New Rules Discussion

[Raptorpat]

We've been working on revising/resetting the site's rules. Some of you have been asking for years, some of you may have not. The draft isn't finished (don't worry, we aren't doing anything earth-shattering and it's a lot of basic stuff, there's just not a lot of time to work on it), but you may have seen the rollout of the clarified bright-line rule on no pornography or explicit nudity. Or you may have seen originally unrelated drama that merged into uncertainty over new rules, creating a godforsaken leviathan of bullshit. Or you may have been an active participant in said bullshit.

Anyways - this thread will be used to convey information on the rules, answer questions, take legitimate input, and at some point share a draft before eventually implementing it.

[stilgar]

So, what are the rules? And make em concise.

[Sawdamizer]

Define legitimate input?

[Raptorpat]

8 minutes ago, stilgar said:

So, what are the rules? And make em concise.

Fundamentally, it's broken into three categories:

• User Safety
• Content
• Civility

User safety is things like no doxing for example. Content is things like the aforementioned porn rule, content ownership, disturbing content, malicious spamming. Civility is things like bigotry, or being malicious/toxic.

I haven't finished filling out bright-line things within those categories, but I also want the flexibility to not have to fight people trying to find gray area that violates the intent but not the words.

[Raptorpat]

40 minutes ago, Sawdamizer said:

Define legitimate input?

legitimate - (adjective) not spurious or unjustified; genuine:

input - (noun) contribution of information, ideas, opinions, or the like:

[Sawdamizer]

8 minutes ago, Raptorpat said:

legitimate - (adjective) not spurious or unjustified; genuine:

input - (noun) contribution of information, ideas, opinions, or the like:

I thought we were cooler than this

[revelations]

Malicious/toxic should be tolerated in DF.

I mean, we should be able to go balls to walls in there. 

Post a disclaimer with an agreement that the users have to acknowledge before entering, even after their post count gets them there. They have to agree to the terms that if you can't handle it, don't go inside. Disclaimers work for South Park. They can surely work here. You're not liable for anything. Reports that are not for racism, threats or bigotry, result in the reporter getting a warning. Have one mod set aside just for DF. General Noise is a lot of ground to cover. Make a DF'er a mod of just the DF folder, to handle the few cases that are deemed rule breakers. Your problems would be solved then.

No bigotry or racism or threats. That doesn't need to fly anywhere.

 

[SwimModSponges]

I volunteer for DF mod.

[scoobdog]

So...

What's this I hear about the DF being turned into another Rants or FFA?

[revelations]

There should be a reevaluation of the mods too.

One in particular.

[NaBarney]

Here are my recommendations

Spoiler

 

Also once the New Rules drop I strongly suggest posting this

Spoiler

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by NaBarney

[1pooh4u]

Leave dumpster fires alone and stop listening to people about what you should do with dumpster fires from people that don’t give a fuck about it. Get new fuckin mods if you want new rules. 

[1pooh4u]

@Raptorpat this is your great idea. Get input from people that don’t frequent a spot to tell you how it should be run. That’s why you listen to people telling you the post count is treated like a “reward”. That completely ignores the fact that your shitty  moderators don’t MODERATE.  If they think people are doing that warn and ban. But that’s not happening.  You believe it cuz someone said so

[1pooh4u]

The post count is a buffer so users can see it’s just one small patch of a very nice community. Raise the post count but don’t get rid of the folder because people with one fuckin brain cell cried about it. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by 1pooh4u

[stilgar]

As someone who has been in DF since the very beginning I just want to say lighten the fuck up. You are all going crazy because you think the special place you like may change. Who gives a fuck. If they get rid of it than all they will do is create more work for themselves and they know that. DF isn't going anywhere. So calm the fuck down and stop acting like posting there makes you special. You are all acting like late stage IBers.

[Raptorpat]

temporarily locked to sort through replies and because most of this is not what this thread is for

[Raptorpat]

On 5/29/2021 at 9:45 PM, scoobdog said:

So...

What's this I hear about the DF being turned into another Rants or FFA?

There are a lot of rumors, conspiracies, drama, and rage.

