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Another Olympic Controversy


1pooh4u

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As a nurse I thought you’d do more than to just dismiss syndromes that would in fact create an XY female 

https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/swyer-syndrome#

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1521693409001230

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/

And it should not disqualify them from competition 

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Yeah, sexual differentiation is an incredibly complex process, and there are all sorts of genetic and hormonal steps along the way that can go differently than "normal." Someone may very well have a particular set of sex chromosomes, but those genes don't wind up getting expressed properly. It works the other way too: there are cases of people who are physically male, were raised male from birth, and identify as male, but they happen to have two X chromosomes. And that's not even counting the specific conditions when women have one or three X chromosomes, or men have an extra X or Y chromosome. You can't just simplify this down to two binary conditions.

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And none of those differences should mean they shouldn’t be allowed to identify as the gender assigned at birth even athletes. A woman with Swyer syndrome (XY) isn’t a biological male they’re a female with Swyer syndrome 

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2 hours ago, 1pooh4u said:

As a nurse I thought you’d know better than to just dismiss syndromes that would in fact create an XY female 

https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/swyer-syndrome#

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1521693409001230

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/

And it should not disqualify them from competition 

As a nurse, I am qualified to wipe your ass and save your life, not counsel you on genetics. I did, however, mention that there were syndromes and disorders. 

Syndromes and disorders are not normal. They do not represent the vast majority of the population. One can wax poetic about atypical phenotypes and multiple X's, but unless one works in a relatively specialized clinical or research position, one may encounter maybe one or two individuals with a DSD in a lifetime. These people are the exception, not the rule. The rule is XX=female, XY=male. And the rule is necessary for us to survive as a species; I'm not running to Google, because I'm in my phone at 6%, but I can't recall any of the multiple X's or Swyer's syndrome being able to reproduce without intervention. I'm sure that you'll find an exception or two; it's been 40 years since I've had to think of this shit(and it was mostly fruit flies) and I only got a B- in it, but anyway...(Yeah, XXX can)

In a world where so many people conflate sex with gender, it's like spitting on every biological woman who has fought and trained and struggled for her sport to say that some women have Y chromosomes, and should be allowed to to compete with women with XX chromosomes. In the current climate, where do you draw the line? Yeah, it's sad to deny someone their dream because of a genetic condition, but kids die from genetic conditions, too, and that's even sadder. 

The tools we have are crude - a testosterone level here, a cheek swab for DNA there. But they're what we've got. And at some point, a line has to be drawn. Maybe an independent diagnosis (like, from not the team doctor), maybe an ultrasound, I don't know. But saying that women with XY chromosomes can compete with women with XX chromosomes without any reservation or caveat is not a reasonable statement.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, 1pooh4u said:

There actually is a transgender male boxer boxing against females that no one is demanding to fight with the men 

https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/08/05/hergie-bacyadan-paris-olympics-trans/

This is why I don't watch the summer games anyways. Bring on the Jamaican bobsledders!

Ooh! And the ski jumpers! The agony of defeat!

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I mean.. honestly, genetics aside, it's not exactly like she's completely dominating in her field. Kinda feels like all the arguments would hold a lot more water if, due to whatever genetic expression, she had a clear and undeniable advantage over all the competition. As is, most arguments against her seem to not-so-subtly be (failing to) skirt around the "she looks like a dude" complaint.

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5 hours ago, mthor said:

Biological female humans are not born with a Y chromosome. Biological female humans have two X chromosomes. Biological male humans have an X chromosome and a Y chromosome. I don't care how you live your life or what you call yourself, this is what it comes down to at the end of the day. Science matters.

Yes, there are syndromes and disorders that can cause an ambiguous presentation. I'm not going to debate that. I'm in this thread for the Turkish dude and his cat. But for the love of God, I can't sit here and see somebody unironically say that just because a woman has a Y chromosome doesn't mean she isn't a woman, because biologically, that's exactly what it means. It means she's a biological man.

Finally!  I have internet.

