PhilosipherStoned Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Doom Metal Alchemist said: Do we really have to go over the semantics of what constitutes "fiction"? Whenever Bouvre posts her published works here, is there any question as to whether what she wrote actually happened in real life or is it just assumed she's telling a story? By the same token, does this make her a liar? A lie is Fiction disguised as truth, fiction is truth disguised as a lie. That's how I've often heard it put, but yeah it should be obvious those two or just trying to get some more jabs in before the bell rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackNoir Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 30 minutes ago, Dark_Cloud_Overhead said: I thought you were maybe just joking before, but do you really not understand what a lie is and that you're comparing apples and oranges here? A lie has the intention to deceive. Someone writing a fiction novel or something like that does so with the intent to entertain, not to deceive and get people to believe what they are saying is true. Kind of a big difference. Define fiction...... Do that, and I'll stfu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobdog Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 Well, this is an odd discussion.... Fiction writing isn't lying for the simple reason that the writer is not the storyteller. Sometimes (in the case of first person) it's a narrator, but most often (in the case of third person limited), the protagonist is telling the story. Now, the storyteller could be a liar, and every storyteller lies sometimes, but the fiction writer Is only acting as a conduit for the storyteller, and the privilege of conveying the story comes at the cost of losing the ability to directly lie to the audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilosipherStoned Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, scoobdog said: Well, this is an odd discussion.... Fiction writing isn't lying for the simple reason that the writer is not the storyteller. Sometimes (in the case of first person) it's a narrator, but most often (in the case of third person limited), the protagonist is telling the story. Now, the storyteller could be a liar, and every storyteller lies sometimes, but the fiction writer Is only acting as a conduit for the storyteller, and the privilege of conveying the story comes at the cost of losing the ability to directly lie to the audience. Odd? Just seems kind of stupid to me at this point, but yeah. I can't believe you... had to add that that for clarification though honestly. This thread just kind of hit an armageddon crux due to certain people being unable to grasp the word fiction like literally at least 3'4 of the english language has ,ore than one percievable definition by itself... If someone were to say to me "Man you must really hate fiction." in the context it was purposefully used against it seems proof enough that since at least 3 different people defaulted to fictional literature...Fuck you Scoob am I really doing this? Fuck all of you. 🙏 Edited April 23, 2021 by PhilosipherStoned Thought about just saying it hit Godwins law, but hey we're being 'technical' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackNoir Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 Fiction=lie Bible=fiction Science Fiction=Science lies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Cloud_Overhead Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 (edited) 19 hours ago, stilgar said: So, if I make up a story but never claim it is true it's not a lie, by your logic. Uh yes, exactly. Fiction is not a lie. Fiction is just something based on imagination and not reality. Lying is telling somebody something you don't believe is true actually is. It's a conscious effort to spread misinformation. By your logic J.K. Rowling and every sci-fi/fantasy writer are serial liars for daring to commit the act of simply putting pen to paper to try and entertain people. Edited April 23, 2021 by Dark_Cloud_Overhead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stilgar Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 32 minutes ago, Dark_Cloud_Overhead said: Lying is telling somebody something you don't believe is true actually is. That is not what a lie is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sieg67 Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 (edited) 19 hours ago, BlackNoir said: Fiction=lie Bible=fiction Science Fiction=Science lies. The Bible is fiction in the sense that it's not true but fiction isn't lying by default. If J.K. Rowling wrote Harry Potter then said it was a true story, that would be lying. You can make the argument that the Bible isn't lying if one believes that it's author or authors didn't write it with the intent to deceive. Like, maybe the stories within the Bible were only used by the Church to trick it's followers after the fact. If that were the case, the Bible can be used to perpetrate falsehoods but the stories in them are not lies, only fiction . Additionally, you have to keep in mind that people who genuinely believe what they preach are not actually lying because they are not actively trying to deceive. Rather, they would simply be giving false information. In other words, it comes down to motive. Edited April 24, 2021 by Sieg67 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackNoir Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Sieg67 said: The Bible is fiction in the sense that it's not true but fiction isn't lying by default. If J.K. Rowling wrote Harry Potter then said it was a true story, that would be lying. You can make the argument that the Bible isn't lying if one believes that it's author or authors didn't write it with the intent to deceive. Like, maybe the stories within the Bible were only used by the Church to trick it's followers after the fact. If that were the case, the Bible can be used to perpetrate falsehoods but the stories in them are not lies, only fiction . Additionally, you have to keep in mind that people who genuinely believe what they preach are not actually lying because they are not actively trying to deceive. Rather, they would simply be giving false information. In other words, it comes down to motive. The bible is a stolen reconstruct with the intent to deceive.....It's a lie. