Toonami General Discussion Thread

[Daos]

From a less confrontational POV, you can play the long game with your story, but you need to hook the audience with something, whether it be the character hinting at something or action setpieces that will come into play later.  Hiatus x Hiatus has none of these things.

 

You don't get it man, the show is TOO GOOD to need a plot.

[Jman]

You don't get it man, the show is TOO GOOD to need a plot.

 

Then it's too good to stay on Toonami.

[Bookend47]

I know it's a known fact that Hunter x Hunter fans are incredibly defensive and overrate it as this "Masterful Deconstruction of Shonen series"! But c'mon, you said that it has "none of those things", when a subject like the Phantom Troupe has been built since Episode friggin' 1.

You don't get it man, the show is TOO GOOD to need a plot.

 

Hey, hey. You don't need to get snarky.

[Zenigundam]

Hunter x Hunter is so generic. I don't get the fanfare. I tried to get into it, but man it's boring. I'm thinking the people who rate it highly haven't seen very many shonen.

[Sketch]

Hunter x Hunter is so generic. I don't get the fanfare. I tried to get into it, but man it's boring. I'm thinking the people who rate it highly haven't seen very many shonen.

 

What do you consider to be better shounen?

 

I think the argument can be made for Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, JoJo's and  Yu Yu Hakusho are pretty close if we're talking anime adaptations.

 

For manga Rurouni Kenshin, Fullmetal and Yu Yu Hakusho are on par and One Piece and JoJos might be better.

 

I don't think Hunter x Hunter deconstructs shounen so much as perfects it and shows the benefit of Togashi's years of experience writing manga and the anime is very well adapted by Mad House.

[ameakooo]

Hunter x Hunter is so generic. I don't get the fanfare. I tried to get into it, but man it's boring. I'm thinking the people who rate it highly haven't seen very many shonen.

I dunno how far you got into Hunter x Hunter but it does have a pretty weak start imo.

[Daos]

What do you consider to be better shounen?

 

I think the argument can be made for Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, JoJo's and  Yu Yu Hakusho are pretty close if we're talking anime adaptations.

 

For manga Rurouni Kenshin, Fullmetal and Yu Yu Hakusho are on par and One Piece and JoJos might be better.

 

I don't think Hunter x Hunter deconstructs shounen so much as perfects it and shows the benefit of Togashi's years of experience writing manga and the anime is very well adapted by Mad House.

 

Perfects it into what? Bad writing? Failure at world building?  Hey remember when Killua murdered that old man for no reason and there were no consequences and no one even talks about it? What is the plot again, Gon wants to find his father or something? Hey isn't it weird how the Hunter Org basically has complete power and can do whatever they want whenever they want? Maybe the show should explain that?

 

It's been a while since I've seen a show that was mediocre hypnotize so many people into thinking it's some sort of amazing achievement in anime history.

 

I would gladly watch every Inuyasha filler episode back to back rather than watch HxH.

 

 

[PokeNirvash]

Hey remember when Killua murdered that old man for no reason and there were no consequences and no one even talks about it?

 

But there were consequences; he didn't get a Hunter's license. Plus, when you go through multiple rounds where the other competitors just up and die, and one of your allies is from a family of assassins and some of you witnessed him pull a prisoner's heart out of his body, the idea of said ally killing an old man in a fit of rage doesn't have as much of an impact as it would have on us normal folks.

[moose]

This thread is now a circle jerk of HxH hate, isn't it?

 

....

 

Welp. At least it isn't One Piece this time. Carry on.

 

*leaves*

[naraku360]

But there were consequences; he didn't get a Hunter's license. Plus, when you go through multiple rounds where the other competitors just up and die, and one of your allies is from a family of assassins and some of you witnessed him pull a prisoner's heart out of his body, the idea of said ally killing an old man in a fit of rage doesn't have as much of an impact as it would have on us normal folks.

It's also known that Killua was manipulated into doing it, potentially out of fear (submitting to Illumi's request to save Gon), but also potentially out of hypnosis.

 

And the "no one even talks about it" part is an outright lie, for that matter.

 

Gon walks in tot he meeting late and gets mad at Illumi for manipulating his friend into killing, Netero (the chairman)'s literal first line in response to Gon's objections is "Oh, we were just talking about that." Then they go on to have a brief discussion about whether or not Killua should be disqualified if his murder was involuntary.

 

There's a DISCUSSION ABOUT IT, so no, they don't simply "not talk about it".

