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Putin: "Stick to the timeline!"


tsar4

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I still wonder how much blame can be put on NATO or the United States for escalating the situation.  We can all agree that they both have a hand in creating the situation, particularly by meddling in the 2014 election.  But, from the beginning, Biden was out front warning anyone who would listen what was about to happen, weeks before it happened.  Furthermore, there was never any discussions about bringing Ukraine into NATO... the whole uprising in '14 was about them becoming closer to Europe economically which, in of itself, isn't escalatory unless you're dealing with an irrational person.  All of the "escalation" was sequence of phantom red-lines Putin could use to scare off Western partners.

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9 hours ago, matrixman124 said:

Russia isn't on a humanitarian mission but one of conquest

Nobody ITT has said it's a humanitarian mission???

Literally, nobody has suggested that. Quit attacking strawmen, it's very dishonest of you to repeatedly frame the discussion this way. 

Russia is threatened by Ukraine becoming a US proxy state. USA staged a coup to overthrow the elected govt in 2014. USA has been arming and training Nazi militias who have been integrated into the Ukrainian national military and have killed well over 10 thousand Ukrainian citizens who opposed the rightwing US-backed coup. Russia has valid security concerns about a NATO state on its border. 

Why won't anyone answer the simple question of -- how would USA respond to Russia doing 1% of this up against America's borders? 

America can do whatever it wants to protect itself from perceived existential threats, but not Russia? We get it, you are an imperialist. Just acknowledge that, you can't keep playing both sides of "well the US empire did instigate this Russian response, but now that it is happening Russia's response must be quashed by the American empire because it isn't allowed to have 1% of the security concerns that America has, isn't allowed to do anything to defend itself or its people from the ever-encroaching American empire which over the course of the last century has never stopped fucking with that country"

Clown show imperialists go home. 

Edited by NewBluntsworth
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15 hours ago, Sieg67 said:

There's only one other person here(that I'm aware of) that believes in your Russian propaganda horseshit.
Repeating it is not going to change any of our minds.

This is all you people have, dismissing anything that goes against the American empire's line as "Russian propaganda" and saying look at all these good Americans who agree with me in toeing the American empire's line on this, haha we must all be in agreement because we are so right and correct. 

There is very little daylight between you and Cringuy here, imperialist clown. 

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1 hour ago, NewBluntsworth said:

This is all you people have, dismissing anything that goes against the American empire's line as "Russian propaganda" and saying look at all these good Americans who agree with me in toeing the American empire's line on this, haha we must all be in agreement because we are so right and correct. 

There is very little daylight between you and Cringuy here, imperialist clown. 

All I have?  We've discussed this to hell and back.  We've spelled everything out for you but you're just going to believe what you want to believe.
You're a lost cause.

I'm starting to suspect that you're trolling at this point.

Edited by Sieg67
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45 minutes ago, Sieg67 said:

All I have?  We've discussed this to hell and back. 

"Russia invaded Ukraine! RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE! Nothing else matters other than that! No context about why they did so can challenge America's right to drag the entire region into another world war over it! Just because the US routinely & illegally invades, occupies, & nnexes territory in other countries, orchestrating coups and deposing heads of state, killing en masse and doing war crimes with impunity, arming radical far right-wing insurrectionary groups all over the world sowing chaos and forever-war, doesn't mean Russia should get away with doing any single thing that resembles our own country's regular daily foreign policy in order to defend itself from the ever-encroaching threat of our evil super-empire! At least not without America's firepower and military might having a whole shitload of say in the matter, only incidentally reinforcing its own global hegemony in the process! Putin is the new Hitler!!1!11!!"

That about sums up all I've seen from y'all, interspersed with wild swings at poorly constricted strawmen built from on-its-face ridiculous Russia propaganda that no one here believes.

Not exactly 'discussing to hell and back,' but I don't think you guys are trolling I genuinely think it's just brainwash from living in the belly of the beast and being ignorant of perspectives outside of our country's corporate media that only ever toes the US State Dept line. 

