Black Clover is now Less Formulaic and Treats Women Better than Shonen Saint My Hero Academia

[Daos]

The art just doesn't look very strong to me. Why is it so much worse than an Ecchi from like.. .10 years ago?

[ben0119]

1 hour ago, Daos said:

WUT.

Luffy, Naruto, Goku, Natsu and about 90 percent of Shonen MC's are the same. Little to no interest in the opposite sex, and then some wife is forced on them at the end of their adventure.

BC isn't a parody though. It just copies stuff. Copying isn't parody. That's why so many people hate it. They saw a lazy show that lazily copied better Shonen and formed a gigantic blob of tropes.

How is Natsu oblivious?  He clearly sees that women, including Lucy, have a thing for him.  In fact I haven't even noticed that he's pushed her away, except maybe early on, since his girlfriend or would-be girlfriend, Lisanna, died.  Luffy has had some reactions that show he wasn't like that originally, but Oda retconned this and has since said that Luffy is asexual, which is bullshit.  Characters can have other things take priority over romance and not be asexual.  Luffy already acts child-like and naive, gullible, innocent... so with this Oda is saying Luffy is basically literally retarded.  Since his brain is apparently so child-like he doesn't even have attraction to any member of the opposite sex (or same, whatever), and just cares about food, friends, and adventure.  Early on he even only drank milk, and that wasn't a 4Kids creation.  Naruto wants Sakura, but she doesn't want him.  He eventually matures and figures this out.  He also finally figures out that Hinata wants him after she blurts it out.  I hear the rest of the relationship is basically off-screened though lololol.  Goku I don't know what to make of.  He seems to love his wife and family, but seems so clueless about everything.  I did hear that Toriyama had thought about putting Goku with Bulma and regretted not doing it.  Would it be kind of weird since she met him as a kid?  I think the Chichi thing was forced on Toriyama by the editors at Jump.  At least Kenshin was intelligent, not oblivious to romance, was a breath of fresh air as a shonen protagonist.  Too bad the author turned out to be a pedo and the series is forever tainted.  I had just finished re-binging the series too and was going to read the manga ending arc but now I don't even care to anymore.

Given that Asta literally wants to marry a nun, I can't take that as anything but a joke or parody.  I mean, it's obviously a joke to everyone else in the series?  This series isn't meant to be taken completely seriously, which is what a lot of you are missing.

It hasn't been lazy at all though.  I just ran down numerous things that are almost unheard of in shonen and Black Clover is pulling them all out.

Edited December 1, 2018 by ben0119

[Daos]

I've never seen any indication that Natsu thinks Lucy wants to be his gf or make out with him.

[ben0119]

5 minutes ago, Daos said:

The art just doesn't look very strong to me. Why is it so much worse than an Ecchi from like.. .10 years ago?

I don't mind the art that much, but it does vary from episode to episode.  There has been great art and animation, especially for some of the fights.  I just said I simply prefer the women's looks in the manga over the anime.  But I don't hate the look of the anime or the girls there.  I mean I didn't read the manga first or find out about this until after the fact.

[ben0119]

2 minutes ago, Daos said:

I've never seen any indication that Natsu thinks Lucy wants to be his gf or make out with him.

I don't know what you've been watching then.

[ben0119]

Oh yeah, the mangaka drew this nigh trolling color spread lmao.

Also wasn't sure the Hange-like/female Mayuri girl that wants to experiment on Asta was considered attracted to him that way lmao.

[Top Gun]

ITT ben thinks that shit-tier writing is "parody" because yes he really is that oblivious.

[ben0119]

Hey I'm not the only one who thinks so and I'm not the even the one who came up with that idea.  I mean there is no way someone would make a series like this intentionally and not have it be at least semi-parody.

And you wouldn't be calling it shit-tier writing if you were still watching it right now.  That thing with Noelle revealing her power was so good.

Edited December 1, 2018 by ben0119

[Top Gun]

4 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

Hey I'm not the only one who thinks so and I'm not the even the one who came up with that idea.  I mean there is no way someone would make a series like this intentionally and not have it be at least semi-parody.

And you wouldn't be calling it shit-tier writing if you were still watching it right now.  That thing with Noelle revealing her power was so good.

They would if they were a fuckawful writer.  Every single element in this show has been done far better in at least a dozen other shounen.  There is no reason whatsoever for it to exist.