I'm not here to blow up the folder, or insert complicated instructions that people have to memorize. Its users obviously still want a place where they can relax and let loose, get into arguments, and otherwise operate under a more lax ruleset. That formula isn't really going to change. I don't think the folder will remain a dumping ground for drama elsewhere, and I just want it to be clear that, of the three legs of the stool, the red lines that come with user safety (no doxing, stalking, threats, things like that) still apply and there's some bare floor in regards to the content and civility components (no bigotry, porn, snuff videos, etc.). I want whatever heated activity that goes on in there to stay within its confines, and for people to know that particularly malicious, boundary-crossing activity which violates the trust in which the freedom of the folder is based, might not be listed in the rules but may still be actionable.

I don't think that's a big deal. I think it's entirely reasonable and fair.

[Raptorpat]

Anyways, here's the current draft:

Quote

Hello new forum member and/or random internet surfer and welcome to the UnevenEdge Message Boards. Here are the forum guidelines (subject to changes and updates):

Logging In:
Upon registration, you may have to wait to get approval before logging in with your new screen name. Users must register their account with a valid email address. While users can customize their accounts, including whether or not they want to receive email notifications or occasional updates, accounts registered with fake or temporary email addresses may be banned.

If you are having problems logging in, or would like to assist in calling attention to your approval process, “Guests” can post on the Password Recovery and Mod Support board. Due to the occasional spambot slipping through, we ask that you don't click any links on the Password Recovery board unless posted by an admin or moderator.

Reporting:
If you would like to report abuse or violations, or make a suggestion, users are encouraged to submit reports about incidents using the button on the top right of individual posts. Please include a description and/or any additional evidence like screenshots or links. A moderator or admin will respond to the report, and may reach out directly to follow up with you as needed.

UEMB Rules:
Failing to follow the community guidelines as described below carries consequences. Infractions may result in a temporary or permanent ban from the Forum. Upon repeat offenses, or if we believe you are not acting in good faith, you may be permanently removed from the community. Any former user attempting to evade permanent removal will be treated as “ban-on-sight”. 

User Safety

• This is an 18+ community. Those under 18 should not be posting here. Any underage member account will be banned immediately upon discovery.
• No unsolicited advertising, in forums or in PMs. We have spaces for sharing user creations and a shameless plug on its own isn’t a problem, however ad spam is not allowed on the Forum. It not only creates phishing risk, but it's really annoying. Unsolicited advertising in PMs will result in a ban. 
• Do not dox. This includes sharing personal information of yourself or of another member. Do not maliciously propagate another user’s personal information regardless of whether it was intentionally or unintentionally shared beforehand by that person or a third party. 
• Do not threaten or stalk. Do not threaten other members, in any capacity. Do not follow other members around who do not want to be followed. This includes other sites, such as social media.
• Extreme emotional issues. Though we have boards and threads conducive to venting, do not talk about heavy psychological issues, including suicide/self-harm, as an alternative to seeking help from a professional. To that end, do not antagonize members in emotional crisis.
• We reserve the right to address anything else deemed at that time to be a threat to user safety and to expound upon this list in the future. Particularly egregious cases may be addressed beyond the forum as needed.

Civility

• Don't be toxic. This includes harassment, flaming, starting unnecessary arguments, backhanded or malicious comments, purposefully annoying members or making them uncomfortable, promoting self-harm, etc., whether on a main or an alt. If a member asks you to stop bothering them, please do so.
• Discrimination and bigotry will not be tolerated. This includes, racism, transphobia/homophobia, religious, ableist, misogyny, and other forms of discrimination, including hate speech or the use of slurs in any context (“ironic” or “joking” instances are not acceptable).
• Please be respectful and understanding of the staff team. Respect the decisions made by all staff, they are (mostly) human too. When you are asked to stop, you are expected to listen and not argue about it publicly (use PMs or the Hey Mod! thread). Avoid backseat moderating/mini-modding and avoid tagging staff unless something needs immediate attention.
• We recognize this list may not encapsulate every aspect of interpersonal civility. We reserve the right to act as needed or expand this list further.