 

Just because nobody goes, "I feel so bad about losing the old guy I didn't know, his death is so sad" doesn't mean the characters weren't clearly and blatantly pissed off about the unnecessary killing and the circumstances surrounding it.

[Daos]

Lol I'm gonna use that as a defense if I ever kill someone.

 

I was manipulated into killing the old man! Manipulated I say!

 

The show is poorly written, poorly paced, and just plain illogical. It's funny seeing you guys try to stretch logic to make it seem otherwise.

 

I mean it's not as bad as IBO because the characters are actually pretty good.... but it's mediocre at best. Toss me a plot arc where there's some actual plot and something interesting happens and I'll watch.

 

 

[naraku360]

Lol I'm gonna use that as a defense if I ever kill someone.

 

I was manipulated into killing the old man! Manipulated I say!

 

The show is poorly written, poorly paced, and just plain illogical. It's funny seeing you guys try to stretch logic to make it seem otherwise.

 

I mean it's not as bad as IBO because the characters are actually pretty good.... but it's mediocre at best. Toss me a plot arc where there's some actual plot and something interesting happens and I'll watch.

*facepalm*

 

You know, there are legal clauses to protect those who commit crimes out of fear for their own safety, right? Laws there because if someone is coerced into committing homicide, typically through threats, then the act is considered an act by the manipulator, not the perpetrator because it was not an action made on their own volition but of the one who made the threat. This is an actual thing. In the real world. In fucking America, no less.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress_in_American_law

 

"In jurisprudence, duress or coercion refers to a situation whereby a person performs an act as a result of violence, threat or other pressure against the person. Black's Law Dictionary (6th ed.) defines duress as "any unlawful threat or coercion used... to induce another to act [or not act] in a manner [they] otherwise would not [or would]". Duress is pressure exerted upon a person to coerce that person to perform an act that he or she ordinarily would not perform. The notion of duress must be distinguished both from undue influence in the civil law. In criminal law, duress and necessity are different defenses.[1][2]

 

Duress has two aspects. One is that it negates the person's consent to an act, such as sexual activity or the entering into a contract; or, secondly, as a possible legal defense or justification to an otherwise unlawful act.[3] A defendant utilizing the duress defense admits to breaking the law, but claims that he/she is not liable because, even though the act broke the law, it was only performed because of extreme unlawful pressure.[4] In criminal law, a duress defense is similar to a plea of guilty, admitting partial culpability, so that if the defense is not accepted then the criminal act is admitted.

 

Duress or coercion can also be raised in an allegation of rape or other sexual assault to negate a defense of consent on the part of the person making the allegation."

 

If this is "illogical", take it up with the American Judicial system, not me or HxH. It is a legitimate defense to be made.

 

Illumi told Killua he would kill Gon unless Killua forfeits by committing murder. Even if Illumi claims to have been teasing, chances are the only reason he had no intention of following through was because Hisoka would kill him if he did - a relationship Killua had no knowledge of - and it's doubtful Killua would trust the "just teasing" sentiment regardless. Gon is mad that Killua was forced to kill against his will, especially having been used as a pawn to force it. That makes sense, even if you don't want to admit it does.

 

Did you finish Heaven's Arena? I'd suggest watching the Yorknew arc, but it does require some knowledge set up in Heaven's Arena, in large part due to the different Nen classes. Where Toonami's at, the arc is only a small handful of episodes away.

[Daos]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

 

"However, duress is not a complete defense to all crimes. For example, the general rule, both at common law and today, is that duress is never a defense to murder; that is, one is never justified in killing another innocent person even if one's own life has been threatened, although this part may be questioned when multiple people are threatened with death if the defendant does not kill a single or fewer people than threatened "

[naraku360]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

 

"However, duress is not a complete defense to all crimes. For example, the general rule, both at common law and today, is that duress is never a defense to murder; that is, one is never justified in killing another innocent person even if one's own life has been threatened, although this part may be questioned when multiple people are threatened with death if the defendant does not kill a single or fewer people than threatened "

It's also a fantasy world with looser laws.

 

Just because it doesn't match 100% with reality (which even most courtroom shows don't typically manage) doesn't mean the point is moot. We have laws that take into consideration manipulation, to which you laughed off as illogical.

 

Frankly, in a world with hypnosis and Manipulator Nen abilities (which includes the power to take control over living things), being inclusive of murder is MORE logical, not less. Give me a good reason why murder should not be included in a world where someone could literally stick a needle in your neck and use a remote control to force you to kill someone?

