Eye rolling moment (NSFXMAS)

[tsar4]

Never was a fan of the song, but seriously?

https://wgntv.com/2018/11/30/radio-station-stops-playing-baby-its-cold-outside-amid-me-too-movement/

[Mr Owl]

Fucking retards it a Christmas song you only here once a year for fucks sake 

[Vamped]

>.>

well I mean .... its a song about a possible date rape 

 

I didn't catch the part where the woman goes .... "what did you put in this drink?"  until like 3 years ago and I was like .... wait what?

Edited November 30, 2018 by Vamped

[Naraku4656]

3 minutes ago, Vamped said:

>.>

well I mean .... its a song about a date rape 

this is a song about date rape

 

[tsar4]

5 minutes ago, Vamped said:

>.>

well I mean .... its a song about a possible date rape 

 

I didn't catch the part where the woman goes .... "what did you put in this drink?"  until like 3 years ago and I was like .... wait what?

They didn't have roofies in the 40s.  "Course it could have been a "Mickey".

[Vamped]

Just now, tsar4 said:

They didn't have roofies in the 40s.  "Course it could have been a "Mickey".

I don't know if the woman says it in the old version but I know its in the version Ray Charles sings and that was in the 60's

[Vamped]

8 minutes ago, Naraku4656 said:

this is a song about date rape

 

oh? So that makes 2 songs about date rape in the same thread 

[rpgamer]

Maybe folks could come up with some new songs, instead of just reusing it remaking the same stuff for a century.

[tsar4]

8 minutes ago, Vamped said:

I don't know if the woman says it in the old version but I know its in the version Ray Charles sings and that was in the 60's

Ella & Satchmo do a version.  

[tsar4]

59 minutes ago, rpgamer said:

Maybe folks could come up with some new songs, instead of just reusing it remaking the same stuff for a century.

1940s is quite a bit less than 100 years ago.  There are plenty of more recent Christmas songs, a few are even listenable.

[GuyBeardmane]

2 hours ago, Vamped said:

>.>

well I mean .... its a song about a possible date rape 

 

I didn't catch the part where the woman goes .... "what did you put in this drink?"  until like 3 years ago and I was like .... wait what?

It's a song about two grasshoppers who both want to smooch but the lady grasshopper is also concerned about her reputation.

[GuyBeardmane]

Also this.

 

[Vamped]

3 minutes ago, GuyBeardmane said:

It's a song about two grasshoppers who both want to smooch but the lady grasshopper is also concerned about her reputation.

and what the male grasshopper slipped in her drink so he could bust an insect nut 

 

that last part about busting an insect nut is the key piece 

[GuyBeardmane]

The female grasshopper is singing that part because she is using it as a reason not to leave.  Like "oh, this drink is potent.  Better stay here and sober up and if we smooch more oh well."  She even prompts the drink in her previous lyric "Well maybe just a half a drink more."

[Vamped]

13 minutes ago, GuyBeardmane said:

The female grasshopper is singing that part because she is using it as a reason not to leave.  Like "oh, this drink is potent.  Better stay here and sober up and if we smooch more oh well."  She even prompts the drink in her previous lyric "Well maybe just a half a drink more."

Except she says no all the way through the whole song 

I just looked up the lyrics right after that part to be sure. She never stops saying no. I think the issue is ....  the importance of consent. She's been drinking sure okay ... but she does say no .... so damn ... let that lady leave and go home.

 

 

I simply must go (but baby, it's cold outside)
The answer is no (but baby, it's cold outside)

Your welcome has been(how lucky that you dropped in)
So nice and warm (look out the window at this dawn)

My sister will be suspicious (gosh your lips look delicious)
My brother will be there at the door (waves upon the tropical shore)

My maiden aunts mind is vicious (gosh your lips are delicious)
But maybe just a cigarette more (never such a blizzard before)

I've gotta get home(but baby, you'd freeze out there)
Say lend me a coat(it's up to your knees out there)

You've really been grand (i thrill when you touch my hand)
But don't you see? (how can you do this thing to me?)