Content

• No excessive spamming. Flooding a board or thread maliciously with emotes, text-walls, images, repeated messages, etc. is not allowed.
• Don't post harmful, violent, or disturbing content. Harmful content includes rapidly flashing images, images that crash a browser, and suspicious links/attachments. Violent or disturbing content includes: gore, excess blood, scat, scenery connected to deaths, animal cruelty, footage of terrorist attacks or tragic accidents, etc.
• NSFW content. Spoiler-tag NSFW content and provide a warning. Do not post explicit nudity or pornography. We reserve the right to spoiler tag content that we deem to be NSFW.
• Illegal Content. Do not post illegal content.
• Extreme, controversial, and sensitive content. We reserve the right to remove or delete any content from the board at any time, as well as ban users who push the boundaries on extreme, controversial, or sensitive content. This includes rape jokes, hate speech, nazi propaganda, illegal activities, etc.
• Content ownership issues. If you notice content that is posted on the boards without permission, please submit a report and we will remove it.
• We recognize this list may not encapsulate every aspect of content creation. We reserve the right to act as needed or expand this list further.

*** Note on Civility & Content: On most sections of the forum, a clear and direct insult directed at another member, instead of an idea or argument, may be taken action against or removed. If a thread devolves into seemingly pointless back-and-forth arguing, or civilly breaks down, that thread may be removed from the board, or split at the point the trouble started, with that section of the thread being disposed of, or moved. Off-topic threads may be relocated to the proper board and repeat or related threads may be merged. However, different sections of the forum may be treated slightly differently regarding civility and post content, as detailed below. Note that all User Safety rules remain in effect on all boards at all times.

In the Rants & Editorials board, heated debate is allowed which may exceed the general rules on civility and content. Be advised that if you engage in debate, and/or post your opinions, those opinions will have feedback and people will post their own judgments/opinions in kind regarding you and your posted opinions. Those may include observations of a caustic nature, as there is more leeway in that area for expression of personal opinions. A unique ruleset on content and civility is in place for Rants, available here. [Editing Note: Rants rules format will be cleaned up to conform, and/or may be summarized here]

In the Dumpster Fires board, content and civility rules are dialed to a minimum threshold, as long as the context of the activity is completely confined to the Dumpster Fires board. Activity that leaks into other folders that would otherwise violate the general rules will be acted on. In contrast to Rants & Editorials, threads in this board don't necessarily have to be as coherent topically, and can exist solely for the purposes of crassness. In addition to all User Safety rules, the following content and civility rules remain in effect in Dumpster Fires:

• Discrimination and bigotry will not be tolerated. This includes, racism, transphobia/homophobia, religious, and other forms of discrimination, including hate speech or the use of slurs in any context (“ironic” or “joking” instances are not acceptable).
• Don't post harmful, violent, or disturbing content. Harmful content includes rapidly flashing images, images that crash a browser, and suspicious links/attachments. Violent or disturbing content includes: gore, excess blood, scat, scenery connected to deaths, animal cruelty, footage of terrorist attacks or tragic accidents, etc.
• NSFW content. Spoiler-tag NSFW content and provide a warning. Do not post explicit nudity or pornography. We reserve the right to spoiler tag content that we deem to be NSFW.
• Illegal Content. Do not post illegal content.
• Content ownership issues. If you notice content that is posted on the boards without permission, please submit a report and we will remove it.
• We reserve the right to add to this list as needed, as well as act on particularly malicious, boundary-crossing activity which violates the trust in which the freedoms of the folder are based.

Not necessarily done, constructive criticism is welcome.

[scoobdog]

Looks good man.

No posting assholes?

[Raptorpat]

Just now, scoobdog said:

No posting assholes?

I took someone's sage questions and tweaked the language to hopefully be more clear. "no explicit nudity or pornography" - I think I had it reversed in the original draft and it was confusing. Explicit nudity includes things above the thighs and below the belly button (panic wrote a more specific list for the aspiring artists out there if people don't get the point), and pornography is pornography. It's free everywhere else on the internet.

5 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

No posting assholes?

the alternative answer is "as this night has proven, we're all posting assholes"

[scoobdog]

I like that.  Much better.

[Raptorpat]

Also worth mentioning - a follow-up to this is an internal conversation on how to standardize moderating actions based on the categories etc. Might possibly standardize warning points and set up point-based trigger bans.

It's a conversation yet to happen, so I don't have an answer yet, but things to think about.

[scoobdog]

If you set up a point system, will you have to reset the current accrued points?

[Raptorpat]

Yeah, if we did that we'd have to figure out if existing points would count towards it, or just void all existing warning points.

