ITN: Israel

[Master-Debater131]

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Master-Debater131

[ghostrek]

Just now, ghostrek said:

okay this is from Israeli news of course but some of the stories being told that is just  horrifying

[ghostrek]

9 minutes ago, Master-Debater131 said:

 

 

 

that is a that's so wrong definitely  constitute a war crime. Why do we give up on our humanity when  we given to hatred . What did innocent children have to do with this conflict. Not a damn thing

Edited October 10, 2023 by ghostrek

[Master-Debater131]

 

Survivor of the Rave Massacre speaks about what happened.

Imagine being able to support Hamas in any way after all this.

[Master-Debater131]

 

Thats a good start. Odd how theres a lot of secondary explosions in these videos. Wonder what could cause that.......

[Master-Debater131]

 

Enemies among us openly cheering the mass murder of innocent civilians. Absolute scum of the Earth.

 

[DragonSinger]

FYI, I'm not posting a bunch of links like MD because I don't enjoy this shit.

[Icarus27k]

We're all kind of waiting for Israel to do something, to unleash some fury. But capability is thing. Israel's military is strong but it's not magic either. 

I have doubts about whether they are able to occupy the entire Gaza Strip or destroy Hamas. At least soon that is. 

[scoobdog]

4 hours ago, ghostrek said:

Why do we give up on our humanity when  we given to hatred . What did innocent children have to do with this conflict. Not a damn thing

I'm going to field this question because it opens up an interesting and somewhat unseemly aspect of human nature.

Humans objectify their fellow humans for reasons that are generally unrelated to hatred or lust, the most basic of such being how we regard those we consider part of our "pack."   In a relatively stable society, a justice system and a network of social services mitigate a lot of the disenfranchisement that leads to the horrific conditions the vast majority of Palestinians are forced into, but even here we have pronounced effect on the African American community due to latent and over biases.  When you deprive a group of people the basic necessities for long-term sustainability  - things like access to fair wages, affordable and stable housing, quality medical care, and shelter from climate - you force them into an untenable position.  By definition, objectification is impersonal:  when you dehumanize an antagonistic entity, you do so based on its position within a greater unseen force.  Objectification is the process by which we depersonalize other people, usually those who are unrelated to a specific act but nonetheless a part of the oppressing social structure, and its a way to rationalize attacking a weak part of that structure in defense of one's "pack."

That might sound somewhat sympathetic to oppressed people who resort to violence, but it also applies to unsympathetic entities like psychopaths, sociopaths, racists, bigots, and eugenicists and it's a mechanism often ignored because most of us don't have to face extreme situations or mental illness.  To be clear, there is no justification for massacring unarmed citizens.  It is nonetheless more likely to happen in situations where disenfranchisement is prevalent and the choices to overcome that disconnect are few and ineffective.  The short answer to your question is that we give up our humanity when we give into hatred because humanity is the easiest thing shed when faced with few options to defend yourself and your family.

[ghostrek]

8 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

I'm going to field this question because it opens up an interesting and somewhat unseemly aspect of human nature.

Humans objectify their fellow humans for reasons that are generally unrelated to hatred or lust, the most basic of such being how we regard those we consider part of our "pack."   In a relatively stable society, a justice system and a network of social services mitigate a lot of the disenfranchisement that leads to the horrific conditions the vast majority of Palestinians are forced into, but even here we have pronounced effect on the African American community due to latent and over biases.  When you deprive a group of people the basic necessities for long-term sustainability  - things like access to fair wages, affordable and stable housing, quality medical care, and shelter from climate - you force them into an untenable position.  By definition, objectification is impersonal:  when you dehumanize an antagonistic entity, you do so based on its position within a greater unseen force.  Objectification is the process by which we depersonalize other people, usually those who are unrelated to a specific act but nonetheless a part of the oppressing social structure, and its a way to rationalize attacking a weak part of that structure in defense of one's "pack."

