ITN: Israel

[matrixman124]

There needs to be a ceasefire

Israel won't stop until it gets rid of all the Palestinians

The Palestinians won't stop until it gets rid of all the Israelis

This is unwinnable. It's just a bloodbath.

[Master-Debater131]

Theres no way that a ceasefire is anywhere in the near term. This hasnt even started to get serious yet and no one has an apatite for a ceasefire.

 

Maybe in a few weeks, but more likely than not this thing is going to get much much bigger before anyone even attempts a serious ceasefire agreement.

[Master-Debater131]

 

 

Good news! Do have to wonder if the presence of those carriers off the coast didnt help Hamas make a decision.

 

Theres still close to 200 hostages being held.

[scoobdog]

I'm pretty sure all of the innocent Palestinians caught between Hamas and the IDF have an appetite for ceasefire, as does the Israel's Western partners.

We have not gotten an explanation as to why Israel either didn't see the intelligence about Hamas planning this (possibly up to a year) or ignored it.  Regardless, I don't think we should take this lapse to mean that IDF and Israeli government aren't in control of the situation for the time being.  However, the more damage the IDF does to Gaza, the more likely this devolves into a scorched earth situation for both sides, and the more likely Israel reaches a point where it can no longer defend itself without outside interference.

[Master-Debater131]

And I'm sure that the Israeli  civilians that were massacred and kidnapped also wanted a ceasefire, as well as the Israeli civilians who live under constant threat of rocket attacks, but here we are.

Israel is not going to stop until it has achieved retribution for the terrorist attacks by Hamas. Its also very clear that they cannot allow Hamas to operate as they have for the past 20 years. All that they have received from leaving Gaza in 2005 has been rockets and terrorist attacks.

Hamas has an existence dedicated to eliminating Israel and any Jew they find. They proved that they are willing to go to extreme measures to achieve that goal. So Israel has every right to respond and eliminate Hamas.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Master-Debater131

[matrixman124]

33 minutes ago, Master-Debater131 said:

And I'm sure that the Israeli  civilians that were massacred and kidnapped also wanted a ceasefire, as well as the Israeli civilians who live under constant threat of rocket attacks, but here we are.

Israel is not going to stop until it has achieved retribution for the terrorist attacks by Hamas. Its also very clear that they cannot allow Hamas to operate as they have for the past 20 years. All that they have received from leaving Gaza in 2005 has been rockets and terrorist attacks.

Hamas has an existence dedicated to eliminating Israel and any Jew they find. They proved that they are willing to go to extreme measures to achieve that goal. So Israel has every right to respond and eliminate Hamas.

A lot of people are going to die then.

[Icarus27k]

I see a lot of, for the lack of a better term, dick waving. 

"We're going to destroy you." "No! We're going to destroy you!"

When no one is capable enough to follow thru. Israel isn't capable of totally destroying Hamas, for example. 

[Icarus27k]

I guess, "non-credible threats" is the term military people use, but I prefer "dick waving". 

[scoobdog]

This isn't about right or wrong, it's about what will work.

The biggest issue is that the Israeli government painted itself into a corner through years of neglecting their Palestinian neighbors.  To be clear, neither the current regime (awful as it might be) nor the countless Israeli citizens victimized are responsible for Hamas being created, neither are they responsible for fostering terrorism.  The fighters are all radicalized and irrational - nothing could be done to change them once that radicalization takes hold.  That doesn't change the fact that the IDF has continuously responded with equal or greater force every time one of these radicals has launched rockets.  The Israeli government has also done nothing to foster any kind of connection with the vast number of Palestinians who are not associated with Hamas and who do not sympathize with their extreme goals.  There is effectively no way to distinguish between terrorists and innocent people from outside the walls of Gaza.

Aside from the fact that Israel should have known the attack was coming given it's been suggested the planning might have been a year in the making, the IDF wasn't selective and precise when dealing with Hamas up to this point.  Now, the only option to eliminate the threat Hamas faces is to either level Gaza or rely on diplomatic overtures from allies and neighbors  to broker an effective ceasefire.  The former is only going to result in a collapse of the Jewish state in the long run because it will require far more resources than they can provide, even with help from the US.  It will also permanently and fatally damage what little hope there is for having Palestinians and Israelis coexist.

