I've got an Idea for Netflix's next historical piece.

[PhilosipherStoned]

It's going to be called Hitler starring Kanye West as Adolf Hitler. Clearly he's already been practicing for the role. Jokes aside....I don't think the main issue with the show is the racial heritage of Cleopatra just check out the audience rating. Review critics are chewing it up as well so I doubt it's just review bombing. 

https://www.dexerto.com/tv-movies/netflixs-queen-cleopatra-is-one-of-the-worst-reviewed-shows-ever-2145777/

Of course the racial backlish is probably the main reason it's trending on the internet. Netflix seems to have actually put the whole of modern day Egypt up in arms with this one. Some say they are more pissed about Jada Pinket Smith's decision to 'challenge historic anti-Black racism in the United States through revisionism of another racialized people’s own history without caring about how these people might react' rather than the color of the acresses skin...'

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/05/14/egypt-netflix-queen-cleopatra-race-history-heritage-imperialism-afrocentrism/

Either way any time an actress does a depiction of Cleopatra there's always a debate about her heritage and features. Personally I think all that kind of overshadows the reason why she's such a famous historical figure in the first place. Intelligence, personality, tactics, etc, but when the name of your series as a whole is "African Queens". Here's a thought. Maybe you should stick to featuring African Queens and this wont happen.  

Egyptian lawer Mahmoud Al Semary is suing Netflix claiming the historical inaccuracy violates the countries media rights. There's Dr. Zahi Hawass, one of countries top Egyptoligists and former minister of state for antiquities affairs... Statements form both are probably in the foreign policy link.

I don't really think the shows response to the backlash is that great...With satements like: "I remember my grandmother saying to me, ‘I don’t care what they tell you in school, Cleopatra was black.... and this gem: “Why shouldn’t Cleopatra be a melanated sister? And why do some people need Cleopatra to be white? Her proximity to whiteness seems to give her value, and for some Egyptians it seems to really matter.”

Either way don't hate the player hate the game right? I blame Jada Pinkett Smith if anyone. 🙃

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by PhilosipherStoned

[mthor]

Zahi Hawass is still alive? Yay!

 

[cyberbully]

1 hour ago, PhilosipherStoned said:

, but when the name of your series as a whole is "African Queens". Here's a thought. Maybe you should stick to featuring African Queens and this wont happen.  

 

 

 

Where the fuck do you think Egypt is?

[Insipid]

Uh oh, you done it now.

🍿🍿🍿

[scoobdog]

Who knew a post that started with Yeezy and Hitler in the same joke would somehow go downhill?

[André Toulon]

6 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

Who knew a post that started with Yeezy and Hitler in the same joke would somehow go downhill?

I wouldn't say it went downhill as the subject matter is still technically up for grabs. 

I do remember something from one of my Egyptian texts that would probably back what I "think" he's saying up....but he chooses his words poorly. I don't think the issue is if she was an African Queen...it's if she has African heritage.

Which again, let me get up and get one of these books...I can do a little digging rn

[scoobdog]

I mean, him not knowing how words work is part of his charm.

What fascinates me is that every discussion about this particular production inevitably centers on “But, she’s Greek!” while somehow ignoring the facts that Macedonian Greeks typically followed the lead of their king Alex and intermarried into their new conquered lands and Egyptian royalty was a mere six centuries from an unambiguously black dynasty.

[André Toulon]

So, like I thought. Cleopatra's rule was well after the Persian dominion of Egypt and after the Greek acquisition once they defeated the Persians under Alexander the Great. It's likely that not many people considered of African descent were still considered royalty.

Just based on the timeline, it's pretty sound to say she indeed had Greek ancestry....So the question is did she have any African ancestry....and I can find nothing in any of these books that even slightly backs that up. 

I think Egyptian officials may have a point...but as I stated in another discussion about this, the worse they'll do is have it pulled from the listing in Egypt...The show already exists, so not very likely Netflix is going to revamp it.

Unless we're gonna get her an ancestry.com account, I'm not sure who could "prove" she had African blood.

 

[André Toulon]

36 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

I mean, him not knowing how words work is part of his charm.

What fascinates me is that every discussion about this particular production inevitably centers on “But, she’s Greek!” while somehow ignoring the facts that Macedonian Greeks typically followed the lead of their king Alex and intermarried into their new conquered lands and Egyptian royalty was a mere six centuries from an unambiguously black dynasty.

