Putin: "Stick to the timeline!"

[matrixman124]

14 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

It will always be a problem as a side effect of our hyper vigilance in fighting the Cold War, and our hyper enthusiastic embrace of globalization for profit, and our overreaction to the catastrophic results of the Holocaust. Hegemony is the by product of hubris, but our sins are not comparable to the Russians.

I mean I get why Nabs is upset with western hegemony. We fucked up a lot of countries. But my problem is him saying that the west's crimes somehow absolve Russia of their own. Which they don't.

[matrixman124]

1 minute ago, NewBluntsworth said:

Putin being interviewed, telling you in own words what he thinks of the US & Nazi-backed coup on his border...that doesn't interest you to hear...? I learned a lot from watching it I'll just say that. 

And yet nobody in the pro-west camp was interviewed. We only get the Russian point of view. Kinda one sided no?

[NewBluntsworth]

5 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

Then why do you keep trying to justify Putin invading and violating Ukraine's sovereignty?

Quote me, show me what you're talking about. What do you mean I'm justifying it? Because I don't subscribe to the "cancer-ridden imperialist death drive murderous psychosis" theory that seems so popular here ..? Bc I point out America played a BIG role in making it happen, and wanted it to happen?

"Violating Ukraine's sovereignty" expecting Russia to ignore the US-backed coup in Ukraine driving the foreign policy of that country's new govt away from Russia and toward the west... Just ignore that. Is that what America would do? ...why then would anyone ignore such a country/empire when it does so to them 

Edited September 20, 2022 by NewBluntsworth

[matrixman124]

Just now, NewBluntsworth said:

Quote me, show me what you're talking about. What do you mean I'm justifying it? Because I don't subscribe to the "cancer-ridden imperialist death drive murderous psychosis" theory that seems so popular here ..? Bc I point out America played a BIG role in making it happen, and wanted it to happen?

"Violating Ukraine's sovereignty" expecting them to ignore the US-backed coup in Ukraine driving the foreign policy of that country's new govt away from Russia and toward the west...

You keep justifying the invasion!!!!

[NewBluntsworth]

3 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

And yet nobody in the pro-west camp was interviewed. We only get the Russian point of view. Kinda one sided no?

We get that on IV drip

[NewBluntsworth]

5 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

But my problem is him saying that the west's crimes somehow absolve Russia of their own. Which they don't.

Where did I say this?

Just now, matrixman124 said:

You keep justifying the invasion!!!!

....ok let's take this slowly. 

How?

[matrixman124]

1 minute ago, NewBluntsworth said:

We get that on IV drip

I mean it's a very one sided documentary 

[matrixman124]

1 minute ago, NewBluntsworth said:

Where did I say this?

....ok let's take this slowly. 

How?

Okay let me ask this.

What is the point you are trying to make?

[NewBluntsworth]

"Russia should have just ignored all the provocations and then there wouldn't be a war" says the guy living in THE most endlessly provocative country that controls most of the entire world and violates other countries' sovereignty all the time. 

"They should have ignored the US-backed coup on their border that was pointedly aimed at further weakening Russia and strengthening the west, and just hoped and prayed that America doesn't continue fucking with it any further, forever..."

Does that sound reasonable to you? This isn't a reasonable standard, me pointing that out doesn't = "and therefore Russia is right and good for doing this big dumb war just like the American empire wanted" like I continue repeating that they were provoked and this was what America wanted...

 Why would I support or justify that?? "Hell yeah CIA cool war, thanks for making Putin go off epic style" just stop. 

[NewBluntsworth]

3 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

Okay let me ask this.

What is the point you are trying to make?

This war should end asap before it escalates and becomes intractable, and that includes the war that had already been going on there for 8 years btwn the anti-coup pro-Russian separatists in the east and the Nazis and assorted """ultra-nationalists""" that fight for the Ukrainian military.

Ukraine should cede Russian-controlled territory in the east to Russia (territory which has been Russian controlled since long before this year) and not allow America to steer the country into another years-long proxy war like what happened in Syria, because that would obviously be horrible because all these wars America whips up always are, as we are seeing now with this latest one in Ukraine. 

That's basically it, but everyone acts like that's giving Poland to Hitler or some such silly shit 

[matrixman124]

2 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

"Russia should have just ignored all the provocations and then there wouldn't be a war" says the guy living in THE most endlessly provocative country that controls most of the entire world and violates other countries' sovereignty all the time. 