That might sound somewhat sympathetic to oppressed people who resort to violence, but it also applies to unsympathetic entities like psychopaths, sociopaths, racists, bigots, and eugenicists and it's a mechanism often ignored because most of us don't have to face extreme situations or mental illness.  To be clear, there is no justification for massacring unarmed citizens.  It is nonetheless more likely to happen in situations where disenfranchisement is prevalent and the choices to overcome that disconnect are few and ineffective.  The short answer to your question is that we give up our humanity when we give into hatred because humanity is the easiest thing shed when faced with few options to defend yourself and your family.

But doesn't that does create a cycle or several cycles several of them generational others very more short-term

[Master-Debater131]

You mistake enjoyment for pure rage. I'm sick of it, and sick of the anti-Semites constantly trying to "both sides" this issue. Its not. One side kidnaps women and children. One side indiscriminately fires rockets at civilians. One side relies on terror as its primary form of warfare. One side hides behind civilians and then parades the dead bodies of civilians out knowing they will get sympathy from the media. One side uses rape as a weapon. One side has a stated goal of wiping out every single Jew it can find.

Its not Israel doing this. Its Hamas.

So yea, I'm sick and tired of it. At this point its clear that the idea of peace or two state solution is dead as long as Hamas exists in any form. So whatever Israel needs to do to end the threat of Hamas once and for all, they should do it.

[scoobdog]

23 minutes ago, ghostrek said:

But doesn't that does create a cycle or several cycles several of them generational others very more short-term

Not sure what you're asking.

[ghostrek]

20 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

Not sure what you're asking.

You ever realized that the the victims often becomes the victimizer It goes in cycles both short-term and long-term

[DragonSinger]

2 hours ago, Master-Debater131 said:

You mistake enjoyment for pure rage. I'm sick of it, and sick of the anti-Semites constantly trying to "both sides" this issue. Its not. One side kidnaps women and children. One side indiscriminately fires rockets at civilians. One side relies on terror as its primary form of warfare. One side hides behind civilians and then parades the dead bodies of civilians out knowing they will get sympathy from the media. One side uses rape as a weapon. One side has a stated goal of wiping out every single Jew it can find.

Its not Israel doing this. Its Hamas.

So yea, I'm sick and tired of it. At this point its clear that the idea of peace or two state solution is dead as long as Hamas exists in any form. So whatever Israel needs to do to end the threat of Hamas once and for all, they should do it.

@ghostrek, I'll help you understand Scoob's point by highlighting and explaining some things in MD's post. There are well-documented human rights abuses against Palestinians, but MD does not care. To her, Israel's leadership has done nothing wrong, so everything is 100% the fault of Hamas. The death tolls over the years tell different stories but because Palestinians are not humans to MD, those acts of violence don't count. She also clearly doesn't separate civilians from Hamas in her mind, so to her, when Palestinian civilians are killed, it's a just and noble thing that NEEDS to be done as clearly demonstrated by her last sentence.

Yes, this is an utterly pointless cycle of violence. Hamas slaughtering civilians solves nothing and brings more death to Palestinians. Netanyahu retaliating without a care about civilian deaths solves nothing and just ends up getting groups like Hamas more recruits. Then there are surrounding countries with equally shitty leadership who get their civilians killed over this shit, and again more unnecessary death.

Edited October 10, 2023 by DragonSinger

[ghostrek]

58 minutes ago, Master-Debater131 said:

You mistake enjoyment for pure rage. I'm sick of it, and sick of the anti-Semites constantly trying to "both sides" this issue. Its not. One side kidnaps women and children. One side indiscriminately fires rockets at civilians. One side relies on terror as its primary form of warfare. One side hides behind civilians and then parades the dead bodies of civilians out knowing they will get sympathy from the media. One side uses rape as a weapon. One side has a stated goal of wiping out every single Jew it can find.

Its not Israel doing this. Its Hamas.

So yea, I'm sick and tired of it. At this point its clear that the idea of peace or two state solution is dead as long as Hamas exists in any form. So whatever Israel needs to do to end the threat of Hamas once and for all, they should do it.

