A Discussion on Civility

[Sieg67]

4 minutes ago, stilgar said:

Shut the fuck up shithead.

I disapprove of Ginguys posts as much as the next guy but flaming and telling people to shut up is not helpful nor is it how we should behave.
I'm sure you're going to have choice words for me but I'm prepared for that.

[stilgar]

22 minutes ago, Sieg67 said:

I disapprove of Ginguys posts as much as the next guy but flaming and telling people to shut up is not helpful nor is it how we should behave.
I'm sure you're going to have choice words for me but I'm prepared for that.

Look, I will always tell nazi apologists to shut the fuck up no matter what they say. There is no merit in discussing anything with people like jingo. Their opinions do not matter and nothing you say to them will change their minds.

[Sieg67]

Obviously flaming isn't working.  That's not going to change his opinion.
If you have to reply at all, might as well make a actual counterpoint or bring forth new information.

I recall you flaming me at one point.  What's your excuse for that?
Am I a NAZI apologists ?

Edited January 5, 2023 by Sieg67

[SwimModSponges]

There's no reason you two should be fighting each other.

Let's focus on things we can agree on.

Jingo's a prick and we all hate him.

OK back on topic.

 

[Sieg67]

13 minutes ago, SwimModSponges said:

There's no reason you two should be fighting each other.

Let's focus on things we can agree on.

Jingo's a prick and we all hate him.

OK back on topic.

 

I don't like him or Nabs but I'm not going to resort to flaming either.
I'm also not going to do what Nabs does and reply with a clown.

When I have an issue with that they say, I try to stay civil.  Maybe put in a snarky or sarcastic comment or two.
 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Sieg67

[SwimModSponges]

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks man.

[DragonSinger]

1 minute ago, Sieg67 said:

I don't like him or Nabs but I'm not going to resort to flaming either.

When I have an issue with that they say, I try to stay civil.  Maybe put in a snarky or sarcastic comment or two.

Jingai's aim is to post that shit in hopes there's someone who will listen because his only goal is spreading hate. There is no actual debate to be had with him. There is no changing him. People who are that deep in the sauce do not want to change. You have to shout people like him down so at least others see there are consequences for that kind of behavior.

When you're dealing with someone who only wants to cause harm, the high road is absolutely useless. The only thing it accomplishes is making you feel good about yourself and letting rhetoric like that run unchecked.

[DragonSinger]

TLDR: neo-nazis do not deserve civility.

[SwimModSponges]

I'm going to disagree on your explanation for his reasoning.

He's not interested in being heard.

What he does is entirely for himself.

So there's this thing cults do- when they have their members go out recruiting it's not actually about gaining new members. Most people see through the bullshit and treat the cultist like shit. The cultists begin to see the outside world as hurtful and cruel, and are therein driven deeper into the subjugation of the cult.

Been looking into this for when I get my Time religion going.

But anyways, yeah, jingo got caught in a loop.

[scoobdog]

3 hours ago, Ginguy said:

So, Fauci was conspiring to suppress contrary medical opinions regarding the virus.

Seems familiar....

 

Bonus, additional confirmation that "journalists" were conspiring with government and Twitter (certainly other large social media sites as well) to bury stories and gaslight.

 

Everyone who expressed those “contrary medical opinions” deserves to be silenced permanently.

[DragonSinger]

4 minutes ago, SwimModSponges said:

I'm going to disagree on your explanation for his reasoning.

He's not interested in being heard.

What he does is entirely for himself.

So there's this thing cults do- when they have their members go out recruiting it's not actually about gaining new members. Most people see through the bullshit and treat the cultist like shit. The cultists begin to see the outside world as hurtful and cruel, and are therein driven deeper into the subjugation of the cult.

Been looking into this for when I get my Time religion going.

But anyways, yeah, jingo got caught in a loop.

Riiighhht. Yeah, I'm gonna go with my experience of living as a black queer woman in rural Georgia and having to learn too much about neo-nazis as a means of survival. It doesn't matter that most people see through them, what matters are the few who are vunerable to radicalization which people like Jingai try to take advantage of. Jingai isn't in a fucking loop. Back in the day, all sorts of posters tried debating him nicely and trying to make him see the light. None of that shit worked. He just used the civil interactions as an excuse to post long ass comments filled with propaganda.