[scoobdog]

I don't think it would be particularly fair to have the points suddenly count after years of them not counting.  But it would be nice to see the system actually be implemented.

[scoobdog]

Also, how will clubs be moderated?

[Raptorpat]

4 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

I don't think it would be particularly fair to have the points suddenly count after years of them not counting.  But it would be nice to see the system actually be implemented.

I meant if the system automatically counts old points, otherwise we'd toss them. Fresh start either way.

4 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

Also, how will clubs be moderated?

This is a good question, there's never really been a serious push to use clubs. I'd have to think about whether to open the door to differentiation if people seriously wanted to do that. Have to look into it.

[scoobdog]

If there were a push to utilize the clubs system, do you forsee them being used to contain / restrict to certain subjects of interactions?

[André Toulon]

Aj, our good faith babbler trying to discuss amicably.....

But if i troll one of us on twitter, i can get banned here....seems like overreach to me.

No another thing, will reports used by the neat little flag button, or can i just at you in discord and complain so no one gets to see me complain.

Edited May 31, 2021 by André Toulon

[Sawdamizer]

How many times per week can I request IP addresses from users?

is there going to be a designated mod for IP address requests?

Edited May 31, 2021 by Sawdamizer

[abomination]

Can people be banned on site for mentioning my name, even in normal conversation?

[UwP]

Reptar it looks wonderful. Great job.

[ghostrek]

On 5/29/2021 at 5:29 PM, Raptorpat said:

We've been working on revising/resetting the site's rules. Some of you have been asking for years, some of you may have not. The draft isn't finished (don't worry, we aren't doing anything earth-shattering and it's a lot of basic stuff, there's just not a lot of time to work on it), but you may have seen the rollout of the clarified bright-line rule on no pornography or explicit nudity. Or you may have seen originally unrelated drama that merged into uncertainty over new rules, creating a godforsaken leviathan of bullshit. Or you may have been an active participant in said bullshit.

Anyways - this thread will be used to convey information on the rules, answer questions, take legitimate input, and at some point share a draft before eventually implementing it.

@Raptorpatwould I be impacted by said new rules

Edited May 31, 2021 by ghostrek

[André Toulon]

40 minutes ago, ghostrek said:

@Raptorpatwould I be impacted by said new rules

How about reading them.

But in general, you can make all the threads in ffa, but no one will reply becaise most of us are forbidden to talk to you in a less than sweet way, so no one will talk to you.....enjoy

[Raptorpat]

No one gets IP addresses, there's a difference between outting a stalker troll alt by matching IPs (aka one of the things I have to deal with regularly) and actually sharing IP addresses.

That's a stupid misrepresentation that serves nothing.

[André Toulon]

5 minutes ago, Raptorpat said:

No one gets IP addresses, there's a difference between outting a stalker troll alt by matching IPs (aka one of the things I have to deal with regularly) and actually sharing IP addresses.

That's a stupid misrepresentation that serves nothing.

Outting the ip to another regular users though, whats the point of that....i asked for the westpark ip and got shit.

Not that i cared that you shared it, i was never hiding and it hilarious how stupid the witch hunt was when it was obviously me, but dont blow smoke up my ass pat. 

 

 

[abomination]

I don't think it's a misrepresentation at all. 

Especially considering a user who is not a mod blasted buddy, saying his ip address is what led them to find out buddy was Pirate Deity.

Got the receipt to prove that one too.

[abomination]

[Raptorpat]

Yes, the actual IP address was buddy, and I conveyed that fact - not the IP address itself.

To that end, Westpark and Nabs don't share an IP - but Westpark wasn't trolling you for the better part of a day either. He disappeared after I warned him for casual racism.

[André Toulon]

1 minute ago, Raptorpat said:

Yes, the actual IP address was buddy, and I conveyed that fact - not the IP address itself.

To that end, Westpark and Nabs don't share an IP - but Westpark wasn't trolling you for the better part of a day either. He disappeared after I warned him for casual racism.

In what way did my account troll. I just engaged in normal conversation after making my first post quoting the real PD almost verbatim.

So the ban had 2 reasons....one for troll account, which i get....but another for civility.

Well, whats civility. I was completely civil, i just made some people mad for simply existing.

