Toonami General Discussion Thread

[OwlChemist81]

He's in center stage in the current Manga arc though. So this leads to an interesting possibility for Toonami viewers: read the manga for the continued adventures of Kurapika, while watching Toonami for the continued adventures of Gon and Killua? I guess it depends on whether or not the current manga chapters would spoil anything from the next 90 episodes. If you're new to Hunter x Hunter (like me) and enjoyed the Yorknew arc, I'd at least look into it.

[naraku360]

He's in center stage in the current Manga arc though. So this leads to an interesting possibility for Toonami viewers: read the manga for the continued adventures of Kurapika, while watching Toonami for the continued adventures of Gon and Killua? I guess it depends on whether or not the current manga chapters would spoil anything from the next 90 episodes. If you're new to Hunter x Hunter (like me) and enjoyed the Yorknew arc, I'd at least look into it.

It has very significant spoilers. Kurapika might not be in it, but the arc after Greed Island [Chimera Ant] is a common fan favorite and with good reason. Current arc would definitely spoil major parts of that.

 

That aside, current arc is shaping up to be a Kurapika-focused Chimera Ant.

[OwlChemist81]

It has very significant spoilers. Kurapika might not be in it, but the arc after Greed Island [Chimera Ant] is a common fan favorite and with good reason. Current arc would definitely spoil major parts of that.

 

That aside, current arc is shaping up to be a Kurapika-focused Chimera Ant.

 

Ok, then, I guess I'll just wait until 2019! ONWARD TO GREED ISLAND!

 

[Jman]

Twitter seems proof Toonami is not the be-all/end-all of popularity.  There are a ton of Brazilian and Spanish tweets about certain episodes, particularly Eren fighting the Armored Titan with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

[ben0119]

The Yorknew arc with him as the MC was actually pretty good. It turned into a watchable anime.  But now it's back to Gon and Kilua I hear.

 

Too little, too late.  It took what, 40-something episodes to "get good?"  It reminds me of applecountry who always used to tell us JUST WAIT TIL EPISODE 75 WHEN SHIPPUDEN GETS AWESOME! And the fact one of the supposed main characters of the series disappears for a hundred episodes is hilariously bad.

[CaptainStarwind]

Too little, too late.  It took what, 40-something episodes to "get good?"  It reminds me of applecountry who always used to tell us JUST WAIT TIL EPISODE 75 WHEN SHIPPUDEN GETS AWESOME! And the fact one of the supposed main characters of the series disappears for a hundred episodes is hilariously bad.

 

Oh come on.  You have to have better criticism for HxH than that.

[Daos]

Too little, too late.  It took what, 40-something episodes to "get good?"  It reminds me of applecountry who always used to tell us JUST WAIT TIL EPISODE 75 WHEN SHIPPUDEN GETS AWESOME! And the fact one of the supposed main characters of the series disappears for a hundred episodes is hilariously bad.

 

Don't get me wrong, those first 30 something episodes were complete crap and I still wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

 

But Yorknew fixed a lot of the  problems I had with the show. The issue of death being treated as trivial was fixed. The constant training/testing stopped. And Gon/Killua were replaced by a way better MC.

 

Even during Yorknew it still does baffling things though, like it builds up momentum and then has Gon and Killua go antiquing for an entire episode. Not joking.

[The1gairon]

Feeling like a kid's shonen =/= complete crap.  It's just that for a while it didn't feel like Toonami needed ANOTHER long-running shonen. I had followed an anime blog that covered the later episodes though, and I knew it did get better, so I hoped the viewers would keep tuning in by then.

[Top Gun]

Oh come on.  You have to have better criticism for HxH than that.

The pathetic thing is that he really doesn't.

 

I will say that the 1999 anime adaptation covered the Hunter Exam much better in my opinion, but this version really nailed Yorknew, and I'm looking forward to seeing the future stuff that I haven't experienced before.

[naraku360]

The pathetic thing is that he really doesn't.

 

I will say that the 1999 anime adaptation covered the Hunter Exam much better in my opinion, but this version really nailed Yorknew, and I'm looking forward to seeing the future stuff that I haven't experienced before.

After sitting on it, almost all the material covered by both versions is in my opinion better in '99. Even Yorknew in a lot of places I prefer '99, but they're both great adaptions of that arc. Only place I might say 2011 did better with the same material is Greed Island and some aspects of Heaven's Arena, but not even in entirety.

 

On the other hand, Chimera Ant is fantastic and takes up nearly the entire second half of the show.

[naraku360]

Oh come on.  You have to have better criticism for HxH than that.

I don't think he understands that shows can have shifting protagonists. It'd be hilarious if he weren't so depressingly incompetent.

[Top Gun]

After sitting on it, almost all the material covered by both versions is in my opinion better in '99. Even Yorknew in a lot of places I prefer '99, but they're both great adaptions of that arc. Only place I might say 2011 did better with the same material is Greed Island and some aspects of Heaven's Arena, but not even in entirety.

 

On the other hand, Chimera Ant is fantastic and takes up nearly the entire second half of the show.

It's been years since I've seen the '99 version, but oddly enough I remember the Hunter Exam in it more clearly than Yorknew;  I do at least remember really liking the latter in that version.  I never watched its OVAs' take on Greed Island, since someone at the time said it wasn't a great adaptation, but I'm toying with going back and watching it after Toonami gets through the arc to see how it compares.  And yeah, I've heard really great stuff about Chimera Ant.

[naraku360]

It's been years since I've seen the '99 version, but oddly enough I remember the Hunter Exam in it more clearly than Yorknew;  I do at least remember really liking the latter in that version.  I never watched its OVAs' take on Greed Island, since someone at the time said it wasn't a great adaptation, but I'm toying with going back and watching it after Toonami gets through the arc to see how it compares.  And yeah, I've heard really great stuff about Chimera Ant.

To be fair, '99 abruptly cuts off at the last 3rd of Yorknew, so to finish the arc at all you have to track down a set of OVAs that are likely to have wildly different translation, and I believe '99 was licensed at some point but the conclusive Yorknew OVAs were not. So unless you sought out a separate fansub of the first OVAs, there may be a chance you didn't even see the whole arc.

 

Either way, the first OVAs which finishes Yorknew is pretty great. Yorknew in general is for whichever version.

 

I dunno, Greed Island OVAs aren't terrible or anything, they're probably the worst part of '99 though. Especially during the first batch they feel like the production value plummeted and an unfinished/unpolished product was released. It gets better as it goes, but those OVAs are kinda hard to judge.

[Top Gun]

No, I was watching with a group of people from the boards, and we definitely watched the Yorknew OVA after the series proper.  I remembered the ending of the arc really clearly, but not some of the earlier details for whatever reason.

[EmpressAngel]

And the fact one of the supposed main characters of the series disappears for a hundred episodes is hilariously bad.

Remember how Kubo would forget about Ichigo for like, a solid year? Good times.

[CaptainStarwind]

Remember how Kubo would forget about Ichigo for like, a solid year? Good times.

 

Bleach is different because Ben likes that show.

[viperxmns]

I think Preflight streaming live on FB/as from SDCC in an hour or so

[naraku360]

No, I was watching with a group of people from the boards, and we definitely watched the Yorknew OVA after the series proper.  I remembered the ending of the arc really clearly, but not some of the earlier details for whatever reason.

That's good. Those OVAs would've been a pain to find if I didn't already know where to look.

[Blatch]

I don't know why this thread hasn't been active, but the SDCC panel is almost done and there are some news to report:

• The new TIE is... basically Intruder 4, but they're calling it Countdown. Coming this fall, in probably four or five chapters.
  
• There was actually another major announcement they wanted to do, but outside circumstances delayed it. Maybe it was about a future show.
  
• Aside from teasing Stardust Crusaders again, they aired the first episode for everyone to see, and it's actually on the stream this time. It should still be in its original airing as this gets posted, so head over there soon if you'd like to watch it!
  

And they showed the FLCL trailer and played games. Overall, not a total waste. ::]::

[viperxmns]

They aired the first Stardust Crusaders ep on the stream

[MasqueradeOverture]

I think it's safe to say the test dub have gone unchanged (unless I missed something and someone wants to correct me).