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobdog Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 3 hours ago, Sieg67 said: The Bible is fiction in the sense that it's not true but fiction isn't lying by default. If J.K. Rowling wrote Harry Potter then said it was a true story, that would be lying. You can make the argument that the Bible isn't lying if one believes that it's author or authors didn't write it with the intent to deceive. Like, maybe the stories within the Bible were only used by the Church to trick it's followers after the fact. If that were the case, the Bible can be used to perpetrate falsehoods but the stories in them are not lies, only fiction . Additionally, you have to keep in mind that people who genuinely believe what they preach are not actually lying because they are not actively trying to deceive. Rather, they would simply be giving false information. In other words, it comes down to motive. 1 hour ago, BlackNoir said: The bible is a stolen reconstruct with the intent to deceive.....It's a lie. The problem with the bible is that it purports to be a direct recounting of historical events. People like to refer to indigenous mythologies (because that is what the bible really is) as fiction, but they aren't exactly. They were always intended to be direct recountings of historical events, or, if you will, a fiction disguised as a historical record. Mythologies are lies, and they have always been lies. Sometimes they are well-meant "white lies" that use fictional narrative as a way of explaining the unexplainable to people. Over time, these white lies become black as the the priest and warrior classes used myths to obtain power. The point is that the fiction itself isn't a lie: the lie comes about in how the fiction is portrayed as historical rather than fictional. That being said, mythologies are always lies even when the intent isn't to deceive. They misrepresent what they are to truthfully explain the nature of the world, and that's the fundamental question when it comes to drawing the line between creating a fiction and creating a lie. Another way to frame the distinction is that a standard fiction has a completely invisible creator, a mythic fiction has a false creator: myths are the historical record of an artificial witness. As long as there has been storytelling, there has always been a clear separation between myths and other fictional narration devices like poems, prose or plays, with the staging of the fiction acting as a frame for its purpose. Fiction ≠ Lie Myths/Bible = Fiction Myths/Bible = Lie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molarbear Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 No. Reading the Title of this thread gave me a fucking stroke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seight Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 On 4/23/2021 at 2:01 AM, BlackNoir said: Fiction=lie Bible=fiction Science Fiction=Science lies. Science Bible = Textbook wait no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostrek Posted April 24, 2021 Author Share Posted April 24, 2021 3 hours ago, molarbear said: No. Reading the Title of this thread gave me a fucking stroke why @molarbear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberbully Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 14 minutes ago, ghostrek said: why @molarbear Tsk, tsk.....poor ghostrek, unable to ever read the room Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vamped Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 Ahem ... my two cents that nobody asked for. The bible was written and edited and re-edited to fit whoever was the most powerful or influential at the time with the purpose of controlling people and society. Its literally full of mythology and creation narratives. I think if you can get something positive from it than great. My views on Christianity are super liberal though. Plus a couple of stories I read seems like Jesus is like .... be cool, have faith, love each other .... and then somebody does something stupid ... and hes like BRUH WHAT DID I JUST FUCKING SAY?! only you know .... not exactly in those words. You can use the Bible and interpret it however you want. Its just a jumble of some dudes ideas and desires for society. Justify whatever you want with it ... silencing and abusing women sure, being angry at gay people for loving each other while you're secretly having gay sex behind a dirty wendys, sure why not, justifying slavery or figuring out a way to have a shit ton of wives ... of course help yourself Plus the whole white Jesus thing ... Thats just what I believe ... as a Christian that goes to a non denominational church sometimes when I need to be uplifted ... so ...yknow whatever 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sieg67 Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, BlackNoir said: The bible is a stolen reconstruct with the intent to deceive.....It's a lie. I was thinking about adding this but I was trying not to go on too long. Also I haven't looked into it's History enough to speak with the utmost confidence but I do believe you are correct. Edited April 24, 2021 by Sieg67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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