The economy

[Icarus27k]

It's good it seems.

 

You have to marvel at America’s economy. Not long ago it was widely thought to be on the brink of recession. Instead it ended 2023 nearly 3% larger than 12 months earlier, having enjoyed one of the boomier years of the century so far. And it continues to defy expectations. At the start of this year, economists had been forecasting annualised growth in the first quarter of 1%; that prediction has since doubled. The labour market is in rude health, too. The unemployment rate has been below 4% for 25 consecutive months, the longest such spell in over 50 years. No wonder Uncle Sam is putting the rest of the world to shame. Since the end of 2019 the economy has grown by nearly 8% in real terms, more than twice as fast as the euro zone’s and ten times as quickly as Japan’s. Britain’s has barely grown at all.

America’s expansion is all the more striking when you consider the many things that could have killed it. As the Federal Reserve has fought inflation the economy has endured the sharpest rise in interest rates since Jimmy Carter was in the White House. The covid-19 pandemic, an intensifying trade war with China and the fight against climate change have together reshaped supply chains, labour markets and consumer preferences. Wars in Ukraine and Gaza have aggravated geopolitical tensions and worsened the strains on the global trading system.

 

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/03/14/americas-extraordinary-economy-keeps-defying-the-pessimists

[Seight]

I'm confused as to why they couldn't just leave it a silhouette instead of having the speedo there. 

[viperxmns]

Shoulda been given a huge boner to represent amercia's spending package

[Doom Metal Alchemist]

2 hours ago, Seight said:

I'm confused as to why they couldn't just leave it a silhouette instead of having the speedo there. 

I think they wanted him to look like a pro wrestler.

[André Toulon]

Crazy rich Indians huh....so since the brought it up, is no one else noticing this?

East Indians are buying up South OK and North TX... I'm just curious is this not happening elsewhere....yet.

Now since I've shot my wad, I'm gonna go see if that's even what this is about....yes, I work backwards 

Edited March 18 by André Toulon

[Winter_Rain]

I mean...the problem though is that most average people aren't seeing benefits from it.  Unemployment doesn't matter when the jobs don't keep up with cost of living.  "Growth" doesn't matter when people are stagnating in place and can't access the property market due to high prices and high interest rates.  Hopefully these things will improve in the coming years.  

Because perception matters.  If the economy is doing well on paper, that's good.  But if regular people don't perceive that they're getting benefits from it, that's bad.  🤷🏼‍♀️

 

[[classic swim]]

*gurgle gurgle gurgle suck suck suck suck*

[discolé monade]

9 hours ago, André Toulon said:

Crazy rich Indians huh....so since the brought it up, is no one else noticing this?

East Indians are buying up South OK and North TX... I'm just curious is this not happening elsewhere....yet.

Now since I've shot my wad, I'm gonna go see if that's even what this is about....yes, I work backwards 

we've had this convo i thought. 

the entirety that is any convienence store in this county is primarilary indian owned. and 3 specific names own 80% of those stores (+/-)

[Icarus27k]

Huh, it seems it be about the wealthy of India.

[André Toulon]

17 minutes ago, discolé monade said:

we've had this convo i thought. 

the entirety that is any convienence store in this county is primarilary indian owned. and 3 specific names own 80% of those stores (+/-)

Lately it's been the local grocery stores and other COVID killed buildings 

 

6 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

Huh, it seems it be about the wealthy of India.

I said I work backwards. I googled trying to read it in its entirety since the link is behind a paywall 

[1pooh4u]

On 3/18/2024 at 8:47 AM, André Toulon said:

Crazy rich Indians huh....so since the brought it up, is no one else noticing this?

East Indians are buying up South OK and North TX... I'm just curious is this not happening elsewhere....yet.