[The1gairon]

Toonami live-streamed their panel at SDCC a short time ago, and so far not a whole lot of ground-breaking news was revealed.  The Total Immersion Event in 2018 will be called Countdown. They also showed the full 1st episode of Stardust Crusaders!

[ben0119]

Feeling like a kid's shonen =/= complete crap.  It's just that for a while it didn't feel like Toonami needed ANOTHER long-running shonen. I had followed an anime blog that covered the later episodes though, and I knew it did get better, so I hoped the viewers would keep tuning in by then.

 

In the 30-something episodes Hiatus was treading water waiting to "get good," someone could have watched Cowboy Bebop and FLCL.  Think about that.  It's inexcusable.  Oh, I heard over and over how HxH was a "slow burn" and "totally gets good later we promise!"  Well, I watched for a good long while, putting up with the show when lots of people would've dropped it, and not only did it not get better, it managed to make me not care about any of the characters anymore, the few that I did like a bit, at least.  The episodes of Gon and Killua chopping people in the back were the last straw for me.  I don't think I've ever seen a show more dull and tedious.

[ben0119]

Oh come on.  You have to have better criticism for HxH than that.

 

I've leveled plenty of other criticisms against Hiatus.  Don't act like you haven't seen them.  And I don't think what I've just said isn't damning, either.  But, even if it didn't drop supposed main characters for hundred plus episodes, the show is just too good at generating viewer apathy.

[ben0119]

Don't get me wrong, those first 30 something episodes were complete crap and I still wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

 

But Yorknew fixed a lot of the  problems I had with the show. The issue of death being treated as trivial was fixed. The constant training/testing stopped. And Gon/Killua were replaced by a way better MC.

 

Even during Yorknew it still does baffling things though, like it builds up momentum and then has Gon and Killua go antiquing for an entire episode. Not joking.

 

Good to hear.  I'm still done with the show, though.  Way too frustrated and exasperated with it.  As I've said before, it's telling that this show managed to force me to break my years-long self-imposed completionist rule.

 

Hahahahaha oh god.  It's like the episode where they went hunting for a retro console.  >

[ben0119]

After sitting on it, almost all the material covered by both versions is in my opinion better in '99. Even Yorknew in a lot of places I prefer '99, but they're both great adaptions of that arc. Only place I might say 2011 did better with the same material is Greed Island and some aspects of Heaven's Arena, but not even in entirety.

 

On the other hand, Chimera Ant is fantastic and takes up nearly the entire second half of the show.

 

That's not what all the fanboys said.  The people that were up-selling this show and telling everyone to "keep watching it gets better" said this was the definitive version and the superior to 99 version in practically every way.

[The1gairon]

Oh, I heard over and over how HxH was a "slow burn" and "totally gets good later we promise!"  Well, I watched for a good long while, putting up with the show when lots of people would've dropped it, and not only did it not get better, it managed to make me not care about any of the characters anymore, the few that I did like a bit, at least.

 

K that's a fair point.

[ben0119]

I don't think he understands that shows can have shifting protagonists. It'd be hilarious if he weren't so depressingly incompetent.

 

It's basically like if you had spin-offs all in one show, with casts taking turns.  It's not a very conventional or appreciated way to tell a story.  And it's a bit of a problem when characters are annoying and/or you don't give a shit about them.  Nobody wants to be watching The Next Generation and then all of a sudden it's like NOPE TIME TO WATCH ENTERPRISE NOW.

[ben0119]

Remember how Kubo would forget about Ichigo for like, a solid year? Good times.

 

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. And you can't have epic character returns and reveals of new abilities, etc if they aren't out of the picture for a while.  Besides, those other characters are actually good, interesting and entertaining to watch.  Going from Kurapika to Gon and Killua feels like punishment.

[Top Gun]

The fact that you continue to defend Kubo's "writing" renders any and all criticisms you level at other shows completely invalid.

[EmpressAngel]

Besides, those other characters are actually good, interesting and entertaining to watch.

You just keep telling yourself that.

 

I'm just gonna leave this here.

[ben0119]

The fact that you continue to defend Kubo's "writing" renders any and all criticisms you level at other shows completely invalid.

 

What makes a good story and good writing is subjective.  I could say the same to you calling that trainwreck Unicorn "fantastic."  For whatever you want to say against Kubo, Bleach is at least enjoyable.  Entertaining, interesting, engaging.  Hiatus is just a big ball of nothing.  In fact, when Kishimoto, heh, "adapted" his material from it, he made it actually entertaining! :-D I'll take  Naruto before the time skip over Hiatus any day.

[ben0119]

You just keep telling yourself that.

 

I'm just gonna leave this here.

 

They are.  Why do you think readers through a fit and gave the Fullbring Arc low marks?  Because Kubo took the Soul Reapers out of the picture to focus on the original "main cast."  I like them, but the sad fact remains that people ended up liking the Soul Reapers more than the main cast.  Yes, I know Rukia and Renji are Soul Reapers, but you know what I'm talking about.

 

You know I quit watching Hiatus months ago, right?

[Top Gun]

What makes a good story and good writing is subjective.  I could say the same to you calling that trainwreck Unicorn "fantastic."  For whatever you want to say against Kubo, Bleach is at least enjoyable.  Entertaining, interesting, engaging.  Hiatus is just a big ball of nothing.  In fact, when Kishimoto, heh, "adapted" his material from it, he made it actually entertaining! :-D I'll take  Naruto before the time skip over Hiatus any day.

One's enjoyment of a particular work is subjective, but there is most definitely such a thing as objectively good or bad writing.  Saying otherwise is frankly an insult to those who are skilled at the craft.  Humans have been telling stories to each other for literally tens of thousands of years, and we collectively have a  good grasp on what works and what doesn't.  We can recognize what makes a character compelling, what constitutes a feasible plot twist, or what sort of dialog flows naturally.  Just because you yourself can't make those distinctions about a particular work doesn't mean that others can't.

 

There's no shame at all by being entertained by a work that isn't particularly good.  But conflating your own enjoyment of a work with the measure of its quality, and then holding that flawed work as exemplary against other works, makes you look naive at best and utterly foolish at worst.  And if you're going to stand here with a straight face and claim that Kubo of all people is a better story craftsman than Togashi, then you really don't belong in the conversation.

[ben0119]

One's enjoyment of a particular work is subjective, but there is most definitely such a thing as objectively good or bad writing.  Saying otherwise is frankly an insult to those who are skilled at the craft.  Humans have been telling stories to each other for literally tens of thousands of years, and we collectively have a  good grasp on what works and what doesn't.  We can recognize what makes a character compelling, what constitutes a feasible plot twist, or what sort of dialog flows naturally.  Just because you yourself can't make those distinctions about a particular work doesn't mean that others can't.

 

There's no shame at all by being entertained by a work that isn't particularly good.  But conflating your own enjoyment of a work with the measure of its quality, and then holding that flawed work as exemplary against other works, makes you look naive at best and utterly foolish at worst.  And if you're going to stand here with a straight face and claim that Kubo of all people is a better story craftsman than Togashi, then you really don't belong in the conversation.

 

I don't know.  Critics disagree.  And have you ever noticed how they tend to like movies no one else actually likes?  Quality is subjective.  I'm allowed to not like something and/or think it is bad, and that doesn't mean I can't make distinctions in writing and story quality.  People are allowed to think shows you like are bad without being subhuman, Top_Gun.

 

Yeah because Hiatus has been so fucking compelling.  It spends its time explaining at length mundane things it thinks is interesting, building up to events and then either not delivering or off-screening them, focusing on characters that are annoying at best and boring at worst, and throwing what few characters of interest there are to the wayside.  The show's world is boring, nonsensical, and empty.  Show is a complete sausage fest.  I'm still annoyed with Gon.  He's boring but at the same time acts bizarrely.  For some reason Togashi expects us to be invested in a quasi-sociopathic character with little personality.  Killua is the biggest smug little shit, but at least he feels like an actual person that could exist.  Kurapika and Leorio were likable, decent characters.  Hisoka was fun.  They made the show bearable.  But then, well... nothing happens.  And now I know Kurapika won't appear for over a hundred episodes because "subversion," and Leorio is apparently a footnote already.  So yeah, I'm glad I stopped watching when I did and regret getting as little invested as I ever did.  It was a waste of my time.

