Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion (spoilers)

[wacky1980]

1 hour ago, Opium said:

That has nothing to do with what the characters should be thinking. In fact, that's probably the problem; they got so caught up in external plotting that they forgot that their characters are supposed to be clueless as to their fates. And the fact that they planned this for four years should really shut down any hype for the remaining three episodes. We're dealing with frauds who found it more pertinent to have a zombie polar bear in the show than an appropriate sendoff to the biggest threat in the series.

i guess i'll just have to disagree with you. if the writers know what they plan on doing with the plot, then why drive the story away from it? sending everyone off to the south only creates another messy tangent that will require additional crap to bring them back into the fold. keeping everyone at winterfell, however out-of-line it may have been from a tactical standpoint, wraps up the night king storyline and gives the writers three episodes to focus solely on bringing the main plot to a close.

if you recall, this last two seasons was supposed to take considerably longer. the fact that storylines have escalated since about halfway through season 7 means we're getting all the important bits and glossing over plot holes and inconsistencies. yeah, it's a shitty way to end a series that had real promise. but if we'd waited for grrm to lead the show's writers to a conclusion (and he did have some input on the show's conclusion) then there'd have been a several year hiatus, or thirteen seasons where the plot moves at a snail's pace and everyone loses interest long before we get to where we are. i'm not thrilled with how the last episode turned out, but i'm willing to accept it if it means we can finally get this damn thing over with.

[Opium]

1 minute ago, wacky1980 said:

i guess i'll just have to disagree with you. if the writers know what they plan on doing with the plot, then why drive the story away from it? sending everyone off to the south only creates another messy tangent that will require additional crap to bring them back into the fold. keeping everyone at winterfell, however out-of-line it may have been from a tactical standpoint, wraps up the night king storyline and gives the writers three episodes to focus solely on bringing the main plot to a close.

if you recall, this last two seasons was supposed to take considerably longer. the fact that storylines have escalated since about halfway through season 7 means we're getting all the important bits and glossing over plot holes and inconsistencies. yeah, it's a shitty way to end a series that had real promise. but if we'd waited for grrm to lead the show's writers to a conclusion (and he did have some input on the show's conclusion) then there'd have been a several year hiatus, or thirteen seasons where the plot moves at a snail's pace and everyone loses interest long before we get to where we are. i'm not thrilled with how the last episode turned out, but i'm willing to accept it if it means we can finally get this damn thing over with.

Because their plot is lazy and a slap to the face to anyone invested with a working brain. If reasonable plotting brings a "messy tangent" then you should change your plot to something better. And three episodes isn't even enough to close out the main plot, and I guarantee the next two will be set-up and nothing more till the last episode -- with that being rushed and bullshit just like the Night King war.

Getting this damn thing over with is exactly the problem, and it's not a good reason to shit on everything that's been developed. It's lazy.

[wacky1980]

6 minutes ago, Opium said:

Because their plot is lazy and a slap to the face to anyone invested with a working brain. If reasonable plotting brings a "messy tangent" then you should change your plot to something better. And three episodes isn't even enough to close out the main plot, and I guarantee the next two will be set-up and nothing more till the last episode -- with that being rushed and bullshit just like the Night King war.

Getting this damn thing over with is exactly the problem, and it's not a good reason to shit on everything that's been developed. It's lazy.

you're touching on the whole thing dane was implying: that someone would have to be stupid to enjoy the show at this point. pretentious bullshit aside, i have no problems with the show not meeting the high expectations it's created for itself. everyone's so laughably angry that they're not getting the show they deserve. because a tv series about dragons and oracles feels forced and has some lazy storytelling. gimme a break mate.

[Opium]

Just now, wacky1980 said:

you're touching on the whole thing dane was implying: that someone would have to be stupid to enjoy the show at this point. pretentious bullshit aside, i have no problems with the show not meeting the high expectations it's created for itself. everyone's so laughably angry that they're not getting the show they deserve. because a tv series about dragons and oracles feels forced and has some lazy storytelling. gimme a break mate.