Now since I've shot my wad, I'm gonna go see if that's even what this is about....yes, I work backwards 

Where I’m at it’s the Chinese buying up everything IN CASH. Idk how people buy homes using cash. I tried buying a car w cash and got nowhere but looked at sideways 

[MasqueradeOverture]

If the economy is so great, why did I only get a 3% raise while ordering anything at Wendy's runs you 15 fucking dollars

[Icarus27k]

2 hours ago, MasqueradeOverture said:

If the economy is so great, why did I only get a 3% raise while ordering anything at Wendy's runs you 15 fucking dollars

 

If this is a serious question, there are many reasons for that. 

For my entire adult life, people have been saying workers deserve living wages. But those same people also like 89 cent burritos. 

[naraku360]

15 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

For my entire adult life, people have been saying workers deserve living wages. But those same people also like 89 cent burritos. 

"For my entire adult life, people have been saying workers deserve living wages. But those same people also like the food they can afford!"

"Silly poors!"

[[classic swim]]

I love my government! *gurgle gurgle gurgle gurgle suck suck swab swallow*

[scoobdog]

19 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

"For my entire adult life, people have been saying workers deserve living wages. But those same people also like the food they can afford!"

"Silly poors!"

You can still cook your own meal for less than $1 per item.  There are a whole host of issues with artificially deflated fast food products, but consumer accessibility isn't one of them.

[Icarus27k]

1 hour ago, naraku360 said:

"For my entire adult life, people have been saying workers deserve living wages. But those same people also like the food they can afford!"

"Silly poors!"

 

 

 

People protecting their capability to go to restaurants? Interesting.

[Icarus27k]

54 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

You can still cook your own meal for less than $1 per item.  There are a whole host of issues with artificially deflated fast food products, but consumer accessibility isn't one of them.

 

The argument naraku seems to be making is similar to "why doesn't anyone want to work at these fast food restaurants anymore" that was said right after the pandemic when workers had the power NOT to. 

 

I take it about as seriously as that. 

[Icarus27k]

1 hour ago, [classic swim] said:

I love my government! *gurgle gurgle gurgle gurgle suck suck swab swallow*

Blatant onomatopoeia violation.

Edited March 19 by Icarus27k

[Raptorpat]

I think there is definitely room out there for a conversion about the "real" cost of food to the extent that food prices are artificially low due to the underpayment of labor, from the farm to the restaurant.

[naraku360]

1 hour ago, scoobdog said:

You can still cook your own meal for less than $1 per item.  There are a whole host of issues with artificially deflated fast food products, but consumer accessibility isn't one of them.

None of this has to do with what I'm responding to.

 

19 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

 

The argument naraku seems to be making is similar to "why doesn't anyone want to work at these fast food restaurants anymore" that was said right after the pandemic when workers had the power NOT to. 

 

I take it about as seriously as that. 

My "argument" is that you come off like a smug elitist who's more concerned with looking down on people's decisions than recognizing even the most basic of reasons they may have made those decisions.

A criticism heavily exemplified by this out of touch, pompous response of yours.

You consistently demonstrate a disinterest in anyone's experience beyond your own. It's all politics, all the time.

Edited March 19 by naraku360

[1pooh4u]

Weird, idk any adult demanding fair, livable wages, that would be mad if their burrito went up 15 cents. Prices increase regardless might as well go to the workers. 

[Icarus27k]

10 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

None of this has to do with what I'm responding to.

 

My "argument" is that you come off like a smug elitist who's more concerned with looking down on people's decisions than recognizing even the most basic of reasons they may have made those decisions.

A criticism heavily exemplified by this out of touch, pompous response of yours.

You consistently demonstrate a disinterest in anyone's experience beyond your own. It's all politics, all the time.

 

Oh, so this is a personal thing about "how I come off", in which case I don't care what you think. 

It wouldn't be reasonable for me to care, stranger on the Internet.

Edited March 19 by Icarus27k

[[classic swim]]

10 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

None of this has to do with what I'm responding to.