 

I wouldn't call it "not particularly good," but I wouldn't call Bleach perfect by any means.  I give it a 10/10 on MAL but that's purely on my personal enjoyment and not objective critical quality.  There's no such thing as true objectivity by the way.  Well, I guess Togashi is really good at crafting a boring story. ;D Say what you will about Bleach, but I'm invested in its characters, the world, the lore, the events.  I care about it.  I wanted to see what would happen to the characters and where they would end up.  With Hunter x Hunter, can't say I cared about much in it, and what little I did care about, the show managed to piss away with its constant puttering around.  I'll even go one further.  I don't even really like Attack on Titan, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't somewhat invested with finding out what happens to some of the characters and learning more about the world and its mysteries.  Maybe I'm warming to it, even, who knows.  Hell, Shippuden is fucking horrid for the most part, with lots of poor execution of things and just general shittiness with the direction of the story in a lot of areas, but I'll sit there and watch it because at one time I actually liked Naruto, and I am kind of interested to see what happens to some of the characters.  HxH had its chance to make a positive impression on me and it failed.  That's how this works.  You need to reel someone in from the beginning.  Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Fullmetal Alchemist, Dragon Ball, InuYasha, plenty of other shows, they hook you from the first episode and kick things off with a bang.  HxH started with a whimper and the empty promises of "IT GETS BETTER!"  So... yeah.

 

I guess you missed the part where I said someone could have watched Cowboy Bebop + FLCL instead of the first 30-something HxH episodes and spent their time far wiser.  So I was never holding up Bleach as some pillar of perfection.  I dunno'.  I think I'll just keep going with my theory that Togashi was replaced with an alien clone, like Michael Jackson.  > Because how the hell else does the guy that supposedly created Yu Yu Hakusho make this crap? I mean, you guys have even admitted that the '99 show was better for the first parts of the story.  So, people that want to say that was all "build up" and "slow burn" (LOL) forgot that it needs to actually be interesting.  Otherwise you're not going to stick around for the supposedly better stuff that comes later.

[naraku360]

That's not what all the fanboys said.  The people that were up-selling this show and telling everyone to "keep watching it gets better" said this was the definitive version and the superior to 99 version in practically every way.

"All the fanboys" is just a ludicrously inaccurate generalization. My preference for '99 came in pretty late because I watched 2011 first and took at least 9 months before touching '99. It's more somber, with more contemplative character moments and adds some uniquely high quality filler (some of which is expanded fights). 2011 is probably popular because it follows the source more closely and has Chimera Ant. CA is a ridiculously good arc that's pretty long. 2011 has a more standard upbeat tone, as well.

[naraku360]

It's basically like if you had spin-offs all in one show, with casts taking turns.  It's not a very conventional or appreciated way to tell a story.  And it's a bit of a problem when characters are annoying and/or you don't give a shit about them.  Nobody wants to be watching The Next Generation and then all of a sudden it's like NOPE TIME TO WATCH ENTERPRISE NOW.

It has to be conventional to be good?

 

Your complaint is literally "it's weird and I can't handle anything different!"

 

I'm watching Fargo right now. Every season is spent killing a large chunk of the main cast then going to a new cast the next season. Season 2 has a 100% on Rotten Tomatoes and season 3 has a 93%.

 

Or how Twin Peaks would have extended sequences of cryptic surrealism, with that taking up half the finale and an equally large amount of the movie, but it's one of the most influential shows in American TV history.

 

So, yeah, "not conventional" is totally never "appreciated".

[ben0119]

"All the fanboys" is just a ludicrously inaccurate generalization. My preference for '99 came in pretty late because I watched 2011 first and took at least 9 months before touching '99. It's more somber, with more contemplative character moments and adds some uniquely high quality filler (some of which is expanded fights). 2011 is probably popular because it follows the source more closely and has Chimera Ant. CA is a ridiculously good arc that's pretty long. 2011 has a more standard upbeat tone, as well.

 

Well a lot of people were basically writing off '99 as an afterthought and that 2011 was the one you should watch.  The fact that 2011 follows the manga closer really isn't helping your case... That means we can't even pass this off on a poor adaptation.  The source material is just blah.  Again, nobody should have to get through 30 episodes of crap to get to the supposedly good stuff.  You're supposed to be building up the world and the lore, and getting people invested in your characters in that time.  Then that sets you up to have some epic stuff later on.  If I don't care about the story now, why would I care later?

[ben0119]

It has to be conventional to be good?

 

Your complaint is literally "it's weird and I can't handle anything different!"

 

I'm watching Fargo right now. Every season is spent killing a large chunk of the main cast then going to a new cast the next season. Season 2 has a 100% on Rotten Tomatoes and season 3 has a 93%.

 

Or how Twin Peaks would have extended sequences of cryptic surrealism, with that taking up half the finale and an equally large amount of the movie, but it's one of the most influential shows in American TV history.

 

So, yeah, "not conventional" is totally never "appreciated".

 

No, but being different doesn't automatically make it better.  Like I said, don't really care for Gon or Killua.  So, if you're going to have a shifting cast, you need to at least have all of them be appealing characters.  Bleach got brought up earlier, with how Ichigo, and plenty of other characters, for that matter, wouldn't appear for long periods of time.  With that series, you don't mind swapping between characters because you tend to like them.  Just about everybody has multiple characters they're big fans of.  And even if it's a case of someone you don't want to watch at that moment, you aren't going to watch, say, Hitsugaya's personal journey for a hundred episodes before you get back to the rest of the cast.  It's also worth noting that HxH set up the false pretense and expectations during the Hunter Exam that Gon, Killua, Kurapika, and Leorio would be a team, the main cast.  These are the characters we would be following for the rest of the series.  They even make a promise to reunite when they split up at the end of the exam.  This gives the impression the separation will be temporary, and everyone's paths will eventually meet once again.  But nope, it turns out this is the Gon and Killua show, with occasional Kurapika side stories, and I guess Leorio died on the way back to his home planet.

 

How else was HxH different?  Let's go down the list of some of the "brilliant subversions of the shonen genre," shall we?

 

Oh hey, isn't subversive that a shonen fighter won't have fights?  Wait. 

 

Yeah, let's play with candles.  You know, it reminds me of those games Yami Yugi would play before the cards came into the series.  Except there it was actually interesting and fun to watch.  So Togashi takes this kind of concept and manages to make it boring and lame.

 

We had entire episodes dedicated to sitting and talking, running and talking, tedious, obnoxious tests, hunting for a retro game console, opening a door, climbing a wall, talking to a butler on the phone, playing some stupid dice game.  Just, blah.  Yeah, it's real "different."  But, it's not interesting.  Not exciting.  Do please lecture me on what was so groundbreaking and mesmerizing about that game Gon played with the butler.

 

Hey, let's build up an entire arc to the final exam, it will be a tournament.  Okay, the way the tournament works is a little different, but that's fine.  We're going to get to see some fights.  Time for the big blowoff of the exam!  Wait, no, no.  We're not going to do that.  We'll just off-screen it all.  Climaxes don't need to be seen on-screen.  One credit I will give was the moment with Killua and his brother, probably one of the only great moments in the show up until that point.

 

In the first 30-something episodes the show was unable to establish a believable fantasy world that was interesting and made sense.  Nobody cares when anyone dies.  A world wide club card with ridiculously great perks and a license to kill is given out freely to people like Hisoka.  Nobody cares when anyone dies and you can pretty much kill anyone at will, but there's a jail.  I suppose Togashi put the jail in because he thought it was the right thing to do?  It's like he's not even sure.  A family of assassins are treated like celebrities and tour groups visit their house, which is just SO WACKY AND FUNNY, but... makes no sense.  Really, the show's "logic" is all over the map.  I guess this is all just another subversion.  We don't need to get our audience to care about the show's world right away, right?