He implied it, but I actually said that people who enjoy it are displaying stupidity.

But I don't ultimately care if they do or not. I'm not angry about it, but I'm going to express my concerns for it all the same. The show used to be about more than dragons and oracles. George had a point to make, and instead of respecting that point, the showrunners turned it into Xena Warrior Princess.

Personally, I think people should respect themselves enough to expect more from what they decide to spend their time with. The showrunners seem fine with wasting 8 years of mine.

[wacky1980]

22 minutes ago, Opium said:

He implied it, but I actually said that people who enjoy it are displaying stupidity.

But I don't ultimately care if they do or not. I'm not angry about it, but I'm going to express my concerns for it all the same. The show used to be about more than dragons and oracles. George had a point to make, and instead of respecting that point, the showrunners turned it into Xena Warrior Princess.

Personally, I think people should respect themselves enough to expect more from what they decide to spend their time with. The showrunners seem fine with wasting 8 years of mine.

the only one wasting their time in this equation is you. i feel as though i'm spending my time in a very appropriate manner by indulging my interest in a fantasy tv series. if you're upset that the show veered away from the books, then don't watch the show. wait for the books. but it's not necessary to shit on people who feel differently. i gave up on walking dead for very similar reasons, but i don't fault people who still watch and enjoy it. 

there's always downton abbey if you need to feel sophisticated while you stare at pixels.

[DragonSinger]

49 minutes ago, Opium said:

He implied it, but I actually said that people who enjoy it are displaying stupidity.

But I don't ultimately care if they do or not. I'm not angry about it, but I'm going to express my concerns for it all the same. The show used to be about more than dragons and oracles. George had a point to make, and instead of respecting that point, the showrunners turned it into Xena Warrior Princess.

Personally, I think people should respect themselves enough to expect more from what they decide to spend their time with. The showrunners seem fine with wasting 8 years of mine.

Please elaborate.

[Opium]

1 hour ago, wacky1980 said:

the only one wasting their time in this equation is you. i feel as though i'm spending my time in a very appropriate manner by indulging my interest in a fantasy tv series. if you're upset that the show veered away from the books, then don't watch the show. wait for the books. but it's not necessary to shit on people who feel differently. i gave up on walking dead for very similar reasons, but i don't fault people who still watch and enjoy it. 

there's always downton abbey if you need to feel sophisticated while you stare at pixels.

I'm not -- or at least wasn't -- shitting on anybody for liking it. I feel like they're stupid, but I don't hound them on it. I aired my grievances, as we all do here. It was people who liked it that posted here and had a problem with the episode being negatively received.

And no, what part of the 8 year investment concept is lost on you? I want to see how this ends just like everybody else, even if I have absolutely no faith in the conclusion being anything more than a trend on Twitter. Appreciating and evaluating writing in a television show isn't pretension. Just because you don't actually want to think about what you're consuming doesn't mean the opposite is unreasonable.

But your attitude towards critical thinking says more about you than about me.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Opium

[Opium]

51 minutes ago, SorceressPol said:

Please elaborate.

The show stopped being about political machinations and instead became about heroes and character fan service. Basically 90's fantasy.

Which would be fine if it wasn't something else before.

[wacky1980]

20 minutes ago, Opium said:

what part of the 8 year investment concept is lost on you?

the vast majority of shows evolve over their lifespan, to reflect changes in culture or politics, or to adapt to staffing changes, to work within budget constraints, or simply as a response to criticism or testing. if you feel you've been cheated on because the first 8 years (i thought it was just 4 years a page ago? maybe that was someone else) of your viewing experience was good but then the show changed on you, ... sorry for your loss, i suppose. but you're in the minority. i guarantee you that there are far more people who are still satisfied with the show's trajectory, even including the stumbles it's taken.

