The Rise of America, BRICS, and the Industrial Revolution

[Distortedreasoning]

7 minutes ago, André Toulon said:

You just got here, so that's a fair assertion....but that's not what's happening. This rhetoric of distorted's is far older than the conflict in Ukraine.

I even agree with him on a few things but he's all finger wags with no solution in mind.

I don't find him as abrasive as his pal was...the guy who wants to shame people for not forcefully breaking from the 2 party system and just tossing votes at green regardless of what trash they are propping up as a candidate.

I think I can be persuaded to even be in this camp if they had anything other than a list of American atrocities.

They are literally trying to hide slavery, revert women's rights back to the 30s, and make it ok to harass anyone who doesn't immediately identify with their genitals....I don't need to look at the shit they've done abroad to sell me on the "America is shitty and not as great as we think" platform...But I'm gonna need more than tears to make it my mantra.

i mean you know how shitty this country is here at home, how hard is it to imagine we are just as shitty abroad? 

you cant expect me to come up with a solution to something as big as this. theres been greater minds that have been trying for far longer.

i can only say whats worked in the past, as things we can try. the path to change is one that will require a lot of work and help. 

 

 

[André Toulon]

8 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

i mean you know how shitty this country is here at home, how hard is it to imagine we are just as shitty abroad? 

you cant expect me to come up with a solution to something as big as this. theres been greater minds that have been trying for far longer.

i can only say whats worked in the past, as things we can try. the path to change is one that will require a lot of work and help. 

 

 

It's not hard to imagine.

You're still acting like we can't see. But the issue with your incessant prattling on about the imperialist monster that is America is that it is literally not helping anyone.

It's just a rather....hmm, what's the word I want here....benign talking point that some people use to seem like they have their thumb on the pulse of democracy.  We all see it, but damn....how about getting America to jump out our own asses before we go championing dictators.

Edited June 8, 2023 by André Toulon

[scoobdog]

42 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

 

See? 

Like Buddy said, he's been at this for a bit.  He's one of the boards earliest Bernie Bros, if that gives you an idea, and his original discontent with a Democratic Party that would push a Hillary Clinton over Bernie is certainly not misplaced.  It's simply been morphing into an apocalyptic vision that strips it of its rationality.

[Icarus27k]

54 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

 

The Ukraine war has messed some people up. Some decided to throw in with Russia in this conflict and are thus sprouting Russian government talking points on other topics.

 

It's loyalty in a way, but loyalty to Russia. 

 

This comment of mine, I actually returned to this thread to change it after thinking longer about it because it gives off a meanness that I didn't intend when I wrote it. 

But then I saw a few people have already responded to it. 

[Distortedreasoning]

7 minutes ago, André Toulon said:

It's not hard to imagine.

You're still acting like we can't see. But the issue with your incessant prattling on about the imperialist monster that is America is that it is literally not helping anyone.

It's just a rather....hmm, what's the word I want here....benign talking point that some people use to seem like they have their thumb on the pulse of democracy.  We all see it, but damn....how about getting America to jump out our own asses before we go championing dictators.

i see it as all connecting, which is why im just as focused as i am with foreign affairs as i am with domestic ones. so its not an act, but more as something i dont see people talk about. like how am i gonna know, you dont know how shitty we are abroad if i dont see it talked much at all? 

 

i dont agree with the "dictator" labels being thrown around by this place which is the same views as msm. they literally say that about anybody we are not supposed to like and its obviously made to draw negative sentiments and manipulate us to feel a certain way. 

[Icarus27k]

Dictatorships are easy to recognize. Russia and China have no democratic governments and leaders who want to rule until they die. 

[Distortedreasoning]

31 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

Like Buddy said, he's been at this for a bit.  He's one of the boards earliest Bernie Bros, if that gives you an idea, and his original discontent with a Democratic Party that would push a Hillary Clinton over Bernie is certainly not misplaced.  It's simply been morphing into an apocalyptic vision that strips it of its rationality.

i never voted for bernie. he wasnt even my top candidate, i liked jill/ajamu much better. i only acknowledge that he would have gotten my vote if he got the nomination since he ran on some much needed progressive platforms. the push to hillary was disappointing but expected. 