Also I love how you attempt to talk shit about shows without having the slightest grasp of why they do what they do.  Lie down before you hurt yourself.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Top Gun

[Daos]

Apparently BC was One Punch Man all along and we never knew!

[ben0119]

24 minutes ago, Top Gun said:

They would if they were a fuckawful writer.  Every single element in this show has been done far better in at least a dozen other shounen.  There is no reason whatsoever for it to exist.

Also I love how you attempt to talk shit about shows without having the slightest grasp of why they do what they do.  Lie down before you hurt yourself.

But no one could be that bad a writer.  Well, maybe someone could, but I don't think so in this case.  It has to be intentional parody!  I mean... ASTA WANTS TO MARRY A NUN!  CHARMY FELL FOR A GUY WHO SAVED HER FOOD!  Those are meant to be obvious jokes!  Yami sits there and just makes fun of everyone in the whole show!  And I can't think of too many series that have done team and combo attacks or have the enemy leader be beaten first and be weaker, if at all.  It's almost always 1 v 1 and the big bad is the strongest and beaten last.

Seems like you are the one lying down, since you won't even make the effort to counterpoint me.  So, tell me, did Gundam Unicorn have a nonsensical plot with unlikable characters for really, really good reasons?  I mean, even the Gundam fanboys on the Toonami Showdown podcast had to call it for being shit eventually.  It just turns into silliness.  I mean, maybe you want to want a watch a show about a emo bitchboy and bunch of assholes, with tryhard, sledgehammered anti-war and anti-classism messages - pretentious crap, but I don't.

Edited December 1, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 11/27/2018 at 10:44 PM, EmpressAngel said:

Zoro damn near wrecks the main villain from the Fishman Island arc on his own. The only reason he didn't end it right there is because they were fighting underwater, where the dude who's literally a fish has the advantage, and also he was on a shitload of steroids.

And something like that will always end up happening to prevent Zoro or someone else from getting the kill over Luffy.

[DragonSinger]

Since Ben is not a good character witness for Kekkaishi, I would like to point out that its rating on Mangaupdates is even higher than Hajime no Ippo. 

[PokeNirvash]

ITT: Ben is the most contrarian man on the planet.

[The1gairon]

9 hours ago, ben0119 said:

I don't know what you've been watching then.

Natsu acts 99% asexual. Whenever she points out how embarrassing a situation she's in, his only response is to comment on her weight. There is one time where he thinks of getting past a group of villain lackies by using Lucy's sex appeal to distract them, but it was more in terms of the fun he could have sneaking past them when she does.  Getting a GF doesn't factor at all in any of his motivations so I have no idea where you're getting this from.

Edited December 1, 2018 by elfie

[EmpressAngel]

I'm just gonna leave it at this. I'm a woman who watches Black Clover. I know other women who watch Nlack Clover. I do not know a single woman who would say they find the female characters in this show handled any better than in any other shounen. That really doesn't seem like anything worth praising.

[PokeNirvash]

11 hours ago, Daos said:

The art just doesn't look very strong to me. Why is it so much worse than an Ecchi from like.. .10 years ago?

Five years ago. Seven if you're referring to the Freezing franchise as a whole.

[naraku360]

10 hours ago, ben0119 said:

But no one could be that bad a writer.  Well, maybe someone could, but I don't think so in this case.  It has to be intentional parody!

 

[Daos]

1 hour ago, PokeNirvash said:

Five years ago. Seven if you're referring to the Freezing franchise as a whole.

Manga started in 2007 =P

[Daos]

3 hours ago, elfie said:

Natsu acts 99% asexual. Whenever she points out how embarrassing a situation she's in, his only response is to comment on her weight. There is one time where he thinks of getting past a group of villain lackies by using Lucy's sex appeal to distract them, but it was more in terms of the fun he could have sneaking past them when she does.  Getting a GF doesn't factor at all in any of his motivations so I have no idea where you're getting this from.

Uhhhh keep in mind Ben does not possess the ability to logic and reason due to his various ailments. I have no idea why he thinks Natsu is aware that Lucy likes him and would want an actual relationship with him. Other than wanting to see her naked like.. once... he has displayed no real attraction towards women in general.

It's like telling him that Rey from Star Wars and Kirito are Mary Sues. He's not going to be able to make that connection as he currently lacks the capacity.