How is that not an issue....and again, im not looking for some droned out floor show of excuses.....all i want and all ive ever wanted was it to be said "we do what ever we want"

 

[Raptorpat]

9 minutes ago, André Toulon said:

In what way did my account troll. I just engaged in normal conversation after making my first post quoting the real PD almost verbatim.

So the ban had 2 reasons....one for troll account, which i get....but another for civility.

Civility is the general category, if you bothered to read the thread. You clearly created an account with someone else's account name from another site and quoted them verbatim from that site to elicit a reaction. There's no particular nuance beyond that which matters.

9 minutes ago, André Toulon said:

Well, whats civility. I was completely civil, i just made some people mad for simply existing.

Tentatively, the draft rules say:

Civility

• Don't be toxic. This includes harassment, flaming, starting unnecessary arguments, backhanded or malicious comments, purposefully annoying members or making them uncomfortable, promoting self-harm, etc. If a member asks you to stop bothering them, please do so.
• Discrimination and bigotry will not be tolerated. This includes, racism, transphobia/homophobia, religious, ableist, misogyny, and other forms of discrimination, including hate speech or the use of slurs in any context (“ironic” or “joking” instances are not acceptable).
• Please be respectful and understanding of the staff team. Respect the decisions made by all staff, they are (mostly) human too. When you are asked to stop, you are expected to listen and not argue about it publicly (use PMs or the Hey Mod! thread). Avoid backseat moderating/mini-modding and avoid tagging staff unless something needs immediate attention.
• We recognize this list may not encapsulate every aspect of interpersonal civility. We reserve the right to act as needed or expand this list further.

10 minutes ago, André Toulon said:

im not looking for some droned out floor show of excuses.....all i want and all ive ever wanted was it to be said "we do what ever we want"

The whole point of this exercise is that people have been saying for four years we don't have real rules, and that we've been winging it - which is true. And this whole thing is supposed to standardize the decision making to a degree.

If all this boils down to you thinking I can't distinguish between my or my friends' personal opinions and formal decision-making, or that this is a concerted plot to kick you personally off the site, I must be extremely incompetent in your mind given that, if I do whatever I want, I could just spotban you or anyone else without needing to throw away my holiday weekend dealing with your drama.

[André Toulon]

8 minutes ago, Raptorpat said:

Civility is the general category, if you bothered to read the thread. You clearly created an account with someone else's account name from another site and quoted them verbatim from that site to elicit a reaction. There's no particular nuance beyond that which matters.

Tentatively, the draft rules say:

Civility

• Don't be toxic. This includes harassment, flaming, starting unnecessary arguments, backhanded or malicious comments, purposefully annoying members or making them uncomfortable, promoting self-harm, etc. If a member asks you to stop bothering them, please do so.
• Discrimination and bigotry will not be tolerated. This includes, racism, transphobia/homophobia, religious, ableist, misogyny, and other forms of discrimination, including hate speech or the use of slurs in any context (“ironic” or “joking” instances are not acceptable).
• Please be respectful and understanding of the staff team. Respect the decisions made by all staff, they are (mostly) human too. When you are asked to stop, you are expected to listen and not argue about it publicly (use PMs or the Hey Mod! thread). Avoid backseat moderating/mini-modding and avoid tagging staff unless something needs immediate attention.
• We recognize this list may not encapsulate every aspect of interpersonal civility. We reserve the right to act as needed or expand this list further.

The whole point of this exercise is that people have been saying for four years we don't have real rules, and that we've been winging it - which is true. And this whole thing is supposed to standardize the decision making to a degree.

If all this boils down to you thinking I can't distinguish between my or my friends' personal opinions and formal decision-making, or that this is a concerted plot to kick you personally off the site, I must be extremely incompetent in your mind given that, if I do whatever I want, I could just spotban you or anyone else without needing to throw away my holiday weekend dealing with your drama.

So if i quoted verbatim, then it obvious i saw how you, the one who is in charge, ridicule DF. 

And dont shuffle my words....youre not incompetent, you're biased, and if that enough to make you start issuing bans so you can enjoy you weekend, it'll only continue to prove me right.

I gave you my suggestions in good faith, only to see an hour later that you weren't playing the same way.

You tell me, how should i interpret that. 

I'm sorry the emails came out, Hillary....but is the solution to silence the media?