 

My "argument" is that you come off like a smug elitist who's more concerned with looking down on people's decisions than recognizing even the most basic of reasons they may have made those decisions.

A criticism heavily exemplified by this out of touch, pompous response of yours.

You consistently demonstrate a disinterest in anyone's experience beyond your own. It's all politics, all the time.

Thank you so much. Holy shit. It’s always the fucking common person’s fault.

[naraku360]

9 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

 

Oh, so this is a personal thing about "how I come off", in which case I don't care what you think. 

It wouldn't be reasonable for me to care, stranger on the Internet.

You can call it personal all you want, you're shitting on people your plainly have no interest in understanding out of sheer arrognance. You can puff your chest out all you want, we all see how pathetic it is.

It also wouldn't be reasonable for you to drag stranger's eating habits into economy conversations, yet here we are.

Edited March 19 by naraku360

[scoobdog]

4 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

None of this has to do with what I'm responding to.

I know you were responding specifically to Icarus' diminutive expression of people's concerns about food prices and survival (which was itself a response to a diminutive statement by Masquerade).

Like Pat said, there is a lot of room for discussion about food price stability and it has nothing to do with wages.  The CPI for food has been artificially suppressed for a long time in part because agriculture represents a major export market that, unfortunately, has led to foreign interests staking claims on US soil.   The issues isn't something that can be resolved with market manipulation or corrections, which is problematic because it does represent a real drag on the economy that will only get worse the longer it is left unattended.

[naraku360]

1 minute ago, scoobdog said:

I know you were responding specifically to Icarus' diminutive expression of people's concerns about food prices and survival (which was itself a response to a diminutive statement by Masquerade).

Like Pat said, there is a lot of room for discussion about food price stability and it has nothing to do with wages.  The CPI for food has been artificially suppressed for a long time in part because agriculture represents a major export market that, unfortunately, has led to foreign interests staking claims on US soil.   The issues isn't something that can be resolved with market manipulation or corrections, which is problematic because it does represent a real drag on the economy that will only get worse the longer it is left unattended.

I'm sure there is a conversation to be had. I wasn't really planning to get into the weeds of it since I'm no economics wizard and was only commenting on the reductive reasoning.

[scoobdog]

Indeed there is.  Hey @Raptorpat, let's break this off an start a new thread.

[discolé monade]

6 hours ago, 1pooh4u said:

Where I’m at it’s the Chinese buying up everything IN CASH. Idk how people buy homes using cash. I tried buying a car w cash and got nowhere but looked at sideways 

same. 

[discolé monade]

11 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

Indeed there is.  Hey @Raptorpat, let's break this off an start a new thread.

[Raptorpat]

In 2019, NYS pass the farmworker fair labor practices bill or whatever it is called after 30 years of attempts going nowhere. 

The farmers are still fighting the rollout, claiming that requiring farmer workers be paid minimum wage and overtime etc. will drive up costs and put them out of business.

I don't doubt that it will drive up costs, but at the same time, if agricultural output costs what it does because farmworker are paid substandard wages to work 7-day weeks with no time off etc., that just says to me that we've been paying a discount on our food that subsidized by the laborers themselves. Which is really, genuinely unjust. Even moreso when many of these workers are villainized as "illegals" despite being the only ones willing to do the work for that pay.

So then it begs the question - what is the real cost of food? How much more is it really worth, and how many more people would be unable to afford the true cost? And you can work that up the supply chain. How much more would restaurant food cost if you were charged the real cost of the food and restaurant workers weren't also paid a sub-minimum wage subsidized by tips?

If every worker through the process were paid what they're worth, food prices would shoot up and I don't think the added economic activity created by raising those wages and benefits would cancel it out. It would really force us to reevaluate our economic relationship to food and how we make it affordable across the economic spectrum.

But as long as farmworkers are treated as second class - like in our own labor laws, we continue to put that conversation off.