[Distortedreasoning]

2 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

Dictatorships are easy to recognize. Russia and China have no democratic governments and leaders who want to rule until they die. 

false, you got no idea how their system works. both leaders are very popular by their own people. and both dont get to do whatever they want. 

[Icarus27k]

1 minute ago, Distortedreasoning said:

false, you got no idea how their system works. both leaders are very popular by their own people. and both dont get to do whatever they want. 

Yes, they do get to do whatever they want. They will kill any serious opposition to retain that ability. 

My specific points were: they are not democratic governments and they have rulers who want to stay in power forever. 

[Distortedreasoning]

both russia and china run elections. 

the only one you could say that doesnt is the dprk. and even then i would say their situation is more nuanced. 

[Icarus27k]

1 minute ago, Distortedreasoning said:

both russia and china run elections. 

the only one you could say that doesnt is the dprk. and even then i would say their situation is more nuanced. 

Russia and China don't have real elections. They have show elections at gunpoint. 

[scoobdog]

2 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

both russia and china run elections. 

the only one you could say that doesnt is the dprk. and even then i would say their situation is more nuanced. 

You know “dictators” are elected, right?

[Distortedreasoning]

1 minute ago, Icarus27k said:

Russia and China don't have real elections. They have show elections at gunpoint. 

of course you would say that, but it doesnt make it true. 

 

[Distortedreasoning]

3 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

You know “dictators” are elected, right?

you guys got non msm or western media proof. or media not funded by usa/the west? 

[scoobdog]

4 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

you guys got non msm or western media proof. or media not funded by usa/the west? 

Proof of what?

[Distortedreasoning]

1 minute ago, scoobdog said:

Proof of what?

that their elections are shams.

[stilgar]

1 hour ago, Distortedreasoning said:

believe it or not, i do pay attention, and have been paying attention for a while now.

This is fucking hilarious.

[André Toulon]

2 hours ago, Distortedreasoning said:

 like how am i gonna know, you dont know how shitty we are abroad if i dont see it talked much at all? 

 

Ok, well since I've never said these words to you specifically, you now know that I'm aware. I've had this conversation several times with another user and often said "I agree with you, but I am not going to use it to leverage these other shitty nations as correct" and it was spat back at me ad nauseam. And in an accusing way. "You're ok with America bullying the poor democratic republic of Russia" and I'm like "no I'm not and that's not what's happening" and then it's "UKRAINIAN NAZIS" and I'm just like "why would I respond to this more that the several fucking times I already did"

but I'm rambling. So tell me. If Americans, enmasse, start ignoring our own issues and instead latch onto global issues, will that fix things domestically, or does it seem backwards to expect our government to treat Putin and Jong like democratic peers when we can't even let our citizens with breast decide what goes in and come out of their bodies. 

Like I said, if it were a sound argument with a consistent backing, I would say we should look into it, but the general beginning and end of this argument is always "just let the crazy guy kill the people around them and just pretend it isn't happening.  Surely expansion of power by a megalomaniac can't go bad. Fuck it and fuck them."

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by André Toulon

[Top Gun]

20 hours ago, Distortedreasoning said:

false, you got no idea how their system works. both leaders are very popular by their own people. and both dont get to do whatever they want. 

No one could possibly be this stupid.

[naraku360]

23 hours ago, Distortedreasoning said:

im just taking a guess since many people here dont really say what they believe in *foreign policy wise* or dont make many threads about what is going on with our global affairs. many of the points of view ive seen express here are much in line with msm talking points. that is to say, theres no difference between the arguments here, and the ones made by the state. so if i guessed wrong, my bad. 

 

believe it or not, i do pay attention, and have been paying attention for a while now. i feel that its an important part in helping to explain the why things are the way they are in society. this goes beyond  the basic democrat/republican, us/them narratives that dominate the nations politics today. 

 

 

I'm pretty sure if you asked anyone here if they like Democrats, most would land between "ew, no" to "I guess a couple, sometimes."

