Little help here...

[André Toulon]

So, I put myself to sleep several ways..My favorites imagining my death and pondering stupid questions I'm not equipped to answer.  Last night I chose the latter.  

I never quite reach any kind of conclusion with these but I rarely still think about it when i wake up.....So here we are.

 

So, why would a person who believes in karma believe in religion (I guess specifically Christianity and the ilk).  Now understand, this is a real question....I'm not here to bash either.  I just don't see how they can co-exist, yet so many people I i know seem to subscribe to both notions.

So....Karma is basically a tit for tat....It punishes you for evil shit you've done...whether its swift or sluggish, it WILL get you.  No escape...Right?

Religion is pretty much you do good here and you earn eternal life in heaven, but if you do bad, you're condemned to hell...That's the premise if I'm not leaving anything out. (besides you can be forgiven, but lets put a pin in that for now)

Now, let's say I push an old lady down the stairs, and karma, in retribution, causes me to have an accident and I lose an eye.  My debt is paid, right.....So in the eyes of God, I should still be eligible for heaven....Or does god and karma operate independently, because I feel that's a game changer that Karma comes and collects and then god gets his when you die.  It's seems almost masochistic to actively believe both of these things yet people do.

Now, that forgiveness thing....As far as I've been told, you can give your soul to the lord on your death bed and he'll still count it as a life time of servitude....Does Karma not have a similar plan....Like if I push the lady down the stairs, but I'm truly remorseful, will it leave me be, or are all sales final.

 

TLDR: just click that back button, this is stupid.

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by André Toulon

[Insipid]

I thought about this too and I do think belief in karma is stronger than belief in religion. You can be a shitty person and find salvation in Jesus or whatever the fuck but that doesn't change the fact that no one is coming to your funeral.

[PenguinBoss]

Anyone who believe in true Karma isn't a Christian. In Buddhism/Hinduism, Karma is essentially your actions in life, good and bad, that determine what you reincarnate as. You do not see results in this life, and Christians obviously don't believe in reincarnation, so those are clearly at ends with each other. I'm not really knowledgeable past that, so I'm unsure if remorse plays a factor in proper Karma, and if it does if it's complete forgiveness.

If you mean the general "If you do good, good will come to you" type, it's not really that different from believing you'll be rewarded by being granted access to Heaven after you die, is it? It's just that the person is being rewarded for their good deeds while still alive. That's my take on it, anyway. I've never believed that a genuinely good person won't go to Heaven just because they don't believe in Jesus.

In my personal belief, the karma you're talking about, is tit for tat like you said. There is no benevolence or maliciousness in its action, and as such it doesn't matter if you are remorseful or not.

[1pooh4u]

Idk I always thought karma was like cosmic currency where you earn based off what you put out there. That would be incompatible with Christianity where in some forms of it you can be as big a scumbag as you want. Just tell Jesus you’re sorry and all is forgiven whereas karma you will pay eventually 

[Icarus27k]

I would have to spend years traveling Southern Asian and meditating to come up with a precise definition of "karma" that I would be comfortable with. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Icarus27k

[naraku360]

6 hours ago, PenguinBoss said:

Anyone who believe in true Karma isn't a Christian. In Buddhism/Hinduism, Karma is essentially your actions in life, good and bad, that determine what you reincarnate as. You do not see results in this life, and Christians obviously don't believe in reincarnation, so those are clearly at ends with each other. I'm not really knowledgeable past that, so I'm unsure if remorse plays a factor in proper Karma, and if it does if it's complete forgiveness.

If you mean the general "If you do good, good will come to you" type, it's not really that different from believing you'll be rewarded by being granted access to Heaven after you die, is it? It's just that the person is being rewarded for their good deeds while still alive. That's my take on it, anyway. I've never believed that a genuinely good person won't go to Heaven just because they don't believe in Jesus.

In my personal belief, the karma you're talking about, is tit for tat like you said. There is no benevolence or maliciousness in its action, and as such it doesn't matter if you are remorseful or not.

However, both Christianity and karma do result in a positive/negative eternal after death "result" so to speak. Reincarnation is technically less eternal insofar as things to reincarnate into exist, but in theory both reincarnation and the afterlife are supposed to be eternal.

Personally, I think the values if Christianity are in more conflict with the values of Christianity than they are with karma. Karma has, like, consistency.

