Will there be an Animegate?

[Daos]

7 minutes ago, Jman said:

Even by the director’s own admittance she didn’t belong in the film.  She was an idiot who made Finn less likable by association, and I really liked Finn in the TFA.  He certainly wasn’t the coward TLJ portrayed him as.  When his friend was in danger, his first instinct was to grab a lightsaber and charge the Sith Lord unsure if he could win.  Here he needs Rose to act as a moral compass despite being completely unlikable and idiotic.

Lol that's another thing. They turned him into a buffoon played for comedy. The entire movie seemed like they were trying to imitate the Marvel Universe cinematic beats. Billions of people are dying! The New Republic got blown up! Everyone's dying! Quick someone make a humorous quip! 

Wasn't the original intent to get Finn and Rey together, but they chickened out on the whole interracial thing at the last minute and decided to just turn him into a doofus instead?

Oy what a movie.

[Jman]

Can’t have that.

There’s a rumor Episode 9 will involve a Rey/Kylo love child.  Yeah...

[Daos]

38 minutes ago, Jman said:

Can’t have that.

There’s a rumor Episode 9 will involve a Rey/Kylo love child.  Yeah...

Obviously that's not true. It's just a ... GOTCHA

 

[Top Gun]

1 hour ago, Jman said:

Even by the director’s own admittance she didn’t belong in the film.  She was an idiot who made Finn less likable by association, and I really liked Finn in the TFA.  He certainly wasn’t the coward TLJ portrayed him as.  When his friend was in danger, his first instinct was to grab a lightsaber and charge the Sith Lord unsure if he could win.  Here he needs Rose to act as a moral compass despite being completely unlikable and idiotic.

Where are you getting the cowardice bullshit from?  His entire goal throughout the film was to get to Rey and help her.  Short-sighted and selfish, yes, but he didn't think twice about putting himself in danger to do so.

I will freely admit that much of the Finn/Rose subplot could have used a defter editing touch, but I legitimately like what she represents.  She was a true Everywoman in a franchise that has rarely (if ever) allowed those to get any legitimate presence.

1 hour ago, Daos said:

Uh yeah see, It looked nice and all, that's not the issue. I don't think you really thought this through. See, by opening up this can O worms, you basically make it impossible for any faction in Star Wars to field a big ship. Because some dude with a much smaller ship can just destroy it by going into hyperspace now.

A Super Star destroyer was 8k long. Snokes Dread was 60km wide. A heavy cruiser 3.4k long was able to destroy a 60km Dreadnaught.. and at least 6 other Star destroyers that were escorting it.

So going by these new rules, you can't have big ships, and you definitely can't travel in a fleet with big ships. Your entire fleet could be wiped out by a ship you never even saw. Not only that, you wouldn't need a Death Star. You could destroy any planet by setting any big fat ship to auto pilot into a planet. You could destroy the death star by sending an empty freighter into it.

Why didn't anyone do this in the last 5000 years Hyperdrive has been around? Because Hyperspace doesn't work like that. Or at least it didn't, until a guy named Rian decided to make a movie.

Long story short, not only were the characters ruined, the entire concept of how space battles in Star Wars work is ruined. So there's really no where you can go from there. Time to pull an Amazing Spiderman 2, realize how badly you messed up, and reboot.

 

Um, that's how hyperspace has ALWAYS worked, going all the way back to the OT and much of the EU.  Objects with large mass cast "shadows" into hyperspace that would destroy a ship that passed through them, which made precise navigational calculations a necessity.  (See also the hand-waving to explain the infamous "made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs" line.)  A large ship colliding with a much larger ship while entering hyperspace is going to obliterate the large ship and seriously fuck up the larger ship.  The only reason the other ships got taken out is because they were directly in line with the debris and got shotgunned by it.  As for why it hasn't been done in the past?  Because A) the Rebel Alliance didn't exactly have enough capital ships to start sending them on suicide runs against a nigh-limitless fleet of Star Destroyers, B) nothing suggests that they would go for a kamikaze culture, and C) just what do you propose they actually would have accomplished?  A 4-kilometer cruiser only managed to shear off the wing of a dreadnought, not immediately destroy it outright.  Aiming one at a planet-sized battle station would accomplish nothing more than a mild puff of smoke and a Death Star in need of a new paint job.