"They should have ignored the US-backed coup on their border that was pointedly aimed at further weakening Russia and strengthening the west, and just hoped and prayed that America doesn't continue fucking with it any further, forever..."

Does that sound reasonable to you? This isn't a reasonable standard, me pointing that out doesn't = "and therefore Russia is right and good for doing this big dumb war just like the American empire wanted" like I continue repeating that they were provoked and this was what America wanted...

 Why would I support or justify that?? "Hell yeah CIA cool war, thanks for making Putin go off epic style" just stop. 

You are wording it in a way where my position is ridiculous. Ukraine wasn't added to NATO specifically to maintain a stalemate with Russia. Putin has jeopardized his entire legacy on this invasion because he thought he could grab Ukraine and use it as a buffer to the west without regards to Ukrainian sovereignty.

So yeah, Russia should have held the border like they always have and not done anything. Because the stalemate was fine. What the fuck was the annexation of Crimea if not its own provocation? You are framing this like the Russians are naive idiots when Putin has been the head honcho for decades without any dispute. You are just presenting the Russian side without any regard for the other end. I'm at least considering both sides and even then the idea of an invasion is still insane to me.

[matrixman124]

4 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

This war should end asap before it escalates and becomes intractable, and that includes the war that had already been going on there for 8 years btwn the anti-coup pro-Russian separatists in the east and the Nazis and assorted """ultra-nationalists""" that fight for the Ukrainian military.

Ukraine should cede Russian-controlled territory in the east to Russia (territory which has been Russian controlled since long before this year) and not allow America to steer the country into another years-long proxy war like what happened in Syria, because that would obviously be horrible because all these wars America whips up always are, as we are seeing now with this latest one in Ukraine. 

That's basically it, but everyone acts like that's giving Poland to Hitler or some such silly shit 

It's giving Czechoslovakia to Germany to be fair.

And seriously saying that Russia deserves the land it invaded is saying that the invasion was a-okay. You have to see that.

Edited September 20, 2022 by matrixman124

[scoobdog]

24 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

I mean I get why Nabs is upset with western hegemony. We fucked up a lot of countries. But my problem is him saying that the west's crimes somehow absolve Russia of their own. Which they don't.

I believe your point has been mentioned several times before by several different people, yet here we are.  Just goes to show that good faith arguments don't always result in good faith discussions.

[Top Gun]

Love to hear what territory Nabs would be willing to cede to someone who invaded the US. Granted his backwoods shithole corner of Tennessee isn't exactly prime real estate so he has nothing to worry about.

[scoobdog]

11 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

You are wording it in a way where my position is ridiculous.

Fascinating, isn't it?

[NewBluntsworth]

5 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

So yeah, Russia should have held the border like they always have and not done anything. Because the stalemate was fine.

Yes agreed 100% but they didn't because that isn't exactly a realistic standard in this insane global game of "who will the American empire invade/go to war with next" like again you are saying this from the imperial core, why would anyone dare challenge the will of my all powerful empire, don't those fools know America will pump in all the weapons and go to war and risk nuclear annihilation to make some stupid fake point about 'national sovereignty' as if it actually gives a shit about that, as if it's genuinely the world police looking out for the little guy, standing up for Ukraine and Taiwan against the big bad superpowers, give me a break, we're warmongering and doing empire shit and it's evil. 

11 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

What the fuck was the annexation of Crimea if not its own provocation?

.....in the immediate aftermath of the US-backed coup and civil war heavily involving Nazi battalions that was raging on its border. Don't try to play this "Crimea was a provocation but not the US-backed coup it was in response to"

12 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

And seriously saying that Russia deserves the land it invaded is saying that the invasion was a-okay. You have to see that.

It isn't going to end any other way. 

[matrixman124]

2 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

Yes agreed 100% but they didn't because that isn't exactly a realistic standard in this insane global game of "who will the American empire invade/go to war with next" like again you are saying this from the imperial core, why would anyone dare challenge the will of my all powerful empire, don't those fools know America will pump in all the weapons and go to war and risk nuclear annihilation to make some stupid fake point about 'national sovereignty' as if it actually gives a shit about that, as if it's genuinely the world police looking out for the little guy, standing up for Ukraine and Taiwan against the big bad superpowers, give me a break, we're warmongering and doing empire shit and it's evil. 

.....in the immediate aftermath of the US-backed coup and civil war heavily involving Nazi battalions that was raging on its border. Don't try to play this "Crimea was a provocation but not the US-backed coup it was in response to"

It isn't going to end any other way. 