 

Let me think of an unconventional show.  Ah, how about Moribito?  Not always the most action-packed series.  And things often aren't handled the way one would expect.  Hell, there was a whole episode with Chagum exposing someone cheating at a gambling game of some kind.  But, it was an interesting episode.  It was fun to watch the way it all played out.  There's a lot of conversations, but they're interesting conversations, and you care about the characters having them.  For a good while the show builds up a confrontation between two groups, but when the two actually meet, they talk to each other like people and realize they really have no reason to fight.  I was clapping my hands right there, because the trope of misunderstanding fueled feuds drives me up the wall.  And there are some really great action scenes, and they feel earned.  I cared about the characters there.  I don't care about much of anyone or anything in HxH, and as I said, the few things I did care about, the show pissed away with its constant puttering around.

 

I'm all for unconventional.  But whatever unconventional thing you're doing needs to actually be interesting.  It's not good just because it's different.

[naraku360]

Well a lot of people were basically writing off '99 as an afterthought and that 2011 was the one you should watch.  The fact that 2011 follows the manga closer really isn't helping your case... That means we can't even pass this off on a poor adaptation.  The source material is just blah.  Again, nobody should have to get through 30 episodes of crap to get to the supposedly good stuff.  You're supposed to be building up the world and the lore, and getting people invested in your characters in that time.  Then that sets you up to have some epic stuff later on.  If I don't care about the story now, why would I care later?

From what I've seen, the consensus is generally that the Hunter Exams are done better in '99. And some of the biggest shortcomings from an adaption standpoint are within the 2011 version, like skipping the intro episode on the island, which coincidentally includes the most significant reason Gon leaves in the first place.

 

And it's really not true that being a more faithful works against the argument. That's really pretty irrelevant, people just like applying significance to it when there isn't a whole lot.

 

Media isn't a linear construct that works simply by translating from page to motion. Fullmetal Alchemist, for example, has an excellent adaption of the early arcs in 2003. Brotherhood tends to get considered the superior version on mere virtue of being "more faithful", but the page-to-page adaption doesn't do Brotherhood any favors and in some ways makes it worse of an adaption, at least during the early sections. Basically everything up to the death of Maes is handled, honestly, somewhat poorly compared to the less faithful adaption in 2003, and even after that it took until something like the 20s to really kick off for me especially with the horribly translated comedy bits every couple minutes. That isn't a slam against FMA:B, I love the series, but it's an example of how being faithful to the manga can be a detriment to the adaption in a way the original source did not suffer from; of which I can attest FMA's manga does not have the same pacing issue, given I read quite a bit passed that point and didn't feel the same content was very uneven in manga-form.

 

'99 simply takes more artistic risks with the show. I appreciate that. It's still a weird show that does weird things. Like when Gon gets poisoned during the exams and spends several days paralyzed, instead of cutting to him pretty much recovered, there's half an episode dedicated to him slowly recovering and contemplating his failure. To my understanding that's not in the manga, and it's certainly not it 2011, but feels really appropriate and I don't think it would really work in a manga regardless.

[ben0119]

From what I've seen, the consensus is generally that the Hunter Exams are done better in '99. And some of the biggest shortcomings from an adaption standpoint are within the 2011 version, like skipping the intro episode on the island, which coincidentally includes the most significant reason Gon leaves in the first place.

 

And it's really not true that being a more faithful works against the argument. That's really pretty irrelevant, people just like applying significance to it when there isn't a whole lot.

 

Media isn't a linear construct that works simply by translating from page to motion. Fullmetal Alchemist, for example, has an excellent adaption of the early arcs in 2003. Brotherhood tends to get considered the superior version on mere virtue of being "more faithful", but the page-to-page adaption doesn't do Brotherhood any favors and in some ways makes it worse of an adaption, at least during the early sections. Basically everything up to the death of Maes is handled, honestly, somewhat poorly compared to the less faithful adaption in 2003, and even after that it took until something like the 20s to really kick off for me especially with the horribly translated comedy bits every couple minutes. That isn't a slam against FMA:B, I love the series, but it's an example of how being faithful to the manga can be a detriment to the adaption in a way the original source did not suffer from; of which I can attest FMA's manga does not have the same pacing issue, given I read quite a bit passed that point and didn't feel the same content was very uneven in manga-form.

 

'99 simply takes more artistic risks with the show. I appreciate that. It's still a weird show that does weird things. Like when Gon gets poisoned during the exams and spends several days paralyzed, instead of cutting to him pretty much recovered, there's half an episode dedicated to him slowly recovering and contemplating his failure. To my understanding that's not in the manga, and it's certainly not it 2011, but feels really appropriate and I don't think it would really work in a manga regardless.

 

That must have been shouted down by all the fanboying and obnoxious praise being lavished on HxH for years, and people crying about how it would never get licensed or come to Toonami.  If only Toonami got HxH, then we could all be saved!  And I'm not going to blame over-hype for my massive disappointment and dislike of the show, either, since JoJo was hyped to the moon and that show blew my expectations away with how awesome it was.  I haven't really heard anyone praising the 99 series til you and Top_Gun.

 

Then that means less credit can be given to Togashi's "genius." =3

 

I agree with a lot of that.  The "comedy" in FMAB, which isn't even funny, by the way, is out of place and always at the worst moments.  Was quite annoying.  Don't think we can blame that on "translation," either.  The first 13 episodes are rushed.  I like the way that material was covered in the original series better.  I cared about Hughes a lot more and felt his death way worse in the original.  People told me this was how it was supposed to be and Hughes was never supposed to be that important of a character.  Just one of those people that gets killed early on to show things are getting serious and kicking into high gear.  And I'm like, that's supposed to be a good thing?  But, for whatever it's worth, most people that have only seen Brotherhood don't seem to have an issue with the pacing or handling of the early material.  So maybe if we never saw FMA03 we wouldn't have a worse impression of the beginning of FMAB.  It's always tricky when you're seeing essentially two versions of the same thing like that.  Either way, I'll take the first 13 episodes of Brotherhood over HxH's in a heartbeat.  Yeah never read the FMA manga.  I think I planned on it after Brotherhood ended but never got around to it.

 

That doesn't sound bad.  I do remember Gon contemplating failure about something, but it wasn't that.  Think it was the badge thing.

[naraku360]

No, but being different doesn't automatically make it better.

Right off the bat putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it was. You used being unconventional as a criticism, and I pointed out how that's fucking stupid.

Like I said, don't really care for Gon or Killua.  So, if you're going to have a shifting cast, you need to at least have all of them be appealing characters.  Bleach got brought up earlier, with how Ichigo, and plenty of other characters, for that matter, wouldn't appear for long periods of time. 

But I do like Gon and Killua. So with this series, I don't mind. I got sick of Bleach pretty early. I lost interest once Ichigo went to the spirit world. I'd rather have something keep me curious,

even lightly like HxH did, than to start with okay interest then lose it all rapidly then have to drudge through hundreds of episodes I don't have interest in. I normally just drop things I've lost all interest in. HxH kept me going, Bleach didn't.

With that series, you don't mind swapping between characters because you tend to like them.  Just about everybody has multiple characters they're big fans of.  And even if it's a case of someone you don't want to watch at that moment, you aren't going to watch, say, Hitsugaya's personal journey for a hundred episodes before you get back to the rest of the cast.

Gon and Killua aren't the only characters that get focus other than Kurapika and Leorio.

  It's also worth noting that HxH set up the false pretense and expectations

during the Hunter Exam that Gon, Killua, Kurapika, and Leorio would be a team, the main cast.  These are the characters we would be following for the rest of the series.  They even make a promise to reunite when they split up at the end of the exam.  This gives the impression the separation will be temporary, and everyone's paths will eventually meet once again.  But nope, it turns out this is the Gon and Killua show, with occasional Kurapika side stories, and I guess Leorio died on the way back to his home planet. They do meet up again. Yorknew is notoriously one of the fan favorite arcs. Leorio is even in it.

 

How else was HxH different?  Let's go down the list of some of the "brilliant subversions of the shonen genre," shall we? This is stupid. I've stated multiple times that I'm not claiming it's a subversion, nor that being subversive makes something good. You keep putting words in my mouth and expecting me to explain logic I never proposed. And you don't seem to even understand what a subversion is.