[Raptorpat]

lemme sort through this

ok, unlocked, with the worst of the drama relocated to DF

i don't know why y'all can't just get along - but don't reply to me about the drama because i'm just gonna splice it into the other thread

Edited December 1, 2018 by Admin_Raptorpat

[stilgar]

Wow, that was incredibly dumb. 

[Jman]

On 11/30/2018 at 5:14 PM, Winter_Rain said:

You've really mellowed out over the years.  You used to be really relentless with your hateboners at every possible opportunity, but maybe that was just an inevitability of the more toxic environment of the old boards.  

It's a good thing.

Time to reflect does that, thankfully.

That and I do genuinely believe the current On Demand culture makes getting mad at a show dumb when there’s literally five or six other ones available.

[ben0119]

6 hours ago, Daos said:

Uhhhh keep in mind Ben does not possess the ability to logic and reason due to his various ailments. I have no idea why he thinks Natsu is aware that Lucy likes him and would want an actual relationship with him. Other than wanting to see her naked like.. once... he has displayed no real attraction towards women in general.

It's like telling him that Rey from Star Wars and Kirito are Mary Sues. He's not going to be able to make that connection as he currently lacks the capacity.

You tell that to me, but apparently if something isn't spoonfed to you, it's "plothole" or "headcanon" or "fanfiction."  To me, it comes of that Natsu does pick up on it, just from the way he treats Lucy.  Do you see him treating any of his other friends like that?  And yes, he has tried to see her naked, and there was clearly a romantic attraction with Lisanna.  Lucy even said "so Natsu used to have a little girlfriend huh."  Maybe I am just reading into things that aren't there, but that's how it comes off to me.

Mary Sues... care to explain how that is the case again?  Because Rey isn't a retard that's incompetent at everything despite having to raise herself on a lawless wasteland of a planet?  When we see things like Rey fighting off thugs that try to attack her, she makes a comment that she's flown ships before (and doesn't even fly that well, to begin with.)  But, because we didn't go whole scenes of exposition spoonfeeding us that Rey has these skills, she's a Mary Sue to you.  So, the concept that someone does something for a long time, their whole life, and can get good at it... you can't understand that?  I'll also remind you, that with the Force, it augments all abilities, and you don't need to train to use it.  Babies and children can use the Force easily because it comes naturally to them.  Rey just awakened to her powers later.  Also the constant comparisons to Luke.  Not everyone is the same or learns the same.  And Rey has heard about their Jedi and their feats and is open-minded, tries things and sees what sticks, etc.  So, don't talk to me about "ailments" when you can't perceive anything that's the slightest bit subtle.  We'll save the Kirito discussions for other threads.

Edited December 2, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

8 hours ago, EmpressAngel said:

I'm just gonna leave it at this. I'm a woman who watches Black Clover. I know other women who watch Nlack Clover. I do not know a single woman who would say they find the female characters in this show handled any better than in any other shounen. That really doesn't seem like anything worth praising.

But My Hero Academia is so much better.  Or Naruto, LOL.

One Piece, when given multiple chances to add more female crew members, just made the boat a bigger sausage fest.  I mean, I guess you can say a reindeer, skeleton, and cyborg aren't exactly "normal men," but they could just easily have been women.  Still miss Vivi.  There's not very many women with weird or ugly designs in the show like there are guys, either. I also hear the women are handled worse and worse as the series goes on.

Hunter x Hunter - no women of note to speak of.  It's too bad the blonde guy wasn't a girl.  He had a cute Tasha Yar look going on.

Naruto - Do I even have to say anything?

Now, Bleach, Fairy Tail, SAO, Black Clover, they all have strong, capable women who actually impact the plot.  Though with obvious weaknesses, like Orihime, but even she has done more than any of the women in My Hero Academia so far.

Edited December 2, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 11/29/2018 at 9:26 AM, Jman said:

It’s one of those shows that if you aren’t directly in front of it, you have no real feelings on it.

Not to mention this was what, 2009, 2011?  This was before pretty much EVERYTHING was On Demand.  I mean these days, Kekkaishi on say, Hulu, is something you scroll past to watch Goblin Slayer, not a good chunk of the only anime premiering on US TV that week not selling children’s card games.

Come to think of it, the reaction to Kekkaishi in a pre and post On Demand world is a rather fascinating microcosm of what choice does for the consumer and how it lets people ignore shows they otherwise would have to acknowledge.