Israel was not responsible for the craven acts of deranged ideologues, but it is responsible for limiting its ability to respond to terrorism and protect its people.

[Master-Debater131]

Where to even start.....

Alright, first off the whole "they should have seen this coming" thing has extremely strong "she was asking for it, look how short her skirt was!" energy. There was no real way to know this was coming because something like this had never happened before. Knowing "something" is coming is very different than knowing exactly what was coming.

There was absolutely know way that anyone could have known that Hamas was going to commit these kind of atrocities.

But sure, they should have seen that coming.

As for the overtures by Israel to Palestine, there have been plenty. They had no obligation to provide water, food, or any sort of aid to the people of Palestine, but they did. They unilaterally left in 2005 and forced their people to leave settlements in the Gaza Strip as an overture of peace. They simply threw up their hands and said that it was now up to the people of Gaza to determine where their future would lead. And they immediately decided that their future would be dedicated to the eradication of every single Jew they could find.

It hasn't just been Israel providing aid either, its been the world. Massive amounts of aid have flowed into Gaza to try and help the people. What happened to all that aid? Why are people screaming about Israel cutting off water when there has been massive resources poured into Gaza to help their water infrastructure?

Spoiler: Its because Hamas has taken all that aid and turned it into weapons pointed at Israel. All those pipes that were for water infrastructure? yea, those were dug up and turned into rockets like the one that hit the hospital. The reason that Gaza has such horrible infrastructure is because any time people invest in Gaza Hamas comes around and figures out how to turn that support into a weapon to kill Jews.

As far as the response goes, this isn't even close to what they should do yet. They have sat for years and just accepted live under constant attack. When Hamas fires rockets at them daily they used the Iron Dome to knock them down to protect their civilians. They've tried for years to have some sort of solution to the problem. And notice how the West Bank doesnt have this kind of issue? Same Palestinian people, totally different outcome.

Israel has always been precise in its responses to. They openly warn people that they will be bombing a building after it was used to launch rockets at their people. They send text alert, leaflets, and even drop a roof-knock to let people know to evacuate.  All in the name of protecting civilians. Their reward for going that far to protect civilian life? Idiots saying they arent going far enough and need to stop defending themselves.

There was a time when people said that we would never allow another event like the Holocaust to happen. And now when we are faced with the single largest loss of Jewish life in a day since WW2 people are sitting around saying its somehow Israels responsibility to just sit back and take it. They arent allowed to defend themselves or end the threat once and for all. Oh no. They just have to accept the fact that there is a genocidal enemy on their border whos entire point of existence is to eliminate the Jews.

Its absolutely disgusting.

[Icarus27k]

Earlier in this thread, I compared this Hamas-Israel war to the 1994 Rwandan genocide. Now I'm reminded of the Syrian Civil War of the 2010s. Chemical weapons were used, Russia and the U.S. joined in the fighting on opposite sides, whole cities were leveled. 

 

And then, around 2015 half of Americans formed this opinion of "Hell no to any Syrian refugees coming to the United States". I remember arguing about it online. And that was basically our knowledge of the war. A bunch of xenophobes saying how much they hate refugees. 

And then, we moved on to the upcoming 2016 election and forgot about Syria. 

[Icarus27k]

I volunteered with a pro-refugee group because of the Syrian Civil War, and during its darkest moments, I felt similarly to the way I feel today: not an existential risk to me, but a nagging dread for people far away for who it is existential.

[Master-Debater131]

 

 

 

[Master-Debater131]

Antisemitic hate crimes in London up 1,350%, Met police say

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says

"

There has been a 1,350% increase in hate crimes against Jewish people as the Middle East crisis erupted, the Metropolitan police have said, with no arrests so far in nine out of 10 alleged offences.

Figures from the Met covering London show that 218 antisemitic offences were recorded from 1 October to 18 October this year, compared with 15 in the same period last year."

 

Sadly this is predictable. The Anti-Semites are out in huge numbers and have grown emboldened by the "both sides" talking point that the media is trying to push. They parrot terrorist talking points, and it leads to direct violence on Jewish people.