[Opium]

1 hour ago, wacky1980 said:

the vast majority of shows evolve over their lifespan, to reflect changes in culture or politics, or to adapt to staffing changes, to work within budget constraints, or simply as a response to criticism or testing. if you feel you've been cheated on because the first 8 years (i thought it was just 4 years a page ago? maybe that was someone else) of your viewing experience was good but then the show changed on you, ... sorry for your loss, i suppose. but you're in the minority. i guarantee you that there are far more people who are still satisfied with the show's trajectory, even including the stumbles it's taken.

I know about the technicalities of the business, bud. That's besides the point. You don't excuse shit because shit happens -- it's still shit. Budget isn't the issue here, HBO gave them a ton of cash. The time restraints are on them too, considering the network is fine with making money off the series. I was entertained enough to still call the show "good" up until this point, in which I would now tell people not to bother with the show because it runs out of steam.

It's not a minority issue. If you'd care to do any research you'd find that many are underwhelmed and disappointed.

[enad]

5 hours ago, Opium said:

The show stopped being about political machinations and instead became about heroes and character fan service. Basically 90's fantasy.

Which would be fine if it wasn't something else before.

That's actually why I'm kinda looking forward to the Netflix Witcher series.  It has no pretense of being anything other than Kevin Sorbo Hercules but with tits and beheadings.  

[enad]

9 hours ago, Opium said:

Not hearing it, man. He also looks directly at the dragon without any indication he's aware of anything except, you know, a giant fucking dragon breathing fire down on him.

In defense of the show, Jon being hopelessly stupid but saved by divine intervention has been one of the most dramatically consistent aspects.

Edited May 2, 2019 by enad

[enad]

7 hours ago, wacky1980 said:

you're touching on the whole thing dane was implying: that someone would have to be stupid to enjoy the show at this point. pretentious bullshit aside, i have no problems with the show not meeting the high expectations it's created for itself. everyone's so laughably angry that they're not getting the show they deserve. because a tv series about dragons and oracles feels forced and has some lazy storytelling. gimme a break mate.

The problem is the pretense of the show was it broke with the fantasy tropes it has now become.  That is what was meant to set it apart from LOTR or Harry Potter.

One can try to claim that the adherence to tropes in this 11th hour is the subversion of narrative expectations, but we all know that D&D simply do not work in that meta headspace.  It quickly devolves into Last Jedi-esque appeals to authority.  

[naraku360]

11 hours ago, wacky1980 said:

i guess i'll just have to disagree with you. if the writers know what they plan on doing with the plot, then why drive the story away from it? 

I'm not even watching the new season and clicked in to see the shit Dane would be posting, but damn if that isn't a terrible point I don't know what is.

If the intended outcome of a story requires twisting the characters arms to force them to do it, then it probably doesn't work in the story and should be changed. Having intended to do something doesn't make it good. Any good writer who planned ahead to come to an outcome shouldn't have to contrive a plot hole or out of character actions just to get there. All that means is your conclusion simply wasn't planned out carefully enough and having 8 years to fail at a conclusion you intended from the beginning makes it worse.

Edited May 2, 2019 by naraku360

[naraku360]

3 hours ago, enad said:

The problem is the pretense of the show was it broke with the fantasy tropes it has now become.  That is what was meant to set it apart from LOTR or Harry Potter.

One can try to claim that the adherence to tropes in this 11th hour is the subversion of narrative expectations, but we all know that D&D simply do not work in that meta headspace.  It quickly devolves into Last Jedi-esque appeals to authority.  

You don't get it, Dane. It's just a TV show with dragons and oracles, you can't be disappointed by a decline in quality.

Though I doubt it can disappoint me if I were to pick up the new season since I lost all hope at least 2 seasons ago.

[wacky1980]

10 hours ago, naraku360 said:

I'm not even watching the new season and clicked in to see the shit Dane would be posting, but damn if that isn't a terrible point I don't know what is.