There's bound to be talk tomorrow (think of my lifelong sorrow)
At least there will be plenty implied (if you got pnuemonia and died)

I really can't stay (get over that old out)
Baby, it's cold
Baby, it's cold outside

[ghostrek]

3 hours ago, tsar4 said:

Never was a fan of the song, but seriously?

https://wgntv.com/2018/11/30/radio-station-stops-playing-baby-its-cold-outside-amid-me-too-movement/

well that nor really a Christmas song

[GuyBeardmane]

1 hour ago, Vamped said:

Except she says no all the way through the whole song 

I just looked up the lyrics right after that part to be sure. She never stops saying no. I think the issue is ....  the importance of consent. She's been drinking sure okay ... but she does say no .... so damn ... let that lady leave and go home.

 

 

I simply must go (but baby, it's cold outside)
The answer is no (but baby, it's cold outside)

Your welcome has been(how lucky that you dropped in)
So nice and warm (look out the window at this dawn)

My sister will be suspicious (gosh your lips look delicious)
My brother will be there at the door (waves upon the tropical shore)

My maiden aunts mind is vicious (gosh your lips are delicious)
But maybe just a cigarette more (never such a blizzard before)

I've gotta get home(but baby, you'd freeze out there)
Say lend me a coat(it's up to your knees out there)

You've really been grand (i thrill when you touch my hand)
But don't you see? (how can you do this thing to me?)

There's bound to be talk tomorrow (think of my lifelong sorrow)
At least there will be plenty implied (if you got pnuemonia and died)

I really can't stay (get over that old out)
Baby, it's cold
Baby, it's cold outside

I fully agree that consent is important, and the song can be interpreted as being date rapey, but that's not what was intended.

[tsar4]

8 minutes ago, GuyBeardmane said:

I fully agree that consent is important, and the song can be interpreted as being date rapey, but that's not what was intended.

I find the argument that this is "rapey" would depend upon how the woman really feels about the guy, just like the argument that "50 Shades..." would have been rapey if the guy wasn't a good-looking millionaire.

[rpgamer]

Good intentions don't absolve one of consequences.

[KimopoBotar]

1 hour ago, Vamped said:

Except she says no all the way through the whole song 

I just looked up the lyrics right after that part to be sure. She never stops saying no. I think the issue is ....  the importance of consent. She's been drinking sure okay ... but she does say no .... so damn ... let that lady leave and go home.

 

 

I simply must go (but baby, it's cold outside)
The answer is no (but baby, it's cold outside)

Your welcome has been(how lucky that you dropped in)
So nice and warm (look out the window at this dawn)

My sister will be suspicious (gosh your lips look delicious)
My brother will be there at the door (waves upon the tropical shore)

My maiden aunts mind is vicious (gosh your lips are delicious)
But maybe just a cigarette more (never such a blizzard before)

I've gotta get home(but baby, you'd freeze out there)
Say lend me a coat(it's up to your knees out there)

You've really been grand (i thrill when you touch my hand)
But don't you see? (how can you do this thing to me?)

There's bound to be talk tomorrow (think of my lifelong sorrow)
At least there will be plenty implied (if you got pnuemonia and died)

I really can't stay (get over that old out)
Baby, it's cold
Baby, it's cold outside

Even if the hypothetical womanin this song really does want to stay, it's not really good to promote this kind of thinking because in so many cases this WOULD be rape and I'm sure do many rapes have been characterized this way by the perps. 

If a station decides they don't want to play that song, i don't see a reason to be upset about it. And isn't this the whole idea behind a free market? 

[tsar4]

2 minutes ago, KimopoBotar said:

Even if the hypothetical womanin this song really does want to stay, it's not really good to promote this kind of thinking because in so many cases this WOULD be rape and I'm sure do many rapes have been characterized this way by the perps. 

If a station decides they don't want to play that song, i don't see a reason to be upset about it. And isn't this the whole idea behind a free market? 

Counter-argument for the song - everyone is assuming the guy just wants to get her into bed.  Sad that everybody's first thought leaps that way, it says more about them than the song.  All he ever says is her lips look...and are delicious.  Obviously, she is interested in the guy as well, or the lyrics would have said something about a knee to the groin.

[little_girl_lost]

 

relevant

 

[KimopoBotar]

41 minutes ago, tsar4 said:

Counter-argument for the song - everyone is assuming the guy just wants to get her into bed.  Sad that everybody's first thought leaps that way, it says more about them than the song.  All he ever says is her lips look...and are delicious.  Obviously, she is interested in the guy as well, or the lyrics would have said something about a knee to the groin.

"If she didn't want it she should have fought back" has probably also been said in defense of rapists in countless cases. 