[scoobdog]

9 minutes ago, DragonSinger said:

Riiighhht. Yeah, I'm gonna go with my experience of living as a black queer woman in rural Georgia and having to learn too much about neo-nazis as a means of survival. It doesn't matter that most people see through them, what matters are the few who are vunerable to radicalization which people like Jingai try to take advantage of. Jingai isn't in a fucking loop. Back in the day, all sorts of posters tried debating him nicely and trying to make him see the light. None of that shit worked. He just used the civil interactions as an excuse to post long ass comments filled with propaganda.

Repeat for emphasis.  There’s a special hell for disingenuous pieces of shit who complain about dishonest debates while not honestly debating.

[SwimModSponges]

Ditto.

[cyberbully]

1 hour ago, Sieg67 said:

I don't like him or Nabs but I'm not going to resort to flaming either.
I'm also not going to do what Nabs does and reply with a clown.

When I have an issue with that they say, I try to stay civil.  Maybe put in a snarky or sarcastic comment or two.
 

You shouldn't get too upset with Stilgar, I don't think his intent is ever to help the situation.  As far a Jingo and Nabs go, I just don't engage them in good faith which means I can barely engage them at all because shit will flow off topic quickly and It'll be my fault....

But just in the realm of Ginny, I still don't see how he get under y'all skin.....He literally provides nothing other than troll gifs and links that may or may not support his narrative.  When he does use his own words, it's usually not completely factual or a sentiment you can find in the first few results of googling the subject matter.  Frankly, a stilgar response is all he actually works for.

[Insipid]

48 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

Repeat for emphasis.  There’s a special hell for disingenuous pieces of shit who complain about dishonest debates while not honestly debating.

🙃

[scoobdog]

2 hours ago, Insipid said:

🙃

Right back at you.

[DragonSinger]

2 hours ago, cyberbully said:

You shouldn't get too upset with Stilgar, I don't think his intent is ever to help the situation.  As far a Jingo and Nabs go, I just don't engage them in good faith which means I can barely engage them at all because shit will flow off topic quickly and It'll be my fault....

But just in the realm of Ginny, I still don't see how he get under y'all skin.....He literally provides nothing other than troll gifs and links that may or may not support his narrative.  When he does use his own words, it's usually not completely factual or a sentiment you can find in the first few results of googling the subject matter.  Frankly, a stilgar response is all he actually works for.

He bothers me because he's not a Bucket. His poison can reach someone. Maybe not here, but I bet he does this on multiple sites and someone will bite. 

[naraku360]

7 hours ago, DragonSinger said:

When you're dealing with someone who only wants to cause harm, the high road is absolutely useless.

I learned the hard way this doesn't work. Ginguy posts an awful lot of gafbage and he obviously can't be reasoned with, but the sanctity of Ginguy's fragile baby ego isn't the point.

All Ginguy does is act like the drunk agitator on a bus. He wants to pick fights because when someone is shitty back he can play victim. That's how the right weaponizes behavior on the left.

He can provoke all he wants but if people stick to the points of what he's saying, explain why they're wrong (and acknowledge the rare instances of him stumbling on being correct), then all he accomplishes by posting his transparent cruelty and gross smugness is looking like the asshole he is.

[Poofy]

6 hours ago, DragonSinger said:

Riiighhht. Yeah, I'm gonna go with my experience of living as a black queer woman in rural Georgia and having to learn too much about neo-nazis as a means of survival. It doesn't matter that most people see through them, what matters are the few who are vunerable to radicalization which people like Jingai try to take advantage of. Jingai isn't in a fucking loop. Back in the day, all sorts of posters tried debating him nicely and trying to make him see the light. None of that shit worked. He just used the civil interactions as an excuse to post long ass comments filled with propaganda.

well i just used his propaganda comments to post my crazy parapolitico rants

[naraku360]

7 hours ago, DragonSinger said:

TLDR: neo-nazis do not deserve civility.

It's not about their feelings. It's about going on the offense without debasing ourselves in the process. There's a difference between letting the message lie unaddressed and behaving like reasonable people so the unreasonable (Ginguy) do nothing but make themselves look bad.