[scoobdog]

On 10/21/2023 at 9:44 AM, Master-Debater131 said:

Where to even start.....

Alright, first off the whole "they should have seen this coming" thing has extremely strong "she was asking for it, look how short her skirt was!" energy. There was no real way to know this was coming because something like this had never happened before. Knowing "something" is coming is very different than knowing exactly what was coming.

No, it doesn't.

First of all, You can't compare the actions of a woman who is minding her own business with a government who is creating a hostile environment for their own people.  Second, no one is suggesting that the Israeli citizens that were tortured, kidnapped and murdered deserved such a fate.  Neither point addresses the fact that Israel has generally played a hands-off approach to Gaza even though it was effectively sealing Palestinians in a ghetto.  Which brings me to this point....

On 10/21/2023 at 9:44 AM, Master-Debater131 said:

Where to even start.....

As for the overtures by Israel to Palestine, there have been plenty. They had no obligation to provide water, food, or any sort of aid to the people of Palestine, but they did. They unilaterally left in 2005 and forced their people to leave settlements in the Gaza Strip as an overture of peace. They simply threw up their hands and said that it was now up to the people of Gaza to determine where their future would lead. And they immediately decided that their future would be dedicated to the eradication of every single Jew they could find.

It hasn't just been Israel providing aid either, its been the world. Massive amounts of aid have flowed into Gaza to try and help the people. What happened to all that aid? Why are people screaming about Israel cutting off water when there has been massive resources poured into Gaza to help their water infrastructure?

Why would you suggest that Israel has "... no obligation to provide water, food, or any sort of aid to the people of Palestine..."?  Gaza might be ostensibly under separate authority, but it does not have international standing, nor does it have means to provide for its own food, water, electricity, or petroleum.  You only have to look at a map to see that, which makes me wonder what it is you actually understand about this situation.   You further point out that Israel has been giving the Palestinians all this aid that Hamas is stealing all or most of it while tuning underground water supply lines into terrorist tunnels.  If any of that were true (and there is little information to suggest that it is given the strong backing of Iran), that would suggest it is, in fact, Israel's fault for not being hands on when supplying aid and developing infrastructure in Palestine.

Naturally, I don't agree with your assertion that Hamas is stealing aid and coopting infrastructural projects, so I consequently don't think Israel deserves blame for not better managing their aid.  That doesn't change the fact that the aid isn't working well enough to make a difference and that Palestinians not  affiliated with Hamas are being increasingly sidelined by poverty while Hamas continues to benefit from funding and material support by the likes of Iran and fellow bad actor states.  If that's TL;DR for you, let me simplify the basic problem:  Israel has to done enough to bolster Palestinians in the face of growing global terrorism, and that has limited their ability to both head off terrorist attacks and  fight back against terrorists when the time arrives.

[Master-Debater131]

They absolutely do have the same energy. What was Israel doing that warranted that attack? Hmm? Anything come to mind? If you say that anything they did warranted the attack then yes, they have the exact same energy. If not, then your entire point is moot. Doesnt matter if you dont think that specific attack was warranted. Any attack and you are absolutely blaming the girl for wearing a short skirt.

Then you go on to say that Hamas isnt stealing aid and digging up pipes and turning them into rockets even though its widely verified that thats exactly whats going on. Dont even have to believe me, you can believe Hamas themselves since they seem to be the preferred source right now.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-gaza-challenge-stopping-metal-tubes-turning-into-rockets-2021-05-23/

"Insight: Israel’s Gaza challenge: stopping metal tubes turning into rockets"

 

Then you also say that if that is really happening then Israel is at fault for the attacks because they should have stopped sending in that aid. While saying that you are also saying that Israel has an obligation to provide aid to Palestine. You cant have it both ways, but thats what you are trying to do here.

The lengths you are going to victim blame is truly startling.

[Master-Debater131]

 

 

[Master-Debater131]

IDF shows foreign press Hamas bodycam videos, photos of murder, torture, decapitation

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-shows-foreign-press-raw-hamas-bodycam-videos-of-murder-torture-decapitation/

The Israeli government on Monday screened for 200 members of the foreign press some 43 minutes of harrowing scenes of murder, torture and decapitation from Hamas’s October 7 onslaught on southern Israel, in which over 1,400 people were killed, including raw videos from the terrorists’ bodycams.