@Master-Debater131 what you mean by mistake enjoyment for pure rage .  i did not take enjoyment in this conflict trust me.

 

[cyberbully]

16 minutes ago, ghostrek said:

@Master-Debater131 what you mean by mistake enjoyment for pure rage .  i did not take enjoyment in this conflict trust me.

 

Dude, no one is talking about or to you except Scoob. Stop looking for ways to make this about you.

Someone told her she was enjoying it, and she responded...none of this is about you.

[Master-Debater131]

21 minutes ago, ghostrek said:

@Master-Debater131 what you mean by mistake enjoyment for pure rage .  i did not take enjoyment in this conflict trust me.

 

Wasnt talking directly to you on that. Was for someone else.

[Master-Debater131]

 

 

[scoobdog]

1 hour ago, ghostrek said:

You ever realized that the the victims often becomes the victimizer It goes in cycles both short-term and long-term

That’s something else.

We all objectify to some degree, and it’s not inherently bad on its own.  You don’t try to empathize with everyone you meet because that’s impossible.  When you objectify people as stereotypes by applying a racist ideology globally, it’s obviously bad.  We learn to hate because we apply racial and cultural stereotypes to groups of people instead of simply assuming those people have the same basic core beliefs as we do.

[Icarus27k]

1 hour ago, Master-Debater131 said:

 

 

 

This isn't useful for war aims. "This is good versus evil" isn't good enough to launch a war. That's how you get 20 years in Afghanistan. 

[Icarus27k]

I am thinking in terms of Israel trying to make the case for why it needs to launch an attack on Gaza. 

[Icarus27k]

What is the plan? Is it to destroy Hamas? Okay, but how are you going to do that? Do you have a list of all the people in Hamas and you're going to start killing them? How far down the list do we go until Hamas itself is considered destroyed?

And what's the larger goal of destroying Hamas? To protect Israel from them? If so, then why can't you just park your military on the border of Gaza and use Iron Dome to stop rockets? Would that also achieve the larger goal of protecting Israel.

 

 

So many questions that seems like they should be answered before doing anything.

[Icarus27k]

Despite all of this, there is a more alarming situation in Lebanon, where Hezbollah is watching this war and could be tempted to join. I can tell the U.S. is more concerned about it than they are about Gaza and Hamas. 

Escalation could happen with a third party entering the war, and the U.S. is putting a lot of resources toward deterring that from happening. 

 

Hezbollah makes Hamas look that a disorganized group. It's an actual army with 100,000 unguided rockets.

 

P.S. I'm concerned about it too. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Icarus27k

[discolé monade]

38 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

Despite all of this, there is a more alarming situation in Lebanon, where Hezbollah is watching this war and could be tempted to join. I can tell the U.S. is more concerned about it than they are about Gaza and Hamas. 

Escalation could happen with a third party entering the war, and the U.S. is putting a lot of resources toward deterring that from happening. 

 

Hezbollah makes Hamas look that a disorganized group. It's an actual army with 100,000 unguided rockets.

 

P.S. I'm concerned about it too. 

well...iran does funds and provides materials to hamas, while turkey houses it's higher ranking officials.

that would be the concern, imo, if iran decides to say 'hey...remember us?'

[DragonSinger]

I've been purposely out of the loop when it comes to the national news cycle, so I was unaware the Biden Administration thought everything was sweet over there and was caught off guard too. It's kind of shocking to me that they took Hamas's quiet behavior at face value despite obvious signs of unrest if they had spoken to anyone at street level in Gaza or just looked at social media. There has been growing anger for months. I don't understand where US or Israeli intelligence were gathering info from. Like how the fuck do I have better sources than them?