 

Oh hey, isn't subversive that a shonen fighter won't have fights?  Wait.  Off the top of my head, I can think of quite a few shone that don't involve fighting.

 

Yeah, let's play with candles.  You know, it reminds me of those games Yami Yugi would play before the cards came into the series.  Except there it was actually interesting and fun to watch.  So Togashi takes this kind of concept and manages to make it boring and lame. lol no. The "season 0" games were almost universally terrible. I will admit I did like them for how brain hemorrhagingly stupid they tended to be. hurrdurr, we're a gang that trips people with yo-yos. So cool and interesting.

 

We had entire episodes dedicated to sitting and talking, running and talking, tedious, obnoxious tests, hunting for a retro game console, opening a door, climbing a wall, talking to a butler on the phone, playing some stupid dice game.  Just, blah.  Yeah, it's real "different."  But, it's not interesting.  Not exciting.  Do please lecture me on what was so groundbreaking and mesmerizing about that game Gon played with the butler. Needs more 'sploding boombooms, derpderp. -_'

 

Hey, let's build up an entire arc to the final exam, it will be a tournament.  Okay, the way the tournament works is a little different, but that's fine.  We're going to get to see some fights.  Time for the big blowoff of the exam!  Wait, no, no.  We're not going to do that.  We'll just off-screen it all.  Climaxes don't need to be seen on-screen.  One credit I will give was the moment with Killua and his brother, probably one of the only great moments in the show up until that point. #neverheardofanticlimaxes

The literal point was that Gon didn't feel like he earned his badge. It's supposed to be unfulfilling because the character you're following isn't satisfied. That's the point of anticlimaxes.

 

In the first 30-something episodes the show was unable to establish a believable fantasy world that was interesting and made sense. Or you're not smart enough to put 2 and 2 together.

Nobody cares when anyone dies. That's not unbelievable unless you have no knowledge of eastern cultures. A world wide club card with ridiculously great perks and a license to kill is given out freely to people like Hisoka. Because Netero totally came off like a moral high ground and no government would ever be reckless. Especially not in a shonen. Nobody cares when anyone dies and you can pretty much kill anyone at will, but there's a jail. Nope, you still don't know what a license to kill means. License to kill means you can take out authorized targets. Hisoka simply plans to exploit benefits, but murdering civilians is still illegal. I don't know how many times this basic concept has to be explained. I suppose Togashi put the jail in because he thought it was the right thing to do? It's like he's not even sure. It's like you thought really hard about this and are still really dumb. A family of assassins are treated like celebrities and tour groups visit their house, which is just SO WACKY AND FUNNY, but... makes no sense. Or they're glorified bounty hunters.... but it is pretty funny. Really, the show's "logic" is all over the map.  I guess this is all just another subversion. You're literally the only person on this forum that brings up subversion, like, ever. We don't need to get our audience to care about the show's world right away, right?

 

Let think of an unconventional show.  Ah, how about Moribito?  Not always the most action-packed series.  And things often aren't handled the way one would expect.  Hell, there was a whole episode with Chagum exposing someone cheating at a gambling game of some kind.  But, it was an interesting episode.  It was fun to watch the way it all played out.  There's a lot of conversations, but they're interesting conversations, and you care about the characters having them.  For a good while the show builds up a confrontation between two groups, but when the two actually meet, they talk to each other like people and realize they really have no reason to fight.  I was clapping my hands right there, because the trope of misunderstanding fueled feuds drives me up the wall.  And there are some really great action scenes, and they feel earned.  I cared about the characters there.  I don't care about much of anyone or anything in HxH, and as I said, the few things I did care about, the show pissed away with its constant puttering around. We get it, not being an action show is only okay if you like the show. That's not really a point against the series. The fact you think a show being good or bad is based purely on your enjoyment of it says more about you than it does HxH.

 

I'm all for unconventional.  But whatever unconventional thing you're doing needs to actually be interesting.  It's not good just because it's different.

[naraku360]

That must have been shouted down by all the fanboying and obnoxious praise being lavished on HxH for years, and people crying about how it would never get licensed or come to Toonami.  If only Toonami got HxH, then we could all be saved!  And I'm not going to blame over-hype for my massive disappointment and dislike of the show, either, since JoJo was hyped to the moon and that show blew my expectations away with how awesome it was.  I haven't really heard anyone praising the 99 series til you and Top_Gun. I mean, not everyon sees it that way, but that's what I was told by anyone I asked who'd seen both. But in retrospect, I do think I like '99 more for practically everything before Greed Island, which 2011 probably does do it better. The big selling point of 2011 is Chimera Ant.

 

Then that means less credit can be given to Togashi's "genius." =3 What are you talking about?

 

I agree with a lot of that.  The "comedy" in FMAB, which isn't even funny, by the way, is out of place and always at the worst moments.  Was quite annoying.  Don't think we can blame that on "translation," either. Don't mean "translate" as in Japanese to English. I meant "translation" in terms of adapting manga into anime.  The first 13 episodes are rushed.  I like the way that material was covered in the original series better.  I cared about Hughes a lot more and felt his death way worse in the original. That's what I mean. His death was fine in the manga, but didn't work all that well with FMAB, despite FMAB being more faithful. It worked in the less faithful adaption, it worked in the source, didn't really work in the faithful adaption. Since the source material=/=the adaption.. People told me this was how it was supposed to be and Hughes was never supposed to be that important of a character.  Just one of those people that gets killed early on to show things are getting serious and kicking into high gear.  And I'm like, that's supposed to be a good thing?  But, for whatever it's worth, most people that have only seen Brotherhood don't seem to have an issue with the pacing or handling of the early material.  So maybe if we never saw FMA03 we wouldn't have a worse impression of the beginning of FMAB.  It's always tricky when you're seeing essentially two versions of the same thing like that.  Either way, I'll take the first 13 episodes of Brotherhood over HxH's in a heartbeat.  Yeah never read the FMA manga.  I think I planned on it after Brotherhood ended but never got around to it.

 

That doesn't sound bad.  I do remember Gon contemplating failure about something, but it wasn't that.  Think it was the badge thing. There was a scene where he talks about his regret with Kurapika that I think is in both versions. But the scene has a bit more weight with the inclusion of watching him struggle to survive.

[ben0119]

No, but being different doesn't automatically make it better.

Right off the bat putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it was. You used being unconventional as a criticism, and I pointed out how that's fucking stupid.  Maybe I should have worded that differently.  HxH being unconventional isn't an automatic positive, and what it's doing isn't appreciated.

Like I said, don't really care for Gon or Killua.  So, if you're going to have a shifting cast, you need to at least have all of them be appealing characters.  Bleach got brought up earlier, with how Ichigo, and plenty of other characters, for that matter, wouldn't appear for long periods of time. 

But I do like Gon and Killua. So with this series, I don't mind. I got sick of Bleach pretty early. I lost interest once Ichigo went to the spirit world. I'd rather have something keep me curious,

even lightly like HxH did, than to start with okay interest then lose it all rapidly then have to drudge through hundreds of episodes I don't have interest in. I normally just drop things I've lost all interest in. HxH kept me going, Bleach didn't.  That's all well and good, but the thing I was most curious about in HxH was the baffling writing decisions being made.  Really, there wouldn't be much to talk about if it weren't for that.  So I guess if I was you I would've dropped HxH a long time ago because it killed my interest a good while before I did.  > I was trying to give it a chance.  The idiocy of Gon and Killua chopping people in the back for several episodes is where I threw my arms up and said I'm done.

With that series, you don't mind swapping between characters because you tend to like them.  Just about everybody has multiple characters they're big fans of.  And even if it's a case of someone you don't want to watch at that moment, you aren't going to watch, say, Hitsugaya's personal journey for a hundred episodes before you get back to the rest of the cast.

 

Gon and Killua aren't the only characters that get focus other than Kurapika and Leorio.

 

I guess that happens later, huh?  I already gave this show thirty something episodes and it blew it.  And even if that's true, Gon and Killua are still the main characters.  They're going to get the most focus.