I don't think that's always such a good thing.  There's plenty of shows I've stumbled upon on TV, that I probably wouldn't have watched had a I came across their title page and synopsis on a streaming service.  You're more likely to stick around watching something after you see a few minutes, than if you just look at the thumbnail/poster/card/whatever online and go "I'm not gonna watch that."  Linear traditional TV still has its place and its benefits, and it would be a shame if it does go fully extinct.

[ben0119]

Also I must have misread that post because I thought @Daos said that the art was as bad as a fan service show from 10 years ago.  Umm, the art in that screencap does look like shit, and the fan service isn't even good.  Those character designs do nothing for me.  About as appealing as Tenchi GXP's "art."

[ben0119]

12 hours ago, PokeNirvash said:

ITT: Ben is the most contrarian man on the planet.

Or, I just have a different opinion?  God-for-fucking-bid.

[PokeNirvash]

5 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

Or, I just have a different opinion?  God-for-fucking-bid.

That you do, and it's an opinion different from the majority. That's the definition of contrarian, and I meant no ill will by that.

[ben0119]

25 minutes ago, PokeNirvash said:

That you do, and it's an opinion different from the majority. That's the definition of contrarian, and I meant no ill will by that.

People often say that with the intent that someone is being contrarian for the sake of it.  But, fair enough, then.

Edited December 2, 2018 by ben0119

[Daos]

See in Ben's world Kirito and Rey aren't Mary Sues because some people are just perfect at things they've never done before on the first try. Natsu is totally aware when girls like him. Black Clover isn't poorly written because no one writes that poorly so it's obviously parody. And Freezing looks worse than Black Clover despite the fact that some BC frames look like they were drawn with MS Paint.

He might be a refugee from the Bizarro universe but I'm not sure.

[ben0119]

But... Rey and Kirito had their entire lives doing the things they are good at.  That's... generally how one gets good at things.  I think, you don't know what a Mary Sue really is. 

You said you only watched the first 4 episodes of Black Clover, so not sure what you can really say on this topic.  None of them look as bad as that Freezing screencap, and most have had great animation.

[Daos]

Like hacking into the most complex computer system in the world to save an AI in under 30 seconds while being trapped in a virtual world? Lolol. When asked who you thought was a Mary Sue you picked...  Alucard from Hellsing. Which means you don't understand what a Mary Sue is.

Again, due to your various ailments I know everything you say makes perfect sense to you, but you need to understand why everyone has such a "Wtf is he talking about" reaction to everything you say.

[ben0119]

Kirito has been hacking and playing with computers and videogames his whole life.  This was repeatedly established in the show that he was a shut-in gamer tech junkie nerd.  There are also child prodigies in the world like the kid who has a nuclear lab in his garage.

...And then I disqualified all of those examples, because they had explanations for their power, talent, and skill.  I set them up to knock them down, to prove the fallacy of the Mary Sue concept and how the term is so overused and abused.  So you obviously didn't actually listen to or understand what I said.  The only ones I can think of that truly fit the bill are Alice from the Resident Evil movies and the main character of Prince of Tennis.

I do sound "off" to people, sure.  It's obvious I'm not a "normal" personality.  But that doesn't mean I'm wrong, and you don't have to be such a jerk about it.

[EmpressAngel]

19 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

This was repeatedly established in the show that he was a shut-in gamer tech junkie nerd.

Wait, was he a shut-in gamer tech junkie nerd, or was he a skilled and talented kendo player before entering the game? Because I'm pretty sure both of those things take a lot of time and effort to get good at. Are there even enough hours in a week to split time between studying advanced computer programming, practicing martial arts, making significant progress in MMO games, and completing regular school work?

[Daos]

No i mean you sound off because what you type usually makes absolutely zero sense and comes off as the rantings of a lunatic. Other people are a lot less nice than I am, they get fed up and typically just call you retarded repeatedly from what I can see on the other boards.

But see, you didn't knock anything down. Only in your own mind did you knock them down. That's why I keep trying to explain to you that your sense of logic and reason is broken due to your condition. For some reason you don't seem to be able to accept this.

Hacking and playing video games your entire life does not give you the ability to hack the worlds most sophisticated computer system from the inside in the span of 30 seconds. 