[discolé monade]

Just now, DragonSinger said:

I've been purposely out of the loop when it comes to the national news cycle, so I was unaware the Biden Administration thought everything was sweet over there and was caught off guard too. It's kind of shocking to me that they took Hamas's quiet behavior at face value despite obvious signs of unrest if they had spoken to anyone at street level in Gaza or just looked at social media. There has been growing anger for months. I don't understand where US or Israeli intelligence were gathering info from. Like how the fuck do I have better sources than them?

that's my 'huh' moment. 

isreal didn't 'hear' any chatter? the u.s. didn't 'hear' any chatter. 

are we to believe that hamas has become so, silent, and orgnanized that NO ONE knew what was happening? 

[discolé monade]

5 hours ago, scoobdog said:

 .  When you deprive a group of people the basic necessities for long-term sustainability  - things like access to fair wages, affordable and stable housing, quality medical care, and shelter from climate - you force them into an untenable position.   

 

[katt_goddess]

38 minutes ago, discolé monade said:

that's my 'huh' moment. 

isreal didn't 'hear' any chatter? the u.s. didn't 'hear' any chatter. 

are we to believe that hamas has become so, silent, and orgnanized that NO ONE knew what was happening? 

Since someone else brought this up, I feel like weighing in slightly in that this was my thought when it first hit the fan on the Saturday early news. Israel supposedly has a top-tier information network and we share intel with each other. So for it to fail this badly, either someone let things fail badly or someone compromised the types of sources/avenues used to make them worthless. You have Netanyahu who wants to stay in power so bad it's not at all hard to believe that he'd let all hell break loose in order to continue in power through force. You have MAGAt loyalists on this end of things who would absolutely foot-drag on things if they thought it could cause trouble. There's also that metric shit-ton of confidential documents that were stolen by a golf-cart riding blobfish who 'likes souvenirs' and likes dictators, tyrants, and terrorists just as much if they say nice things about him. 

So, there's my current conspiracy theory thoughts on things. At least I'm not claiming vaccines are filled with microchips that track your every move while unironically posting that from an Apple product.  

[discolé monade]

at a cost of 3.2 billion $$ /year. (117 billion total)

3.75 trillion since the end of ww2 to foreign aid to countries. 

at some point, it would be really nice if the u.s would STOP acting like the atm of the world, and start taking care of shit here. 

and the first FULL deployment headed out.

i've also been reading that u.s. has been trying to repair relations to china, and this has hindered talks, meanwhile, criticizing china for not siding with israel.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by discolé monade

[Icarus27k]

12 hours ago, Master-Debater131 said:

 

Enemies among us openly cheering the mass murder of innocent civilians. Absolute scum of the Earth.

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, there is video on social media of a pro-ISRAEL rally in NYC where rallygoers are saying genocidal things like "Kill all Palestinians"

They seem to think there is a two-sideism here. 

[discolé monade]

11 hours ago, discolé monade said:

at a cost of 3.2 billion $$ /year. (117 billion total) to israel. 

3.75 trillion since the end of ww2 to foreign aid to other countries. 

at some point, it would be really nice if the u.s would STOP acting like the atm of the world, and start taking care of shit here. 

and the first FULL deployment headed out.

i've also been reading that u.s. has been trying to repair relations to china, and this has hindered talks, meanwhile, criticizing china for not siding with israel.

 

 

[1pooh4u]