But really this sort of surface-level whataboutism is supremely uninteresting.  It tries to bury the actual themes and purpose of a film beneath a mountain of fanwank.  Maybe some people get off on that, but I don't.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Top Gun

[Daos]

Oh come on..... they don't have enough capital ships? They don't want to Kamikaze? The Imperials don't want to Kamikaze either? No one wants to program empty ships to ram into other ships? 

"As a result, Hux could watch only in horror as the Raddus severed the starboard wing, further destroying at least six escorting Resurgent-class Star Destroyers in the process. However, due to extensive preparations undertaken by Snoke, a large portion of the First Order's leadership was able to escape.[In spite of significant damage to the ship, it nonetheless remained functional. Regardless, the flagship was later deemed to be a lost cause by the First Order, evacuated and scuttled."

She destroyed a 60km Dreadnaught and 6 star destroyers with a cruiser. No one thought of that in 4000 years huh? Cuz they've had hyperspace for 4000 years. Lets say everyone for the last 4000 years couldn't think of it. Well even so, the cats out of the bag now. Surely everyone will be trying this new bold and highly cost efficient strategy?

Buy old freighters. Point at enemy Star Destroyer. Engage Hyperdrive. Annnnd it's gone.

And no, Hyperspace doesn't work like that. You seem to think it's like going... super super fast. It's an alternate dimension outside normal space and time. Otherwise you'd die instantly as your ship would collide with the near infinite amounts of debri and particles that exist in space at thousands of times the speed of light.

You really think this makes any kind of sense for this tactic to just suddenly appear? Liking the movie is one thing but this? =P

Edited September 8, 2018 by Daos

[PokeNirvash]

This has to be the most I've seen Top_Gun post in a single thread in months. And all it took was shit-talking the new Star Wars films.

[CatSoul]

High Guardian Spice isn't even anime, and Funimation hopefully has trained all their dub writers on what exactly makes people sperg out when they hear in a Chinese cartoon at this point.

Considering Anime News Network's changes in forum policy, it's almost like #AnimeGate was preemptively censored. 

[EmpressAngel]

14 hours ago, Jman said:

Also Rose Tico is basically Jar Jar.

How fucking dare you.

[Daos]

24 minutes ago, EmpressAngel said:

How fucking dare you.

You liked her character? =P

She almost doomed the entire resistance because she wanted some BBC.

[The1gairon]

2 hours ago, CatSoul said:

High Guardian Spice isn't even anime,

What the hell does it matter where something is made!?? EVERY cartoon today is an international production!

[Jman]

1 hour ago, EmpressAngel said:

How fucking dare you.

At least Jar Jar won his battle.

Oh yeah, I went there.  (And he is more tolerable in Clone Wars because everyone hating his guts is canon).

[Daos]

3 minutes ago, Jman said:

At least Jar Jar won his battle.

Oh yeah, I went there.  (And he is more tolerable in Clone Wars because everyone hating his guts is canon).

I'd take Jar Jar over Rose. I'd take the Phantom Menace over Last Jedi.

And give Lucas credit, when he saw the backlash against Jar Jar he drastically scaled back his role in the next movies.

JJ and Rian are the kind of people that would see the backlash, tell the fans that they're wrong, and then give Rose an even bigger role in the next movie out of spite.

[Jman]

2 minutes ago, Daos said:

I'd take Jar Jar over Rose. I'd take the Phantom Menace over Last Jedi.

And give Lucas credit, when he saw the backlash against Jar Jar he drastically scaled back his role in the next movies.

JJ and Rian are the kind of people that would see the backlash, tell the fans that they're wrong, and then give Rose an even bigger role in the next movie out of spite.

From what I understand that’s the plan.  Because everyone who disagrees is a Nazi.

Unless she dies in the first five minutes I don’t care.  I remember reading the damn Thrawn trilogy, being excited, but nope, don’t care.  Won’t spend another cent on this franchise.