No, I get that...there is no doubt they intermingled, but I'm just not so culturally invested in Cleopatra that I'm willing to make a claim I can't prove.

If they were trying to take Nefertiti from me, then I'd feel some kind of way but  deifying Cleopatra just isn't on my list of things to do.

Edited May 16, 2023 by André Toulon

[scoobdog]

1 hour ago, André Toulon said:

No, I get that...there is no doubt they intermingled, but I'm just not so culturally invested in Cleopatra that I'm willing to make a claim I can't prove.

If they were trying to take Nefertiti from me, then I'd feel some kind of way but  deifying Cleopatra just isn't on my list of things to do.

Naturally.  The absurdity is trying to put such importance on that era in Egyptian history.  The Ptolemaic dynasty was a restoration response to the preceding dilution by Persian invaders, a kind of low budget emulation of a vaunted past.  Cleopatra wasn’t trying to make Egypt Greek, she was using the Cult of the Pharaoh to maintain her tenuous hold on power.  It hardly matters what her actual ethnicity was because she was culturally an imposter.

[discolé monade]

7 hours ago, André Toulon said:

So, like I thought. Cleopatra's rule was well after the Persian dominion of Egypt and after the Greek acquisition once they defeated the Persians under Alexander the Great. It's likely that not many people considered of African descent were still considered royalty.

Just based on the timeline, it's pretty sound to say she indeed had Greek ancestry....So the question is did she have any African ancestry....and I can find nothing in any of these books that even slightly backs that up. 

I think Egyptian officials may have a point...but as I stated in another discussion about this, the worse they'll do is have it pulled from the listing in Egypt...The show already exists, so not very likely Netflix is going to revamp it.

Unless we're gonna get her an ancestry.com account, I'm not sure who could "prove" she had African blood.

 

from what i understand is that she is in fact, mostily greek, with some egyptian and middle eastern (persian and iranian)? how much of that if valid is also ?
 

now, claiming her as true african decent, is....reaching? i mean, but by placement only. 
 

[André Toulon]

30 minutes ago, discolé monade said:

from what i understand is that she is in fact, mostily greek, with some egyptian and middle eastern (persian and iranian)? how much of that if valid is also ?
 

now, claiming her as true african decent, is....reaching? i mean, but by placement only. 
 

It's also very likely that if she did have African blood and or Persian blood, it was removed from records to make her more deserving of the current ruler status. 

Like I said....I don't know...no one "knows" or it wouldn't be up for debate. 

[mthor]

The really bewildering thing is, why Cleopatra in the first place? Regardless of her personal ethnicity, she was a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty - colonialism, anyone? Why not Hatchepsut, or Nefertari, or Nefertiti, all strong and capable women who served on or behind the throne, and who were indisputably African? Or why not honor some of the queens we don't hear about, like Nandi (the mother of Shaka Zulu)? 

I don't know, the more I think about it, the more it seems that using Cleopatra and her name's recognition is more clickbait than an actual tribute.

Edited May 16, 2023 by mthor

[Raptorpat]

Cleopatra lived closer to present day than to the construction of the great pyramids at Giza 

[scoobdog]

1 hour ago, mthor said:

The really bewildering thing is, why Cleopatra in the first place? Regardless of her personal ethnicity, she was a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty - colonialism, anyone? Why not Hatchepsut, or Nefertari, or Nefertiti, all strong and capable women who served on or behind the throne, and who were indisputably African? Or why not honor some of the queens we don't hear about, like Nandi (the mother of Shaka Zulu)? 

I don't know, the more I think about it, the more it seems that using Cleopatra and her name's recognition is more clickbait than an actual tribute.

Both Hatshepsut and Nefertiti were more akin to Cleopatra as outsiders in that respect, and the former two we know even less about because there was an active attempt to erase them from history.

[cyberbully]

2 hours ago, mthor said:

The really bewildering thing is, why Cleopatra in the first place? Regardless of her personal ethnicity, she was a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty - colonialism, anyone? Why not Hatchepsut, or Nefertari, or Nefertiti, all strong and capable women who served on or behind the throne, and who were indisputably African? Or why not honor some of the queens we don't hear about, like Nandi (the mother of Shaka Zulu)? 