How can he bitch about people bullying him and crying about the angry leftist hate mob if the "hate mob" calmly lays out why he's wrong? He wants to be the Joker as a villain. But barely acknowledging him as more than the butt of a joke seems to have drastically diminished his posting capacity. 'Cause he's not coherent or principled enough to amount to anything more than a a sad, impotent joke when the retort is a simple deconstruction of his arguments.

Edited January 5, 2023 by naraku360

[naraku360]

6 hours ago, cyberbully said:

You shouldn't get too upset with Stilgar, I don't think his intent is ever to help the situation.  As far a Jingo and Nabs go, I just don't engage them in good faith which means I can barely engage them at all because shit will flow off topic quickly and It'll be my fault....

But just in the realm of Ginny, I still don't see how he get under y'all skin.....He literally provides nothing other than troll gifs and links that may or may not support his narrative.  When he does use his own words, it's usually not completely factual or a sentiment you can find in the first few results of googling the subject matter.  Frankly, a stilgar response is all he actually works for.

I dunno, I prefer giving the 'fuck off, Ginguy' responses in the lowkey realm these days. Less "shut the fuck up" and more funny gif react, which can often come with its own backhanded jab.

[Seight]

1 minute ago, naraku360 said:

I dunno, I prefer giving the 'fuck off, Ginguy' responses in the lowkey realm these days. Less "shut the fuck up" and more funny gif react, which can often come with its own backhanded jab.

I haven't been doing the gifs on purpose for a while*

*The purpose is "NASCAR doesn't start up again for another month and Formula 1 for another two months

[naraku360]

28 minutes ago, Seight said:

I haven't been doing the gifs on purpose for a while*

*The purpose is "NASCAR doesn't start up again for another month and Formula 1 for another two months

 

[cyberbully]

Jesus....people really used to play xbox

[cyberbully]

1 hour ago, naraku360 said:

I dunno, I prefer giving the 'fuck off, Ginguy' responses in the lowkey realm these days. Less "shut the fuck up" and more funny gif react, which can often come with its own backhanded jab.

Oh by all means, continue...I'm not here asking anyone to stop...I just kinda feel left out because his posts don't even draw me in and spark that insatiable need for vitriol that I harbor....I just look at it and smh.  

 

[DragonSinger]

1 hour ago, naraku360 said:

It's not about their feelings. It's about going on the offense without debasing ourselves in the process. There's a difference between letting the message lie unaddressed and behaving like reasonable people so the unreasonable (Ginguy) do nothing but make themselves look bad.

How can he bitch about people bullying him and crying about the angry leftist hate mob if the "hate mob" calmly lays out why he's wrong? He wants to be the Joker as a villain. But barely acknowledging him as more than the butt of a joke seems to have drastically diminished his posting capacity. 'Cause he's not coherent or principled enough to amount to anything more than a a sad, impotent joke when the retort is a simple deconstruction of his arguments.

People like him are going to do that anyways. They will invent new ways to be victims and push the goal posts to a new spot every minute. The problem is people thinking hate speech should receive a debate/explanation in the first place. His words do not deserve that kind of acknowledgement, and caring about being seen as 'the angry leftist hate mob' reeks of respectability politics which are also useless in the end.

[Doom Metal Alchemist]

I'm honestly shocked people in this thread are claiming Ginguy has actually responded to them. The last time I got a reply out of Ginguy must've been back when he was a regular in IB. That was a LONG time ago. Literally the only people I see him responding to are katt when she hands his ass to him (even that has been rare as of late) or to MD trying to steer to to the cult. So many of us have tried over and over and over again to have civil debates with him and he just ignores you when you debate him in good faith. There's no point in trying. That's why people respond with "STFU Nazi fascist" because the result is literally the exact same if you were to respond to him in good faith. Radio silence.

[Mix]

1 hour ago, Doom Metal Alchemist said:

Who is Ginguy?

Thank god somebody finally asked.

I've been lost for so long I started to think he may be their imaginary friend.

[naraku360]

6 hours ago, DragonSinger said:

People like him are going to do that anyways. They will invent new ways to be victims and push the goal posts to a new spot every minute. The problem is people thinking hate speech should receive a debate/explanation in the first place. His words do not deserve that kind of acknowledgement, and caring about being seen as 'the angry leftist hate mob' reeks of respectability politics which are also useless in the end.

They're going to shoot up that school anyway, so lets set up an ammo stand at the entrance.