They way I feel is thoroughly outlined by Buddy. I'm no fan of America. Not domestically, not globally. It's more complicated than everything the US government does is good/bad. Sometimes it does good, occasionally, usually by accident. It mostly sucks. But in terms of places to live, the more isolationist you get, the more dubious the countries tend to be. N. Korea is not a good place to live. China is not a good place to live. Russia is not a good place to live. These are statements about the current state of those countries as they are. It isn't like an attack on the citizens or anything. Just that the governments are horrifying. Like it or not, America may be rapidly descending toward fascism, that doesn’t mean we're all the way there. Right now, the extremism of Republican politicians and propagandists take far more precedence over whatever war crimes we committed to create bad overseas conditions. They're literally calling for being LGBT to be a crime punishable by death. Openly. No uncertain terms. We aren't completely there yet, but N. Korea, China, and Russia are.

[naraku360]

23 hours ago, Distortedreasoning said:

i mean you know how shitty this country is here at home, how hard is it to imagine we are just as shitty abroad?

Who the fuck even suggested we weren’t shitty abroad?

Who are you arguing against?

Everyone here is openly critical of America. You have no reason to believe just about anyone here loves our foreign policies. You crazy, dude?

[Distortedreasoning]

20 hours ago, André Toulon said:

Ok, well since I've never said these words to you specifically, you now know that I'm aware. I've had this conversation several times with another user and often said "I agree with you, but I am not going to use it to leverage these other shitty nations as correct" and it was spat back at me ad nauseam. And in an accusing way. "You're ok with America bullying the poor democratic republic of Russia" and I'm like "no I'm not and that's not what's happening" and then it's "UKRAINIAN NAZIS" and I'm just like "why would I respond to this more that the several fucking times I already did"

but I'm rambling. So tell me. If Americans, enmasse, start ignoring our own issues and instead latch onto global issues, will that fix things domestically, or does it seem backwards to expect our government to treat Putin and Jong like democratic peers when we can't even let our citizens with breast decide what goes in and come out of their bodies. 

Like I said, if it were a sound argument with a consistent backing, I would say we should look into it, but the general beginning and end of this argument is always "just let the crazy guy kill the people around them and just pretend it isn't happening.  Surely expansion of power by a megalomaniac can't go bad. Fuck it and fuck them."

 

 

ok so yes, we both agree, this country sucks all around. im not gonna argue, you should all support these "shitty" countries just cuz. i only encourage conversation. i have my own reasons aside from "america sucks" to give support to those nations. i dont buy the msm propaganda thrown at those nations. i asked before but i'll ask again, how can people believe our country when they got a history of lying about said "bad guys". 

 

im not about ignoring our issues here at home, but more about also paying attention to what is going on abroad. some believe that method of making allies has worked in the past in bringing about change, and can help us today. some would even make a simpler argument, more money for wars, means less money at home. either way, we need all the help we can get. no it wont fix all of our issues here at home, but it can give a better chance than just messing around with the 2 party system. what is it they say about insanity? trying the same thing and expecting different results? 

 

i believe in cooperation. but seeing as this country is not about that, then the next best thing would be to do nothing. again for arguments sake, lets say russia is a crazy nation the usa says, then why would you want to provoke nuclear war with such an unstable country? wouldnt it be best to maybe not do that? they take over ukraine, and then what? the results would not have been as bloody as they are now without our intervention. "standing up" to russia has cost many russians, and many more ukrainian their lives.

 

[Distortedreasoning]

1 hour ago, naraku360 said:

I'm pretty sure if you asked anyone here if they like Democrats, most would land between "ew, no" to "I guess a couple, sometimes."