 

That's not even an exaggeration. It happens in the show.

[Jman]

It still doesn't make this current batch of episodes any less boring.  Nor does it lessen the desire to have the show removed from the block.

[PokeNirvash]

Nor does it lessen "my" desire, you mean.  :

 

But hey, to each their own, even if their own isn't necessarily right.

[Bookend47]

Well this kinda escalated

[PokeNirvash]

Hey, I blame Ben for inadvertantly turning this civilized discussion of Toonami as a whole into a circlejerk of irrational HxH hate.

[naraku360]

Well this kinda escalated

You call that escalation?

 

The closest this was to escalating was the douchenozzle "Do you ever get tired of being wrong?" comment you needlessly tacked on to a failure of a rebuttal.

[naraku360]

It still doesn't make this current batch of episodes any less boring.  Nor does it lessen the desire to have the show removed from the block.

"Boring" isn't a remotely valid criticism of.... really anything.

 

Different things interest different people. You think it's boring, not everyone does.

[Sketch]

Perfects it into what? Bad writing? Failure at world building?  Hey remember when Killua murdered that old man for no reason and there were no consequences and no one even talks about it? What is the plot again, Gon wants to find his father or something? Hey isn't it weird how the Hunter Org basically has complete power and can do whatever they want whenever they want? Maybe the show should explain that?

 

It's been a while since I've seen a show that was mediocre hypnotize so many people into thinking it's some sort of amazing achievement in anime history.

 

I would gladly watch every Inuyasha filler episode back to back rather than watch HxH.

 

I can't say I agree that it has bad writing overall, a few issues here and there that are largely forgettable as the series progresses.

 

I think it has pretty great world building but it does get off to a slow start and doesn't explain enough early on.

 

You're still hung up on Killua offing that guy during the exam? Hey remember how Vegeta killed countless people and destroyed some planets and they allowed him to stay on Earth and have a family? Remember how InuYasha killed people and they more or less got over it once he was revived? Remember how Gaara killed various young ninja and he ended up as the leader of the sand village? People were told they could die in the hunter exam and many did. This isn't a nice little world. The kinds of threats hunters will have to deal with requires them to be willing to bet their lives on a regular basis.

 

As if the Hunter organization is the only organziation in shounen series with outlandishly reaching power over the world. Because things akin to super power exist it only makes sense for an organization to exist to keep the truly corrupt individuals in check.

 

The basic premise is Gon wanted to become a hunter so he could find his father but he quickly realizes that in order to accomplish that he still has much to learn. Currently he's not satisfied that he was unable to match Hisoka and is aiming to get strong enough to fight him. He wont make use of his Hunter benefits package until he can do that because he feels he hasn't earned it. But he see's Killua as more than a murderer and wanted to stay friends so he took the time to seek him out.

 

Arguably the journey has been sidetracked a few times but that's part of life. One often sets out to do something only to realize the goal is furthur away than they had anticipated and they work toward it however they can. Meanwhile, Kurapika is also working toward his goal of revenge and is also realizing that he still has much to learn before he can fight the Phantom Troupe.

 

I will say the pacing of the show so far has only been decent at best but the pacing does pick up IMO which is a welcome change from Shippuden and One Piece. It had those two recap episodes early on but is otherwise devoid of filler in it's 148 episode run. That scores it points in the adaptation by itself but it's also nicely animated and I like the music.

 

The Heavens Arena is dragging currently but there's some really thrilling stuff by the end of it and York New is freak'n great IMO.

[Daos]

If you're using DBZ as an example you probably shouldn't. It's also horribly written and illogical.

 

But it's entertaining so I'm a lot more forgiving.

 

Look, a lot of you guys are the same people that watch IBO and think it's interesting and exciting with great characters. So some of you will pretty much just watch anything.

[Sketch]

If you're using DBZ as an example you probably shouldn't. It's also horribly written and illogical.

 

But it's entertaining so I'm a lot more forgiving.

 

Look, a lot of you guys are the same people that watch IBO and think it's interesting and exciting with great characters. So some of you will pretty much just watch anything.

 

True, DBZ is pretty badly written but I also gave the InuYasha example and the Naruto one and you admitted you'd rather watch InuYasha filler than HxH so it seemed appropriate. InuYasha was known to terrorize the people of the land but now he goes around from village to village and not even that many of them seem to care about his past transgressions.

 

So if anything MOST shounen are badly written and cliche right? So it's not such a stretch to say another series with apparent flaws could still be better and that's the stance I'm taking.