Guess which moment Mother's Basement says cements SAO as the worst anime ever? Yup it's the hacking scene. Maybe he can try to explain it to ya?

 

[ben0119]

3 minutes ago, EmpressAngel said:

Wait, was he a shut-in gamer tech junkie nerd, or was he a skilled and talented kendo player before entering the game? Because I'm pretty sure both of those things take a lot of time and effort to get good at. Are there even enough hours in a week to split time between studying advanced computer programming, practicing martial arts, making significant progress in MMO games, and completing regular school work?

You obviously didn't pay attention to the show.  He sucks at kendo.  Remember his sparring session with Sugaha?  It's come up multiple times that Kirito is a wimpy nerd in real life and his skills in games don't help him there.  He even reaches for a sword out of habit that isn't there.  So yeah he sucks at actual fighting, and his swordfighting skills in the games don't translate to the real world, or vise versa, this has been shown repeatedly.  Not sure what you are on about here.

[Daos]

5 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

You obviously didn't pay attention to the show.  He sucks at kendo.  Remember his sparring session with Sugaha?  It's come up multiple times that Kirito is a wimpy nerd in real life and his skills in games don't help him there.  He even reaches for a sword out of habit that isn't there.  So yeah he sucks at actual fighting, and his swordfighting skills in the games don't translate to the real world, or vise versa, this has been shown repeatedly.  Not sure what you are on about here.

Except Ordinal Scale is real life and based on IRL physical abilities and he dominates that in like... 48 hours? And he somehow beats up a grown man even after getting knifed. Because he's exactly as strong as the plot needs him to be at any given moment. Because he's a Mary Sue. He gains whatever ability needed at any moment in order to advance the plot. If he needs to pick up a mountain and throw it he will somehow gain that ability.

They're literally beating it into your head that this a male power fantasy show with a self insert Mary Sue character the entire time.  Come on Ben, you can do this. I believe in you.

[naraku360]

49 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

Kirito has been hacking and playing with computers and videogames his whole life. 

I watched up to maybe an episode before the infamous hacking scene. There was no indication he knew fuck-all about hacking. Unless good at gaming means good at hacking, which it doesn't.

[ben0119]

6 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

I watched up to maybe an episode before the infamous hacking scene. There was no indication he knew fuck-all about hacking. Unless good at gaming means good at hacking, which it doesn't.

It was revealed he put computers together and did some programming.  Which people also made a big deal out of for no reason.  Hacking is a form of programming.

[Daos]

He could have spent every second of his life hacking computers and he still would not have had the ability to do what he did in that scene.

[ben0119]

58 minutes ago, Daos said:

No i mean you sound off because what you type usually makes absolutely zero sense and comes off as the rantings of a lunatic. Other people are a lot less nice than I am, they get fed up and typically just call you retarded repeatedly from what I can see on the other boards.

But see, you didn't knock anything down. Only in your own mind did you knock them down. That's why I keep trying to explain to you that your sense of logic and reason is broken due to your condition. For some reason you don't seem to be able to accept this.

Hacking and playing video games your entire life does not give you the ability to hack the worlds most sophisticated computer system from the inside in the span of 30 seconds. 

Guess which moment Mother's Basement says cements SAO as the worst anime ever? Yup it's the hacking scene. Maybe he can try to explain it to ya?

 

Well, I don't even really consider most of the users in Babbling actual people.  They've made fun of people because their parents were sick or had died.  They mock disabled people and tell people to kill themselves.  I meant, as far users who act like actual human beings, like the ones in the Toonami and Anime sections, you're being more of an asshole than you need to be.  Besides, I've dealt with Babblings' types all my life.  Theirs are no more than grade school level insults.  And that's not what many other people tell me.  Friends, family members, co-workers, even some mere acquaintances, people I barely know, people that have no reason to lie, have complimented on me on my intelligence and how I operate on a higher level than most people.  Of course, it's not uncommon for those of lesser intellect to believe they are in fact the intelligent one, and the intelligent person is the stupid one, or just plain be jealous that they don't do as well as them in school, aren't as smart, have a harder time acquiring skills, doing well at their job, etc.  I've dealt with these kinds of people all my life.  You could be any or all of these, and all it means is I misjudged you and was mistaken to hold you in as high regard as I did, because it seems you indeed do not understand me at all, and all it took was a few disagreements over Star wars and a few animes and "LOLOLOL YOU'RE A LUNATIC YOUR BRAIN DON'T WORK GOOD."  You obviously do not take disagreement or criticism well, if this is the behavior you resort to when confronted.  And somehow I'm not sure you would have said the same things if you didn't know about my conditions, either.  So yeah, you can call me whatever you want, it doesn't make it true, and it just means I file you in the same category as the rest who did the same thing.