[DragonSinger]

2 hours ago, naraku360 said:

They're going to shoot up that school anyway, so lets set up an ammo stand at the entrance.

You wanna go down that route, okay. Sometimes a simple rejection from a woman can set these assholes off. Do you think those women brought their deaths on themselves for not giving their future murderers more consideration?

[naraku360]

4 hours ago, DragonSinger said:

You wanna go down that route, okay. Sometimes a simple rejection from a woman can set these assholes off. Do you think those women brought their deaths on themselves for not giving their future murderers more consideration?

Do you believe conservatives should face social consequences for their actions?

We also face social consequences for our actions. I'm saying to give them nothing but more blanks than Ginguy shot into his favorite sock at the stroke of midnight coming off last year's most harsh no-nut November.

It's also very strange to make that comparison unless you think a school selling gun supplies would be acceptable.

Edited January 6, 2023 by naraku360

[DragonSinger]

On 1/5/2023 at 8:57 PM, naraku360 said:

Do you believe conservatives should face social consequences for their actions?

We also face social consequences for our actions. I'm saying to give them nothing but more blanks than Ginguy shot into his favorite sock at the stroke of midnight coming off last year's most harsh no-nut November.

It's also very strange to make that comparison unless you think a school selling gun supplies would be acceptable.

You escalated this into mass shootings when we're discussing very basic shitposting. Most mass shooters are misogynists who believe the world hasn't given them what they think they are owed. Rejection from women is a known trigger. Rejection carries negative connotation. You stated that negatively engaging with these people is the same as leaving ammo out, which is essentially victim blaming. So, do you think women targeted in mass shootings over rejection brought their deaths on themselves for not giving their future murderers more positive interactions?

[naraku360]

1 hour ago, DragonSinger said:

You escalated this into mass shootings when we're discussing very basic shitposting. Most mass shooters are misogynists who believe the world hasn't given them what they think they are owed. Rejection from women is a known trigger. Rejection carries negative connotation. You stated that negatively engaging with these people is the same as leaving ammo out, which is essentially victim blaming. So, do you think women targeted in mass shootings over rejection brought their deaths on themselves for not giving their future murderers more positive interactions?

You're saying the best method of dealing with people like Ginguy is to shout them down. I'm saying that looks bad to normies and makes it easier for them to smear the left. Did you forget 2016?

Right now, the right is the one looking ridiculous. I don't give a fuck what you say to or about Ginguy. He's a piece of shit loser. My escalation was an example of the logic you were using. Because neither you nor I would argue a school would not be responsible if their weapon store made it easier for kids to get weapons. We are responsible for the optics of the left. It has nothing to do with the paper-thin egos of snowflake conservatives.

And to answer your question:

If you think

A. It would be absurd to have a gun store in a school, and

B. A woman being murdered for a rejection does not hold blame

you are therefore suggesting a school with a gun store has done wrong and a woman rejecting advances has not. You and I both know the school with a gun store should be held responsible on some level because obviously they should. Neither you nor I believe the woman would be at fault. Therefore, it's a false equivalence.

Edited January 7, 2023 by naraku360

[DragonSinger]

1 hour ago, naraku360 said:

You're saying the best method of dealing with people like Ginguy is to shout them down. I'm saying that looks bad to normies and makes it easier for them to smear the left. Did you forget 2016?

Right now, the right is the one looking ridiculous. I don't give a fuck what you say to or about Ginguy. He's a piece of shit loser. My escalation was an example of the logic you were using. Because neither you nor I would argue a school would not be responsible if their weapon store made it easier for kids to get weapons. We are responsible for the optics of the left. It has nothing to do with the paper-thin egos of snowflake conservatives.

And to answer your question:

If you think

A. It would be absurd to have a gun store in a school, and

B. A woman being murdered for a rejection does not hold blame

you are therefore suggesting a school with a gun store has done wrong and a woman rejecting advances has not. You and I both know the school with a gun store should be held responsible on some level because obviously they should. Neither you nor I believe the woman would be at fault. Therefore, it's a false equivalence.

Your analogy is bullshit because someone shitposting online is rarely a motive for mass shootings. Let me try something else. There has been a large move from the far right to label the queer community as groomers. What have they done to deserve that? What ammo was given for them to be such a focus right now?