They way I feel is thoroughly outlined by Buddy. I'm no fan of America. Not domestically, not globally. It's more complicated than everything the US government does is good/bad. Sometimes it does good, occasionally, usually by accident. It mostly sucks. But in terms of places to live, the more isolationist you get, the more dubious the countries tend to be. N. Korea is not a good place to live. China is not a good place to live. Russia is not a good place to live. These are statements about the current state of those countries as they are. It isn't like an attack on the citizens or anything. Just that the governments are horrifying. Like it or not, America may be rapidly descending toward fascism, that doesn’t mean we're all the way there. Right now, the extremism of Republican politicians and propagandists take far more precedence over whatever war crimes we committed to create bad overseas conditions. They're literally calling for being LGBT to be a crime punishable by death. Openly. No uncertain terms. We aren't completely there yet, but N. Korea, China, and Russia are.

those "whatever warcrimes" have resulted in millions dead. and just in this century alone. so lets not make light of that issue. but yes, there does need to be a fight to protect the marginalized in this country. 

tho i would argue this place is in worse shape than china as far as standard of living, since the quality of life metrics in china are higher than they are here, plus they eliminated homelessness, and have an amazing public transit system, countrywide. i seen some nice things out of russia like a good public transit system, and decent housing. dprk, while poor, still manages to house and feed their citizens, despite facing heavy sanctions. yes, they all have many issues, but you could say  that about every country.

 

 

 

[André Toulon]

But dude, you say all of this on the internet you're allowed to have, on the phone that's not blocked to the vast majority of the world, to voice the opinions that we can all see and won't be killed for.

I need to find Brittany Griners rant about the conditions in Russia. 

Now, it is easy to say her statements may have been "bought" and she was in prison, but she wasn't in prison the entire time. I mean, you can't possibly deny the fact the Russia wildly drafted civilians to help in their war efforts.  Well, America has a draft system as well....but does it just take men, women, the elderly  and children alike?  That is what they did in Russia, but that could easily be propaganda. I'll concede that.....but do YOU really think it is. 

Would you trade your home/apt/whatever that you have here for one of those NK lofts you're going on about here. I..... honestly can't see how a mass transit system is worth the stress of living under such a power siphoning psycho.

But to answer one of your questions with certainty.....They take over Ukraine, and then what?  And then you push your influence further than that. Like, do you really believe Putin JUST wanted Ukraine, and then he was gonna retire?

Sure, as I've mentioned ....some of our info may be hyperbolic....same with their info on us. But I don't think it's a reason to laud these tyrants. And no, that's not me lauding our very obvious tyrants.

But this....I want this to be my last post in this...

I come to rants to laugh....not to participate...not sure why I get myself in these conversations. especially when if anything, you are far more passionate about it. Keep up the good fight and I hope you reach your goal....America's foreign policy isn't on my top ten lists to give a shit about when I'm raising 2 children in the evil imperialist monster... America's Putin boner is a lot less my focal point rn than making sure neither of my children are shot because they didn't properly follow the instructions of our own militant pigdogs. 

Was I critical enough of America, or does it only count if I talk about how much the people in NK and Russia love being there.

Edited June 9, 2023 by André Toulon

[André Toulon]

3 hours ago, Distortedreasoning said:

those "whatever warcrimes"

 

 

 

As long as there is war, there will be war crimes. Do you honestly think us minding our own business will stop war completely.

Keep in mind, I'm not gearing up to blast you if you say yes....I'm honestly asking, and a follow up to that being, if we just disbanded our military, and removed our influence from every other country, would that ultimately be the end of war as we know it and do you honestly believe money not spent on war would find its way into the pockets of the people? Or would some greedy higher up just abscond with those funds, and have us all still in this backwards ass bullshit of a government and economy. 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by André Toulon

[naraku360]

4 hours ago, Distortedreasoning said:

those "whatever warcrimes" have resulted in millions dead. and just in this century alone. so lets not make light of that issue. but yes, there does need to be a fight to protect the marginalized in this country. 

tho i would argue this place is in worse shape than china as far as standard of living, since the quality of life metrics in china are higher than they are here, plus they eliminated homelessness, and have an amazing public transit system, countrywide. i seen some nice things out of russia like a good public transit system, and decent housing. dprk, while poor, still manages to house and feed their citizens, despite facing heavy sanctions. yes, they all have many issues, but you could say  that about every country.

 

 

 

American war crimes are not going to convince me to support dictatorial governments no matter America's involvement in their creation.

You can cry propaganda all you want, it does not change that the countries we are talking about have highly restrictive governments. Places with fullblown death camps.