I mean, I get it. It's probably not the way the song was intended, but it IS way too close to examples of rape for comfort. I get that you like the song and it may even be important to you, but a radio station has to think about all of its listeners, including impressionable young men who may not have someone able to explain the subtleties in the differences between rape and a woman playing hard to get. It also, and most importantly, has to think about it's listeners that may have been victims of rapes that look a lot like the scenarios depicted in the song. 

If your taste in music is more important to you than the well-being of those people, I'm sorry. But this is progress, like it or not. I would hope you'd be able to recognize the issues here. 

[tsar4]

You get it wrong, I'm not a fan of the song.  But this is not The Beatles "Run For Your Life" or Little Walter's "Boom Boom (Out Go The Lights)" either.  Is she saying, "Take me home right now!" or is she saying, "Convince me!".  I get the "No means No", and maybe that's the problem - she isn't saying "No!", she's saying "Well, this" or "Well, that".  Is there something wrong with just saying "No"?

Is it really "progress" to jump to the worst possible conclusion about what is being expressed?  Is the problem the attitudes then, or our attitudes now?  In a way, your argument that a song might affect the decisions of "impressionable young men" reeks of PMRC.

[KimopoBotar]

"No means no" is important, but most experts in the subject think the ideal is affirmative consent or "Yes means yes". It seems ridiculous, but you have to keep in mind that in many rape cases a woman may not feel safe saying no. There are too many situations that don't fit into the simple framework of "yes or no".

The problem is attitudes in both times. Like it or not, the situation in the song directlt mirrors countless actual rapes, again, even if the intention was otherwise, even if the attitude of time recognized the intention, and even if idea in the song is that he "convince her". This kind of mind set can very very often lead to rapes occurring. Hell, in some cases the guy might not even realize what's happening. If a guy thinks he's got to constantly push for sex and won't get affirmative consent, he won't realize he needs that, and a woman may fear angering her unwitting rapist. That's just one of a myriad of reasons we need to get away from this culture of agressive courtship. This song directly represents that culture. We can't just pretend that's ok. 

It's progress to recognize that the attitudes and mindsets of the past weren't always right or ethical, and even if they were held with good intentions they have had some extremely negative consequences. 

You're right about the "impressionable young man" thing. That still leaves listeners who might be victims of rape. And ultimately, anything that maintains the flaws of the mindsets of the past needs to be recognized for what it is, and not glorified. Hell, play it on the air, but acknowledge in the same breath what is wrong with the song. Or don't play it. This radio station made a responsible choice with that in mind and i see no problem with that. It's not as if the song was outlawed. 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by KimopoBotar

[tsar4]

For me, the argument that this is "rapey" reminds me of the joke about the woman that, on a camping trip with her family, decides to take a break and with a book in hand takes the boat out on the lake.  While she is on the lake, she looks up from her reading and sees a park ranger waving her to shore.  She paddles in and the ranger, seeing fishing equipment in the boat asks to see her fishing license.  She explains that she has no license, and was not fishing anyway, but reading.  He counters, "You have all the equipment" and starts writing up the citation.  She says, "Well, then I'm going to the cops to charge you with rape".  He stammers, "I never touched you!", to which she replies, "You have all the equipment!".

[TrigunBebop]

To be fair, the song is a bit rapey.

[KimopoBotar]

.... What? 

[tsar4]

5 minutes ago, KimopoBotar said:

.... What? 

Seeing something that isn't necessarily there.  Maybe he just likes spending time with this particular woman and has no malicious intent.  Maybe he has that intent.  I guess I'm just an optimist that wants to believe in the best in people, despite my own personal experience.

[KimopoBotar]

1 hour ago, tsar4 said:

Seeing something that isn't necessarily there.  Maybe he just likes spending time with this particular woman and has no malicious intent.  Maybe he has that intent.  I guess I'm just an optimist that wants to believe in the best in people, despite my own personal experience.

Right. None of that matters. Even if every possible aspect of the song lines up in the positive, as I'm sure the song writers intended, the song still depicts a scenario that resembles countless real life rapes. In fact, seeing it in the positive light makes it worse because it condones a culture in which men are supposed to aggressively pursue women. 