 

I think ultimately it comes down to whether or not you have any attachment to the characters or as you claim with DBZ, get entertainment value out of them. One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, Fullmetal, Kenshin and Yu Yu Hakusho are all series that have succeeded at effectively tugging on my heart strings, given me some laughs and had enough exciting moments worth remembering.

 

I personally felt IBO was a snore most of the time and did not flesh out it's characters well despite having plenty of time to do so. It became chore to finish the simulcast much less finish watching it on Toonami.

 

I get a great deal of entertainment value out of Hunter x Hunter though admittedly it's more so in other arcs.

[moose]

If you're using DBZ as an example you probably shouldn't. It's also horribly written and illogical.

 

But it's entertaining so I'm a lot more forgiving.

 

Look, a lot of you guys are the same people that watch IBO and think it's interesting and exciting with great characters. So some of you will pretty much just watch anything.

 

Opinions, man.

 

I mean, you think Fairy Tail is good, of all things. Lmao.

 

I completely disagree with you, but I'm not going to mock you or call out your tastes because of it.

 

So do the same for those who like HxH or IBO. Simple.

[Daos]

I don't remember Inuyasha killing any humans or doing anything super bad, but it's been a while. I mean maybe some bandits now and then? But I don't recall any unprovoked murders.

[ameakooo]

I don't remember Inuyasha killing any humans or doing anything super bad, but it's been a while. I mean maybe some bandits now and then? But I don't recall any unprovoked murders.

at the beginning of the series he was perfectly fine with offing any human he pleased. I don't remember if it actually happened or not since its been years since I watched the series, but yaknow.

[Jman]

IBO at least had character development, and forward progress.  HxH is an absolute chore.

[Bookend47]

IBO at least had character development, and forward progress.  HxH is an absolute chore.

 

Edit-nvm

[naraku360]

IBO at least had character development, and forward progress.  HxH is an absolute chore.

"I don't like how characters develop or the plot progression"=/=There is no character development or forward progress

 

You don't seem to understand that you not liking the way something plays out doesn't equate to it not having those things.

[Jman]

It's one thing if the arc moves in a direction I don't like.  It's another if there's no discernible advancement.

 

I hate this fucking show.  Opinion.  The characters haven't done a lot to move the plot forward.  Objective.

[naraku360]

Gon sets out to become a Hunter to find dad.

Gon becomes a Hunter.

Gon feels cheated by not earning the license, and thus not deserving of the help the license provides.

Gon works to meet his standards and to become deserving of the license, which only takes

 

until the end of the current Toonami arc.

 

"Not done a lot to progress plot".

 

Any other long running shonen, they'd still have the protagonist trying to get the license. And if the protagonist gets the reward through cheap bullshit, they wouldn't think twice about getting an easy out.

 

That's a lot more progress and characterization than basically any other shonen, with few exceptions like FMA.

[Daos]

It's one thing if the arc moves in a direction I don't like.  It's another if there's no discernible advancement.

 

I hate this fucking show.  Opinion.  The characters haven't done a lot to move the plot forward.  Objective.

 

Remember when they spent an entire episode opening a door?

 

And then that time they spent half the episode on the phone? LOL this show.

[naraku360]

Remember when they spent an entire episode opening a door?

 

And then that time they spent half the episode on the phone? LOL this show.

Because shonens are so known for those fantastic training episodes.

 

Wait... no, the training episodes in basically every shonen are the most boring shit imaginable. "Hurr punch durr no harder" [20 minutes later] "hurrdurr dats gud!"

 

At least this made some level of sense and tried something new. And you severely exaggerate the phone thing. It was like, 3-4 minutes (protip: that's not half of a 22 minute episode) that are mostly there to establish how isolated the family forces Killua to be. So not only was it relevant to who Killua is as a person, but also not even close to the duration you inflate it to.

 

I like that you just harp on 2-3 points about very specific instances and are universally wrong about them.

 

Dao, is being wrong your default setting?

[PokeNirvash]

I think his default setting is actually being a jerk to shows he hates as if their subjective badness is as factual as the Pope's being Catholic.

[moose]

So basically like Jman and a good deal of people that come from the ASMB.

 

(Oh yeah.... I remember the DUD known as Todd)

[naraku360]

Jman's default setting is pants-shitting rage.

[moose]

Because shonens are so known for those fantastic training episodes.

 

Wait... no, the training episodes in basically every shonen are the most boring shit imaginable. "Hurr punch durr no harder" [20 minutes later] "hurrdurr dats gud!"