China sure isn't looking like a solid ally anymore. Just sayin'

[NewBluntsworth]

16 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

China sure isn't looking like a solid ally anymore. Just sayin'

I was referencing all the warmongering War Criminal Joseph has been doing lately threatening to send American troops to China to defend Taiwan, bc we're always fighting ten wars and doing a thousand special operations simultaneously while constantly agitating for more. 

But yeah, it's these countries Russia and China and their imperfect responses to these endless provocations from America that need to be policed, no one can rein in America, but if one of these two step out of line we need America to go to war with them like we are seeing now. We heavily arm their unfriendly neighbors, installing unfriendly regimes when necessary as in the case of Ukraine in 2014, and expect them to never challenge US hegemony or else it means we are justified to go to war with them. 

Its always "is Russia justified? Are they justified to do this thing," that question never gets asked of America, it is simply allowed because empire. Is America justified to go to war with Russia in Ukraine? Or war with China over Taiwan? Why is America justified? Because it's America and whatever it says goes, because tubby white Americans on the internet say that America's stated justifications make sense to them? What the fuck are we even talking about. We are the war machine, it is America at the root of these issues, it is the American empire that must be stopped, not this fake specter of a "new Russian empire," not the Belt & Road Initiative, not all these other countries we can't stop going to war with and killing people in. It's America that needs a real regime change. For fucksake.

Edited September 20, 2022 by NewBluntsworth

[NewBluntsworth]

"American global hegemony is a big problem, but America should continue to serve as the global hegemon for as long as there are other countries around and, you know...doing things.."

Hmm, it sounds like you don't really think American hegemony is that big a problem after all then, if you still think it should get to go to war whenever it wants wherever it wants, arm whoever it wants, attack whoever it wants, help whoever kill whoever else is convenient for the empire in any given scenario. 

Bc that's what we're doing right now in Ukraine, going to war w Russia bc we wants to, bc we've decided that America is justified when it does things and Russia is not and needs to be punished by America and all its rich friends who are never held to the same standard or punished for anything. 

[scoobdog]

3 hours ago, matrixman124 said:

China sure isn't looking like a solid ally anymore. Just sayin'

What do you expect?  He's up agains the only war criminal in history to have never actually participated in a war.

At any rate, it is certainly worth noting that this conflict is a direct result of failures by the United States as the Cold War came to its abrupt end.

It's not wrong to say that the United States tends to be the best benefactor when a conflict is involved, and that tends to be a function of multiple factors, like a clear diplomatic delineation, the excess amount of military hardware that can be produced, and legislature that is looking to score political points the easiest possible way.  Still, a lot of it also has to do with the lack of a strong universal infrastructure to offset the wealth gap.  It isn't enough, for instance, to simply to give a billion dollar package including food, equipment, and security guarantees if there is no way to gauge what is actually needed.  Putin's hatred of NATO, unreasonable as it is, underscore the fact that it will always be a security organization and not a humanitarian one, and that its function as a neo-allied pact did not fill the shortcomings of United Nations as it was still in its infancy.  When the Iron Curtain did ultimately fall, the countries left behind didn't have a strong support network to help them rebuild the critical systems that the USSR had provided.  Some countries fared better than others, but it left the door open for Russia to try to move back in even a full three decades later.

[Doom Metal Alchemist]

Nabs entire point: "I don't give two shits how other countries kill each other, as long as the U.S. is not involved in any way, at all."

[Master-Debater131]

 

Its OK though, the sanctions and efforts to isolate Russia are totally ineffective. Russia is backed into a corner and is going to set fire to its economy to try and save its war. Full mobilization is probably coming, and that will utterly destroy the Russian economy. Not to mention probably cause all sorts of unrest in Russia itself.

 

 

[katt_goddess]

23 hours ago, scoobdog said:

It's always dangerous and irresponsible to tie a psychological disorder to such an over display of megalomania, particularly since no disorder (even schizophrenia) creates a truly destructive personality on its own.  For instance, even if he were to be suffering from a form of dementia where his intellectual capacity is severely compromised, he isn't likely to suddenly "learn" psychopathic traits.  Even in severe cases where the condition leads to severe depression and suicide, one's drive toward self-preservation isn't suddenly disengaged.  It's simply a matter of suicide being the the least painful path forward.  In this case, It's unlikely that Putin is truly suicidal.