  It's also worth noting that HxH set up the false pretense and expectations during the Hunter Exam that Gon, Killua, Kurapika, and Leorio would be a team, the main cast.  These are the characters we would be following for the rest of the series.  They even make a promise to reunite when they split up at the end of the exam.  This gives the impression the separation will be temporary, and everyone's paths will eventually meet once again.  But nope, it turns out this is the Gon and Killua show, with occasional Kurapika side stories, and I guess Leorio died on the way back to his home planet. They do meet up again. Yorknew is notoriously one of the fan favorite arcs. Leorio is even in it.  Yes, and then we don't see Kurapika again for a 100 episodes.  Which means the reunion was temporary and a lie.  These four were never going to be a team like we were lead to believe.  Ooh and Leorio actually appeared!  Wooooo! :

 

How else was HxH different?  Let's go down the list of some of the "brilliant subversions of the shonen genre," shall we? This is stupid. I've stated multiple times that I'm not claiming it's a subversion, nor that being subversive makes something good. You keep putting words in my mouth and expecting me to explain logic I never proposed. And you don't seem to even understand what a subversion is.  Plenty of HxH fans have said it, and if they didn't use that exact word, they said it in so many words, and that's basically what you guys have been saying.  "It's just... it's just so different!  And if you don't like it, then that means you just don't get it, man!"  That's basically the attitude.  There's noooooooo way somebody could see what the show is trying to do and not care for it.  I'm well aware of what it is.

 

Oh hey, isn't subversive that a shonen fighter won't have fights?  Wait.  Off the top of my head, I can think of quite a few shone that don't involve fighting.  Shonen fighter.  Shonen fighter.  Did you just skip over that word or what?  This is supposed to be a shonen fighter, right?  An action series, in theory?  Because it's on Toonami.  And the show talks about combat.  Yes, I am aware that shonens without fighting exist.  But if Toonami was an anime block, or even just a shonen block, they'd air stuff like Hikaru no Go.  It's not.  It's an action block.

 

Yeah, let's play with candles.  You know, it reminds me of those games Yami Yugi would play before the cards came into the series.  Except there it was actually interesting and fun to watch.  So Togashi takes this kind of concept and manages to make it boring and lame. lol no. The "season 0" games were almost universally terrible. I will admit I did like them for how brain hemorrhagingly stupid they tended to be. hurrdurr, we're a gang that trips people with yo-yos. So cool and interesting.  Dude naw they were fun.  I always liked the fitting punishment the opponents would receive.  Either way, they were entertaining, and this show's games aren't.  Heck, they aren't even particularly clever, even though the show thinks they are fucking genius.

 

We had entire episodes dedicated to sitting and talking, running and talking, tedious, obnoxious tests, hunting for a retro game console, opening a door, climbing a wall, talking to a butler on the phone, playing some stupid dice game.  Just, blah.  Yeah, it's real "different."  But, it's not interesting.  Not exciting.  Do please lecture me on what was so groundbreaking and mesmerizing about that game Gon played with the butler. Needs more 'sploding boombooms, derpderp. -_' Doesn't need it, but it needs something interesting.  That stuff wasn't.

 

Hey, let's build up an entire arc to the final exam, it will be a tournament.  Okay, the way the tournament works is a little different, but that's fine.  We're going to get to see some fights.  Time for the big blowoff of the exam!  Wait, no, no.  We're not going to do that.  We'll just off-screen it all.  Climaxes don't need to be seen on-screen.  One credit I will give was the moment with Killua and his brother, probably one of the only great moments in the show up until that point. #neverheardofanticlimaxes

The literal point was that Gon didn't feel like he earned his badge. It's supposed to be unfulfilling because the character you're following isn't satisfied. That's the point of anticlimaxes.

I thought the major point was the thing with Killua and his brother, and Gon with the power of friendship stuff.  And I'd say the anti-climax with the badge was before that when Hisoka just gave it back to Gon.  I'm talking about the big tournament final exam that had been built up to the entire arc that the show just glossed over.  I mean, pretty much the defense by fans was it didn't matter and it was all about the stuff with Killua, etc. Sure glad the show spent time building up something that didn't matter!

 

In the first 30-something episodes the show was unable to establish a believable fantasy world that was interesting and made sense. Or you're not smart enough to put 2 and 2 together.  Insults are the last resort of a tired mind that knows it has lost.  I'm pretty observant and make a good effort to try to understand stuff in shows.  So, either this show was just that boring that it couldn't hold my attention, or I didn't care enough.  Honestly aside from these inconsistencies the world is pretty empty and flat.  Not a lot going on there of interest.

Nobody cares when anyone dies. That's not unbelievable unless you have no knowledge of eastern cultures.  So eastern cultures are full of sociopaths?  No, I'm pretty sure that's not true. A world wide club card with ridiculously great perks and a license to kill is given out freely to people like Hisoka. Because Netero totally came off like a moral high ground and no government would ever be reckless. Especially not in a shonen.  You know we have nothing to base that on, right?  There's nothing to compare to.  We don't get to see what "normal" in this world is.  It just jumps right into the exam.  And given the way nobody bats an eye at death and the way Gon and other characters act, how do we know Netero and the Hunter Org. isn't seen as acceptable?  Human psychology might even work different in this world, for all we know.  I mean, plenty of the characters don't act like actual people.  So, really, nothing is off the table. Nobody cares when anyone dies and you can pretty much kill anyone at will, but there's a jail. Nope, you still don't know what a license to kill means. License to kill means you can take out authorized targets. Hisoka simply plans to exploit benefits, but murdering civilians is still illegal. I don't know how many times this basic concept has to be explained. I suppose Togashi put the jail in because he thought it was the right thing to do? It's like he's not even sure. It's like you thought really hard about this and are still really dumb.  Hisoka also said he could kill everyone in that room and it wouldn't be against the rules, and it was legal for the Hunter Org. to fucking exist and have people die in the course of their exam, killing was even allowed.  So for all we know the Hunter Org. is all powerful and/or that's the norm.  So that's why it feels like something out of left field when we find out that killing people is illegal and apparently frowned upon, since it was treated that way at all up until that point.  Hisoka pretty much even admitted that he was going to use the license to get away with murder, but they gave it to him anyway.  Either way, that hunter license is still fucking retarded.  Insults are the last resort of a tired mind knows it has lost. A family of assassins are treated like celebrities and tour groups visit their house, which is just SO WACKY AND FUNNY, but... makes no sense. Or they're glorified bounty hunters.... but it is pretty funny.  Then why are they called assassins?  And why were they portrayed that way up until then, especially with them being crazy and "wacky" and not caring about killing people. Really, the show's "logic" is all over the map.  I guess this is all just another subversion. You're literally the only person on this forum that brings up subversion, like, ever.  I'm not the one who introduced it in regards to HxH.  Like I said before, even if they weren't using the word, that's pretty much people's goto way to praise this show.  "It does stuff differently and it's so awesome!"  That line of thought has been on this forum, the podcasts, and pretty much anywhere HxH fans can be found.  I remember Daos referencing the fans a while back when he said "You don't like HxH?  Clearly you haven't heard how it's a brilliant subversion of the shonen genre!"  Summed things up to a tee. We don't need to get our audience to care about the show's world right away, right?

 

Let think of an unconventional show.  Ah, how about Moribito?  Not always the most action-packed series.  And things often aren't handled the way one would expect.  Hell, there was a whole episode with Chagum exposing someone cheating at a gambling game of some kind.  But, it was an interesting episode.  It was fun to watch the way it all played out.  There's a lot of conversations, but they're interesting conversations, and you care about the characters having them.  For a good while the show builds up a confrontation between two groups, but when the two actually meet, they talk to each other like people and realize they really have no reason to fight.  I was clapping my hands right there, because the trope of misunderstanding fueled feuds drives me up the wall.  And there are some really great action scenes, and they feel earned.  I cared about the characters there.  I don't care about much of anyone or anything in HxH, and as I said, the few things I did care about, the show pissed away with its constant puttering around. We get it, not being an action show is only okay if you like the show. That's not really a point against the series. The fact you think a show being good or bad is based purely on your enjoyment of it says more about you than it does HxH.  I think I did a pretty decent job of explaining how Moribito managed to be good with little action and doing things differently while HxH failed.  And if HxH isn't an action show, why is it on Toonami?  I dunno' what you want me to say, man.  I've stared for a long time at this 3D picture but it's just not appearing!  I'm just not seeing these good qualities in HxH that you guys profess are there.  There are plenty of times where I could say, okay, I get the appeal, but it's not my cup of tea.  I look at HxH and I go - You call this fucking tea?!

