Ask a non-Jewish person of a certain age what Passover is

[Icarus27k]

And there's a good chance they think of the Rugrats Passover special. 

[discolé monade]

dude

[Icarus27k]

  On 4/21/2024 at 12:50 AM, discolé monade said:

dude

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It's uncanny. Try it. Ask them, "Are you thinking of Rugrats right now?" 

[discolé monade]

it's not. 

no and no. 

what a weird post.

[Raptorpat]

To be fair, I think that was my first exposure to passover as a kid. I think it was one of the first depictions of passover in mainstream kids TV.

It's kind of an exception to how bullshit one-sided our culture can be. The moment things branch out to acknowledge our diversity, the people who enjoyed the one-sided culture start complaining about 'happy holidays' and 'the war on christmas' and other false victimizations.

[mthor]

Damn, I am of a different generation - my first exposure to Passover was the All of a Kind Family books 

[Icarus27k]

  On 4/21/2024 at 3:02 AM, Raptorpat said:

To be fair, I think that was my first exposure to passover as a kid. I think it was one of the first depictions of passover in mainstream kids TV.

 

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Yeah, this was kind of my point. There's a second Rugrats special about Hannukkah, and these collectively were my first popular culture exposure to Jewish religious ceremonies.

[André Toulon]

.....

Idk, I've always heard Easter called  Passover.....For some reason it was call that in Southern Baptist (maybe black?) churches. It wasn't until sometime in Jr high that I found out there was a difference...and later still that it was Jewish....like I really want to say it was from Seinfeld or some other live action offering that I discovered that part.

It definitely wasn't Rugrats because I hated rugrats

[scoobdog]

As Buddy alluded, Passover is intrinsically connected to Christian Easter traditions, specifically the “Passion of Christ” sequence, so it’s far more likely that earliest exposure to the religious festival would come from more universal pop cultural references like, say, DaVinci’s The Last Supper.  Judaism has never secularized its religious practices in the way that Christianity has, nonetheless through the prism of Christianity it gets nearly as much exposure.

[Doom Metal Alchemist]

The origin of passover is in the old testament, isn't it? I remember learning about it in my Christian private school. Seems more Christians would know about it in the same sense as the flood, Moses, etc.

 

[1pooh4u]

  On 4/21/2024 at 5:51 AM, scoobdog said:

As Buddy alluded, Passover is intrinsically connected to Christian Easter traditions, specifically the “Passion of Christ” sequence, so it’s far more likely that earliest exposure to the religious festival would come from more universal pop cultural references like, say, DaVinci’s The Last Supper.  Judaism has never secularized its religious practices in the way that Christianity has, nonetheless through the prism of Christianity it gets nearly as much exposure.

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When you say “Passover is intrinsically connected to Christian Easter traditions”  what do you mean by that? 

[scoobdog]

  On 4/21/2024 at 6:29 AM, 1pooh4u said:

When you say “Passover is intrinsically connected to Christian Easter traditions”  what do you mean by that? 

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 It's a nicer way of saying Christians appropriated Jewish religious traditions as part of their own.  It isn't inherently bad:  In part, it's a result of Jesus being a Jew who was explicitly practicing these traditions while seeking to reform Judaism; in part it reflects the universality of human behavior.  But, in part it is also a blatant attempt to erase Jewish tradition by making the ritual a Christian one.

[MasqueradeOverture]

  On 4/21/2024 at 12:47 AM, Icarus27k said:

And there's a good chance they think of the Rugrats Passover special. 

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This or The Prince of Egypt would be the correct answer in my case, yes.

[discolé monade]

every year, for I don't know HOW long, a child could count on a few things on t.v.:

 

 Rudolph/Santa/frosty claymation/ cartoon during the obvious season

the wizard of oz - that USUALLY came on after Christmas.

and the ten commandments = 3 hours, with 1 hour going past bedtime. this was my intro to passover. the scene was scary. the blood on the doors, and the green mist that went through the lands of egypt, and killed the 1st born.  **which would come on during easter,**

 

Edited April 21, 2024 by discolé monade
forgot something

[Doom Metal Alchemist]

  On 4/21/2024 at 1:59 PM, discolé monade said:

every year, for I don't know HOW long, a child could count on a few things on t.v.:

 

 Rudolph/Santa/frosty claymation/ cartoon during the obvious season

the wizard of oz - that USUALLY came on after Christmas.

and the ten commandments = 3 hours, with 1 hour going past bedtime. this was my intro to passover. the scene was scary. the blood on the doors, and the green mist that went through the lands of egypt, and killed the 1st born.  **which would come on during easter,**

 

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You just made me remember this is the subject of Metallica's Creeping Death.