Whose claiming he just learned psychopathic traits? My thought is disease may equal a weakening of those little internal safeguards that most people have that keep them from acting on the worst impulses they are capable of [ think of any time you've snapped at someone over something trivial/stupid/whatever would normally be ignored because you were fighting with a headache or a cold ] . Putin is a former KGB agent capable of greater levels of 'worst impulses' that were considered justified by whatever the reason du jour was. He's now attempting to reset his kingdom to its former glories while under his perma-Presidency and its being done by invasion, torture, murder and an attitude of 'no regerts' . *

And there is stage 3 syphilis where the brain is directly affected and can cause sudden violent tendencies. Not saying Putin has that because he is giving every appearance of being in control of himself to control the narrative but that is an example of something that can really turn a pacifist into a monster. 

 

*  'regerts' . Didn't trip the mis-spelling detector. Damn you, internet Webster for adding weird things into common acceptance. 

[tsar4]

There must be some kinda way outta here...

[NewBluntsworth]

1 minute ago, tsar4 said:

There must be some kinda way outta here...

Ukrainian military *all year long* been using considerable resources and manpower and donated military surveillance equipment to prevent Ukrainian men from fleeing the country in case Kyiv needs to force them to fight in the war, leaving their wives and children who make it out to get trafficked and God knows what all. Ukraine is a giant prison with foreign fighters and weapons being poured into it from all sides

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukrainian-rules-keeping-men-in-country-undermine-war-against-russia-2022-8

 

[Seight]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/medvedev-says-moscow-backed-separatists-must-hold-referendums-join-russia-2022-09-20/

*announces elections to decide annexation less than a week before said elections* 

...Seems legit. I don't have to point out that I'm being sarcastic when I say "seems legit", right?

[NewBluntsworth]

17 minutes ago, Seight said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/medvedev-says-moscow-backed-separatists-must-hold-referendums-join-russia-2022-09-20/

*announces elections to decide annexation less than a week before said elections* 

...Seems legit. I don't have to point out that I'm being sarcastic when I say "seems legit", right?

As if the people living there haven't had enough time to consider this prospect already, or...?

[scoobdog]

2 hours ago, katt_goddess said:

Whose claiming he just learned psychopathic traits? My thought is disease may equal a weakening of those little internal safeguards that most people have that keep them from acting on the worst impulses they are capable of [ think of any time you've snapped at someone over something trivial/stupid/whatever would normally be ignored because you were fighting with a headache or a cold ] . Putin is a former KGB agent capable of greater levels of 'worst impulses' that were considered justified by whatever the reason du jour was. He's now attempting to reset his kingdom to its former glories while under his perma-Presidency and its being done by invasion, torture, murder and an attitude of 'no regerts' . *

And there is stage 3 syphilis where the brain is directly affected and can cause sudden violent tendencies. Not saying Putin has that because he is giving every appearance of being in control of himself to control the narrative but that is an example of something that can really turn a pacifist into a monster. 

 

*  'regerts' . Didn't trip the mis-spelling detector. Damn you, internet Webster for adding weird things into common acceptance. 

It’s a distinction that needs to be made;  it’s not something that could be taken as given no matter how obvious it might be.  People get the mistaken idea that disease alters your psychology instead of diminishing the brains ability to either perceive or process external stimuli.  In Putin’s case it’s less that he’s prone to a moment of irrational behavior as he’s diminished in his ability to react to problems.

[scoobdog]

Also…

There is no evidence Ukraine’s military or its government is preventing its citizens from evacuating.

[NewBluntsworth]

18 hours ago, scoobdog said:

Also…

There is no evidence Ukraine’s military or its government is preventing its citizens from evacuating.

🤡 🤡 🤡 🤡 🤡

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/02/25/russia-invasion-ukraine-bans-male-citizens-leaving/6936471001/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/09/ukraine-men-leave/

 

Quote

The historic stream of refugees from Ukraine — 2 million people in two weeks — is overwhelmingly composed of women and children, who have been forced to separate from husbands and fathers, in one of the most excruciating aspects of this war. Most Ukrainian men ages 18 to 60 have been banned from leaving the country, in anticipation that they may be called to fight. Their president has modeled that to stay is heroic.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by NewBluntsworth

[scoobdog]

It appears I was wrong.  Zelensky did indeed declare martial law.

[Jman]

 

Putin is doubling down on his objectives with a general troop mobilization, with the tried and tested strategy of throwing bodies into the grinder in the hopes it stops working.

[Jman]

 

Russian citizens have been given two pieces of advice - Convert your rubles to crypto or something the government can’t seize, and head to Istanbul.

[Master-Debater131]

"partial mobilization" is just another way to say "we are getting our asses kicked and need more people to throw in the grinder".