Wow what a circle jerk of a thread w people pretending to know wtf they’re talking about.  
There is two sides to this story of never ending violence. Hamas builds tunnels under schools hospitals and orphanages that work as weapons smuggling for Hamas and the Palestinians have been calling for the death of Israel and its citizens from the land to the sea since 1949 and with each attack Israel’s government has become more and more brutal with no one stopping Israel from dropping bombs on the most densely populated area on the planet. We enable Israel’s cruelty. Had we stopped giving unconditional money maybe the government of Israel would be more restrained in their attacks but we never did and now Gaza is basically an open air prison but it’s not all Israel’s fault. Wtf should they do when Hamas uses human shields (I know most of you probably don’t care that they do that or believe it but that’s exactly what’s going on) idk how to fight an enemy like that.  My Dad yells at me all the time when I say Israel can’t level hospitals and schools or other buildings to destroy tunnels or kill Hamas members to achieve their aims but at least I acknowledge the right of both people to exist and fight for that existence. 
Netanyahu is no more or less evil than Hamas.   
As for Israeli citizens saying “death to all Palestinians” yes that’s gross and fairly new. It’s been the last decade or so but Palestinian’s have been saying death to Israel and all Jews for almost a hundred years so idk. People get fuckin hateful and disgusting 
I try to stay away from these threads before I start hating all of you but o keep getting pulled back in and yeah I’m not being figurative when I say all of you. Even the ones siding completely w Israel because acknowledgement must be made to how we got here and that real people are fuckin dying as we get to sit here jerking each other off as though we know what to do or wtf is going on. 

[1pooh4u]

Palestinian’s had the moral high ground until this attack.  It’s a shame. Dragging babies through the street and now Israeli military is indiscriminately bombing Gaza. 

[discolé monade]

45 minutes ago, 1pooh4u said:

  that real people are fuckin dying as we get to sit here jerking each other off as though we know what to do or wtf is going on. 

i don't support either side in this. i never understood was happening. EVEN after reading about  the armistace agreement, or 'the 11th hour' agreement. 

i can only say i'm completely happy that i'm no longer serving, OR able to be called up. because i think things are going to expand, greatly.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by discolé monade

[Jman]

Rumors are flying on Twitter that Hezbollah has launched a northern front attack via UAV’s, and that’s all I’m saying till confirmation comes from official sources.

This is the end result of Elon firing fact checkers because they hurt his fee-fees.

[ghostrek]

9 minutes ago, 1pooh4u said:

Palestinian’s had the moral high ground until this attack.  It’s a shame. Dragging babies through the street and now Israeli military is indiscriminately bombing Gaza. 

@1pooh4u  look how much I am pro-military most of the time and I know this is a horrible situation and people are going to die on either side. It's hard to believe in the since I joined ASMB I have changed a lot politically. I Do not take pleasure Watching this conflict play out but this could be it one of the many escalating conflicts in our world today.

[ghostrek]

2 minutes ago, Jman said:

Rumors are flying on Twitter that Hezbollah has launched a northern front attack via UAV’s, and that’s all I’m saying till confirmation comes from official sources.

This is the end result of Elon firing fact checkers because they hurt his fee-fees.

? Holy crap

[discolé monade]

9 minutes ago, Jman said:

Rumors are flying on Twitter that Hezbollah has launched a northern front attack via UAV’s, and that’s all I’m saying till confirmation comes from official sources.

This is the end result of Elon firing fact checkers because they hurt his fee-fees.

not rumors, it would seem

Edited October 11, 2023 by discolé monade
words are hard

[naraku360]

[ghostrek]

25 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

you know it seems to me that the IDF needs to study asymmetric warfare more. For some reason, this war reminds me a lot of what I learned about the Vietnam conflict. Sometimes the cheapest way is the more effective way to win wars. Albeit Vietnam was won by  (then) the North through manipulation of public perception on the American home front.  Guerilla Warfare / asymmetric warfare is finding advantages in ways your enemy doesn't realize they're weak in.

 

[Icarus27k]

How it started: Hezbollah has invaded northern Israel.

90 minutes later:

 

[discolé monade]

4 hours ago, Icarus27k said:

How it started: Hezbollah has invaded northern Israel.

90 minutes later:

 

so...reuters is wrong?
 

R.A. dan hagari did say this.

[Icarus27k]

The best I read and understood it is that Hezbollah and the Israeli government have an unwritten understanding of rules of engagement. They regularly attack each other even in normal times. The exchange Reuters reported is one of their normal exchanges. 

 

However today another incident came up that turned out to be a false alarm. Israel thought there was UAVs flying into Israel from Lebanon. They sounded sirens throughout northern Israel, scrambled jets and fired flares into southern Lebanon. But there were no UAVs.  And Twitter started running it with it and blasted for an hour that Hezbollah had entered the war. 