Edited January 7, 2023 by DragonSinger

[scoobdog]

I’d never thought I’d see two Scoobys arguing with each other…

[naraku360]

10 hours ago, DragonSinger said:

Your analogy is bullshit because someone shitposting online is rarely a motive for mass shootings. Let me try something else. There has been a large move from the far right to label the queer community as groomers. What have they done to deserve that? What ammo was given for them to be such a focus right now?

Have you ever heard of rhetoric?

The example was about the principle behind your argument of shouting people down. The literal example being a school shooting is irrelevant to the point. 

The point was about not making it easier for conservatives to smear us. You're the one hung up on the specific hypothetical.

Would you hold a parent responsible if they handed a child a fork and pointed to an exposed power outlet?

Should a conservative be held socially responsible if they start throwing out the n-word?

See? The example is interchangeable. It doesn't have to be a school shooting.

I also compared ammo to Ginguy jerking it into a sock after getting fucking destroyed in the midterms. But lets ignore the very clear use of euphemism for the sake of whining that the example was too extreme. That's how principles are tested: extremes.

I'm not going to spell this out again. I think this is more than clear enough and if you don't get it, someone else can explain.

[naraku360]

10 hours ago, scoobdog said:

I’d never thought I’d see two Scoobys arguing with each other…

 

[DragonSinger]

31 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

Have you ever heard of rhetoric?

The example was about the principle behind your argument of shouting people down. The literal example being a school shooting is irrelevant to the point. 

The point was about not making it easier for conservatives to smear us. You're the one hung up on the specific hypothetical.

Would you hold a parent responsible if they handed a child a fork and pointed to an exposed power outlet?

Should a conservative be held socially responsible if they start throwing out the n-word?

See? The example is interchangeable. It doesn't have to be a school shooting.

I also compared ammo to Ginguy jerking it into a sock after getting fucking destroyed in the midterms. But lets ignore the very clear use of euphemism for the sake of whining that the example was too extreme. That's how principles are tested: extremes.

I'm not going to spell this out again. I think this is more than clear enough and if you don't get it, someone else can explain.

What you don't get is people will have those thoughts no matter what I say because their behavior isn't rooted in rational behavior. 2016 didn't go down the way it did because people weren't nicer to bigots. It was the friggin opposite. The anger that should have been directed at bigots didn't really get a boost until Covid hit. 2016 went down that way because the general public doesn't give a fuck about minorities. It doesn't matter if people invested in Trump losing were sweet as pie when putting out their opinions, the majority of white folks felt safe if he won. So even if they weren't his supporters, they felt no urgency to vote for Hillary who pretty much only ran on not being Trump. We all didn't turn into Care Bears during the 2020 election either. Biden won not because there was more civility towards the Jingais in this country, he won because Trump showed himself to be a threat to the majority, and it turns out, it's not great to have a burnt orange toddler in charge during a pandemic.

[naraku360]

15 minutes ago, DragonSinger said:

What you don't get is people will have those thoughts no matter what I say because their behavior isn't rooted in rational behavior. 2016 didn't go down the way it did because people weren't nicer to bigots. It was the friggin opposite. The anger that should have been directed at bigots didn't really get a boost until Covid hit. 2016 went down that way because the general public doesn't give a fuck about minorities. It doesn't matter if people invested in Trump losing were sweet as pie when putting out their opinions, the majority of white folks felt safe if he won. So even if they weren't his supporters, they felt no urgency to vote for Hillary who pretty much only ran on not being Trump. We all didn't turn into Care Bears during the 2020 election either. Biden won not because there was more civility towards the Jingais in this country, he won because Trump showed himself to be a threat to the majority, and it turns out, it's not great to have a burnt orange toddler in charge during a pandemic.

I didn't say to be nice to bigots.

I said to not "shout them down" because that makes us look bad.

There is a difference between civility and kindness.

[SwimModSponges]

[naraku360]

45 minutes ago, SwimModSponges said:

I probably should've said 2014-2015 since I was actually attempting to reference the Gamergate -> alt-right trajectory that was pushed by clipping angry leftists. Of course these were generally out of context or outright lies. But the point is they were able to do it because they had been given material and a free reign to use it without adequate opposition.

Now there are a lot of leftists who are prepared to debate these things and remaining composed makes it harder to clip. I want to cut off the supply chain so all they can do is tie their own nooses.