[discolé monade]

  On 4/21/2024 at 2:02 PM, Doom Metal Alchemist said:

You just made me remember this is the subject of Metallica's Creeping Death.

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well...you do live up to your 'name'  XD

[Icarus27k]

  On 4/21/2024 at 1:59 PM, discolé monade said:

every year, for I don't know HOW long, a child could count on a few things on t.v.:

 

 Rudolph/Santa/frosty claymation/ cartoon during the obvious season

the wizard of oz - that USUALLY came on after Christmas.

and the ten commandments = 3 hours, with 1 hour going past bedtime. this was my intro to passover. the scene was scary. the blood on the doors, and the green mist that went through the lands of egypt, and killed the 1st born.  **which would come on during easter,**

 

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Oh, I see. For you, Passover was something a lot more serious. Scary even. 

[discolé monade]

  On 4/21/2024 at 2:16 PM, Icarus27k said:

 

Oh, I see. For you, Passover was something a lot more serious. Scary even. 

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no. passover means nothing to me, other than, when i was a kid, and first saw that scene, it's scared me. 

it's great reading material. that story, in the bible.

but the bible is just a book, after all. a grand journal, that was mostly salvaged, mostly, and began with a man named moses, that wrote about the trials and tribulations of his people. later,  about 100 years later, the story, was continued with only 30 years missing after jesus birth, and another 40 or so afterwards. 

after many battles for lands, and power, that book, was rewritten by the 'winners', so the great tales were written to suit the needs of the powerful, to control the wea. 

 

 i'm curious, have you ever read the entire bible?

once you get through genesis, it's a great read. but it's mostly fiction. i guess a new genre should be created : rel-fi?

 

[1pooh4u]

  On 4/21/2024 at 8:26 AM, scoobdog said:

 It's a nicer way of saying Christians appropriated Jewish religious traditions as part of their own.  It isn't inherently bad:  In part, it's a result of Jesus being a Jew who was explicitly practicing these traditions while seeking to reform Judaism; in part it reflects the universality of human behavior.  But, in part it is also a blatant attempt to erase Jewish tradition by making the ritual a Christian one.

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This sounds more like what happened because “intrinsic” to me sounds like something that’s naturally connected or inseparable from each other when Christians, as you said, acknowledge that the last supper probably was a Seder, but beyond that there’s no connection to Judaism at all.   People who do Christian “Passover” don’t even know it’s original source

(I’m connecting this back to the topic of the thread rn) so Ikarus is pretty correct to say “non Jewish people of a certain age got their first exposure to Passover being a Jewish holiday from Rugrats” 😆

[Raptorpat]

  On 4/21/2024 at 8:26 AM, scoobdog said:

It's a nicer way of saying Christians appropriated Jewish religious traditions as part of their own.

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I thought Easter appropriated a pagan fertility holiday, with the bunnies and the eggs etc.

[1pooh4u]

  On 4/21/2024 at 2:02 PM, Doom Metal Alchemist said:

You just made me remember this is the subject of Metallica's Creeping Death.

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It always cmtfu when someone just realizes “Creeping Death” is about Passover plagues.  Every Jewish fan plays Creeping Death at their Seder. Passover is metal af 😆

[1pooh4u]

  On 4/21/2024 at 3:08 PM, Raptorpat said:

I thought Easter appropriated a pagan fertility holiday, with the bunnies and the eggs etc.

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No one knows really. The egg could be a call back to the egg on a Seder plate that symbolizes birth and renewal. The hunt possibly a callback to hiding the “afikomen” that children are sent to find in order to start the Passover meal. Idk if there is any religious significance to it though other than to keep kids engaged.  The kid that finds it gets a special treat of some sort. 