I don't know, the more I think about it, the more it seems that using Cleopatra and her name's recognition is more clickbait than an actual tribute.

Kinda my whole reason for not caring. Its like Natives suddenly being upset that thomas jefferson was white

[PhilosipherStoned]

18 hours ago, scoobdog said:

Who knew a post that started with Yeezy and Hitler in the same joke would somehow go downhill?

Hmm when i clicked on this thread first posts I see are you two with the 'oh no it's gone down hill shit'. 🙄 Gentlemen I suggest you put on your big boy pants because I have to tell you that you're not only fucking wrong, but epically so.. My post WAS ABOUT an ongoing downhill situation though so if you expected me to think it would go uphill here...Hmm..

IIdk what to say that. Let me look at some other responses and see if I really give a shit....

[scoobdog]

7 minutes ago, PhilosipherStoned said:

Hmm when i clicked on this thread first posts I see are you two with the 'oh no it's gone down hill shit'. 🙄 Gentlemen I suggest you put on your big boy pants because I have to tell you that you're not only fucking wrong, but epically so.. My post WAS ABOUT an ongoing downhill situation though so if you expected me to think it would go uphill here...Hmm..

IIdk what to say that. Let me look at some other responses and see if I really give a shit....

Oh cool.  So glad you could respond before reading the next three or four posts.

[PhilosipherStoned]

5 hours ago, scoobdog said:

Both Hatshepsut and Nefertiti were more akin to Cleopatra as outsiders in that respect, and the former two we know even less about because there was an active attempt to erase them from history.

That's fucking bullshit the only part of cleopatra's life that historians havent confirmed in one form or another IS her mothers heritage. Which literally no career scholars, historians or any expert opinion on the subject agree it's likely her mother was African.. Of course there is some mystery around Cleopatra so why not make her black right? That is afrocentic just by definition. I agree with that. My point still stands because her complexion doesnt really matter. Either way it's just she wasn't an African queen.

I have nothing against African Queens either, and I don't think any of the historians involved do. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by PhilosipherStoned

[scoobdog]

What do you mean by "African Queen" then?

[PhilosipherStoned]

Just now, scoobdog said:

What do you mean by "African Queen" then?

Ancient Egypt as a political state isn't what it is today Scoob... Even today the borders drawn may make most of it sit on the African continent, but don't forget there's some in the Asian continent too... Does that make Cleopatra an Asian queen? 🙄 

Do I need this robot saying thousands of years ago? Here it is just for fun. When Greeks, Macedonian...fuck. You have your own computer and the internet give yourself your own history lesson please... 

I mean no disrespect.. I'm only trying to prove my point, and why I think Egyptians in the country have a right to feel that way about american hollywood fucking with one of their historical figures.. 

Either way here's this.,,

THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO! 

Every historian realizes political lines were drawn different. Depending on the era some that exist today didn't even exist in her lifetime. 

 

 

[stilgar]

Fuck, you are as thick as pig shit. 

[PhilosipherStoned]

1 minute ago, stilgar said:

Fuck, you are as thick as pig shit. 

Stilgar this isn't the time for self reflection. 

[PhilosipherStoned]

He brings up a good point though that I may need to double down on.. I don't watch this series African Queens I mean believe me I've seen excerpts at this point from evey kind of media out there, but there was a reason I ended my OP with a tweet from the actress playing Cleo getting fed up with hate mail.. 

Cleopatra hasn't really ever been 'holistically' or accurately depicted has she. So if the show runners went with more of an honest....'Of course this African Queens so yeah we did it here's an african depiction'..  I do think some of this could've been avoided. I want to see Adele's depiction now after looking into this as well I'm sure as an actor she's gotta have something going for the role. You guys hate people taking a neutral response to drama, but hey that's usually what I do. 

I'm gonna have to agree with most of modern day Egypt and every historian I've heard on the fact that Cleopatra was in no way shape or form  'a melanated sister for cause' if you will though lol.. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by PhilosipherStoned

[André Toulon]

Wow, it's amazing you can agree with someone and they still lose their shit.

For a neutral stance, he certainly is trying to sell this derisive, ironic urban patois...