[Daos]

I didn't see 8 in theaters because 7 was kind of lackluster to me, I just ended up seeing it after all the crazy things people kept saying about it. I figured they were just exaggerating like people always do. They weren't.

The Han Solo movie came out right after Jedi, and was the first Star Wars movie to ever lose money. Supposedly they're in panic mode now and shelved a bunch of their future one off movies.... if you believe the rumor mill.

[The1gairon]

53 minutes ago, Daos said:

I'd take Jar Jar over Rose. I'd take the Phantom Menace over Last Jedi.

And give Lucas credit, when he saw the backlash against Jar Jar he drastically scaled back his role in the next movies.

JJ and Rian are the kind of people that would see the backlash, tell the fans that they're wrong, and then give Rose an even bigger role in the next movie out of spite.

... r you even trying to mention Rose and Jar-Jar like they're treated the same way by the audience?

[Daos]

1 hour ago, elfie said:

... r you even trying to mention Rose and Jar-Jar like they're treated the same way by the audience?

Uhhh kinda? People hate that character. Is it on the same scale as Jar Jar? Probably not. They basically forced her off social media with months of harassment.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-rose-tico-defense/

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/kelly-marie-tran-talks-online-bullying-i-dont-know-ill-ever-go-back-watch-1140108

[QueenoftheDorks]

If you can't recognize the reason why people hate Rose more than Jar Jar then I don't know what to tell you.

[Daos]

10 minutes ago, QueenoftheDorks said:

If you can't recognize the reason why people hate Rose more than Jar Jar then I don't know what to tell you.

Uhhh I assumed Elfie was saying Jar Jar is more hated. I also assume Jar Jar is the more hated character. If you were around to see the hatred after The Phantom Menace came out I think you'd agree.

[Jman]

Lucas minimized Jar Jar’s presence and played up his annoyance in-universe which helped rehabilitate the character somewhat.  The people behind Rose are doubling down.

[PokeNirvash]

I remember seeing Revenge of the Sith in the theaters and thinking it was surreal seeing Jar Jar all solemn and shit.

[EmpressAngel]

5 hours ago, Daos said:

You liked her character? =P

I liked her as a character, but I agree that the Fin and Rose's Bizarre Adventure subplot could have been handled better.

[Jman]

54 minutes ago, PokeNirvash said:

I remember seeing Revenge of the Sith in the theaters and thinking it was surreal seeing Jar Jar all solemn and shit.

Slight geekout mode -

There's a novel set before Episode IV that came out that reveals everyone knows Jar Jar helped Palpatine get power and led to the founding of the Empire, so he's persona non grata on Naboo, basically treated the same as a leper.  He ends up working as a clown at a hospital for sick children, since they're the only ones that don't hate him.  It's actually kind of poignant. 

[Daos]

1 hour ago, Jman said:

Slight geekout mode -

There's a novel set before Episode IV that came out that reveals everyone knows Jar Jar helped Palpatine get power and led to the founding of the Empire, so he's persona non grata on Naboo, basically treated the same as a leper.  He ends up working as a clown at a hospital for sick children, since they're the only ones that don't hate him.  It's actually kind of poignant. 

Awww poor Jar Jar. He only made that vote because Padme was off hiding from assassins, otherwise she would have cast the vote.

I looked it up, good ol Jar Jar dialogue!

"Jar Jar makin some uh-oh mistakens," the Gungan says, explaining why he isn't wanted anywhere either. "Desa hisen Naboo tink I help the uh-oh Empire." He stares into the distance, suggesting he knows more than he's saying. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Daos

[EmpressAngel]

3 hours ago, Jman said:

Slight geekout mode -

There's a novel set before Episode IV that came out that reveals everyone knows Jar Jar helped Palpatine get power and led to the founding of the Empire, so he's persona non grata on Naboo, basically treated the same as a leper.  He ends up working as a clown at a hospital for sick children, since they're the only ones that don't hate him.  It's actually kind of poignant. 

Oh my god, what the fuck.

[The1gairon]

5 hours ago, QueenoftheDorks said:

If you can't recognize the reason why people hate Rose more than Jar Jar then I don't know what to tell you.

And I can't understand why I am even still on this thread.