If the intended outcome of a story requires twisting the characters arms to force them to do it, then it probably doesn't work in the story and should be changed. Having intended to do something doesn't make it good. Any good writer who planned ahead to come to an outcome shouldn't have to contrive a plot hole or out of character actions just to get there. All that means is your conclusion simply wasn't planned out carefully enough and having 8 years to fail at a conclusion you intended from the beginning makes it worse.

so you're saying the characters should have done something because it would make sense for them to do it. fair enough. problem is, they did do something that made sense to them. the crypts have always been regarded as the safest place in winterfell. it makes perfect sense to put people down there for protection. yeah, sure, no one put 2 and 2 together to realize the night king would probably raise all of the dead down there, but that's kinda how storytelling works. we all know it's a bad idea, but the characters are 3 steps behind the viewer. the characters have no idea what's coming going to happen in the crypts, so it makes absolutely no sense to send them out into the wilderness with no protection, and therefore, no hope of survival if the undead army gets past winterfell.

was it lazy writing for jon show to forget the night king can raise the dead? yes. would it have made a difference if he'd remembered and informed everyone what would happen? probably not, because the working theory for the first two episodes was that everyone was probably gonna die anyways, and the godswood trap was kinda a stab in the dark...>.> so even if snow tells everyone, they're probably going to say "nah, we'll take our chances in the crypts because this is our home and we're not about to wander off into the wilderness. we'll die here."

[naraku360]

1 minute ago, wacky1980 said:

so you're saying the characters should have done something because it would make sense for them to do it. fair enough. problem is, they did do something that made sense to them. the crypts have always been regarded as the safest place in winterfell. it makes perfect sense to put people down there for protection. yeah, sure, no one put 2 and 2 together to realize the night king would probably raise all of the dead down there, but that's kinda how storytelling works. we all know it's a bad idea, but the characters are 3 steps behind the viewer. the characters have no idea what's coming going to happen in the crypts, so it makes absolutely no sense to send them out into the wilderness with no protection, and therefore, no hope of survival if the undead army gets past winterfell.

was it lazy writing for jon show to forget the night king can raise the dead? yes. would it have made a difference if he'd remembered and informed everyone what would happen? probably not, because the working theory for the first two episodes was that everyone was probably gonna die anyways, and the godswood trap was kinda a stab in the dark...>.> so even if snow tells everyone, they're probably going to say "nah, we'll take our chances in the crypts because this is our home and we're not about to wander off into the wilderness. we'll die here."

There is no world in which I could believe Jon would forget the leader of an army of the undead could raise the dead.

[wacky1980]

7 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

There is no world in which I could believe Jon would forget the leader of an army of the undead could raise the dead.

i can concede that point. kinda already have. but his not bringing it up most likely wouldn't have changed how things played out.

Edited May 2, 2019 by wacky1980
fucking kangaroos

[Opium]

It's also important to note that nothing pivotal to the plot happened in the crypt. Some nameless zombies killed nameless characters and nothing else.

[stilgar]

4 minutes ago, Opium said:

It's also important to note that nothing pivotal to the plot happened in the crypt. Some nameless zombies killed nameless characters and nothing else.

So, it would have made more sense to send all non combatives south with some of the dothraki.

[Opium]

12 minutes ago, stilgar said:

So, it would have made more sense to send all non combatives south with some of the dothraki.

[enad]

Martin has been relatively silent since this episode from what I've seen.  In fact, the night it aired he didn't talk about it at all and instead just tweeted about another show he's worked on that was coming out.  I anticipate an interview at some point in the future after the series is over where he distances himself from the creative choices D&D made in the later seasons to appease HBO bosses counting new subscriptions and the normie fans of the show.

[enad]

 

[DragonSinger]

I'm back to youtube clips tomorrow because I'll only purposefully watch bad writing for battle scenes. 

[stilgar]

8 hours ago, enad said:

 

I think it is funny I randomly found this guy a few months ago and only watched his Dune videos.

[DBZ4ever]

It appears that we will probably get the mad queen that people have thought would happen for years. She has shown it in the books at times and they are really trying to push it here with all the losses around her. I like it. This is typical George. This person is different, she isn't like her father. Everyone believes it and she does too but just because you believe something and want something to be a certain way, it doesn't always work out in Game of Thrones. So Jon will probably have to kill her giving us the stabbing of his sword into his lover, part of the azor prophecy.