The government said it had decided to show journalists part of its collected documentation in order to dispel what a spokesperson characterized as “a Holocaust-denial-like phenomenon happening in real-time,” as doubts have been raised around the world about some of the most horrific of Hamas’s atrocities.

Journalists were not permitted to record the screening, which took place on a closed military base.

[Master-Debater131]

 

 

Massive rocket attack from Hamas this morning. All of these rockets indiscriminately target civilians. Just further proof that Israel needs to go into Gaza and wipe Hamas out.

[Master-Debater131]

 

The header is a bit overblown, but the video is dead on. That woman clearly outlines how Israel is acting within international law and protecting Palestinian civilians while targeting Hamas.

[Master-Debater131]

U.S. readies plans for mass evacuations if Gaza war escalates

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-readies-plans-for-mass-evacuations-if-gaza-war-escalates/ar-AA1iJgNY

"

The Biden administration is preparing for the possibility that hundreds of thousands of American citizens will require evacuation from the Middle East if the bloodshed in Gaza cannot be contained, according to four officials familiar with the U.S. government’s contingency planning.

The specter of such an operation comes as Israeli forces, aided by U.S. weapons and military advisers, prepare for what is widely expected to be a perilous ground offensive against Hamas militants responsible for the stunning cross-border attack that has reignited hostilities. The officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to detail internal deliberations, said Americans living in Israel and neighboring Lebanon are of particular concern, though they stressed that an evacuation of that magnitude is considered a worst-case scenario and that other outcomes are seen as more likely.

Still, one official said, it “would be irresponsible not to have a plan for everything.”"

 

This following the growing aggression from Iran who is using its proxy's in the region to attack anything they can, mainly US Targets.

[scoobdog]

I'm not going to press you further @Master-Debater131 .  You're not usually one for nuance anyway, but it's particularly understandable given the horrific nature of the incursion.  So let's make it a little simpler by starting with the facts.

• First, no reasonable person believes the Jewish victims deserved to be massacred.  Aside from the fact the indviduals massacred had nothing to do with policy, the concept of terror precludes a rational connection between cause and effect because it's centered on soft targets, who are soft explicitly because they're not related to the terrorists' target.
• It's a moot point why Israel was giving aid because the were.
• It's also a moot point whether or not Hamas was stealing that aid because in any scenario it wasn't nearly enough to fund the terror attack.
• Palestinians can be killed at a greater rate and scale than the victims of the rocket attacks even when Israel takes the utmost care not to strike civilian targets and follows the internationally defined rules of engagement.  The degrees of destruction is proportional to the disparity of armament between the IDF and Hamas, even factoring in different rules of engagement.
• Finally, it doesn't matter why any of this is the case - the Palestinians were not in a position to defend themselves against Hamas because of the specific nature of their existence.  They are extremely poor, have a mostly impotent government, and no rightful means to defend themselves.  By default and fairly or not, the burden of stopping Hamas before they could attack was on Israel.

How we got to this point is made up of a numerous smaller missteps by both sides over the course of the Israeli's state's entire 70+ years of existence.  The end results speak for themselves - regardless of who's right here, the Palestinians should have been partners to stop this terrorist attack, and they were not in a position to do so.  Israel can't defeat Hamas on its own, even if it completely levels Gaza and puts the entirely of the West Bank under martial law.  The international community can not help Israel eliminate Hamas - intelligence and material support or only as good as whatever can be gleaned outside of Gaza's borders.  Continuing the bombing only keeps Hamas on its heels, and leads to innocent Palestinians dying as unavoidable collateral damage.

The question, then, is how to get to the point where Palestinians will be able to work with Israel to defeat the terrorists.

 

[discolé monade]

55 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

 

The question, then, is how to get to the point where Palestinians will be able to work with Israel to defeat the terrorists.

 

when 'armchair' commentators stop spreading misinformation, and gleefully applauding one side or the other on these horrific horrors. 