[The1gairon]

5 hours ago, Jman said:

Lucas minimized Jar Jar’s presence and played up his annoyance in-universe which helped rehabilitate the character somewhat.  The people behind Rose are doubling down.

There wasn't anywhere near the amount of strong online backlash against a movie character when Episode I came out. Lucas Best had years to be convinced he won't be in movies anymore. Today, everyone is so scared of taking risks, they'll gladly shove an actor off social media within only 6 months.

[HardcoreHunter]

I think they actually had to go back and change some of the stuff in My girlfriends a Gal because of the backlash on it. I don't think they did the same for prison school though. Dragon Maid also had a line in it but idk if it got changed. 

As for anime I'd say no, Japan will do what Japan does. They make things for their market, and if we just so happen to enjoy it then thats good, if not then they couldn't care less. 

The issue more is with localization practices. Really the politics need to be left out. It dates the material, it would be like when Cowboy Bebop or Outlaw Star were being aired, and the dub keeps making references to 9/11 never forget, or hurricane Katrina because it was relevant at the time. It's in poor taste to insert these politics imho.

 What is probably worse is how confrontational the ADR staff has gotten over this. They've called people out as misogynists over it. Funimation had since gone on record claiming that they have no responsibility for things that their writers say (makes no sense). However claimed that adding unrelated material that doesn't fit the scene is disrespectful towards the material and it's creators. 

In the end if it affects Funimations bottom line enough they'll step in and be more hands on with their ADR staff. 

[HardcoreHunter]

9 hours ago, elfie said:

What the hell does it matter where something is made!?? EVERY cartoon today is an international production!

I still wouldn't call it an anime. A lot of episodes of Tiny Tunes were made in Japan as well. I get the point you're trying to make, but it's like calling Markiplier or Pewdiepie a sitcom. 

[ben0119]

On 9/7/2018 at 1:55 AM, Daos said:

  Hide contents

Torching all the build up on the mystery of Snoke and who Rey's parents were is not good writing. I mean I guess it's bold, but it's awful. I thought Mark Hamil was just being a cranky old guy when he went around before the movie came out saying how they screwed up Luke's character and Luke would never act the way he does in the movie, but he was dead on.

Snoke looks pretty old, where was he for the last 50 years? Just keeping to himself with massive force powers? Guess he decided to bide his time on this one eh?

Luke has a vision so tries to murder his nephew while he's sleeping? Uhhh right. The same guy that wouldn't kill mass murderer Vader? Luke dies because he used too much energy for a force projection? Stupid.

Leia suddenly can use the force and not die in space? Stupid.

Rey is a Mary Sue.  She's been using the force for under a week and already defeated Kylo and Luke in combat. Even young Darth Vader couldn't do any of the stuff she does.

Kylo got beaten in the first movie by someone who turned on a light saber once. No credibility as a villain now.

Daisey Ridley can't act.

Rose makes Jar Jar look wonderful by comparison. Finn tries to sacrifice himself to save the rebels, but Rose knocks him out of the way.... which would probably have killed the entire rebellion and doomed the galaxy. But it's ok because she likes him or something.

Finn was supposed to have some sort of beef with captain Phasma but she dies after a 30 second fight. That was supposed to be his main nemesis by the way, the lady that got 1 minute of screen time.

So uh, where's the rest of the New Republic? Their fleets?  Their thousands of planets?  Why is the First Order so strong again?

Leia Han and Luke accomplished literally nothing in the last 40 years. Han returns to being a smuggler and Luke basically turns Kylo evil by trying to murder him in his sleep, then spends the next 30 years sulking alone on a rock. They accomplish nothing, the galaxy is a terrible place, and then they die for dubious reasons. If Lando comes back in the next one they'll just have him die in some stupid way.... oh and I hear he's pansexual now?

Luke doesn't want to help and didn't want anyone to find him.... but left a map so people could find him.

And the big fail that ruins the entire concept of Star Wars... the hyperdrive suicide attack. Hyperdrive doesn't work like that. Because of that stupidity, there would be no reason to ever build a big ship. Or a Death Star. Because you could just kill them with a smaller ship by pointing it at it and sending it into hyperdrive. So the entire concept of space fighting in Star Wars is just ruined. Any time you see a big ship you'll just be thinking..... well why don't they just one shot it like that one lady did that time?