Edited June 9, 2023 by naraku360

[Top Gun]

13 hours ago, Distortedreasoning said:

i believe in cooperation. but seeing as this country is not about that, then the next best thing would be to do nothing. again for arguments sake, lets say russia is a crazy nation the usa says, then why would you want to provoke nuclear war with such an unstable country? wouldnt it be best to maybe not do that? they take over ukraine, and then what? the results would not have been as bloody as they are now without our intervention. "standing up" to russia has cost many russians, and many more ukrainian their lives.

So when Russia illegally invades Ukraine under false pretenses and tries to depose its (democratically-elected) leader and replace him with a puppet, you're saying the Ukrainians should just lie back and think of Putin. But when the US illegally invaded Iraq under false pretenses and deposed its (own-people-gassing) leader, well then of course it was right for the Iraqis to rise up against their evil oppressors. Such a consistent worldview.

[Icarus27k]

18 hours ago, Top Gun said:

No one could possibly be this stupid.

The idea that Putin and Xi are "popular with their people". 

[naraku360]

1 hour ago, Top Gun said:

So when Russia illegally invades Ukraine under false pretenses and tries to depose its (democratically-elected) leader and replace him with a puppet, you're saying the Ukrainians should just lie back and think of Putin. But when the US illegally invaded Iraq under false pretenses and deposed its (own-people-gassing) leader, well then of course it was right for the Iraqis to rise up against their evil oppressors. Such a consistent worldview.

Hang on, man. Putin was elected democratically, once his opponents were dead.

[naraku360]

You know what's way more democratic than America's stupid 2 party system?

 

China's 1 party system. Way more fair.

[Icarus27k]

Nothing tells me that Russia is a free, progressive country as much as when ordinary Russian people flee from reporters doing "man on the street" interviews because they're terrified of what will happen to them if they say the wrong thing. 

[Distortedreasoning]

On 6/9/2023 at 3:37 AM, André Toulon said:

But dude, you say all of this on the internet you're allowed to have, on the phone that's not blocked to the vast majority of the world, to voice the opinions that we can all see and won't be killed for.

I need to find Brittany Griners rant about the conditions in Russia. 

Now, it is easy to say her statements may have been "bought" and she was in prison, but she wasn't in prison the entire time. I mean, you can't possibly deny the fact the Russia wildly drafted civilians to help in their war efforts.  Well, America has a draft system as well....but does it just take men, women, the elderly  and children alike?  That is what they did in Russia, but that could easily be propaganda. I'll concede that.....but do YOU really think it is. 

Would you trade your home/apt/whatever that you have here for one of those NK lofts you're going on about here. I..... honestly can't see how a mass transit system is worth the stress of living under such a power siphoning psycho.

But to answer one of your questions with certainty.....They take over Ukraine, and then what?  And then you push your influence further than that. Like, do you really believe Putin JUST wanted Ukraine, and then he was gonna retire?

Sure, as I've mentioned ....some of our info may be hyperbolic....same with their info on us. But I don't think it's a reason to laud these tyrants. And no, that's not me lauding our very obvious tyrants.

But this....I want this to be my last post in this...

I come to rants to laugh....not to participate...not sure why I get myself in these conversations. especially when if anything, you are far more passionate about it. Keep up the good fight and I hope you reach your goal....America's foreign policy isn't on my top ten lists to give a shit about when I'm raising 2 children in the evil imperialist monster... America's Putin boner is a lot less my focal point rn than making sure neither of my children are shot because they didn't properly follow the instructions of our own militant pigdogs. 

Was I critical enough of America, or does it only count if I talk about how much the people in NK and Russia love being there.

the brittany griner situation was unfortunate. i truly believe any other time, they would have not done anything to her. but you got to take into consideration she was legally detained, and put into prisoned for 6 months so her views are gonna be reflected on that. plus she was still being held *what for?* by some intelligence agency for something like a few weeks upon her return. im glad they were able to put enough pressure on biden to do the right thing. 