 

[André Toulon]

None of the areas of historical importance are in Asia. Only a small piece of Egypt is in Asia and no amount of imaginary border shuffling changes that.

[naraku360]

[MasqueradeOverture]

On 5/16/2023 at 12:03 AM, scoobdog said:

Who knew a post that started with Yeezy and Hitler in the same joke would somehow go downhill?

And inaccurate because after the 21 Jump Street fiasco, one of these days Ye's gonna watch BEAU IS AFRAID and announce his public bris at MSG.

[Top Gun]

The only thing I know for sure about Cleopatra is that she's comin' atcha.

[discolé monade]

other interesting people, i'd much rather watch something about. 

hannie schaft and her trio

robert smalls

henritta lacks

[Insipid]

16 hours ago, André Toulon said:

None of the areas of historical importance are in Asia. Only a small piece of Egypt is in Asia and no amount of imaginary border shuffling changes that.

Well akchually, there's Mt. Sinai and the story of Moses, particularly the part where he receives the Ten Commandments.

[André Toulon]

39 minutes ago, Insipid said:

Well akchually, there's Mt. Sinai and the story of Moses, particularly the part where he receives the Ten Commandments.

Lmfao.

I see ya Benji. I forget, was this before or after he walked across the  sea floor of a split body of water.

[1pooh4u]

Here’s an article about some of her ancestry but idk how accurate it is

All I know is some scholars say she was beautiful and others say that she really wasn’t.  I think it’s widely believed that she was brilliant. A rarity because her line or family tree was more a flagpole than a tree. A lot of bro sis marriage 😬

https://www.thoughtco.com/was-cleopatra-black-biography-3528680

[mthor]

On 5/16/2023 at 1:36 PM, scoobdog said:

Both Hatshepsut and Nefertiti were more akin to Cleopatra as outsiders in that respect, and the former two we know even less about because there was an active attempt to erase them from history.

Any woman who wielded power usually reserved for men before about 1950 was an outsider. What's your point?

[scoobdog]

1 hour ago, mthor said:

Any woman who wielded power usually reserved for men before about 1950 was an outsider. What's your point?

You can’t say either Hatshepsut or Nefertiti was any stronger than Cleopatra because they don’t exist beyond their names.  We probably know more about Cleopatra than we do about either of them, so why is either more compelling than she is?

[Insipid]

5 hours ago, André Toulon said:

Lmfao.

I see ya Benji. I forget, was this before or after he walked across the  sea floor of a split body of water.

It just so happens to be the sea that separates the "Asian" part of Egypt from the African part, lawl

Whether or not you believe the story, the fact of the matter is that Moses is an important prophet in three major religions. Also, I just learned that the Sinai Peninsula has been claimed by Egypt since antiquity. Stoned can't claim shifting geopolitics, fitting more into your argument. That was really stupid on his part, as I never heard anyone even jokingly saying Cleopatra was Asian. That's like saying Putin is Asian because you know enough about geography that most of Russia is in Asia.

[naraku360]

This thread be like

 

[mthor]

23 hours ago, scoobdog said:

You can’t say either Hatshepsut or Nefertiti was any stronger than Cleopatra because they don’t exist beyond their names.  We probably know more about Cleopatra than we do about either of them, so why is either more compelling than she is?

Don't move the goalposts. I said that they were strong, capable, and from indisputably African dynasties, not that they were stronger than Cleopatra.

I can't disagree with very little being known about Nefertiti, although it's becoming more accepted that she ruled as pharaoh for a brief time after Ankhenaten. Hatshepsut, however, is better documented (if you're honestly interested, I can send you some links, but I'm on the phone right now, and sometimes have problems.)

Not that it may matter - Cleopatra is the second queen in this series. The first was Nzinga Mbande, queen of Ndongo and Matamba (present day Angola). The critical reviews were much more positive, but I couldn't help notice a viewer's review on Rotten Tomatoes. The writer stated that he, as a native Angolan, found the production inaccurate and disrespectful...Wonder what'll happen with queen number 3?

[scoobdog]

1 hour ago, mthor said:

Don't move the goalposts. I said that they were strong, capable, and from indisputably African dynasties, not that they were stronger than Cleopatra.

I can't disagree with very little being known about Nefertiti, although it's becoming more accepted that she ruled as pharaoh for a brief time after Ankhenaten. Hatshepsut, however, is better documented (if you're honestly interested, I can send you some links, but I'm on the phone right now, and sometimes have problems.)