[Lynnrael]

the answer is that Americans like to appropriate things regardless of whether or not it makes sense either in the context of their own beliefs or in the traditional context of whatever it is they're appropriating

my very basic and limited understanding of karma was that it is more about trying to not to create more suffering in the world than anything to do with punishment vs reward, but idk fuck about shit so i could be very wrong.

[scoobdog]

34 minutes ago, Lynnrael said:

the answer is that Americans like to appropriate things regardless of whether or not it makes sense either in the context of their own beliefs or in the traditional context of whatever it is they're appropriating

my very basic and limited understanding of karma was that it is more about trying to not to create more suffering in the world than anything to do with punishment vs reward, but idk fuck about shit so i could be very wrong.

That’s a human thing, not just American.  And, you’re right:  karma is about not creating suffering in the sense of having attachment to one’s own existence, which does have analogs to other religions.  Arguably, the point of separation between Buddhism and Christianity would be how the final destination is loosely defined.  In both, the simplified ultimate goal is to completely divest yourself of your identity; you either become the perfect extension of God or become one with the undefined expanse of nothingness.  Even the idea of reincarnation is intrinsic to Christian faith even if doesn’t reveal itself in the same explicit way.  It’s understood that one does not simply end up in heaven;  even one who leads a saintly life is usually unfit for heaven and has to be “reincarnated” in purgatory.  Rather than reflecting some kind of shared value, it’s more likely that the true founders of Christianity were aware of the Buddhist faith through Rome as a major nexus point and incorporated elements of the much older faith.  Nonetheless and to Buddy’s first question:  someone who believes in Christianity should theoretically be adhering to the basic principles of karma already.

To be clear:  karma isn’t social currency in the sense one can use it to earn enlightenment.  It’s a process one undergoes to achieve enlightenment, not a device to earn enlightenment with.

[SwimOdin]

Just to respond to the first query, I can see from a cultural standpoint the marriage of believing in karma and  Christianity. Simply, it’s the martyrdom. There’s an inherent denial of earthly pleasures that is worn like a Medal of Honor, and a belief in that while denying things on Earth, they will be rewarded forever in Heaven. A karmic balance paid forward.

i hit a dab pen of that wasn’t obvious 

[scoobdog]

Karma has a secular and religious meaning.  We can establish that the Buddhist karma is not contradictory to Christianity, but what about the secular meaning?

At face value,  the idea that one can believe that the Christian God will forgive any and all sins with one act of sincere contrition would subvert a karmic system that rewards good behavior.  However,  karma as is defined colloquially doesn’t extend into the afterlife.  It’s mostly transactional - each consequence is tied directly to a behavior - and it exists as a way to frame morality socially across multiple faith systems ( which are individual).   When God is offering forgiveness, it’s exclusively postmortem and unique to that person’s journey through the afterlife.

It points to a need for regulating communal morality, in a space where one’s deeply held and personal values are expected to support an atheistic social order.

[Lynnrael]

12 hours ago, scoobdog said:

Karma has a secular and religious meaning.  We can establish that the Buddhist karma is not contradictory to Christianity, but what about the secular meaning?

At face value,  the idea that one can believe that the Christian God will forgive any and all sins with one act of sincere contrition would subvert a karmic system that rewards good behavior.  However,  karma as is defined colloquially doesn’t extend into the afterlife.  It’s mostly transactional - each consequence is tied directly to a behavior - and it exists as a way to frame morality socially across multiple faith systems ( which are individual).   When God is offering forgiveness, it’s exclusively postmortem and unique to that person’s journey through the afterlife.

It points to a need for regulating communal morality, in a space where one’s deeply held and personal values are expected to support an atheistic social order.

how do you think this compares to prosperity gospel? just curious about your thoughts on the topic

[lupin_bebop]

.......Those must've been some REALLY damn good gummies.

[scoobdog]

55 minutes ago, Lynnrael said:

how do you think this compares to prosperity gospel? just curious about your thoughts on the topic

Prosperity gospel is heretical in just about any sense of the word.

Historically,  Roman Catholicism has been used to propogate atrocities on the poor and adherents of other faiths with unflinching regularity, and always with a strict delineation between what was man’s domain and what was God’s.  This level of hypocrisy is how a shadow nobility was able to maintain secular power while professing to be poor themselves:  God doesn’t have any want or need for wealth but His acolytes need that wealth to support their ministry.