[1pooh4u]

8 minutes ago, discolé monade said:

same. 

 it was nowhere near the amount they were using to buy the homes. Some of the people buying those homes are paying it in full. No mortgage.  

[scoobdog]

As a starting point:  the real cost of food is wholly dependent on what the general consumer can afford and sustain.  As reductive as it might sound, food items can't be determined by free market because the end result of such a system is that the government will inevitably step in for those people who can't afford the market rate.  After that, the cost of proper wages for agricultural workers is subordinate to everything other than profit because the other material costs (equipment w/depreciation and fuel costs, resource costs like water, soil, fertilizer, pesticide) are all items that are free market.

[1pooh4u]

Nobody wants to feel the pain of change but something has to give.  Our agriculture labor laws are not great. They allow for child labor and worker exploitation.   We’re spoiled. We pay little in taxes compared to other countries and it shows in mostly negative ways. No healthcare lead polluted water from old pipes roads bridges tunnels and railways are falling apart. At some point it has to be dealt with. 

[Icarus27k]

48 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

 

It also wouldn't be reasonable for you to drag stranger's eating habits into economy conversations, yet here we are.

 

Something I didn't do, of course. You're imagining things that I said and then accusing me of silly stuff. 

Setting the record straight on that. 

[Icarus27k]

The actual subject of food prices is indeed interesting. But also, fast food menu prices isn't an indicator of the health of the economy which what is implied here.

5 hours ago, MasqueradeOverture said:

If the economy is so great, why did I only get a 3% raise while ordering anything at Wendy's runs you 15 fucking dollars

 

GDP and the unemployment rate (mentioned in the OP) are definitely better indicators. 

[naraku360]

36 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

 

Something I didn't do, of course. You're imagining things that I said and then accusing me of silly stuff. 

Setting the record straight on that. 

What does this mean, then?

4 hours ago, Icarus27k said:

For my entire adult life, people have been saying workers deserve living wages. But those same people also like 89 cent burritos. 

As in, what is the relationship between the first sentence and the second if not a point of derision at the people in question?

I'm not the only person to read it this way, nor is it the first time this type of thing has come up. Writing it off as my imagination is exactly the what I'm talking about. I couldn't have a valid reason for the interpretation, could I? It must be a group hallucination.

[[classic swim]]

40 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

Something I didn't do, of course. You're imagining things that I said and then accusing me of silly stuff. 

Now wait a second, you gimpy little passive aggressive fuck. I thought you, Icarus27k, were too good and too privileged and too mighty to argue with the usual peasants!

Remember that? Remember when Pooh laid into your guppy ass a month ago in the election thread? Because daddy Biden fuckin neeeeeeeds your protection from all these dastardly pessimists?!

...And all you could do then was wiggle your bitch nose in the air and go “oh. I’m totally arguing right now, but I’m too perfect to say that I’m arguing! Haha! Owned!”

You can never argue like a real person and it’s so very priceless.

I hope you never realize what a fucking pretentious and waffling douche you are.

And I’m SO GLAD you took some time out from your afternoon Pilates class to quote reply everyone, and show everybody just how not involved you are with the world’s problems!

Great job, fuckhead!

[discolé monade]

1 hour ago, Raptorpat said:

In 2019, NYS pass the farmworker fair labor practices bill or whatever it is called after 30 years of attempts going nowhere. 

The farmers are still fighting the rollout, claiming that requiring farmer workers be paid minimum wage and overtime etc. will drive up costs and put them out of business.

I don't doubt that it will drive up costs, but at the same time, if agricultural output costs what it does because farmworker are paid substandard wages to work 7-day weeks with no time off etc., that just says to me that we've been paying a discount on our food that subsidized by the laborers themselves. Which is really, genuinely unjust. Even moreso when many of these workers are villainized as "illegals" despite being the only ones willing to do the work for that pay.