Edited May 31, 2021 by André Toulon

[abomination]

let me jump in on this bandwagon.

we have more than one reason to believe that you and/or your mods show favoritism.

just like in this very thread yesterday, i was banned.

for what exactly?

i mean, no one else was banned, and i sure as hell wasn't the only one going on about things in here.

it's all good. don't get me wrong. i'm used to being banned and getting warnings and all that.

i just like to keep it real and fair.

panic banned my other other account because i mentioned a name. no other reason.

so, you put yourself in our shoes, and try to see it any other way than how we see it.

also, here i was thinking my point about being banned from df had finally gotten across, so access was given to me, since that's where i call home, but nope. it was a suggestion by insane fox, who barely ever goes there, that the post limit be removed. when what we've been wanting was for it to be raised. 

again. listening to the discord people. i ask you again, try to see things from our perspective. then you might understand.

[panic]

12 minutes ago, abomination said:

i just like to keep it real and fair.

panic banned my other other account because i mentioned a name. no other reason.

 

Quote

Going off topic to flame Packard in FFA, as well as taking shots at others who are not apart of the thread. This is not DF.

 

Quote

Don't be toxic. This includes harassment, flaming, starting unnecessary arguments, backhanded or malicious comments, purposefully annoying members

This. This is you. This is why you were banned. You have a history of doing this over and over. You don't learn. You don't take any responsibility. This shit needs to stop.

These rules are not being implemented to change DF; they are here to stop the entire board from being DF. If someone you don't like enters DF, mess with them there. You don't get to follow them around and harass them elsewhere.

[Raptorpat]

I've never liked the DF concept, and I've always been open about thinking the specific cocktail was a mistake from the start. I've already articulated the ins and outs, don't really need to get into it. Not everyone who enjoys it is a problem, but it creates perverse incentives to cause trouble and fosters elitist bullshit.

However, I'm also a realist and it's my job to work within reality and not the inside of my head. Your advice was welcome and was factored in as I was drafting this, and it will be factored in in the subsequent conversation about moderation.

54 minutes ago, abomination said:

here i was thinking my point about being banned from df had finally gotten across, so access was given to me, since that's where i call home, but nope.

If people can't recognize this attitude is literal cancer, I don't know what to tell you. This is completely 100% where the flippant comments about creating a club come from.

[abomination]

16 minutes ago, Raptorpat said:

I've never liked the DF concept, and I've always been open about thinking the specific cocktail was a mistake from the start. I've already articulated the ins and outs, don't really need to get into it. Not everyone who enjoys it is a problem, but it creates perverse incentives to cause trouble and fosters elitist bullshit.

However, I'm also a realist and it's my job to work within reality and not the inside of my head. Your advice was welcome and was factored in as I was drafting this, and it will be factored in in the subsequent conversation about moderation.

If people can't recognize this attitude is literal cancer, I don't know what to tell you. This is completely 100% where the flippant comments about creating a club come from.

it's not literal cancer. no one is dying from the toxicity here.

i look forward to hearing about the moderation conversation when that happens.

[Raptorpat]

"We need to make it even more exclusive - higher post count gate, double it! But also I got banned so you need to make an exception for me."

gtfoh with that

[abomination]

25 minutes ago, panic said:

 

 

This. This is you. This is why you were banned. You have a history of doing this over and over. You don't learn. You don't take any responsibility. This shit needs to stop.

These rules are not being implemented to change DF; they are here to stop the entire board from being DF. If someone you don't like enters DF, mess with them there. You don't get to follow them around and harass them elsewhere.

if someone i don't like comes into dumpster fires, they are fair game. i am allowed within the parameters of the board laws to mess with them there. and that's the only take away that i need. i will hold this comment as the receipt i need for future df goings-on. and i will pull out this receipt when you think about giving me a ban in df. 

thank you for making that clear.

[abomination]

1 minute ago, Raptorpat said:

"We need to make it even more exclusive - higher post count gate, double it! But also I got banned so you need to make an exception for me."

gtfoh with that

dude, i have already had access to df on multiple accounts. 

it's not like it's some kind of reward my virgin eyes have never seen before. 

that's what i was saying.

y'all didn't want me posting in ffa, since y'all locked every fucking thread i made.

so, put my ass back in df where i can ''legally'' be an asshole.

that was my point.

don't get it twisted. 

[Raptorpat]

It's a stupid point, given that it's tethered to the account and not the person.