 

-as to your point about the russian draft, i will not say i 100% for sure know that any civilians werent drafted. but from what i seen, it doesnt look like they did. they got prison conscripts, their standing army, and tapped into the huge supply of reservist they have. they where able to get the numbers they needed for the different stages of their operation. on the other hand, i have seen more videos of ukrainian civilians, including children and elders, getting forcefully abducted into the army. i mean all we got are some social media videos, with no investigation. so not sure what else you go by aside from state sources? 

 

-north korea, no i would not trade my home/apartment to live in dprk. the point i was trying to make with north korea is that despite being a poor country, they still aim to, and house most people, they are able to give them some type of mobility, and they are not starving. the country is still poor as shit from the harsh sanctions imposed on them. they live in a condition where they have enough guns pointed at them to annihilate them off the map. yes the government is more leaning towards the authoritarian scale, people have less "freedoms" than we do here. i have never denied that. but to analyze the situation as just "kim is crazy" as a gotcha point seems lazy at best. 

 

- i know the russian situation is not at the top list of concerns for most of us here in the country. we living in the times of fall of the empire and things are only getting worse and will get worse. people just personally got enough on their plate i get it. lives are in danger constantly. food and shelter are becoming much harder to provide. and thats not even mentioning other shit like more freedoms being taken away like in florida or child labor making a come back in many states.  

 

with all that said, thank you for the honest engagement. 

[Icarus27k]

We all know Biden was the one who needed to do the right thing in the kidnapping of Griner. He was clearly the moral actor in that situation. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Icarus27k

[Distortedreasoning]

On 6/9/2023 at 3:44 AM, André Toulon said:

As long as there is war, there will be war crimes. Do you honestly think us minding our own business will stop war completely.

Keep in mind, I'm not gearing up to blast you if you say yes....I'm honestly asking, and a follow up to that being, if we just disbanded our military, and removed our influence from every other country, would that ultimately be the end of war as we know it and do you honestly believe money not spent on war would find its way into the pockets of the people? Or would some greedy higher up just abscond with those funds, and have us all still in this backwards ass bullshit of a government and economy. 

 

the world is becoming ever more connected than in any time in history. industry, culture, and the social, are all becoming more familiar. you know how deep someone like china is integrated into the world economy? or even russia? im not saying we withdraw our troops and all the world stops going to war. but just take the recent example in the middle east. china gets involved, and they land a peace deal between saudi arabia and iran.  and now its looking like more and more that tensions are coming down in the region. even looking like there could be peace talks in the making with syria which has been getting plundered by us/nato imperialist.

 

does this mean there will be an automatic influx of money that will be going into public funding? nope. this will still need to be fought for. but it will be more difficult for them to not spend it on the public. 

[André Toulon]

14 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

We all know Biden was the one who needed to do the right thing in the kidnapping of Griner. He was clearly the moral actor in that situation. 

I lean more to your way of thinking than distorted's, but she wasn't kidnapped. She fucked up in a country that doesn't fuck around. As much as it's bullshit all the way around.....she wasn't kidnapped. She fucked up.

She had played several off seasons over there....she was well aware of how they operate, and tried her luck....she lost.

Now, there is more going on than a routine drug charge....Russia knew they could leverage her for something they wanted, and got it.....so the entire thing was just dishonest but I can't give her a pass.....if she got caught here in a state where cannabis is illegal, I'd be all up in arms about how they are locking up nonviolent users of a substance that been proven blah, blah blah....but trying to move it in and out of Russia..... dumb.

Edited June 10, 2023 by André Toulon

[discolé monade]

1 hour ago, André Toulon said:

I lean more to your way of thinking than distorted's, but she wasn't kidnapped. She fucked up in a country that doesn't fuck around. As much as it's bullshit all the way around.....she wasn't kidnapped. She fucked up.

She had played several off seasons over there....she was well aware of how they operate, and tried her luck....she lost.