[scoobdog]

8 minutes ago, discolé monade said:

when 'armchair' commentators stop spreading misinformation, and gleefully applauding one side or the other on these horrific horrors. 

To say the least.  We're spiraling toward mutually assured destruction between the two sides, and the only people that "benefit" from that are avowed racists.

[Icarus27k]

Compare Israel's siege of Gaza in 2023 and the anti-ISIL coalition's (Iraq, Hezbollah/Iran, the U.S./Britain/a bunch of other Western nations) siege of Mosul 2016-17. 

Both battles caused unspeakable civilian death tolls, but it's the Gaza issue that's causing an international outcry. In Mosul, everybody had the same enemy so they didn't care about civilian deaths. 

[Icarus27k]

You know who I'm losing patience with? Some of the people judging others for their reactions to the Israel-Gaza war. Today I saw a guy make the judgement, "you must really not sleep good at night. I bet the weight of your own guilt weighs you down immeasurably because of what you said". My basic paraphrase.

 

Like, you're an anonymous person online judging strangers in melodramatic biblical terms. I can't take you seriously. Do you know how many wars and genocides that have JUST occurred within my lifetime that I have made comments about? Unless you cared enough to pass judgement at least during the 2016 battle of Mosul, you can stop with that nonsense. 

[Master-Debater131]

US fighter jets strike Iran-linked sites in Syria in retaliation for attacks on US troops

https://apnews.com/article/syria-airstrikes-iran-revolutionary-guard-af3c7a0f069b8c8b08f6feaa0e165d6a

"WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. fighter jets launched airstrikes early Friday on two locations in eastern Syria linked to Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps, the Pentagon said, in retaliation for a slew of drone and missile attacks against U.S. bases and personnel in the region that began early last week.

The U.S. strikes reflect the Biden administration’s determination to maintain a delicate balance. The U.S. wants to hit Iranian-backed groups suspected of targeting the U.S. as strongly as possible to deter future aggression, possibly fueled by Israel’s war against Hamas, while also working to avoid inflaming the region and provoking a wider conflict."

[Master-Debater131]

Hamas headquarters located under Gaza hospital

The IDF has revealed that one of the largest hospitals in Gaza is hiding Hamas headquarters.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379276

"As part of a special briefing for the international media, the IDF spokesman revealed a great deal of information proving that Hamas routinely and in an emergency uses humanitarian infrastructure in the Gaza Strip for the benefit of its terrorist activities and to protect its terrorists and the leaders of the terrorist organization.

The headquarters of the organization's activity in the Gaza Strip is Shifaa Hospital, the central and largest hospital in the Gaza Strip, located in the heart of Gaza City.

In the Shifaa hospital, there are several underground complexes used by the leaders of the terrorist organization Hamas to direct their activities and a tunnel that reaches the hospital, and allows entrance to the Hamas headquarters without going through the hospital."

 

 

This isnt a surprise. Its been well known for more than a decade that Hamas has hid their HQ under a hospital to have as many human shields as possible. What is different this time is the IDF is calling it out. Makes me thing that they have a clear goal of going in and taking out the HQ this time.

[Master-Debater131]

Here we go.

This looks like the final precursor to the full blown invasion of Gaza. Internet has been cut in Gaza and the IDF is moving a lot of resources right to the border. Some of the early videos of the airstrikes tonight also are of a much larger scale than before.

Good hunting IDF. Go eliminate all the Hamas terrorists you can.

 

[Master-Debater131]

 

[Master-Debater131]

 

[cyberbully]

....i seriously feel like this is being enjoyed on some level

[Icarus27k]

Was it the public masturbation that gave it away? 

[Master-Debater131]

 

New Yorkers getting fed up with the antisemitism that has grown. Good on that man for standing up for whats right.

[discolé monade]

32 minutes ago, cyberbully said:

....i seriously feel like this is being enjoyed on some level

 

29 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

Was it the public masturbation that gave it away? 

and she's fucking gross about it too. 

go flick your war mongering bean in the closet like a respectable republiKlan. 

[cyberbully]

27 minutes ago, Master-Debater131 said:

 

New Yorkers getting fed up with the antisemitism that has grown. Good on that man for standing up for whats right.