I doubt he will become king though. Think I read somewhere that George didn't agree with the ending of Lotr and Aragorn. Jon is essentially Aragorn and in any other fantasy world he is king, hands down. He won't be in this one. I think he'll either die or just exile himself north to be away from all of it. He was told in this episode he has the north in him, the true north. I think he'll go there out of depression and honor. Now who gets the throne? Beats me. I've seen certain spoilers that I won't repeat here. I can't say I believe them but it isn't impossible I guess.

I did find it strange how Arya talked about being a family and sticking together, telling him he is her brother as she always does. She always thought of him as her brother regardless. Then she leaves and never plans on returning. I understand it, I can't see her settling down now but it is strange to give that little speech and then leave said family because I do think she isn't coming back regardless of whether she lives or dies.

And lastly Jaime. I wonder if he is going to Cersei to kill her or just to be with her when she dies. I feel like he has been looking for death lately. He nearly said as much before the battle of Winterfell. This may be his way of letting himself die for all his sins but he also wants to still be with her at the time of death. Or he may want to kill her and then die. Either way I think he is just going there to die.

[DragonSinger]

Watched the Bronn scene, Arya and the Hound, and that weakass scene of Jon telling Arya and Sansa about his real background. From what I saw described on social media, the rest of the episode would have annoyed the shit out of me. I think I'm officially done with the series. It's frustrating to see it go out like this. Game of Thrones isn't the first show to have a short season, nor the first fantasy series to have to wrap up its big ending quickly. It's had more money than any of those shows combined thrown at it, but this is the result. No thought put into how to handle a big cast's screentime naturally, drastic behavioral changes in characters to force this ending, and the dumbest fucking thing they decided to skimp on during a short and rushed season, the fucking editing. Those three two minute scenes that I watched looked like some shit those hacks did in Iron Fist's first season. I gave the last episode leeway because a big battle with a zombie horde and dragons takes a hell of an effort to even get the special effects so-so, but now that simple talking scenes look fucked up, this shit ain't worth watching short clips of anymore.

[GunStarHero]

I wouldn't call myself a fan of the show but I have enjoyed parts of it. Tonight's episode was not a part of that. Yikes. Just yikes. My apologies to Dane. 

[StarPanda]

Welp another dragon dead, brutal kill took arrows to the knee 

Why wouldn't John say goodbye to his direwolf like at least hug him not just look at him wtf writers who wrote that shit,

that one girl died ouch, greyworm will now def died 

Jaime got laid by someone other then his sister 

Sansa def cant keep secrets 

At this point all I wanna see is the battles 

 

[scope]

This show has become a parody of itself.

[enad]

53 minutes ago, GunStarHero said:

I wouldn't call myself a fan of the show but I have enjoyed parts of it. Tonight's episode was not a part of that. Yikes. Just yikes. My apologies to Dane. 

I haven't watched it yet because I was traveling and last week's episode sort of suck every bit of will power to watch the show out of me.  But I will say on a long enough timeline I'm always right.

[enad]

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by enad

[scope]

1 hour ago, StarPanda said:

 

At this point all I wanna see is the battles 

 

Next battle I predict the front line will just walk straight off the edge of the nearest cliff.

[DragonSinger]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 

 

[enad]

Starbucks cup had the best arc this season.

[Baby_Yoda]

I just want to a moment of silence for the Mormonts and my dragon pal.

I guess it is a good thing for Danny because she doesn’t know anything about dragons or dragon bonding. I’m glad they incorporated it even though they don’t explain a lot of the dragon knowledge from the books.

It was pretty cute how agitated Drogon was with Rhaegal over being submissive in Jon’s presence. He almost looked at him as a traitor, but he knew what Danny didn’t.

