlier as far as details go, and that's largely his own fault.

[Mix]

46 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

I think the question is... what constitutes remove?  I know it's a further complication, but what I'm getting about this entire episode all the way back starting with Trump is that these documents aren't provided in a secure location.  So, there really isn't a place to remove them from - important elected officials (at the least) are given those documents whenever and wherever depending on when an important decision or action is taken.  Presumably, that means the someone with a top secret document could even give the President a high security document while he's teeing off on the 12th hole.  The fact that these are given on an honor system basis suggests they're not critical to national security like that.

I say that with the assumption that any of the documents distributed that has something like, say, a list of covert operatives or pictures of sensitive installations in it doesn't leave with he President or Vice President.  The secure location, in the case being the specific space that the document is distributed then collected without leaving a defined perimeter.

Stop making sense, damn you.

All these people need to be put in prison immediately.

The same prison preferably.

Trump and Pence in one cell. Biden and his vice co-captain (the name escapes me, I wanna say Shonda Rhimes for some reason) in the next cell.

Guns trained on them at all times to prevent even the slightest chance that they might again get their hands on a classified White House Party RSVP list.

[katt_goddess]

42 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

I would imagine we do overclassify. What I, and I presume Buddy is as well, wondering is how this specific instance applies.

I was under the impression we don't have much to go off as far as Biden or Pence go. Trump is the outlier as far as details go, and that's largely his own fault.

Biden's docs are ancient by political standards. Pence, depending on what was found and turned over [ since he's being cooperative too ] is more recent. And since Drumpf didn't do state dinners or much entertaining at the WH, I do wonder if his are worse than just random itineraries. 

[katt_goddess]

50 minutes ago, Mix said:

Stop making sense, damn you.

All these people need to be put in prison immediately.

The same prison preferably.

Trump and Pence in one cell. Biden and his vice co-captain (the name escapes me, I wanna say Shonda Rhimes for some reason) in the next cell.

Guns trained on them at all times to prevent even the slightest chance that they might again get their hands on a classified White House Party RSVP list.

Trump and Pence is a single cell would be something to see and hear since Trumpy is a germaphobe. 

It's how reports of him ripping up things and trying to flush them were easy enough to follow because he would have been the only one allowed to use that toilet. 

[Seight]

1 hour ago, Mix said:

Stop making sense, damn you.

All these people need to be put in prison immediately.

The same prison preferably.

Trump and Pence in one cell. Biden and his vice co-captain (the name escapes me, I wanna say Shonda Rhimes for some reason) in the next cell.

Guns trained on them at all times to prevent even the slightest chance that they might again get their hands on a classified White House Party RSVP list.

INSTRUCTIONS UNCLEAR

TRUMP/PENCE VS. BIDEN/HARRIS IN A STEEL CAGE MATCH!!!

(BOOM!)
LETS GO- IGNITE
ELEMENTS COLLIDE
AND A FLASH OF LIGHT

[naraku360]

2 hours ago, Mix said:

Stop making sense, damn you.

All these people need to be put in prison immediately.

The same prison preferably.

Trump and Pence in one cell. Biden and his vice co-captain (the name escapes me, I wanna say Shonda Rhimes for some reason) in the next cell.

Guns trained on them at all times to prevent even the slightest chance that they might again get their hands on a classified White House Party RSVP list.

No dude.

You have to make it Trump/Biden and Pence/Harris.

Trump and Biden trapped together would be brilliant. Pence and Harris, though? Bruh, dude claims he won't dine or go to events serving alcohol with a woman unless his wife is present while Harris would spend the whole time awkwardly trying to girlboss him around.

It'd become a clash of titans: World's Least Charismatic Girlboss v. Saddest, Most Impotent Pervert in History

[Mix]

1 hour ago, katt_goddess said:

Trump and Pence is a single cell would be something to see and hear since Trumpy is a germaphobe. 

It's how reports of him ripping up things and trying to flush them were easy enough to follow because he would have been the only one allowed to use that toilet. 

This can't be true. That's dude's the dirtiest.....like.....that's not a tan

[Mix]

26 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

No dude.

You have to make it Trump/Biden and Pence/Harris.

Trump and Biden trapped together would be brilliant. Pence and Harris, though? Bruh, dude claims he won't dine or go to events serving alcohol with a woman unless his wife is present while Harris would spend the whole time awkwardly trying to girlboss him around.

It'd become a clash of titans: World's Least Charismatic Girlboss v. Saddest, Most Impotent Pervert in History

I thought they kept gangs separate in prison.