[tsar4]

42 minutes ago, KimopoBotar said:

Right. None of that matters. Even if every possible aspect of the song lines up in the positive, as I'm sure the song writers intended, the song still depicts a scenario that resembles countless real life rapes. In fact, seeing it in the positive light makes it worse because it condones a culture in which men are supposed to aggressively pursue women. 

I think you're reading me wrong.  I'm still not advocating pulling the song.  You don't like what someone plays, don't listen to that station.

[KimopoBotar]

1 hour ago, tsar4 said:

I think you're reading me wrong.  I'm still not advocating pulling the song.  You don't like what someone plays, don't listen to that station.

That's exactly why the station got rid of the song: they don't want people doing just that. The free market still works sometimes. 

[tsar4]

Too bad it didn't in this case.

[KimopoBotar]

4 hours ago, tsar4 said:

Too bad it didn't in this case.

Just because it didn't work the way you wanted it to doesn't mean it didn't work. 

[tsar4]

3 hours ago, KimopoBotar said:

Just because it didn't work the way you wanted it to doesn't mean it didn't work. 

And just because the outcome was the way you wanted it doesn't mean it worked.

[Bad_Witch]

According to the article, the station didn't just pull the song because they felt it was rapey. They received a complaint about the song that asked for it's removal. That one complaint wasn't enough to pull the song, but after reviewing the lyrics, the station posted a poll asking it's listeners to vote. The majority of listeners voted for the song to be removed.

That's the free market+democracy at work. You can't get more American than that.

About the song itself, it isn't a Christmas song. There is no mention of Christmas at all. It's a winter song about two people stuck in a snow storm/blizzard. Why so many stations drag it out at Christmas, and artists use it on their Christmas albums, is mind-boggling.

Even the original meaning is about something stupid in society at the time. The best take away is the the woman is trying to find a way to save her reputation, because staying at her boyfriends for the night, IN THE MIDDLE OF A SNOW STORM/BLIZZARD, might cause some people to think she's a loose woman. The man makes a point of stating she might die. The snow has really piled up, and the woman is torn between staying, in the safety of a house, and leaving, braving the storm. It's a stupid song born from stupid ideologies.

[Vodkajellyshot]

On 12/1/2018 at 3:46 AM, Vamped said:

>.>

well I mean .... its a song about a possible date rape 

 

I didn't catch the part where the woman goes .... "what did you put in this drink?"  until like 3 years ago and I was like .... wait what?

looking in your big brown eye .. s

[cyberbully]

18 hours ago, KimopoBotar said:

Just because it didn't work the way you wanted it to doesn't mean it didn't work. 

You have to understand Tsar is from that Packard era....He may even be a bit older than pacman.  Anything changing is an affront to their archaic ideology.....Tsar just has more tact and doesn't suffer from tourettes. 

[tsar4]

[SwimModSponges]

Lol, he just went full-on boomer Facebook meme post.

[KimopoBotar]

2 hours ago, tsar4 said:

You're better than this. 

[tsar4]

8 minutes ago, KimopoBotar said:

You're better than this. 

If that's supposed to be a biting retort, you missed the mark.  Even though the writer was being sarcastic, I can actually see someone saying, "They're right" on some of these and demanding they be taken out of rotation.

[rpgamer]

See: Slippery Slope fallacy.

[discolé monade]

'neptune's daughter' ~ 1949

watch it...then we'll talk. 

the song by itself is...well...a little creepy. but within the parameters of the movie itself, the plot, and the whole 'wackiness'

of the characters...it's a perfectly legit song, for the 'cat and mouse' antics throughout the whole film

and this is just yet, another absurd 'omg my delicate feelings' 

[Still Me]

This is dumb....

[SwimModSponges]

Another one I'm calling "crisis actors" on.

I haven't heard anywhere near the complaining about this song as much as the complaining I've heard about the complaining about this song.

[KimopoBotar]

On 12/8/2018 at 9:53 AM, tsar4 said:

If that's supposed to be a biting retort, you missed the mark.  Even though the writer was being sarcastic, I can actually see someone saying, "They're right" on some of these and demanding they be taken out of rotation.

Who cares? People demand things all the time. Usually they get ignored. Sometimes people recognize the issues behind certain cultural touchstones that should not be such, and we move forward by no longer glorifying things that should not glorified. It's not a big deal. I know it's scary because things change and culture you recognized fades, but that happens with or without progress. Inevitably all the things you believe or care about will be forgotten and left to the domain of historians. That's just what cultures do over time. I don't know why it's so hard for so many to accept. 