Did they give him the X shirt to wear or does one wear it in hopes that Twizzlers antisemitism page finds you.

[Master-Debater131]

 

Not really a surprise. Theres historically been a lot of useful idiots in the US, and other Western nations, that had hamstrung Israel from being able to properly deal with Hamas. The pure brutality of the 10/7 attacks has left only the most useful of idiots and biggest anti-Semites left at this point.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Master-Debater131

[DragonSinger]

4 hours ago, Master-Debater131 said:

Hamas headquarters located under Gaza hospital

The IDF has revealed that one of the largest hospitals in Gaza is hiding Hamas headquarters.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379276

"As part of a special briefing for the international media, the IDF spokesman revealed a great deal of information proving that Hamas routinely and in an emergency uses humanitarian infrastructure in the Gaza Strip for the benefit of its terrorist activities and to protect its terrorists and the leaders of the terrorist organization.

The headquarters of the organization's activity in the Gaza Strip is Shifaa Hospital, the central and largest hospital in the Gaza Strip, located in the heart of Gaza City.

In the Shifaa hospital, there are several underground complexes used by the leaders of the terrorist organization Hamas to direct their activities and a tunnel that reaches the hospital, and allows entrance to the Hamas headquarters without going through the hospital."

 

 

This isnt a surprise. Its been well known for more than a decade that Hamas has hid their HQ under a hospital to have as many human shields as possible. What is different this time is the IDF is calling it out. Makes me thing that they have a clear goal of going in and taking out the HQ this time.

I genuinely wish upon you what you wish for others in this thread.

[Icarus27k]

For the record, the U.S. is very skeptical of Israel's plans. Israel would have invaded Gaza already if the U.S. wasn't restraining them. 

 

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2023/10/25/the-3-plans-biden-wants-from-israel-00123432

 

[matrixman124]

It's not an "invasion" it's a field trip!

[matrixman124]

The amount of public outcry for a ceasefire is very promising

 

[Icarus27k]

The International Criminal Court indicted Putin for war crimes just this year. Netanyahu saw that and went, "Man, I got to get me some of that." 

[matrixman124]

35 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

The International Criminal Court indicted Putin for war crimes just this year. Netanyahu saw that and went, "Man, I got to get me some of that." 

Netanyahu has a lot of protection 

[matrixman124]

I was in Philadelphia this evening and saw a big protest calling for ceasefire

[Icarus27k]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-ground-invasion.html?smid=url-share

 

 

 

There's so much conflicting information about today's events. I kind of imagine Israel wanted it that way. 

[naraku360]

I don't know how any of you tolerate this thread.

[André Toulon]

57 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

I don't know how any of you tolerate this thread.

I'm high beyond belief 

[Insipid]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:10 PM, discolé monade said:

 

go flick your war mongering bean

That is so beautiful. I'm proud of you.

[discolé monade]

9 hours ago, André Toulon said:

I'm high beyond belief 

 

[Master-Debater131]

Israel expands Gaza offensive, sends troops into Hamas tunnels

https://www.firstpost.com/world/israel-expands-gaza-offensive-sends-troops-into-hamas-tunnels-13323832.html

"Israel announced on Tuesday that it had launched an attack on Hamas terrorists within the Islamists’ extensive network of tunnels beneath Gaza. This came after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejected calls for a ceasefire to alleviate the humanitarian crisis in the Palestinian enclave.

As Israel steps up ground operations inside Gaza to destroy the ruling Hamas movement in the wake of its gun rampage three weeks ago that left over 1,400 people dead, the tunnels are a major goal.

“Over the last day, combined IDF combat forces struck approximately 300 targets, including anti-tank missile and rocket launch posts below shafts, as well as military compounds inside underground tunnels belonging to the Hamas terrorist organization,” the Israel Defernce Forces (IDF) said in a statement.

Hamas terrorists responded with anti-tank missiles and machine gun fire, it added.

“The soldiers killed terrorists and directed air forces to real-time strikes on targets and terror infrastructure,” the IDF said."

 

Israel isnt fucking around. If they really are going into those tunnels then they are deeply committed to rooting out Hamas by any means necessary.