So you aren't actually going to argue how I was wrong with any of those examples and will instead just criticize me for my disability.

I've seen a few videos by this guy.  Can't say I'm a fan.  And it's hard for me take him seriously when he says things like "everyone over the age of 12 knows SAO is bad."  But SAO is not universally hated.  It wouldn't have this degree of success if it was.  It's a polarizing show.  So hated yes, but also loved just as much.  

Don't remember the thing about Kirito and Asuna being the only ones to find happiness and love.  Either way, it's not true.  Other people seemed pretty content with their lives in SAO, this was shown in multiple episodes, like with the old fisherman.

It's definitely not true that Kirito doesn't have a defined personality.  He's kind and considerate, cares for the people around him.  And what's that you call it?  He's a character?  A little shit?  

Why does he assume turning off the no log out thing would be harder than just copying and pasting lines of code???  Hell I am sure Kayaba would have plenty of fail-safes and redundancies to prevent that exact thing from happening.  I doubt he gives too much of a shit if Yui breaks loose.  Propriety, new tech, yes, but it's still written with computer code.  From what we can tell it still works on that basic level.  That's like saying people "can't" write viruses for Macs, as Apple fanboys used to say.  No, hackers simply didn't give a shit about Macs so they didn't write viruses for them in near the numbers they did for PC.

If Kirito is a Mary Sue, then so is the protagonist of War Games, apparently, and that movie isn't believable either, according to you, and this guy.  But its ratings, which you are so fond of, say otherwise. =3

Edited December 2, 2018 by ben0119

[naraku360]

8 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

It was revealed he put computers together and did some programming.  Which people also made a big deal out of for no reason.  Hacking is a form of programming.

But that's not nearly enough to sell the concept of him breaching the coding in a device created by a supposed mega-genius capable of building a fully sentient AI with security defenses that have prevented any form of interference, internal or external for over 2 years. Like, that's not something it was able to sell in premise alone, and when you combine that with how advanced what he does with the speed he does it, I don't know how suspension of disbelief wouldn't be broken.

Feel free to enjoy it all you want, but don't bother trying to convince anyone it's more than a cheap copout. It undercuts what was meant to be an emotional scene and is narratively asinine. 

[ben0119]

49 minutes ago, Daos said:

Except Ordinal Scale is real life and based on IRL physical abilities and he dominates that in like... 48 hours? And he somehow beats up a grown man even after getting knifed. Because he's exactly as strong as the plot needs him to be at any given moment. Because he's a Mary Sue. He gains whatever ability needed at any moment in order to advance the plot. If he needs to pick up a mountain and throw it he will somehow gain that ability.

They're literally beating it into your head that this a male power fantasy show with a self insert Mary Sue character the entire time.  Come on Ben, you can do this. I believe in you.

I haven't seen Ordinal Scale yet.  Is it even canon?  I know Reki wrote the story for it, but that doesn't mean anything.  And didn't you say a week before?  Can't even get your story straight.  Ignoring Ordinal Scale, he was able to beat that guy up due to adrenaline and survival instinct, plus Oberon was fucked up by what Kirito did to him in the game, turning the pain sensors all the way up on him.  In any case, we've seen multiple occasions where Kirito was over-powered in real life fights, and in-game, as well.  To say that Kirito "never loses" is a lie.

James Bond is a male power fantasy, too.  Is he a Mary Sue?  And what's so wrong with that anyway?  Are we not allowed to have male power fantasies anymore?  And either way, I don't care.  I enjoy the story and characters for what they are.  Yes, Aincrad Arc has flaws with the wonky time skips, issues with pacing and character development because of this.  Reki knew it had problems which is why he remade it.  And I thought you said you liked SAO?

Edited December 2, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

3 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

But that's not nearly enough to sell the concept of him breaching the coding in a device created by a supposed mega-genius capable of building a fully sentient AI with security defenses that have prevented any form of interference, internal or external for over 2 years. Like, that's not something it was able to sell in premise alone, and when you combine that with how advanced what he does with the speed he does it, I don't know how suspension of disbelief wouldn't be broken.