Prosperity gospel preached by Joel Osteen and his ilk contradicts itself in an important way by openly suggesting that God is willing to buy the loyalty of his faithful.  The connection is tenuous; they’ll often argue that God isn’t granting people this money as much as unlocking their potential to achieve success.  Presumably this means a successful person is obligated to return the rewards to God through his church.  However, that is never explicitly defined and, even if it were, it doesn’t resolve underlying paradox between wealth defined in rescources and defined in spirit.

[PhilosipherStoned]

On 12/3/2023 at 3:40 PM, lupin_bebop said:

.......Those must've been some REALLY damn good gummies.

 one of my managers buys a big ass can of the most potent shit.....and he decided to test me one time because I said my tolerence was golden... I don't know he punked a lot of potheads out...but in the the end he gave me like 3 or 4 when most people where tripping balls after like a half of one...

Just trying to say I don't remember if it was gummie 3 or 4 but holy fucking shit...I was really struggling to get trash bags into the fucking can and I was up in the restroom like damn...I'm fucked. No customers plz.

Edited December 9, 2023 by PhilosipherStoned
never again

[lupin_bebop]

@PhilosipherStoned That sounds like a normal Thursday for some people.

[PhilosipherStoned]

On 12/10/2023 at 1:35 PM, lupin_bebop said:

@PhilosipherStoned That sounds like a normal Thursday for some people.

It is I know. For me it still wasn't like I was trippin' balls but when you have all your management staring you down with koolaid smiles and you don't normally do gummies that shit can be pretty trippy.. I was like "What man why the fuck you keep staring at me." IN FRONT OF CUSTOMERS. 

My tolerance should be trash now. I basically only smoke or use thc when offered these days, but apparently that dudes gummies had people crashing out in the back not wanting to move or some shit... 

[André Toulon]

Gummies make you paranoid af if you're not used to them.  I remember I took one after not having them for a while and i was at the dentist.  

It was the wierdest dentist trip ever....Like i really think I heard them admit to malpractice and and I heard the lady next door go "oops" while she was doing something to that lady while she was out....Normally, it probably wouldn't have triggered me but I was sitting there like "What happened "

[André Toulon]

Ok so while I don't yet identify as an atheist, why do people need SOMETHING to cling to. 

This new wave of "spirituality", that seems to be all encompassing at this point, is more ridiculous than textbook religion to me, but it's such a big deal now. 

The moon, and transferred energy, and channeling the ancestors, and giving the thanks to nontangible sources....it's just so weird to me.

Are we so indoctrinated into believing we aren't self sufficient that we can't even recognize our own hard work. 

I hate just being awake and pondering shit like this when in the back of my head all I can think is "this is all bullshit"

[scoobdog]

5 hours ago, André Toulon said:

Ok so while I don't yet identify as an atheist, why do people need SOMETHING to cling to. 

This new wave of "spirituality", that seems to be all encompassing at this point, is more ridiculous than textbook religion to me, but it's such a big deal now. 

The moon, and transferred energy, and channeling the ancestors, and giving the thanks to nontangible sources....it's just so weird to me.

Are we so indoctrinated into believing we aren't self sufficient that we can't even recognize our own hard work [?]

Rhetorical prompt answer:

Most people who cling to religion in that way do so because that's the easiest way to give meaning to one's life.  Since I've stopped going to weekly masses, I've had time to process the years of repetitive scripture readings to give it some sense:  the one thing that both stands out and is generally ignored in sermons is the concept of God as a detached representation of community.  Spirituality is part of the contradictory tradition of asceticism; it depersonalizes both the individual and the focus of prayer, and it has a long tradition in just about every religious faith system there is.  It's also become more popular as many of the established churches fight off fundamentalism and extreme conservatism, but it's also been abused by people who exploit those who flock to spiritualism because they are disaffected.

Honest answer:

I think it's ridiculous too, but it seems that the people most likely to be spiritual are the ones that have little to no connection with the people around them.  Being self sufficient doesn't mean being isolated, it means not needing other people to "carry your load."  Equilibrium between ability to take care of one's own needs and having access to resources is difficult for a lot of people.  Many are damaged and limited in their ability to reach their potential.  Others lack access to those resources.  Still others are simply lost without any way of gauging that potential.  Spirituality can fill the gap for all of them without actually fixing the underlying issue.