So then it begs the question - what is the real cost of food? How much more is it really worth, and how many more people would be unable to afford the true cost? And you can work that up the supply chain. How much more would restaurant food cost if you were charged the real cost of the food and restaurant workers weren't also paid a sub-minimum wage subsidized by tips?

If every worker through the process were paid what they're worth, food prices would shoot up and I don't think the added economic activity created by raising those wages and benefits would cancel it out. It would really force us to reevaluate our economic relationship to food and how we make it affordable across the economic spectrum.

But as long as farmworkers are treated as second class - like in our own labor laws, we continue to put that conversation off.

 the real cost comes from all the subsidities and bailouts, etc that farmers get annually.

if they lose a crop due to frost, they get it paid off in full. if part of the crop is lost due to drought (peanuts) they will get bailed out. 

they get a HUGE payout 2x a year. and 1x annually for leasing or selling to export.

none of the product from this particular county goes from farm to table. none of it. 

i'm not entirely sure where we get out 'georgia' grown tomatoes, but they are available all year. just as most product that aren't normally part of the  natural cycle. 

lettuce, cabbage, etc 

 then there are those that also have cattle in the mix. and they all get a pretty pay out for that. exported. as i said...it's wierd.

can't get cattle from this county, but cattle from australia is sold here. 

 

[Icarus27k]

17 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

What does this mean, then?

As in, what is the relationship between the first sentence and the second if not a point of derision at the people in question?

I'm not the only person to read it this way, nor is it the first time this type of thing has come up. Writing it off as my imagination is exactly the what I'm talking about. I couldn't have a valid reason for the interpretation, could I? It must be a group hallucination.

 

I didn't intend any derision. And additionally, I don't think it's my responsibility that others react fiercely to two sentences on the Internet. I'm now too old to care about that crap. 

I was making a legitimate point about labor costs effecting the prices of things, and that we previously benefited from low cost labor and didn't seem to care at the time. 

If people want to interpret that as elitist or any of the other adjectives you called me, then f*** them. I'll still engage with them on topics but I will dismiss their opinions about me.

[katt_goddess]

4 hours ago, Icarus27k said:

 

If this is a serious question, there are many reasons for that. 

For my entire adult life, people have been saying workers deserve living wages. But those same people also like 89 cent burritos. 

In Europe, people who work for McDonalds get a living wage, full medical, full dental, one month of paid vacation mandatory, PPTO for illness, and the food is CHEAPER than it is here without any of the European benefits attached. It's McD's so its the same thing you get here. 

It is very possible to pay a real wage for so-called burger flippers without the price of the burger needing to go up. It only goes up because rich corporations demand they always be billions in profit and they are allowed that behavior here. 

[Icarus27k]

35 minutes ago, katt_goddess said:

In Europe, people who work for McDonalds get a living wage, full medical, full dental, one month of paid vacation mandatory, PPTO for illness, and the food is CHEAPER than it is here without any of the European benefits attached. It's McD's so its the same thing you get here. 

It is very possible to pay a real wage for so-called burger flippers without the price of the burger needing to go up. It only goes up because rich corporations demand they always be billions in profit and they are allowed that behavior here. 

 

I have heard those claims are about McDonald's in European countries. I never got around to fact checking that, or finding out how it's achieved. It would be great if true. 

I assume that living wages for fast food workers would cause prices to increase, but then say it would be more than worth it. I'd be happy to be wrong though. 

[naraku360]

54 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

 

I didn't intend any derision. And additionally, I don't think it's my responsibility that others react fiercely to two sentences on the Internet. I'm now too old to care about that crap. 

I was making a legitimate point about labor costs effecting the prices of things, and that we previously benefited from low cost labor and didn't seem to care at the time. 

If people want to interpret that as elitist or any of the other adjectives you called me, then f*** them. I'll still engage with them on topics but I will dismiss their opinions about me.