Basically it wasn't just a bad movie like say... The Phantom Menace. This was a franchise killer. 

And you were ok with all of that and LOVED it? That's why I had a little trouble believing my eyes on that one. If you weren't familiar with Star Wars at all and saw it I can see why people might like it, it's a beautiful looking movie. But you're familiar with Star Wars yeah? And you still liked it? That's just baffling to me.

There's also the fact that Rian Johnson admitted that he just tossed out all the notes given to him from the previous director so there's absolutely zero coherence between the first two films of this trilogy.

 

Torching all the build up on the mystery of Snoke and who Rey's parents were is not good writing. I mean I guess it's bold, but it's awful. I thought Mark Hamil was just being a cranky old guy when he went around before the movie came out saying how they screwed up Luke's character and Luke would never act the way he does in the movie, but he was dead on.

Why is this spoilered?  It just makes it more of a pain in the ass for me to reply to.  The movie has been out for 9 months, which is plenty of time for people to have seen it.  But not enough time for people to move on from bitching about it, apparently. 

That build up mostly is by the fans.  Snoke isn't nearly as important or interesting as a bunch of guys with endless fan theories think.  What was he going to do that was so interesting?  All I ever heard about was what's his back story, when we never got one for the Emperor in Jedi and no one cared then.  He was just the big evil guy.  I told you that Rey Random was set up by the conversation with Maz and the fact that she's never been off Jakku, with her comment of seeing all the green on Maz's planet.  And how about making sense for the plot?  For Rey to be related to anyone special, it means she was either mind-wiped, or dropped off on the planet as a baby, for reasons, and those parents are terrible since they left her on such a shit hole in the care of Unkar Plutt and never went back for her.  So whatever past character(s) are her parents would be "ruined" that way, too, according to you.

Mark Hamill changed his mind after the movie came out.

Snoke looks pretty old, where was he for the last 50 years? Just keeping to himself with massive force powers? Guess he decided to bide his time on this one eh?

I guess.  And I'd wager he's been around way longer than that.  I mean, JJ didn't explain it, either, but there's still one movie left.

Luke has a vision so tries to murder his nephew while he's sleeping? Uhhh right. The same guy that wouldn't kill mass murderer Vader? Luke dies because he used too much energy for a force projection? Stupid.

He tried to kill Vader but stopped.  It's the same thing here.  And Luke didn't even get that far this time.  He just thought about it and took out his lightsaber.  Luke shut himself off from the Force.  The ability he used was obviously taxing.  I'd say that and the fact he hadn't used Force powers in forever is what did him in.  Rusty and over-exerted himself.  People don't have infinite energy, you know.

Leia suddenly can use the force and not die in space? Stupid.

Leia could always use the Force.  She saved herself instinctually.  Not sure how that's any different than Luke grabbing the lightsaber in the wampa cave or any other self-preservation instinctual uses of the Force we've seen.

Rey is a Mary Sue.  She's been using the force for under a week and already defeated Kylo and Luke in combat. Even young Darth Vader couldn't do any of the stuff she does.

Rey is open-minded and trusts in the Force.  Luke was the opposite.  He couldn't lift the X-wing because he didn't believe he could.  So, being a Jedi is not like a videogame.  You don't unlock new powers by level-grinding and increasing your Force Mana stats.  It's about state of mind and belief in the Force.  Kylo was injured by a weapon that throws other people across the ground, and was emotionally shaken from killing Han.  He wasn't trying to kill Rey, either, but capture her.  And Rey was pushed back the entire fight until she gave herself over to the Force.  Bested Luke in combat?  Lmao you think that was besting Luke?  That wasn't a serious fight.  Luke could have beaten her if he wanted to.  Not sure what you are on about saying Vader couldn't do stuff like this.

Kylo got beaten in the first movie by someone who turned on a light saber once. No credibility as a villain now.

Well he killed Snoke, and as I explained earlier, a more focused, uninjured Kylo is something to worry about.  Now he can be the tryant and do whatever he wants, and given how unstable he is, it makes him dangerous.