[ghostrek]

6 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

The best I read and understood it is that Hezbollah and the Israeli government have an unwritten understanding of rules of engagement. They regularly attack each other even in normal times. The exchange Reuters reported is one of their normal exchanges. 

 

However today another incident came up that turned out to be a false alarm. Israel thought there was UAVs flying into Israel from Lebanon. They sounded sirens throughout northern Israel, scrambled jets and fired flares into southern Lebanon. But there were no UAVs.  And Twitter started running it with it and blasted for an hour that Hezbollah had entered the war. 

I wonder does conflict this conflict is just being over-escalated. But political elements outside of this geographical area I found a youTube channel called  Breakthrough news Which is a  pottical news outlet/ arm of a communist party based in the United States.

 Honestly I can know why is it issue for them because I mean frankly you know America has a giant wealth disparityI in his own right andAnd what does that have to do with the  Arab Israeli conflict. Not damn thing I don't know why therethinking Hamas's side next next to Israel is a close US ally and their anti-current American foreign policy.

But that shit caused me to leave the far left. Yes I actually considered myself a communist never joined a communist party but I did consider myself one at one point?

 

[discolé monade]

The U.S. and Qatar have agreed not to release the $6 billion in Iranian oil revenue that was unfrozen last month as part of a prisoner swap between the U.S. and Iran, according to multiple news outlets

[tsar4]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67083432

[Icarus27k]

As of February of this year, the U.S. intelligence community considered a war between Israel and Lebanon-based Hezbollah to be unlikely. This was due to a diplomatic breakthrough in 2022 where Israel and Lebanon settled a long-running dispute over maritime borders. 

That doesn't mean peaceful though. Israel and Hezbollah have an understanding of "mutual deterrence". 

 

[Icarus27k]

Just to clarify, Israel will be incapable of occupying all of Gaza and destroying all of Hamas. It's just not possible. A long-lasting occupation will strain Israel's resources and take those resources away from other threatening areas like the West Bank and the north of the country. 

Hamas will re-emerge in the future whenever Israel decides to leave. 

 

Also, the Israeli public isn't having a moment of rallying around the Netanyahu government. They are actually very skeptical of his actions leading up to Hamas' massacre and his war plans going forward. 

[Master-Debater131]

Scoop: Israel tells UN to evacuate the northern Gaza Strip within 24 hours

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/13/israel-gaza-hamas-evacuate-un-ground-operation

"

The Israeli Ministry of Defense and the IDF notified the UN just before midnight local time that Palestinians living north of Wadi Gaza should evacuate to the southern part of the Gaza Strip in the next 24 hours, according to UN spokesperson Stéphane Dujarric and another source with direct knowledge.

The big picture: More than 1 million Palestinians live in this area. The message could be a signal that the Israeli military is preparing for an imminent ground operation.

• The sources told Axios that the IDF's reason for the notification was in order for civilians not to be hurt by the military's actions and operations.
• "We call on all civilians in Gaza City to move south," Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said Friday in a press conference with U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in Tel Aviv.
• "We don't want to harm them. Whoever wants to save his life should go south. Hamas is camouflaging itself inside civilian population and we are going to go in and dismantle its infrastructure," Gallant said.
• More than 1,530 Palestinians and 1,200 Israelis have been killed, thousands have been injured, and hundreds of thousands of others have been displaced since the latest fighting between Israel and Hamas began. Hamas is believed to be holding about 150 hostages in Gaza."

 

Israel is warning everyone that a ground attack is coming. They are finally taking the gloves off and going to take care of the Hamas problem. The goal seems pretty clear, find and destroy Hamas.

[Master-Debater131]

 

And just in case anyone still thinks that Hamas wants anything other than mass carnage. They hide behind civilians and then wait for the useful idiots and anti-Semites to claim that Israel is in the wrong when they release pictures of dead civilians.