[scoobdog]

  On 4/21/2024 at 2:55 PM, 1pooh4u said:

This sounds more like what happened because “intrinsic” to me sounds like something that’s naturally connected or inseparable from each other when Christians, as you said, acknowledge that the last supper probably was a Seder, but beyond that there’s no connection to Judaism at all.   People who do Christian “Passover” don’t even know it’s original source

(I’m connecting this back to the topic of the thread rn) so Ikarus is pretty correct to say “non Jewish people of a certain age got their first exposure to Passover being a Jewish holiday from Rugrats” 😆

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I hadn’t really intended to deconstruct Iky’s statement that way, but I think you framed it perfectly.  He’s most certainly correct in that the symbolism within a seder would be lost on a generation of non-Jewish people were it not for Rugrats.  It’s a religious practice most would never see.

[scoobdog]

  On 4/21/2024 at 3:08 PM, Raptorpat said:

I thought Easter appropriated a pagan fertility holiday, with the bunnies and the eggs etc.

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I don’t think it actually did.  You learn more as world faith traditions are more openly discussed, but it’s important to remember that Easter is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, Christian rituals… meaning it predates the influence of the Romans.  It would have had its roots in Jewish symbolism, even if later non-Jewish adherents might make parallels to Roman and pagan practices.

[Raptorpat]

ok so what about the bunny

[André Toulon]

  On 4/21/2024 at 2:55 PM, 1pooh4u said:

People who do Christian “Passover” don’t even know it’s original source

 😆

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The way I remember it (and we're talking about preteen Buddy, because I mostly became a Christmas church goer once I could no longer be forced to go) there was Easter, then like Wednesday we had church again at like 7 pm and you couldn't eat all day until after church.

I only remember not eating ONCE. After that, I remember mama saying you could have bread and water but nothing else, and I was like fuck it, might as well not eat...wtf I want bread and water for.

Then suddenly, I don't remember it ever being brought up again...the not eating thing...They still had the night church.

All that to say, this is probably why I just don't take religion seriously at all....when you just keep changing the rules to fit your arbitrary whims, why even bother.

I'm not saying all faiths are like that, but Southern Baptism is some fraudulent bullshit.

Edited April 21, 2024 by André Toulon

[mthor]

  On 4/21/2024 at 5:46 PM, Raptorpat said:

ok so what about the bunny

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They were an animal sacred to Eostre, a pagan goddess of fertility, whose major festival was held in the spring. When converting western Europe, the church fathers often incorporated local myth into church tradition to make acceptance of the faith easier.

[Raptorpat]

yeah that's what i thought, minus all the helpful details

[mthor]

  On 4/21/2024 at 6:22 PM, Raptorpat said:

yeah that's what i thought, minus all the helpful details

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Count your blessings - I edited that before I posted it.

[tsar4]

  On 4/21/2024 at 3:36 AM, mthor said:

Damn, I am of a different generation - my first exposure to Passover was the All of a Kind Family books 

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DeMille's "The Ten Commandments" (Charlton Heston) for me, until I became friends with a Jewish kid at school #7.

[Top Gun]

We learned about Passover back in Catholic grade school and spent a few days watching The Ten Commandments. We even had a fake Seder re-enactment to show what it's like. I think the powers that be eventually put the kibosh on doing that because, oh hey, parroting the religious practices of another group is kind of a bad look.

I still watch the ABC broadcast of the movie most years, though. Kicks ass.

[scoobdog]

  On 4/21/2024 at 5:46 PM, Raptorpat said:

ok so what about the bunny

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The Easter Bunny is an entirely secular institution that has no practical connection to the religious festivals of Passover, Christian Easter, or the Pagan holiday of the same name.  The holiday was originally Pascha - “Ressurection Sunday” -  and the core rituals were in place before the pagan name was co-opted.

FWIW… this isn’t to suggest that all Christianity’s major holidays have no basis in Pagan religion.  As opposed to Easter, Christmas was most likely built around a couple of Pagan, Roman holidays for the express purpose you described.  The difference is that there isn’t a Jewish analog for the autumnal solstice that could be used as a basis for Jesus’ divine origin myth.

[ghostrek]

  On 4/21/2024 at 12:47 AM, Icarus27k said:

And there's a good chance they think of the Rugrats Passover special. 

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Well I seen them it's a good explanation why someone so breaks a holiday. 

Mean for children I mean. And therefore showing them why someone celebrates a holiday is one way to fight against prejudice

[1pooh4u]

Let’s be real, the Easter Bunny is just to scare the shit out of children at clothing stores and malls because parents think it’s funny to terrorize their children. 
 