Now, there is more going on than a routine drug charge....Russia knew they could leverage her for something they wanted, and got it.....so the entire thing was just dishonest but I can't give her a pass.....if she got caught here in a state where cannabis is illegal, I'd be all up in arms about how they are locking up nonviolent users of a substance that been proven blah, blah blah....but trying to move it in and out of Russia..... dumb.

this. 

she knew she was in the fuck around and find out front runner of places  to fuck around and find in. *don't even care if that makes sense*

she tried to pull something. and she got caught. things could have been a hell of a lot worse.

but i digress.

the media painted a completely different picture. which, was the exact distraction, ^they^ thought ^we^ needed. 

[Distortedreasoning]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:13 AM, naraku360 said:

American war crimes are not going to convince me to support dictatorial governments no matter America's involvement in their creation.

You can cry propaganda all you want, it does not change that the countries we are talking about have highly restrictive governments. Places with fullblown death camps.

you dont even gotta support any of these countries. im trying to open up the conversation to go further than "dictator bad".  you cannot get the full scope without talking about it. regardless of how you feel about "dictatorships", we play a role in all of of those conflicts. 

 

 

[stilgar]

This nerd says he is "trying to open a conversation" when all his arguments are America bad.

[naraku360]

4 hours ago, Distortedreasoning said:

you dont even gotta support any of these countries. im trying to open up the conversation to go further than "dictator bad".  you cannot get the full scope without talking about it. regardless of how you feel about "dictatorships", we play a role in all of of those conflicts. 

 

 

So, how does this open up conversation beyond dictator bad?

What do you want? Should I asterisk every criticism of N. Korea's government with an essay on how actually N. Korea's government can't be held accountable since America made it that way?

[André Toulon]

5 hours ago, Distortedreasoning said:

 regardless of how you feel about "dictatorships", we play a role in all of of those conflicts. 

 

 

I think our influence (as we've been led to believe) is to prevent said "dictators" from becoming more powerful and extending their territory.

Now, is there political undertones to it, yes...definitely, but is your solution really to just let it happen because it doesn't effect us yet?

I guess in a more damning spiel, I could say America wants only our inflence to spread and we like to shut down anyone else trying to gain more power or control than us.....But does that change the fact that the others are playin the same game?

We only think we're the boss because " 'Murica, fuck yeah"....But we are holding on by a thread as far a global influence other than our entertainment.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by André Toulon

[Distortedreasoning]

On 6/9/2023 at 2:50 PM, Top Gun said:

So when Russia illegally invades Ukraine under false pretenses and tries to depose its (democratically-elected) leader and replace him with a puppet, you're saying the Ukrainians should just lie back and think of Putin. But when the US illegally invaded Iraq under false pretenses and deposed its (own-people-gassing) leader, well then of course it was right for the Iraqis to rise up against their evil oppressors. Such a consistent worldview.

you are forgetting the coupe, which as much as you want to ignore or downplay, already makes ukraine act in the interest of the west. the "democratically" elected zelensky, ran on a platform for peace and neutrality with russia. he won on that platform, but did everything he could to provoke russia. everything from accepting funding from nato to ignoring the minsk agreement, to talking about joining nato. thats what they call a puppet government, one not acting on its own interest. 

 

the reason for why i say ukraine should surrender is because they are being killed not for their freedom, but for being used as proxies in a war between nato and russia. despite what everyone here thinks, ukraine is losing big and they got no hope in defeating russia. nato has no problem in fighting this war to the last ukranian. giving them weapons is whats gonna keep the killing going. 

[Distortedreasoning]

45 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

So, how does this open up conversation beyond dictator bad?

What do you want? Should I asterisk every criticism of N. Korea's government with an essay on how actually N. Korea's government can't be held accountable since America made it that way?

i dont know what else to tell you if you cant figure this out. 

[stilgar]

13 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

the reason for why i say ukraine should surrender is because they are being killed not for their freedom, but for being used as proxies in a war between nato and russia. despite what everyone here thinks, ukraine is losing big and they got no hope in defeating russia. nato has no problem in fighting this war to the last ukranian. giving them weapons is whats gonna keep the killing going. 

Fuck, you really believe this shit.

[Raptorpat]

20 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

despite what everyone here thinks, ukraine is losing big and they got no hope in defeating russia.

how are we quantifying "winning" and "losing"?