Edited by NewBluntsworth
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Nabs thinks that if he keeps repeating complete horseshit a hundred times over it'll magically become true. It's all he has to feel relevant.

For anyone who hasn't done so yet, look up how things actually went down in 2014, and then point and laugh at Nabs some more.

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We've addressed every point and poked holes in every piece of your logic.  It really is as simple as Putin invaded Ukraine but you're trying to make this into something more complex.

Let's think way back.  What reason did Putin initially give to invade Ukraine?  His claim was that it was to de-Nazify Ukraine.  This Nazi problem has been debunked and I've mentioned this previously.
The Russian military invaded under a false pretense and the local Ukrainians told them that there is not a Nazi problem.  So what's the real motivation here?  The goal is land and power.  It's literally that simple.
Putin longs for the old days of Russia's glory.  At the start, Putin even  lied and claimed that Russia was not attacking.  What reason would we have to believe anything he says?

NATO can't be an excuse because they're not a part of NATO.  Putin has always been against NATO because it threatens his domination goals.
Hell, Putin's invasion only serves as encouragement for Ukraine to join.   If Russia wasn't a threat, there's a good chance that there would be no talks about it.

Zelensky is a Democratically elected president.  Ukraine put him in power.  Not us or anyone else.   Who would Russia try to save Ukraine from?  The man that they themselves elected?
Anything that may have happened in 2014 in Ukraine has no pull here.

You complain that the US is prolonging the war.  Well, yeah.  If it weren't for the aid from us and other allies, Putin in all likelihood would have succeeded by now or at least, things would be going much more poorly for Ukraine.
Overall, there's literally no excuse to invade a non-threatening country.  They're killing and raping Ukrainians as well as torturing children as young as four.

You claim you're anti-war but let me ask you this, if somebody started to invade the US, should we defend ourselves or should we just let them take us over for the sake of ending the war?
Let's make this clear, nobody here wants war.  What we want is for Ukraine to succeed in fending off Russia.   If Russia would stop attacking, this war would literally be over.  That would be most ideal.

Russia launched a huge wave on Russia propaganda on FB and other social media platforms.  I hate to say it but it has had a enormous influence on American politics and public opinion.
It's amazing how easily people can be duped and groomed to ignore that obvious in favor of wild conspiracy theories.

Edited by Sieg67
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Russia withdraws its troops from key city as Ukrainian forces close in

https://globalnews.ca/news/9169383/russia-ukraine-war-annexation-nato/

"Russia said Saturday it has withdrawn its troops from the once-occupied city of Lyman, as Ukraine’s eastern counteroffensive recaptures more territory.

Russia’s Tass and RIA news agencies, citing the Russian defense ministry, made the announcement.

Lyman is 160 kilometers (100 miles) southeast of Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second-largest city. Ukrainian forces had pushed across the Oskil River as part of a counteroffensive that saw Kyiv retake vast swathes of territory beginning in September.

Lyman, a key transportation hub, had been an important site in the Russian front line for both ground communications and logistics. Now with it gone, Ukraine can push further potentially into the occupied Luhansk region, which is one of four regions that Russia annexed Friday after an internationally criticized referendum vote at gunpoint."

 

 

Russia is going to lose "its territory".  Sure looks like the UA is continuing to advance and retake their land at a considerable pace.

Edited by Master-Debater131
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This think tank is the source of most of the battlefield maps you've probably seen floating around, and they generally do detailed daily breakdowns of troop movements based on available evidence. Yesterday they posted a fascinating take on the significance of some of the recent discourse by prominent Russians:
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-october-2

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Things aren't looking good for the Russian military.  Here are a few things that have been reported.

 

Russians are being provided with uniforms not suited for anything outside of a game of paintball.

Soldiers have been seen entering battle with flip flops.

Some soldiers have to share a single gun.

Putin is using prison inmates as soldiers.  Unsurprisingly, this was a bad idea and is now backfiring.
The Russian Soldiers are now turning their guns on each other.


 

 

In other news, Russians are fleeing Russia to avoid the draft.  Estimated numbers are 700k so far.

Edited by Sieg67
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