I’m jk but now I’m wondering how much judaism ripped stuff from pagans. That religion is way older. 

[1pooh4u]

  On 4/21/2024 at 6:04 PM, André Toulon said:

The way I remember it (and we're talking about preteen Buddy, because I mostly became a Christmas church goer once I could no longer be forced to go) there was Easter, then like Wednesday we had church again at like 7 pm and you couldn't eat all day until after church.

I only remember not eating ONCE. After that, I remember mama saying you could have bread and water but nothing else, and I was like fuck it, might as well not eat...wtf I want bread and water for.

Then suddenly, I don't remember it ever being brought up again...the not eating thing...They still had the night church.

All that to say, this is probably why I just don't take religion seriously at all....when you just keep changing the rules to fit your arbitrary whims, why even bother.

I'm not saying all faiths are like that, but Southern Baptism is some fraudulent bullshit.

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All religions are bullshit and have made changes whenever they needed more people to join them.  

[mthor]

  On 4/22/2024 at 12:39 AM, 1pooh4u said:

Let’s be real, the Easter Bunny is just to scare the shit out of children at clothing stores and malls because parents think it’s funny to terrorize their children.

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So, the Easter Bunny=Santa Claus?

[Mode 7]

[1pooh4u]

  On 4/22/2024 at 12:54 AM, mthor said:

So, the Easter Bunny=Santa Claus?

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Santa is slightly less scary to kids. I see way less little guys crying on Santa’s lap than the Easter Bunny, but basically, yeah 😆

[Raptorpat]

  On 4/22/2024 at 12:39 AM, 1pooh4u said:

Let’s be real, the Easter Bunny is just to scare the shit out of children

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this was the first easter the baby was fully cognizant of as it was coming up and happening. she found her easter basket in her room while i was on the toilet and was shouting through the door at everything she was finding in it, but then later in the day she wanted to go back to the basket and made me hold her hand because she was afraid the easter bunny was still in her room somewhere.

[1pooh4u]

  On 4/22/2024 at 1:27 AM, Raptorpat said:

this was the first easter the baby was fully cognizant of as it was coming up and happening. she found her easter basket in her room while i was on the toilet and was shouting through the door at everything she was finding in it, but then later in the day she wanted to go back to the basket and made me hold her hand because she was afraid the easter bunny was still in her room somewhere.

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Daaw that’s so cute. Honestly what were adults thinking, that a person in a huge bunny suit would be fun for children. Especially this

 

 

[mthor]

  On 4/22/2024 at 1:42 AM, 1pooh4u said:

Daaw that’s so cute. Honestly what were adults thinking, that a person in a huge bunny suit would be fun for children. Especially this

 

 

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Now I'm scared of the Easter Bunny.

[scoobdog]

  On 4/22/2024 at 12:39 AM, 1pooh4u said:

…now I’m wondering how much judaism ripped stuff from pagans. That religion is way older. 

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In what sense?  Some of the most well know stories in the Torah borrows heavily or is a retelling of myths from older cultures in the Asia Minor region.  That’s not an indication that Judaism stole older myths but it is evidence that Judaism could be a successor religion and an indication that Jews themselves are ethnically descendent from older defunct cultures.

That is all to say that Jews probably wouldn’t have borrowed from a European culture when there were contemporary Stone Age cultures in the area they succeeded.

[discolé monade]

  On 4/22/2024 at 12:39 AM, 1pooh4u said:

Let’s be real, the Easter Bunny is just to scare the shit out of children at clothing stores and malls because parents think it’s funny to terrorize their children. 
 

I’m jk but now I’m wondering how much judaism ripped stuff from pagans. That religion is way older. 

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so much. so very very much. and, most of those of different religions, (muslims, jews, pagans, et al) were forced to accept christianity. 

[1pooh4u]

  On 4/22/2024 at 6:26 AM, scoobdog said:

In what sense?  Some of the most well know stories in the Torah borrows heavily or is a retelling of myths from older cultures in the Asia Minor region.  That’s not an indication that Judaism stole older myths but it is evidence that Judaism could be a successor religion and an indication that Jews themselves are ethnically descendent from older defunct cultures.

That is all to say that Jews probably wouldn’t have borrowed from a European culture when there were contemporary Stone Age cultures in the area they succeeded.

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I’m using paganism as a catch all for polytheism and not anything to do with European practices because Judaism is not a religion that comes from anything European