Feel free to enjoy it all you want, but don't bother trying to convince anyone it's more than a cheap copout. It undercuts what was meant to be an emotional scene and is narratively asinine. 

I thought no one was able to do anything because if they did, Kayaba would fry the brains of the players.  Remember, he said if anyone tried to remove the devices, the signal would be automatically sent and kill that person.  I can't remember if it was ever said if anyone tried to hack into SAO, but I had assumed it was isolated from the rest of the internet and its own thing, and thus not physically hackable.  At least, something to that effect.

So, basically you are saying the protagonist of War Games is a Mary Sue and that movie violates suspension of disbelief?

I dunno I loved Yui so I was glad she didn't die.  Obviously not everyone agrees with me there lol.

[naraku360]

1 hour ago, ben0119 said:

but I had assumed it was isolated from the rest of the internet and its own thing, and thus not physically hackable.

That doesn't make much sense. People hack proprietary systems all the time. Video game consoles being a big examples. Most get hacked within a couple months of release. To last 2 years without anyone figuring out how to breach security would mean the security is obscenely good. I'm pretty sure they only mentioned physical removal of the helmets and didn't say much about getting hacked. The simple fact of the matter is people would flock to save thousands of people trapped in a murderous virtual reality and if it took 2 years to figure out, how can we believe Kirito got in and messed around within seconds when there have to be countless people trying to do the same for years?

And even if it's that Kirito was the only person who tried, it'd be impossible to logically buy into. It's bad writing that just doesn't consider much if it doesn't make Kirito look good.

If I really care about a character who's about to die, I'd rather they die than be saved by a pure contrivance that nullifies much point of having the scene. If they survive I want it to be earned in some way. Most characters who reach a natural conclusion through a "death" scene but get magically saved tend to stagnate right after.

Edited December 2, 2018 by naraku360

[ben0119]

10 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

That doesn't make much sense. People hack proprietary systems all the time. Video game consoles being a big examples. Most get hacked within a couple months of release. To last 2 years without anyone figuring out how to breach security would mean the security is obscenely good. I'm pretty sure they only mentioned physical removal of the helmets and didn't say much about getting hacked. The simple fact of the matter is people would flock to save thousands of people trapped in a murderous virtual reality and if it took 2 years to figure out, how can we believe Kirito got in and messed around within seconds when there have to be countless people trying to do the same for years?

And even if it's that Kirito was the only person who tried, it'd be impossible to logically buy into. It's bad writing that just doesn't consider much if it doesn't make Kirito look good.

But if SAO is self-contained, and if the only way to hack into it is to have access to Kayaba's lab, or be in the game, how is anyone supposed to hack into it?

Kirito had access to that special console.  I believe it was like an admin thing or something?  So all he had to do was look up Yui and copy and paste her lines of code.  There have been plenty of times where Kirito hasn't looked good, though.  Like failing to save Sachi or her guild, hording knowledge, and hiding abilities etc.  Plenty of people he could have saved or helped had he not been so anti-social.  Asuna got into him for not being a good member of the team at times, as well.  Slacking off, etc.

Edited December 2, 2018 by ben0119

[Daos]

I don't hate it, it's a watchable anime. I just don't harbor any illusions about Kirito not being a Mary Sue self insert character. 48 hours.. a week... who knows? I doubt it's even stated in the movie. The point is he becomes the top player in a short time frame. And yes it's Canon. Keep my story straight? Ok officer.

Is the guy in War Games good at everything while having a harem? Or is he just good at one thing?

"Of course, it's not uncommon for those of lesser intellect to believe they are in fact the intelligent one, and the intelligent person is the stupid one"

You should give that statement a lot of thought.

If you want Yui to not die, how about just not having her die? Why go with the OH NO IM DYING jk Kirito saved me with 30 seconds of hacking whew what an emotional roller coaster.

James Bond? The guy who does stuff like this on a daily basis? Uh... yes? Yes he is. He has a wide array of very unrealistic abilities that no spy in the real world would actually possess, while getting away with constantly telling everyone his real name.

 

[naraku360]

13 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

But if SAO is self-contained, and if the only way to hack into it is to have access to Kayaba's lab, or be in the game, how is anyone supposed to hack into it?