I've been regularly cornering conservative friends for their beliefs by simply asking questions these days. I couldn't do that when I shouted them down.

I'm not suggesting this to deradicalize the too far gone. I'm suggesting it to pull the people around them away from the extremist views.

Edited January 7, 2023 by naraku360

[DragonSinger]

32 minutes ago, SwimModSponges said:

Not exactly a winning strategy which is why the correct response is this:

 

6 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

I probably should've said 2014-2015 since I was actually attempting to reference the Gamergate -> alt-right trajectory that was pushed by clipping angry leftists. Of course these were generally out of context or outright lies. But the point is they were able to do it because they had been given material and a free reign to use it without adequate opposition.

Now there are a lot of leftists who are prepared to debate these things and remaining composed makes it harder to clip. I want to cut off the supply chain so all they can do is tie their own nooses.

I've been regularly cornering conservative friends for their beliefs by simply asking questions these days. I couldn't do that when I shouted them down.

I'm not suggesting this to deradicalize the too far gone. I'm suggesting it to pull the people around them away from the extremist views.

I really shouldn't have held back earlier and said this is about your shitty white friends. But good luck with thinking you're going to change these kinds of folks:

 

[SwimModSponges]

I'm 100% in favor of not being civil with people, y'all know that.

But I say you gottta use some finesse. 

Just a straight up "Fuck you" is so general when you could say something like "***************************************"

And I'm not saying that so don't ban me.

I'm just saying you could say something like that.

Edited January 7, 2023 by SwimModSponges

[DragonSinger]

*Published author exits the conversation*

[SwimModSponges]

I'm totally agreeing with you, btw, and I'm sorry if it's coming across dickish because I'm being a dick.

The clinton gif was sarcastic.

[cyberbully]

20 minutes ago, DragonSinger said:

*Published author exits the conversation*

Hey, sometimes you have to spell that shit out. 

[scoobdog]

FWIW, not sure what the point of raku arguing civility is.  Civility isn't about merit:  you're civil to the people you don't want to engage, and you're uncivil to the people you do.  It's fine to be civil if you're asking someone to explain something with an open mind, but too few people have an open mind.  When someone demands you be civil as a condition for listening to an argument, they're really only interested in neutering your argument and confirming their own biases without having to be confrontational.  Ultimately, you're not going to change people's minds with argument - they need to see how their attitudes and actions have consequences and they have to deal with those consequences.  If that means going low, then so be it.

[katt_goddess]

My take on things is that every time someone tells Jingai to f himself, he just bad touches himself with glee and potentially drags a screen shot to whatever 'friends' he might have elsewhere to show what a victim he is.

My replies give him blue balls. 

[naraku360]

2 hours ago, DragonSinger said:

Not exactly a winning strategy which is why the correct response is this:

 

I really shouldn't have held back earlier and said this is about your shitty white friends. But good luck with thinking you're going to change these kinds of folks:

 

You mean my Syrian-Arabic, African-American, and Filipino roommates? Those "white" friends...?

No, it's about doing what we can to be productive in pushing leftist beliefs. The point is to not behave in ways that benefit the right. You're literally making the same argument Nabs does when he argues that we should go after Democrats because they aren't good enough even if it knowingly helps the obviously worse Republicans.

[naraku360]

22 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

FWIW, not sure what the point of raku arguing civility is.  Civility isn't about merit:  you're civil to the people you don't want to engage, and you're uncivil to the people you do.  It's fine to be civil if you're asking someone to explain something with an open mind, but too few people have an open mind.  When someone demands you be civil as a condition for listening to an argument, they're really only interested in neutering your argument and confirming their own biases without having to be confrontational.  Ultimately, you're not going to change people's minds with argument - they need to see how their attitudes and actions have consequences and they have to deal with those consequences.  If that means going low, then so be it.

I'm responding to shouting people down, as stated several times.

I've also said, multiple times, that the purpose of civility boils down to optics to the average, non-political person. If you want to be shitty to people like Jingai, clearly I've shown that I have no interest in being nice to him. When in public, unfortunately civility does have an impact on the perception of the left and yelling insults at people is counterproductive toward drawing people away from right-wing extremism. It is not, nor ever will be, about being nice to disingenuous frauds like Jingai.