Daisey Ridley can't act.

You're a poor judge of acting skills.  Daisey Ridley can't act because you don't like Rey?  Ok.

Rose makes Jar Jar look wonderful by comparison. Finn tries to sacrifice himself to save the rebels, but Rose knocks him out of the way.... which would probably have killed the entire rebellion and doomed the galaxy. But it's ok because she likes him or something.

Finn's rickety-ass speeder was melting just from the targeting beam.  It was obvious he wasn't going to do any damage to the weapon.

Finn was supposed to have some sort of beef with captain Phasma but she dies after a 30 second fight. That was supposed to be his main nemesis by the way, the lady that got 1 minute of screen time.

No disagreements that Phasma was poorly handled... in both movies.  She's basically the Boba Fett of the sequel trilogy.  Too much else going on in the movies for her to get more time though.  And she was added as an afterthought, because that cool design was originally for Kylo's armor, but they didn't want to waste it.

So uh, where's the rest of the New Republic? Their fleets?  Their thousands of planets?  Why is the First Order so strong again?

Apparently most of it was lost at the Hosnian system.  They said that in TFA.  Maybe the others are running scared.  They did just see a whole solar system get destroyed.  The First Order has been able to amass their forces for decades unmolested in the Unknown Regions because the Republic didn't consider them a threat.  That was why Leia had to form the Resistance in the first place.

Leia Han and Luke accomplished literally nothing in the last 40 years. Han returns to being a smuggler and Luke basically turns Kylo evil by trying to murder him in his sleep, then spends the next 30 years sulking alone on a rock. They accomplish nothing, the galaxy is a terrible place, and then they die for dubious reasons. If Lando comes back in the next one they'll just have him die in some stupid way.... oh and I hear he's pansexual now?

Luke had a Jedi Order going until Kylo ruined it.  Leia was doing good as a politician and general.  Han went back to old habits after Kylo left.  Umm it wasn't 30 years.  Did you see how old Kylo was in the flashback?  He's still played by Adam Driver, so he was still an adult or at least late teens there.  Well that was the whole thing... Kylo turning ruined everyone's lives.  And like I said, the trilogy shows what happens when the good guys are in charge, and it showed that things don't always go perfectly.  The pansexual thing is a nothing burger.  Going by Star Wars standards, it just means you're attracted to someone outside your species, which means most everyone in Star Wars is pansexual.  All it means is Lando will fuck a droid or anything else that turns him on.   

Luke doesn't want to help and didn't want anyone to find him.... but left a map so people could find him.

He... didn't leave a map.  That old guy had part of a map and gives it to Poe.  Kylo says they got the other part from the Imperial archives.  R2 accesses the entire Imperial network on the Death Star which is how he got that same part of the map as the First Order.  He was in sleep mode all those years looking for it.  They put the map together and HOPED that's where Luke went.  So no, he didn't leave a map.  And if he did, why would he split it apart like that?

And the big fail that ruins the entire concept of Star Wars... the hyperdrive suicide attack. Hyperdrive doesn't work like that. Because of that stupidity, there would be no reason to ever build a big ship. Or a Death Star. Because you could just kill them with a smaller ship by pointing it at it and sending it into hyperdrive. So the entire concept of space fighting in Star Wars is just ruined. Any time you see a big ship you'll just be thinking..... well why don't they just one shot it like that one lady did that time?

But it does?  In Star Wars, Han says if you fly near any object your ship will get destroyed.  So yeah, hyperspace is used as a cheat to get around going faster than light, but you are still affected by real objects in the normal universe.  Either way, it appeared to me that the ship was accelerating to light speed but hadn't made it to hyperspace then they collided.  Waste of resources factions like the Rebellion and Resistance don't have, nor would they just plain resort to kamikaze for the lulz.  No indication they would do that as a culture, as Top_Gun said.  And the destructive level isn't nearly as high as it would be if Star Wars used real science.  Going by what we saw, the Death Star would be fine, and most other large ships.  By the way, Anakin messed with the controls of a Separatist starship in Clone Wars and made it hyperspace into a moon, so no, this isn't new.