[naraku360]

[QueenoftheDorks]

As far as I'm concerned this series ended after Jaime and Brienne hooked up. What is the actual goddamn point of the dragons because other than taking out the wall they've been a huge fucking letdown. I get that they cost money to use, but fuck me it's underwhelming. I also really hate that yet again we wasted more time with a scene of someone trying to talk reasonably to Cersei. I suspect we'll have a few more over the next couple of episodes. I'm honestly surprised they haven't killed off Tyrion yet. I mean I know fans would lose it, but they obviously have absolutely no idea what do with him anymore. (And for that matter the Hound too. He's literally only alive for CleganeBowl and it's painfully obvious.) 

21 hours ago, DBZ4ever said:

And lastly Jaime. I wonder if he is going to Cersei to kill her or just to be with her when she dies. I feel like he has been looking for death lately. He nearly said as much before the battle of Winterfell. This may be his way of letting himself die for all his sins but he also wants to still be with her at the time of death. Or he may want to kill her and then die. Either way I think he is just going there to die.

I fully expect him to die after he kills Cersei. That is if they've bothered to remember the valonqar prophecy, but at this point I figure Arya will probably end up killing her while wearing Qyburn's face or some shit.

[nameraka]

my prediction for the last two eps: we finally get confirmation on tyrion being aerys's bastard. danny goes batshit. jon kills her. 

jon has no interest in ruling. tyrion and sansa will rule, and jon goes back to be winterfell. the end.

we also find out what pod did to those girls.

[scope]

14 hours ago, SorceressPol said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 

 

Well that's just good advertisement cus I'm gonna need some to make it through the rest.

[nameraka]

also, after that whole, you will end many lives brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes thing from the last ep. did anyone else remember that dany's eyes are also green?

[enad]

 

[enad]

3 hours ago, QueenoftheDorks said:

As far as I'm concerned this series ended after Jaime and Brienne hooked up. What is the actual goddamn point of the dragons because other than taking out the wall they've been a huge fucking letdown. I get that they cost money to use, but fuck me it's underwhelming. I also really hate that yet again we wasted more time with a scene of someone trying to talk reasonably to Cersei. I suspect we'll have a few more over the next couple of episodes. I'm honestly surprised they haven't killed off Tyrion yet. I mean I know fans would lose it, but they obviously have absolutely no idea what do with him anymore. (And for that matter the Hound too. He's literally only alive for CleganeBowl and it's painfully obvious.) 

I fully expect him to die after he kills Cersei. That is if they've bothered to remember the valonqar prophecy, but at this point I figure Arya will probably end up killing her while wearing Qyburn's face or some shit.

Twist that would fix the whole series: Arya wears a Jamie mask and then dices her while fucking Gone Girl style.  

[DragonSinger]

20 minutes ago, enad said:

 

This is what happens when you hire dudebros.

[enad]

2 minutes ago, SorceressPol said:

This is what happens when you hire dudebros.

Actually, he's a stalwart Male Ally who truly knows a woman's plight because when he says "Dany kind of forgot" what he means is "I kind of forgot."

Edited May 7, 2019 by enad

[enad]

Just got around to watching Sunday's episode.  Parts of it I liked.  The conversations between Tyrion and Varys reminded me of what GoT used to be, even if they weren't of the same caliber.

But man...man...the dragon.  I'm just supposed to accept that neither Dany nor her dragons saw any of those boats?  Really?  Like, that's what Line of Sight is.  If he can see her to shoot big arrows then she can see him doing so.

What it amounts to is the script needed it to happen so it did.  Don't ask questions.  Just consume product then get excited for next product.

[stilgar]

if they really needed the dragon dead they should have filled it in episode 3.

[enad]

14 hours ago, stilgar said:

if they really needed the dragon dead they should have filled it in episode 3.

It would be nice if anything was written anymore with some goal in mind other than defying Reddit predictions, even in sacrifice of the story making sense.

[enad]

 

[stilgar]

I can not wait for this shit to be done. And I hope it gets so many people disappointed and angry that HBO cancels the other Game of Thrones crap they got planned.