This is kind of a stupid take.  Setting aside the fact that the biological process creates non standard iterations, you have no real reason to designate the gender of someone else.  You don't treat a woman differently than a man because she's a woman, you address issues specific to her and use gender as way to guide a response.  It's for that reason the medical community does, in fact, acknowledge that biological males and females are not singular genders.

The problem is that gender isn't a "scientific" designation, it's a wholly social one.  It's a way to classify human beings with those who share similar attributes so they can function as a social unit.  A gay man doesn't need to be only amongst other gay men, but announcing himself as such allows him the opportunity to work with other gay men to solve functional issues.  At the same time, he doesn't have the right to determine who is gay and who isn't; he only needs to know who is gay as a pretext to interact with them.

This is all to say that a biological male can be a woman because the social concept of gender identifies that possibility.  I'm not saying a bogus test by discredited and derelict boxing federation should be given any credence, just that it's irrelevant what a persons biological makeup is when determining who is or is not a woman.

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3 hours ago, mthor said:

The tools we have are crude - a testosterone level here, a cheek swab for DNA there. But they're what we've got. And at some point, a line has to be drawn. Maybe an independent diagnosis (like, from not the team doctor), maybe an ultrasound, I don't know. But saying that women with XY chromosomes can compete with women with XX chromosomes without any reservation or caveat is not a reasonable statement.

This speaks to my comments about the arbitrary nature of athletics.  Theoretically, any human being should be able to compete against anyone in his or her species because sport doesn't just measure training, it also measures inherent gifts. 

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7 hours ago, mthor said:

As a nurse, I am qualified to wipe your ass and save your life, not counsel you on genetics. I did, however, mention that there were syndromes and disorders. 

Syndromes and disorders are not normal. They do not represent the vast majority of the population. One can wax poetic about atypical phenotypes and multiple X's, but unless one works in a relatively specialized clinical or research position, one may encounter maybe one or two individuals with a DSD in a lifetime. These people are the exception, not the rule. The rule is XX=female, XY=male. And the rule is necessary for us to survive as a species; I'm not running to Google, because I'm in my phone at 6%, but I can't recall any of the multiple X's or Swyer's syndrome being able to reproduce without intervention. I'm sure that you'll find an exception or two; it's been 40 years since I've had to think of this shit(and it was mostly fruit flies) and I only got a B- in it, but anyway...(Yeah, XXX can)

In a world where so many people conflate sex with gender, it's like spitting on every biological woman who has fought and trained and struggled for her sport to say that some women have Y chromosomes, and should be allowed to to compete with women with XX chromosomes. In the current climate, where do you draw the line? Yeah, it's sad to deny someone their dream because of a genetic condition, but kids die from genetic conditions, too, and that's even sadder. 

The tools we have are crude - a testosterone level here, a cheek swab for DNA there. But they're what we've got. And at some point, a line has to be drawn. Maybe an independent diagnosis (like, from not the team doctor), maybe an ultrasound, I don't know. But saying that women with XY chromosomes can compete with women with XX chromosomes without any reservation or caveat is not a reasonable statement.

 

 

 

 

You said the syndromes exist and dismissed those with them as practically irrelevant and doubled down on XY being a biological man and that assertion is absolute false.  The two boxers in question never identified as men and if they do have Swyer Syndrome then they might not have went through puberty at all let alone a male puberty. Breaking down female anatomy down to the genetic level in order to participate in sports is ridiculous.  No one stopped Tyson from boxing when he knocked out plenty of people in one punch.  Like I said a million times no one stopped Phelps from swimming.  The boxers in question only lived as women and they are exceptional athletes among elite athletes and to say they aren’t women enough when that’s the only gender they ever identified with since their anatomy is female, is a disgraceful shit take. 
 

and yes XY women can compete with XX women. That is a reasonable statement because they are in fact women and we are more than just a chromosome 

ETA I hear a lot of talk about how these women worked their entire lives and it’s not fair. To that I say the athletes in question also trained their entire lives and to exclude them insults all female athletes 

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5 hours ago, rpgamer said:

I mean.. honestly, genetics aside, it's not exactly like she's completely dominating in her field. Kinda feels like all the arguments would hold a lot more water if, due to whatever genetic expression, she had a clear and undeniable advantage over all the competition. As is, most arguments against her seem to not-so-subtly be (failing to) skirt around the "she looks like a dude" complaint.