 

At least this made some level of sense and tried something new. And you severely exagerate the phone thing. It was like, 3-4 minutes (protip: that's not half of a 22 minute episode) that are mostly there to establish how isolated the family forces Killua to be. So not only was it relevant to who Killua is as a person, but also not even close to the duration you inflate it to.

 

I like that you just harp on 2-3 points about very specific instances and are universally wrong about them.

 

Dao, is being wrong your default setting?

 

There's no point in arguing with people like him. They dislike something and pretend to think their opinions are facts and completely exaggerate aspects  from whatever they're talking about.

 

They do this to push and nothing else. I garrentie you he's gonna come back with the same tired ol' argument, even though you already proved him wrong. It's useless.

[Blatch]

Remember when they spent an entire episode opening a door?

 

And then that time they spent half the episode on the phone? LOL this show.

 

Remember when Attack on Titan spent multiple episodes trying to move a boulder?

[MasqueradeOverture]

http://programminginsider.com/ratings/final-nationals/saturday-final-nationals-lions-seahawks-nbc-dips-9-year-viewership-low-saturday-night-nfl-wild-card/

 

That 8:00pm showing hurt more than anything.

 

But when the rest of [AS] is also piss poor, one has to wonder the significance in the number of people who've cut their cords in the past 3 or so years (Family Guy used to get 2.5 mil in 2013 / 2014).

 

Gundam's legacy has soured in America it seems.

[moose]

I don't think Gundam itself was popular, really.

 

Gundam WING was popular.

[MasqueradeOverture]

I don't think Gundam itself was popular, really.

 

Gundam WING was popular.

 

Kinda what I mean.

 

It's a franchise people see and go "Oh...that. I don't like that." Hell, every other Gundam series they aired back in the day that wasn't Wing or G Gundam got mediocre ratings at best. It's a heavily nostalgic property because of how many of them were aired back to back, but that doesn't mean the majority of people tuning in primarily for DBZ actually enjoyed it.

 

And that is a damn shame.

[Jman]

G is sorta the antithesis of UC being both optimistic and bugnuts insane.

[moose]

Kinda what I mean.

 

It's a franchise people see and go "Oh...that. I don't like that." Hell, every other Gundam series they aired back in the day that wasn't Wing or G Gundam got mediocre ratings at best. It's a heavily nostalgic property because of how many of them were aired back to back, but that doesn't mean the majority of people tuning in primarily for DBZ actually enjoyed it.

 

And that is a damn shame.

 

Mmm, welp. Nothing different there. Mainstreamers only caring about DBZ and nothing else when it comes to anime is the norm, even now.

[MasqueradeOverture]

Come to think about it, it was weird. I remember being in 5th grade and people talking about YYH and Rurouni Kenshin positively, but denounced G Gundam because "Giant robots are stupid."

 

Whelp, now I know why mech shows always seem to bomb.

[moose]

As a person who doesn't really like mecha anime, I can attest to that. I just don't really like robots very much. I much prefer a good ol' fashioned brawl between people than between robots.

[Jman]

Really?  Toys of robots sell.  Transformers movies have made how much again?

[MasqueradeOverture]

Really?  Toys of robots sell.  Transformers movies have made how much again?

 

Non-toyetic I mean.

 

Remember Giant Robot Week? You'd think kids would love that, but it bombed...hard. Gurren Lagaan doing well on Sci-Fi was just because Japan's "It" show happened to be that at the time, and Wing did well because of the cultural leftovers of Power Rangers and Transformers.

[Jman]

Giant Robot Week bombed because Toonami made the INSANE promise all the shows would be uncensored.

 

This included Evangelion episodes 1 and 2.

 

I remember when I found out they were censored, I stopped watching.

[MasqueradeOverture]

Giant Robot Week bombed because Toonami made the INSANE promise all the shows would be uncensored.

 

The hell? There is no way it's possible for anyone to think they could get away with doing that on a kids' network at 5 in the afternoon.

 

I call bullshit on this.

[moose]

Giant Robot Week bombed because Toonami made the INSANE promise all the shows would be uncensored.

 

This included Evangelion episodes 1 and 2.

 

I remember when I found out they were censored, I stopped watching.

 

Transformers does well largely because of nostalgia and the bombastic appeal of the recent films (terrible as they are).

 

And of course Gundam Wing was a hit and Gurren Lagann did fine for itself, but those are all really just exceptions. Robots seem more popular in Japan then they do here.