And- You don't see the problems caused by a variety of mentalities held by folks in the past, because you never had to deal with the consequences from those mentalities. I guess i just thought you were less self centered than that.

Edited December 9, 2018 by KimopoBotar

[tsar4]

1 hour ago, KimopoBotar said:

Who cares? People demand things all the time. Usually they get ignored. Sometimes people recognize the issues behind certain cultural touchstones that should not be such, and we move forward by no longer glorifying things that should not glorified. It's not a big deal. I know it's scary because things change and culture you recognized fades, but that happens with or without progress. Inevitably all the things you believe or care about will be forgotten and left to the domain of historians. That's just what cultures do over time. I don't know why it's so hard for so many to accept. 

And- You don't see the problems caused by a variety of mentalities held by folks in the past, because you never had to deal with the consequences from those mentalities. I guess i just thought you were less self centered than that.

I'm not sure if it's a case of you and those seeing more than is there because you've ingested too much moldy rye bread or just a type of neo-"Tail Gunner Joe"-ism.  There are no Witches nor Commies.  Just a woman that wants to stay, but the societal morality of the time dictates that she shouldn't, so she hedges.  You want to be offended, you go right ahead, but it doesn't mean you're right. 

The guy that wrote the song did so for him & his wife to sing at parties and it was meant to sing the end as a duet, signifying agreement to stay, which she wanted to do all along.

[NaBarney]

He really went full ass boomer

[scoobdog]

On 11/30/2018 at 2:27 PM, KimopoBotar said:

"If she didn't want it she should have fought back" has probably also been said in defense of rapists in countless cases. 

I mean, I get it. It's probably not the way the song was intended, but it IS way too close to examples of rape for comfort. I get that you like the song and it may even be important to you, but a radio station has to think about all of its listeners, including impressionable young men who may not have someone able to explain the subtleties in the differences between rape and a woman playing hard to get. It also, and most importantly, has to think about it's listeners that may have been victims of rapes that look a lot like the scenarios depicted in the song. 

If your taste in music is more important to you than the well-being of those people, I'm sorry. But this is progress, like it or not. I would hope you'd be able to recognize the issues here. 

It's patently absurd to assume that young men would not understand the context of this song's duet and still understand the basic precepts of consent.  To suggest a song should be eliminated solely because its context isn't apparent is to suggest that men are not capable of determining acceptable context without prompting.

For the record, the song was not written for a movie, but it was premiered to the public as a song in Neptune's Daughter in which the duet (two pairs as it turns out) are establishing their mutual attraction for each other.  The movie as a product of its time tends to have its issues with portraying women, but the consent of the women to be courted by the men is not in question at any point.  Furthermore, there are no explicit expectations expressed by either side, even though the man is clearly hitting on the woman.  She doesn't refuse his advances because he also doesn't ask anything of her other than to stay longer; in such a situation, saying to no doesn't mean anything in particular.  This might be different if, in context, she had told him she wasn't interested in romance.  This is to say that if this exchange were to happen today, it wouldn't necessarily be considered overly aggressive in the absence of the man (1) asking the woman for something, (2) the man ignoring an explicit request to stop the flirting, or (3) a physical attempt to prevent the woman from leaving.

There is one caveat, of course, and it deserves special attention.  Women are almost always in a position of disadvantage when it comes to courtship because there will always be unreasonable obstacles to a woman being treated as equally competent.  That is clearly missing from this song, as it is from the movie (which was a romantic comedy) as a whole.  Even though Eve / Betty allude to the fact that they will suffer repercussions for being permissive with the men, it's understood that no such disapproval will in fact come to pass.  However, that the lines are even uttered still speaks to the existence of restrictive mores on female sexuality in a general sense, and its most certainly worth noting that both women are taking a risk by flirting with their handsome suitors.  Furthermore (and more critically), the song does not address the influence of male dominance in courtship, that is to say there is no indication whether or not the women are being forced to suppress their own intuition and feelings.  Ordinarily, this would be contextual as well, but a romantic comedy isn't likely to address the concept of a woman feeling social or other outside pressures to court a man.  That's not suggest the song is in any way apologizing for such, just that it's an obvious blind spot that can't be ignored even as it is outside the scope of the song's interactions.

Edited December 10, 2018 by scoobdog