Thank you! Exactly this. Khelif lost in Tokyo to a boxer from Ireland and her record was 9-5 when the controversy broke. Respectable but not unbeatable 

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18 hours ago, 1pooh4u said:

Those same upset Christians are now all experts in genetics, biology and gender studies now.  
 

Shenanigans declared.

Those are all 'Woke' sciences. They are as likely to actually study any of those as they are to ask to borrow my copy of 'Elucidation of Necromancy (Lucidarium artis Nigromantice) '

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On 8/6/2024 at 1:22 AM, mthor said:

As a nurse, I am qualified to wipe your ass and save your life, not counsel you on genetics. I did, however, mention that there were syndromes and disorders. 

Syndromes and disorders are not normal. They do not represent the vast majority of the population. One can wax poetic about atypical phenotypes and multiple X's, but unless one works in a relatively specialized clinical or research position, one may encounter maybe one or two individuals with a DSD in a lifetime. These people are the exception, not the rule. The rule is XX=female, XY=male. And the rule is necessary for us to survive as a species; I'm not running to Google, because I'm in my phone at 6%, but I can't recall any of the multiple X's or Swyer's syndrome being able to reproduce without intervention. I'm sure that you'll find an exception or two; it's been 40 years since I've had to think of this shit(and it was mostly fruit flies) and I only got a B- in it, but anyway...(Yeah, XXX can)

In a world where so many people conflate sex with gender, it's like spitting on every biological woman who has fought and trained and struggled for her sport to say that some women have Y chromosomes, and should be allowed to to compete with women with XX chromosomes. In the current climate, where do you draw the line? Yeah, it's sad to deny someone their dream because of a genetic condition, but kids die from genetic conditions, too, and that's even sadder. 

The tools we have are crude - a testosterone level here, a cheek swab for DNA there. But they're what we've got. And at some point, a line has to be drawn. Maybe an independent diagnosis (like, from not the team doctor), maybe an ultrasound, I don't know. But saying that women with XY chromosomes can compete with women with XX chromosomes without any reservation or caveat is not a reasonable statement.

 

 

 

 

Should Michael Phelps have competed?

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I’m pretty sure some of the Olympic events are meant to emulate how the Ancient Greeks were having sex. That horse thing and the uneven bars, wrestling definitely and the pole vault….well the world saw that one guy so you tell me 😆

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18 minutes ago, 1pooh4u said:

I’m pretty sure some of the Olympic events are meant to emulate how the Ancient Greeks were having sex. That horse thing and the uneven bars, wrestling definitely and the pole vault….well the world saw that one guy so you tell me 😆

If you’re going to miss out on a medal, it better be because your dick is too big.

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2 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

Conservatives need a 1-to-1 confirmation on vaginas, but we want to be fair, so we gotta give them a floppy wiener for every hotdog holder.

Conservatives definitely love their wieners 😆

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8 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

Yeah.

That's why I never got a medal.

Kept tripping over it.

I got DQd because I accidentally slapped a dude in the face making the turn.

I know he bitching because he jealous of my speed.

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4 hours ago, 1pooh4u said:

I’m pretty sure some of the Olympic events are meant to emulate how the Ancient Greeks were having sex. That horse thing and the uneven bars, wrestling definitely and the pole vault….well the world saw that one guy so you tell me 😆

he would have cleared that darn bar, if it wasn't for that meddling knob.

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4 hours ago, André Toulon said:

There's.... Olympic break dancing?

I was today years old when my dumb white ass found out that it's called breaking and its apparently offensive to call it breakdancing because marketers or something.

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The biggest controversy was that awful “breaking” routine to that awful fuckin music. It was awful and an insult to break dancing. Maybe an insult to all hip hop. Idk what is going on with me lately but this routine hit me  in a way that made me wanna break my device like I really hope the other routines were true to the art and not this both hilarious and rage inducing routine 

 

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