[ben0119]

This forum is not conducive to this type of quoting at all...

 

That must have been shouted down by all the fanboying and obnoxious praise being lavished on HxH for years, and people crying about how it would never get licensed or come to Toonami.  If only Toonami got HxH, then we could all be saved!  And I'm not going to blame over-hype for my massive disappointment and dislike of the show, either, since JoJo was hyped to the moon and that show blew my expectations away with how awesome it was.  I haven't really heard anyone praising the '99 series til you and Top_Gun. I mean, not everyon sees it that way, but that's what I was told by anyone I asked who'd seen both. But in retrospect, I do think I like '99 more for practically everything before Greed Island, which 2011 probably does do it better. The big selling point of 2011 is Chimera Ant.  "SKIP THE FIRST 50 EPISODES!" is not exactly a good selling point.  Especially when it's not organic, much less easy to watch part of one show then switch to the other.  Even if you have easy access to both you have to make a note of where to make the break with one and where to start with the other, and the difference in art style and voice actors, etc is sure to be jarring.  I've heard polarizing things about Chimera Ant.

 

Then that means less credit can be given to Togashi's "genius." =3 What are you talking about? You praised the '99 series for its departures from the source material.  Which means Togashi can't get credit for the stuff where it improved upon it, and the fault lies with the source material itself.  Early HxH is only salvaged by a less faithful adaptation.

 

I agree with a lot of that.  The "comedy" in FMAB, which isn't even funny, by the way, is out of place and always at the worst moments.  Was quite annoying.  Don't think we can blame that on "translation," either. Don't mean "translate" as in Japanese to English. I meant "translation" in terms of adapting manga into anime.  Honestly that comedy would be pretty awful in manga form too.  Maybe it was because I saw FMA03 first but it just didn't seem to fit with the series at all.  The first 13 episodes are rushed.  I like the way that material was covered in the original series better.  I cared about Hughes a lot more and felt his death way worse in the original. That's what I mean. His death was fine in the manga, but didn't work all that well with FMAB, despite FMAB being more faithful. It worked in the less faithful adaption, it worked in the source, didn't really work in the faithful adaption. Since the source material=/=the adaption.. I really don't see how it could work in the manga when it doesn't work so well in the anime.  I had always assumed that FMAB rushed through the material covered by the first series to get to the new stuff.  Yeah, I knew things were stretched out in the original, but I didn't think things actually went that fast in the manga.  If that's actually how it was in the manga...  People told me this was how it was supposed to be and Hughes was never supposed to be that important of a character.  Just one of those people that gets killed early on to show things are getting serious and kicking into high gear.  And I'm like, that's supposed to be a good thing?  But, for whatever it's worth, most people that have only seen Brotherhood don't seem to have an issue with the pacing or handling of the early material.  So maybe if we never saw FMA03 we wouldn't have a worse impression of the beginning of FMAB.  It's always tricky when you're seeing essentially two versions of the same thing like that.  Either way, I'll take the first 13 episodes of Brotherhood over HxH's in a heartbeat.  Yeah never read the FMA manga.  I think I planned on it after Brotherhood ended but never got around to it.

 

That doesn't sound bad.  I do remember Gon contemplating failure about something, but it wasn't that.  Think it was the badge thing. There was a scene where he talks about his regret with Kurapika that I think is in both versions. But the scene has a bit more weight with the inclusion of watching him struggle to survive.  I wanna' say we Gon struggling to survive at some point, but it's been forever.  I at least remember him crying in a tree or something.

[Daos]

 

Yeah, let's play with candles.  You know, it reminds me of those games Yami Yugi would play before the cards came into the series.  Except there it was actually interesting and fun to watch.  So Togashi takes this kind of concept and manages to make it boring and lame.

 

We had entire episodes dedicated to sitting and talking, running and talking, tedious, obnoxious tests, hunting for a retro game console, opening a door, climbing a wall, talking to a butler on the phone, playing some stupid dice game.  Just, blah.  Yeah, it's real "different."  But, it's not interesting.  Not exciting.  Do please lecture me on what was so groundbreaking and mesmerizing about that game Gon played with the butler.

 

In the first 30-something episodes the show was unable to establish a believable fantasy world that was interesting and made sense.  Nobody cares when anyone dies.  A world wide club card with ridiculously great perks and a license to kill is given out freely to people like Hisoka.  Nobody cares when anyone dies and you can pretty much kill anyone at will, but there's a jail.  I suppose Togashi put the jail in because he thought it was the right thing to do?  It's like he's not even sure.  A family of assassins are treated like celebrities and tour groups visit their house, which is just SO WACKY AND FUNNY, but... makes no sense.  Really, the show's "logic" is all over the map.  I guess this is all just another subversion.  We don't need to get our audience to care about the show's world right away, right?

 

 

Hey you forgot the walking test, the cooking test, and the waiting in the room test. That was the best one. They had to wait in a room until the timer was done counting down.

 

And the first thing Hisoka does is vaporize some guys arms. No one even asks "Wow how did he do that?" and they quickly move on to other things. Even Hisoka killing an examiner the year before wasn't enough to get him uninvited from  taking the test again.

 

On hearing that the Hunter Org is apparently in the business of giving lunatic murderers like Hisoka a licence that would let him go anywhere and do almost anything, not one of them says "Hey maybe the Hunter Org is evil and we shouldn't get mixed up with this." Makes it hard to root for our protagonists when they're basically signing up to be members of an evil organization.

 

And yeah the family of assassins being celebrities and having a demon dog that eats human flesh and leaves nothing but bones behind was also a thing. The guy just dumps the bones in the trash, no biggie. Happens all the time.

 

The worst part of all.... was that the first 3 arcs were boring. I'll tolerate mountains of illogical nonsense if it's entertaining.

[naraku360]

Maybe I should have worded that differently.  HxH being unconventional isn't an automatic positive, and what it's doing isn't appreciated.

I appreciate it. O0

That's all well and good, but the thing I was most curious about in HxH was the baffling writing decisions being made.  Really, there wouldn't be much to talk about if it weren't for that.  So I guess if I was you I would've dropped HxH a long time ago because it killed my interest a good while before I did.  > I was trying to give it a chance.  The idiocy of Gon and Killua chopping people in the back for several episodes is where I threw my arms up and said I'm done.

Eh, Heaven's Arena isn't that bad. I mean, you treat it like Gon and Killua beating up randos was supposed to be tense and not sort of silly. '99 has some problems in HA, but I do think that arc is also a bit more fun there as well.

I'll always remember you, angry Elevator Girl.

Yes, and then we don't see Kurapika again for a 100 episodes.  Which means the reunion was temporary and a lie.  These four were never going to be a team like we were lead to believe.  Ooh and Leorio actually appeared!  Wooooo! :

I'd rather have Kurapika go do his own thing in a natural progression, which really isn't sticking around with Gon and Killua, or Leorio go actually do his thing, given being a doctor doesn't have a whole lot to do with finding Ging, then have them forced into arcs they have no place in.The notion that it has to be a constant band of characters seems silly. And the fact that Kurapika got an entire arc dedicated to him is more than what most shonen would give. Most anime, for that matter, would probably just give a sappy backstory then more or less ignore him. I prefer being able to have him take off for a while than some phony dedication to the "party".

And the current arc is shaping up to be Kurapika's Chimera Ant. ::spin::

Plenty of HxH fans have said it, and if they didn't use that exact word, they said it in so many words, and that's basically what you guys have been saying.  "It's just... it's just so different!  And if you don't like it, then that means you just don't get it, man!"  That's basically the attitude.  There's noooooooo way somebody could see what the show is trying to do and not care for it.  I'm well aware of what it is.