Kirito had access to that special console.  I believe it was like an admin thing or something?  So all he had to do was look up Yui and copy and paste her lines of code.  There have been plenty of times where Kirito hasn't looked good, though.  Like failing to save Sachi or her guild, hording knowledge, and hiding abilities etc.  Plenty of people he could have saved or helped had he not been so anti-social.  Asuna got into him for not being a good member of the team at times, as well.  Slacking off, etc.

Bruh.... they had access to the devices. Hackers don't...

Dude.

They don't use the software as installed or intended. Hacking is, you know, literally breaking into the software. So no, they wouldn't have to play the game to get to the special console.

And if Kirito has a normal consumer console, and his can gain access to the special console, then any device can get there.

[ben0119]

1 hour ago, Daos said:

I don't hate it, it's a watchable anime. I just don't harbor any illusions about Kirito not being a Mary Sue self insert character. 48 hours.. a week... who knows? I doubt it's even stated in the movie. The point is he becomes the top player in a short time frame. And yes it's Canon. Keep my story straight? Ok officer.

Is the guy in War Games good at everything while having a harem? Or is he just good at one thing?

"Of course, it's not uncommon for those of lesser intellect to believe they are in fact the intelligent one, and the intelligent person is the stupid one"

You should give that statement a lot of thought.

If you want Yui to not die, how about just not having her die? Why go with the OH NO IM DYING jk Kirito saved me with 30 seconds of hacking whew what an emotional roller coaster.

James Bond? The guy who does stuff like this on a daily basis? Uh... yes? Yes he is. He has a wide array of very unrealistic abilities that no spy in the real world would actually possess, while getting away with constantly telling everyone his real name.

 

Fair enough.  I don't see it that way, because I've got many things I am good at myself, I'm an artistic, talented person, with many hobbies and interests, and I know others like me.  I think people don't take it well when they come across characters that are better than them at things, especially multiple things, because it makes them feel inferior.  They might see it as "unrealistic" because they could never do these things, but real life proves them wrong.  The real world is full of "Mary Sues."  Well, it is referenced in Alicization, but seems every obviously dropped in there, forced and after the fact.  The canonicity of Ordinal Scale is debatable.  But I'd have to actually sit down and watch it and look into it more to be sure.

He is good at that one thing, and also has a girlfriend, or gets one by the end of the movie, if I recall correctly.  According to you guys, anyone who does this is a Mary Sue.  Believe it or not, the whole stereotype of nerdy gamer guys can't get girls... it most definitely isn't true judging by lots of people, including my buddy Espiga.  The women fall into his lap and he was once an admitted manwhore, not sure if he still is now.  I believe he's settled down somewhat at this point.  He also speaks Japanese and Korean fluently and did graphic design work for a trading card game company, and now a marketing company, in addition to making his own little games here and there, writing game reviews, and doing Twitch streams.  Guess my friend is a Mary Sue luuuuuuuuul.  Remember, you can't be good at more than one thing and be able to attract the opposite sex, or you're a Mary Sue!  You guys' logic!

I thought you might say that.  Very predictable.  Again, you are free to believe that to be the case, but that doesn't make it true.  As I've said, I've dealt with this all my life.  I can separate the people who understand me from the ones who don't, and you clearly don't understand me.  It's unfortunate, but it wouldn't be the first time.  I try not to let myself get disappointed anymore by not having such high expectations of people anymore.

I'm talking about me, as in the audience.  We didn't want Yui to die.  And yeah she got put into that doodad but that was no guarantee she comes back.  She doesn't even come back til the next arc!  I mean I dunno I didn't have any issue with it.  Believe it or not, not everyone gets set off by the same things.

Well he has his whole life to practice that.  It's all Bond does.  Also, there's a theory that James Bond itself is a code name, which explains the different Bonds.  It's either that or Bond gets plastic surgery and vocal chord surgery, and MI6 has somehow made him immortal or at least eternally youthful.  But then in the Daniel Craig movies they say he's a dinosaur from the Cold War Era?  So maybe it's just we are supposed to ignore the recasts and take Bond as the same person, even though the different Bonds act different...  I think... we just really aren't supposed to think about it that much. 

But, I hope you realize, just saying someone is a Mary Sue... doesn't actually mean anything or prove anything in and of itself.  It's not some damning indictment that "proves" something is bad.

Edited December 2, 2018 by ben0119