Its a pretty clear sign that Russia is losing this war.

[Master-Debater131]

 

Its not verified, but its pretty damn believable with everything else thats happened over the last 24 hours.

[NewBluntsworth]

8 minutes ago, Master-Debater131 said:

Its not verified, but

Same with this, but shocking if true:

 

 

 

[scoobdog]

11 hours ago, Jman said:

 

Putin is doubling down on his objectives with a general troop mobilization, with the tried and tested strategy of throwing bodies into the grinder in the hopes it stops working.

This is going to be a tipping point in Russia.  From here, we're either going to see a concerted buy-in from the general Russian public or we're going to see the gradual erosion of Putin's power over his government.  Up to this point, he hasn't had to sell his own citizens on the imminent threat to Russia's own borders, and, regardless of the ill conception of the invasion, he's now had a few months of maneuvering to build a solid sales pitch.  

[tsar4]

How to release a number of agents into another country.

1) Create a pretext for conscription.

2) Allow tons of "citizens" to flee the country.

3) Imbed agents within the fleeing horde.

4) Why you looking here, there's no number 4.

5) PROFIT!!!

[scoobdog]

2 minutes ago, tsar4 said:

How to release a number of agents into another country.

1) Create a pretext for conscription.

2) Allow tons of "citizens" to flee the country.

3) Imbed agents within the fleeing horde.

4) Why you looking here, there's no number 4.

5) PROFIT!!!

No doubt Russian Intelligence has that base covered, but if I also had to guess.... Russia's intelligence services all pretty much know what's up with this and are likely laying low for the time being.

[Master-Debater131]

Missed this a couple days ago. Russia has moved its subs out of Crimea. 

Thats not exactly a sign of confidence.

[Jman]

“Please ignore the people hiding in the luggage compartments.”

[Distortedreasoning]

not sure where yall getting these stories of russia crumbling apart, or putin being ill, but they make a good laugh. 

 

it doesnt look like russia is crumbling, despite the recent counter offensive russia still holds more ukrainian territory. tho yes, ukraine is on the upswing. 

 

the west has sent billions and will continue to send billions to prolong the war. not like we needed the money here since we are all well off. 

 

russia and china relation is stronger than it has ever been in history. russia has many friends outside the BRICS nations. 

 

and yes, theres been reports of large groups of neo nazis in ukraine post 2014. lots of reporting done during that time go over how it was a major problem they couldnt ignore. 

 

 

 

 

[matrixman124]

[André Toulon]

23 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

not sure where yall getting these stories of russia crumbling apart, or putin being ill, but they make a good laugh. 

 

it doesnt look like russia is crumbling, despite the recent counter offensive russia still holds more ukrainian territory. tho yes, ukraine is on the upswing. 

 

the west has sent billions and will continue to send billions to prolong the war. not like we needed the money here since we are all well off. 

 

russia and china relation is stronger than it has ever been in history. russia has many friends outside the BRICS nations. 

 

and yes, theres been reports of large groups of neo nazis in ukraine post 2014. lots of reporting done during that time go over how it was a major problem they couldnt ignore. 

 

 

 

 

You're still selling this nonhunting dog....I find it odd but I like delaying the payoff

[scoobdog]

3 hours ago, Distortedreasoning said:

not sure where yall getting these stories of russia crumbling apart, or putin being ill, but they make a good laugh. 

 

it doesnt look like russia is crumbling, despite the recent counter offensive russia still holds more ukrainian territory. tho yes, ukraine is on the upswing. 

 

the west has sent billions and will continue to send billions to prolong the war. not like we needed the money here since we are all well off. 

 

russia and china relation is stronger than it has ever been in history. russia has many friends outside the BRICS nations. 

 

and yes, theres been reports of large groups of neo nazis in ukraine post 2014. lots of reporting done during that time go over how it was a major problem they couldnt ignore. 

 

 

 

 

Dude, just get a better paying job.

[tsar4]

Oh those funny Russians...

[tsar4]

"Glad to hear it, here's your conscription papers..."

 

[Distortedreasoning]

10 hours ago, André Toulon said:

You're still selling this nonhunting dog....I find it odd but I like delaying the payoff

how is it odd? 

been calling it out since 2014. 

 

[Distortedreasoning]

7 hours ago, scoobdog said:

Dude, just get a better paying job.

whats that got to do with the topic? 

[stilgar]

2 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

how is it odd? 

been calling it out since 2014. 

 

Yes, you have been regurgitating Russian propaganda since 2014.