 

 

Nobody said you have to care what people on the internet say. I'm suggesting it was phrased in a way that was very easy to read as hostile. It's not your responsibility to control reactions, but a part of basic human communication is making an effort to actually convey what you mean. It isn't a one way street where everyone should be expected to understand nuances of a post that didn't present the nuances.

You aren't "too old" to take into consideration criticism, nor does criticism need to be polite to be valid.

[katt_goddess]

2 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

 

I have heard those claims are about McDonald's in European countries. I never got around to fact checking that, or finding out how it's achieved. It would be great if true. 

I assume that living wages for fast food workers would cause prices to increase, but then say it would be more than worth it. I'd be happy to be wrong though. 

The only reason prices increase when employees are actually paid what they are worth is because the people that don't work like their bonuses to be extra bonus-y every single year. They trust that putting out even the idea that prices would be attached to any pay raises is enough for the paying consumers to rail against such things. But it really isn't. Wherever fast food gets their materials, they are getting it bulk and at a discount. [ and some of that food isn't quite food...but let's face it, we all choose to eat something that's bad for us at some point because it's convenient ] Most of these places have flexible hours that allow for many of their employees to not exactly get the full 36 hours needed to be covered by company insurance plans so that's already more money saved. When a company makes literally billions in profit every year, they can not cry about how raising the pay of those that are the reason they make money in the first place would somehow destroy them. If they wouldn't work for $7.25/hr, why should they act like their employees should be happy at that rate. 

[1pooh4u]

1 hour ago, Icarus27k said:

 

I didn't intend any derision. And additionally, I don't think it's my responsibility that others react fiercely to two sentences on the Internet. I'm now too old to care about that crap. 

I was making a legitimate point about labor costs effecting the prices of things, and that we previously benefited from low cost labor and didn't seem to care at the time. 

If people want to interpret that as elitist or any of the other adjectives you called me, then f*** them. I'll still engage with them on topics but I will dismiss their opinions about me.

 

 

People have been complaining about low wages and demanding fair pay for forever and the excuses are always “but the prices go up” people absolutely did care and have been caring idk where you get these ideas that “no one cared about benefitting from low wages then” or “the same people wanting fair wages also like their 89cent burrito”

it’s like you don’t care that for the average person, yes not being able to afford a burger, is a sign of the economy not working for them. Democrats do a terrible job of hyping up what they do well and what that means for the average person. 

[1pooh4u]

Don’t forget that fiduciary responsibility to shareholders 

[1pooh4u]

McDonald’s workers in France earn minimum wage which is about 1.8k euros per month. They also get health insurance and a minimum of 3 weeks pd vacation a cheese burger costs about 4 euros but prices vary by location 

[Icarus27k]

24 minutes ago, 1pooh4u said:

People have been complaining about low wages and demanding fair pay for forever and the excuses are always “but the prices go up” people absolutely did care and have been caring idk where you get these ideas that “no one cared about benefitting from low wages then” or “the same planting fair wages like their 89cent burrito”

it’s like you don’t care that for the average person, yes not being able to afford a burger, is a sign of the economy not working for them. Democrats do a terrible job of hyping up what they do well and what that means for the average person. 

 

Disposable income is rising at a faster rate than pre-pandemic. 

 

I don't think it's a case of them not being able to afford a burger. It's more complaining about the higher price than they are used to. 

Edited March 19 by Icarus27k

[Icarus27k]

It's not controversial to criticize American consumers for benefiting from inhumane cheap labor.

 

Even when I was a kid and my parents would buy Christmas or birthday presents from Walmart, I would realize this stuff came from  sweat shops in some foreign country. If I was willing to criticize Americans then for their habits, I'm certainly willing to do so now.

 

There's nothing offensive or elitist about doing so. 

Edited March 19 by Icarus27k

[katt_goddess]

1 hour ago, 1pooh4u said:

Don’t forget that fiduciary responsibility to shareholders 

'Fi-douchery responsibility to shareholders' can french-kiss the darkest part of my cat's ass. 

After she eats her medical mushies.