It does some things differently and some things the same. What it did differently happened to fix a lot o my issues with other long-running series. I don't think it's a perfect show, so I do think there are valid criticisms of it. But I actually don't think you do "get it". Not because you dislike it, but because of our lackluster breakdowns of it.

Shonen fighter.  Shonen fighter.  Did you just skip over that word or what? 

Yes. I am legally blind, after all. That's not an exaggeration, by the way. Sometimes I miss words.

This is supposed to be a shonen fighter, right?

Not necessarily. There are a lot of fights, but I wouldn't consider it a fighting shonen.

An action series, in theory?

Yes, but action comes in other forms than fights. Early HxH is more about other forms, but there are quite a few actual fights.

I mean, the show bounces between genres all the fucking time.

Hunter Exam: Miscellaneous games

Heaven's Arena: "Tournament" arc, kinda....

Yorknew: Gang war with cat-and-mouse headgames

Greed Island: SAO [but not shit]

Chimera Ant: Sprawling epic [literal scale, not dumb "dat's so epic" variation] war

Uh... arc after Chimera Ant (arc title is kinda a big spoiler): Political espionage+Race against clock action/adventure

Dark Continent: Free-for-all deadgame death battle with pretext of epic--scale scope

 

There's not really any one genre to apply to all of it since all the arcs are so bizarrely different.

  Because it's on Toonami.  And the show talks about combat.

Yeah, and there's plenty of fighting. Gon and Killua are, in the grand scheme of things, pretty fucking weak early on. Unlike some shows the strength progression isn't just an immediate upgrade then fight the biggest, baddest asses until the next upgrade is needed. The viewer learns the ins and outs with Gon and Killua, and with the progression comes stronger enemies and better fights.

Yes, I am aware that shonens without fighting exist.  But if Toonami was an anime block, or even just a shonen block, they'd air stuff like Hikaru no Go.  It's not.  It's an action block.

It's also a block that airs GitS, Casshern Sins, Tenchi Muyo GXP, Big O, Kick-Heart, Space Dandy.... You seem to have a pretty narrow interpretatio of "action"

 

Dude naw they were fun.  I always liked the fitting punishment the opponents would receive.  Either way, they were entertaining, and this show's games aren't.  Heck, they aren't even particularly clever, even though the show thinks they are fucking genius.

Yugioh season 0 was fun to watch on basis of it being terrible.

I liked the candles, and Leorio's bet, and watching Kurapika drop a poser was pretty hilarious. Kurapika's always too legit to quit.

-_' Doesn't need it, but it needs something interesting.  That stuff wasn't.

Pretty sure they only spent, like, a minute talking about the phone, by the way. The others were hit or miss, but whatever. Also, don't be knocking dice games. Kaiji S2's chinchirorin was the best thing since anything ever. I mean, not really, but it's like the single worst arc until the godly payoff.

 

I thought the major point was the thing with Killua and his brother, and Gon with the power of friendship stuff.  And I'd say the anti-climax with the badge was before that when Hisoka just gave it back to Gon.  I'm talking about the big tournament final exam that had been built up to the entire arc that the show just glossed over.  I mean, pretty much the defense by fans was it didn't matter and it was all about the stuff with Killua, etc. Sure glad the show spent time building up something that didn't matter!

If you thought that was the point, it's why people don't take you seriously. You know you can have more than one point, right? The anticlimax adds salt to the wound of Hisoka's thing. Hisoka becomes an outlet for his frustration, which is built up and the payoff fight is an excellent fight.

 

Insults are the last resort of a tired mind that knows it has lost.

You always say this like it's profound. Just so you know, it isn't.

I'm pretty observant and make a good effort to try to understand stuff in shows.  So, either this show was just that boring that it couldn't hold my attention, or I didn't care enough.  Honestly aside from these inconsistencies the world is pretty empty and flat.  Not a lot going on there of interest.

  So eastern cultures are full of sociopaths?  No, I'm pretty sure that's not true.

No. A sociopath doesn't care when people they care about die, because they don't care about people. Many eastern cultures put large stock in fate. If you die, it was your time to die and that's the natural conclusion of your life.Fatalism, predeterminism, fate, destiny, so on. These are common beliefs, especially in cultures Togashi draws a lot of influence from. The fact that characters care about each other at all throws your retarded "sociopath" argument under a bus.

You know we have nothing to base that on, right?  There's nothing to compare to.  We don't get to see what "normal" in this world is.  It just jumps right into the exam.  And given the way nobody bats an eye at death and the way Gon and other characters act, how do we know Netero and the Hunter Org. isn't seen as acceptable?

"Nobody bats an eye"

"We have nothing to compare to"

-_' -_' -_' -_' -_' -_' -_' -_' -_' -_' -_' -_' -_' -_' -_'

By our standards? No, Netero isn't a moral being. :Technically spoilers, but not about any specific event):

 

Netero believes in survival of the fittest to the greatest extreme. He doesn't really give a fuck about the weak. If they die in a fight, it's their fault for losing.

 

Hisoka also said he could kill everyone in that room and it wouldn't be against the rules,

Yeah, if he killed everyone in the room, who would stop him? Everyone in the room would be dead.

and it was legal for the Hunter Org. to fucking exist

They're a government agency We have N. Korea, which executes people for watching movies they don't like. This isn't that far of a stretch.

and have people die in the course of their exam, killing was even allowed.  So for all we know the Hunter Org. is all powerful and/or that's the norm.

They are pretty powerful, but not a world leader. 

So that's why it feels like something out of left field when we find out that killing people is illegal and apparently frowned upon, since it was treated that way at all up until that point.  Hisoka pretty much even admitted that he was going to use the license to get away with murder, but they gave it to him anyway.

And? Netero wants to see what he'll do with whatever information seems the most interesting to give him. He basically says, "If you kill everyone in the room, nobody will stop you" but the joke is that Hisoka wouldn't stand a chance against Netero. 

Then why are they called assassins?  And why were they portrayed that way up until then, especially with them being crazy and "wacky" and not caring about killing people.

Becausethey are assassins? They don't just go around murdering people. They kill who their hired to. Most of the time. >.>

I'm not the one who introduced it in regards to HxH.  Like I said before, even if they weren't using the word, that's pretty much people's goto way to praise this show.  "It does stuff differently and it's so awesome!"  That line of thought has been on this forum, the podcasts, and pretty much anywhere HxH fans can be found.  I remember Daos referencing the fans a while back when he said "You don't like HxH?  Clearly you haven't heard how it's a brilliant subversion of the shonen genre!"  Summed things up to a tee. We don't need to get our audience to care about the show's world right away, right?

And again, it's fucking stupid to use an argument I HAVEN'T USED against me as if I used it.  It's pointless and a waste of everyone's time.

[CaptainStarwind]

I've leveled plenty of other criticisms against Hiatus.  Don't act like you haven't seen them.  And I don't think what I've just said isn't damning, either.  But, even if it didn't drop supposed main characters for hundred plus episodes, the show is just too good at generating viewer apathy.

 

I'll give you credit for actually watching the series a decent way through before dropping it, but what you say being damning?  Lol no.  Just because you don't like the series doesn't mean everyone doesn't like it.  There are people who like the series, even with the reasons you claim are "damning" evidence that it sucks.  I can give "damning" evidence why Eureka Seven AO is the worst thing mankind has ever done, but there's still gonna be people out there who like the series.  You can state only your opinion, and nothing more. 

[Jman]

Ben's still on about Hiatus?

 

Look, it sucked, I dropped it damn near instantly.  No need to prolong the issue.

[EmpressAngel]

No, but being different doesn't automatically make it better.  Like I said, don't really care for Gon or Killua.  So, if you're going to have a shifting cast, you need to at least have all of them be appealing characters.  Bleach got brought up earlier, with how Ichigo, and plenty of other characters, for that matter, wouldn't appear for long periods of time.  With that series, you don't mind swapping between characters because you tend to like them.

90% of Bleach characters were god awful and absolutely not worth wasting months at a time watching them shit up the page.