Basically it wasn't just a bad movie like say... The Phantom Menace. This was a franchise killer. 

It's a franchise killer when half the shit you're complaining about is from TFA?  And it grossed 1.3 billion?  Top selling blu-ray and DVD of 2018?  Think it's safe to say you're in the minority here and the franchise is just fine. 

Also, people were very upset with the prequels.  They spent their whole lives imagining what those movies could be, and when they didn't live up to their ridiculously built up expectations and the movies they wrote in their heads, they flipped the fuck out.  It's the same case here.  IT DIDN'T GO THE WAY THAT YOU THOUGHT.  And don't you think it's worse to have "ruined" Anakin's back story than whatever comes afterward?  It's easier to ignore the sequels than it is the prequels, especially since those were 100% George Lucas's vision, and these are made by other people.  Now, Phantom Menace and Clones are definitely the worst Star Wars movies, but I can't bring myself to hate them.  They still have redeeming qualities.  Revenge of the Sith I think is a peer with the original trilogy, though.  Still, it can be argued that Lucas "ruined" some things, like Anakin's relationship with Uncle Owen, and his back story.  It's pretty obvious going by the old movies that Anakin grew up on Tattooine with Owen and was possibly even his blood relation brother, not some step-brother he met like once for a few days.  As Obi-wan describes it, Anakin goes off to fight in the Clone Wars, which Owen felt he shouldn't have gotten involved.  When Obi-wan describes first meeting Anakin who was already a great pilot, I sure as heck wasn't thinking he met him as a kid who was doing pod racing.  There's tons of other stuff like that.

And if you've looked into anything involving Lucas's sequel plans, and what he's said, that TFA is a movie fans would like, that people would probably hate his sequels... these were never going to be the movies you imagined.

And you were ok with all of that and LOVED it? That's why I had a little trouble believing my eyes on that one. If you weren't familiar with Star Wars at all and saw it I can see why people might like it, it's a beautiful looking movie. But you're familiar with Star Wars yeah? And you still liked it? That's just baffling to me.

I've been a Star Wars fan all my life.  I wasn't old enough to see it when it first came out, but I have no memory of never not knowing Star Wars, seeing the original trilogy for the first time and not knowing what would happen, it's like the Force for Rey, as Maz described... it's always been there, lol.  I've got a bunch of the old games and books, some comics, collected to the toys for years.  So yeah I've been a big Star Wars fan all my life and I loved the movie.

There's also the fact that Rian Johnson admitted that he just tossed out all the notes given to him from the previous director so there's absolutely zero coherence between the first two films of this trilogy.

And he asked for notes from JJ and JJ said his script was fine as is and even said he wished he could direct the movie himself because of how good it was.  So clearly JJ was fine with it and thought Rian's story was better than whatever he had in mind.  And I don't know what movies you were watching if you thought there was zero coherence.

Edited September 9, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

11 hours ago, Daos said:

Uhhh kinda? People hate that character. Is it on the same scale as Jar Jar? Probably not. They basically forced her off social media with months of harassment.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-rose-tico-defense/

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/kelly-marie-tran-talks-online-bullying-i-dont-know-ill-ever-go-back-watch-1140108

Fans drove Adam Best to nearly commit suicide, drove Jake Lloyd to literal madness and ruined his life, drove Lucas to lose all enthusiasm for Star Wars and sell the franchise off, cause Daisey Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran to delete their social media accounts and go off the grid... there's real piles of shit amongst Star Wars fans.

Edited September 9, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

10 hours ago, Jman said:

Lucas minimized Jar Jar’s presence and played up his annoyance in-universe which helped rehabilitate the character somewhat.  The people behind Rose are doubling down.

You say that like it's a good thing!  Whiny fanboys screwed us out of getting Darth Jar Jar!

[ben0119]

13 hours ago, Jman said:

From what I understand that’s the plan.  Because everyone who disagrees is a Nazi.

Unless she dies in the first five minutes I don’t care.  I remember reading the damn Thrawn trilogy, being excited, but nope, don’t care.  Won’t spend another cent on this franchise.

Sure you won't.