Not that it may matter - Cleopatra is the second queen in this series. The first was Nzinga Mbande, queen of Ndongo and Matamba (present day Angola). The critical reviews were much more positive, but I couldn't help notice a viewer's review on Rotten Tomatoes. The writer stated that he, as a native Angolan, found the production inaccurate and disrespectful...Wonder what'll happen with queen number 3?

You’re taking the wrong thing from what I said.  You’re saying they were more worthy of a biopic than Cleopatra and I’m saying you can’t possibly determine that based on what is actually known about them.  That’s not to say they’re fascinating women simply based on the fact they definitively ruled Egypt, nor is it a suggestion you can’t prefer a highly conjectured narrative about either of them versus a better documented narrative by the much later queen.  In the context of this thread, it makes far more sense to hypothesize about Cleopatras racial identity given we have a greater subset of anecdotal accounts to go with images of her that could infer who she was than it does to two women who we have only generic hieroglyphics and a bust.

[mthor]

2 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

You’re taking the wrong thing from what I said.  You’re saying they were more worthy of a biopic than Cleopatra and I’m saying you can’t possibly determine that based on what is actually known about them.  That’s not to say they’re fascinating women simply based on the fact they definitively ruled Egypt, nor is it a suggestion you can’t prefer a highly conjectured narrative about either of them versus a better documented narrative by the much later queen.  In the context of this thread, it makes far more sense to hypothesize about Cleopatras racial identity given we have a greater subset of anecdotal accounts to go with images of her that could infer who she was than it does to two women who we have only generic hieroglyphics and a bust.

The majority of which anecdotes were written by her enemies, the founders of spin...ever read Suetonius?

But enough of Cleopatra - like I said, I'm waiting to see the take on queen three. 

[GunStarHero]

Makes me think about Yasuke, the real-life, black samurai that served under Oda Nobunaga for a short time. Netflix greenlights a show about him, and it winds up being one of the most mediocre anime I have ever watched and had almost nothing to do with Yasuke. Like it's about some magical bullshit and there's some Russian bear woman and a little girl that's the real main character and is learning how to use her magic powers and they have mechs and it's all just so fucking stupid. 

In truth, very little is known about Yasuke, and had he not gotten the attention of Nobunaga, we likely would have never heard of him. While that leaves his life as being basically a giant, blank canvas, I can't accept that this mid tier ass anime is what we got from that. I'd rather they have Yasuke stay in the country after Nobunaga dies and have him link up with Tokugawa and Toyotomi to get revenge for Akechi's betrayal that led to Nobunaga's death. Let Yasuke stay with the unifiers of Japan all the way up until Sekigahara and witness the unification of Japan. Russian bear women? Mechs? Magical little Mary Sue girls? Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?? What a fucking waste. 

[André Toulon]

I learned of Yasuke from Nioh years ago....then he started popping up on social media, and of course the shit show began...

I had no clue Netflix dug their claws into it...I don't even think I would have watched it I had known.

Edited May 21, 2023 by André Toulon

[discolé monade]

netflix did claim 'loosely based' but, GSH is correct. i hadn't made my way to it, i guess i won't. 

[GunStarHero]

9 hours ago, André Toulon said:

I learned of Yasuke from Nioh years ago....then he started popping up on social media, and of course the shit show began...

I had no clue Netflix dige their claws into it...I don't even think I would have watched it I had known.

You should pass on ever watching it tbh. Even without Yasuke, it's just such a middling experience at best. 

4 hours ago, discolé monade said:

netflix did claim 'loosely based' but, GSH is correct. i hadn't made my way to it, i guess i won't. 

It was probably someone's spec script that they slapped Yasuke's name on to get it produced. Happens all the time. They need a script post haste and someone mad scientist on it and slaps whatever IP or whatever onto it and off they go into production. Another great, recent example of this is the Halo show. Fuck all to do with the games or books. Show runner seemed proud they didn't even play or read them. End product becomes this weirdly soulless product with no real identity. If you were a fan before or you were familiar with whomever or whatever it was about, you end up disappointed, and if you're coming in fresh, it's background noise you forget right after you watch it. Junk food you only buy once kinda deal.