[Distortedreasoning]

32 minutes ago, André Toulon said:

I think our influence (as we've been led to believe) is to prevent said "dictators" from becoming more powerful and extending their territory.

Now, is there political undertones to it, yes...definitely, but is your solution really to just let it happen because it doesn't effect us yet?

I guess in a more damning spiel, I could say America wants only our inflence to spread and we like to shut down anyone else trying to gain more power or control than us.....But does that change the fact that the others are playin the same game?

We only think we're the boss because " 'Murica, fuck yeah"....But we are holding on by a thread as far a global influence other than our entertainment.

 

im in agreement with your damning spiel, america wants to stay on top and is actively trying to shut down anyone else it sees as a threat. i believe this is why we have 800 plus military bases worldwide, and are constantly meddling around the world. i think the other global power, china is taking a different approach which is more about cooperation and willingness to work with somebody. look at how china acts globally, vs how we act. china is building medical facilities and infrastructure in africa, they are building airports and mass transit railways in both africa and in asia. they make trades that benefits both parties involved. does this look like the evil dictator empire that wants to rule the world to you? like mentioned before, they are helping to bring peace in the middle east. how many military bases we see outside of china? 

 

 

[Icarus27k]

38 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

you are forgetting the coupe, which as much as you want to ignore or downplay, already makes ukraine act in the interest of the west. the "democratically" elected zelensky, ran on a platform for peace and neutrality with russia. he won on that platform, but did everything he could to provoke russia. everything from accepting funding from nato to ignoring the minsk agreement, to talking about joining nato. thats what they call a puppet government, one not acting on its own interest. 

 

 

 

None of this justifies or even leads to the conclusion "Russia must invade Ukraine and commit genocide". It's not a very convincing excuse or distraction from the real reason Russia invaded. Imperialism. 

[André Toulon]

1 minute ago, Distortedreasoning said:

im in agreement with your damning spiel, america wants to stay on top and is actively trying to shut down anyone else it sees as a threat. i believe this is why we have 800 plus military bases worldwide, and are constantly meddling around the world. i think the other global power, china is taking a different approach which is more about cooperation and willingness to work with somebody. look at how china acts globally, vs how we act. china is building medical facilities and infrastructure in africa, they are building airports and mass transit railways in both africa and in asia. they make trades that benefits both parties involved. does this look like the evil dictator empire that wants to rule the world to you? like mentioned before, they are helping to bring peace in the middle east. how many military bases we see outside of china? 

 

 

Dude, China is gonna own everything.  It's a different approach because we rely on them to keep building these bases....We owe them trillions.  How are you just ignoring their hand in this

[Distortedreasoning]

18 minutes ago, Raptorpat said:

how are we quantifying "winning" and "losing"?

from what i see, our main objective was to destabilize russia and it has failed. 

first up were the sanctions. the west thought they were gonna make russia go broke, but it ended up backfiring, and now many countries in europe are in the verge recessions due to the high energy cost, as of result of those sanctions. but russia was able to bear the brunt thanks to its allies in china, india, and in the middle east. 

and in the military sense. russia has taken over territory, and has been beating ukraine/nato in battle. we said they will run out of weapons but the opposite is true, they have a far greater manufacturing capacity for war than what nato does. theres plenty of reports of supplies running low for ukraine and have been outgunned and out manned. 

 

[Distortedreasoning]

15 minutes ago, Icarus27k said:

 

None of this justifies or even leads to the conclusion "Russia must invade Ukraine and commit genocide". It's not a very convincing excuse or distraction from the real reason Russia invaded. Imperialism. 

if you are russia, given the situation i outlined, what are your options? what do you do? 

[Icarus27k]

3 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

 we said they will run out of weapons but the opposite is true, they have a far greater manufacturing capacity for war than what nato does. theres plenty of reports of supplies running low for ukraine and have been outgunned and out manned. 

 

 

Russia has only the 11th largest economy in the world, right behind Canada and Brazil. 

 

Russia totally does NOT have a greater manufacturing capacity than NATO, either for war or anything else.

 

War propaganda has to at least be somewhat credible.