13 hours ago, Daos said:

I didn't see 8 in theaters because 7 was kind of lackluster to me, I just ended up seeing it after all the crazy things people kept saying about it. I figured they were just exaggerating like people always do. They weren't.

The Han Solo movie came out right after Jedi, and was the first Star Wars movie to ever lose money. Supposedly they're in panic mode now and shelved a bunch of their future one off movies.... if you believe the rumor mill.

It lost money because it came out just 6 months after The Last Jedi, when people are used to December and Star Wars once a year, and went up against Infinity War, Deadpool 2 and a bunch of other competition, and was poorly advertised.  Supposedly Lucasfilm even asked to delay the movie until December but Disney refused.  Lucasfilm didn't announce any movies that were said to have been canceled and hasn't announced anything was being canceled.

I think some people probably just weren't interested in the movie as a concept, either.

[ben0119]

On 9/7/2018 at 7:06 PM, Daos said:

That's another thing, Poe gets treated like shit in that movie. The guy destroyed Starkiller Base like 5 minutes ago. Imagine if everyone started being an asshole to Luke in Empire Strikes back.

But after that he got their entire bomber squadron killed in his asinine attack on that dreadnought, disobeying orders, to do it.

[PokeNirvash]

7 hours ago, HardcoreHunter said:

I think they actually had to go back and change some of the stuff in My girlfriends a Gal because of the backlash on it. I don't think they did the same for prison school though.

Actually it's the other way around.

[Jman]

Didn’t watch Solo.  

There’s a time to let go and move on.  That time is now.

[Daos]

Oh geeze Ben, Mark Hamil changed his mind after the movie came out? You don't really believe that do you?

Luke just "thought" about killing his nephew? He was in his room with a lightsaber switched on. Killing an innocent child is in no way similar to killing Vader, murderer of billions and scourge of the Universe.

The Leia Poppins scene as people refer to it, was awful. Leia wasn't shown to be particularly strong in the force and had zero training her entire life. In her entire life through many life threatening situations she never showed the capacity for an ability like that. Also if you get blown into space by a massive explosion, you die. Also if you're in space without a spacesuit for 15 seconds, you die.

Also, Legendary War Hero Admiral Ackbar gets obliterated to make way for a terrible character. None of the Rebellion really seems to care.

Anakin was the chosen one, and couldn't do anything without training except fly stuff really well. If you want to argue she's not a Mary Sue... good luck there. 

She can't act. She doesn't even like her own acting. She thinks she did bad in the first film. JJ Abrams called her acting "wooden." Her entire purpose is to be a self insert character like Kristen Stewart in Twilight.

It was obvious Finn wasn't going to do any damage with his last ditch attack? You're really reaching here. How did Rose suddenly catch up to him btw? He was going max speed in a straight line? Power of love?

Weaponized hyperspace is ridiculous, and completely destroys the concept of all space combat in Star Wars. Ships don't interact with each other in hyperspace. I have no idea what you're talking about or what Clone Wars series you're talking about since i kinda lost interest after the prequels, but gravity wells pull ships out of hyperspace, not because ships have a "failsafe" that they can "turn off." Otherwise the entire concept of Interdictor star destroyers would have been pretty stupid, since you could toggle your safety off and jump out. Given that someone just wrecked a ship 8 times bigger than a Super Star destroyer and 6 other star destroyers with some cruiser, everyone in the galaxy would be using this tactic, even if they somehow hadn't thought of it for the last 4000 years which is also ridiculous.

Hey so the First Order just lost Starkiller base and a ridiculous number of personnel, how exactly did they suddenly take over the galaxy? Snoke must have been a hell of a money manager with his force powers helping, because he's somehow able to produce bigger superweapons AND bigger ships than the empire despite having almost no territory? The Force Awakens literally just happened, now the First Order rules the galaxy? It's been a day.

So no, you can't destroy the New Republic undo the last 30 years and suddenly elevate some tiny faction to having control of the galaxy out of nowhere just so you can redo the whole Rebellion thing with our cast as the plucky underequipped underdogs who I have a feeling are going to score an improbable victory against the First Order in the final movie.

I know Marvel movies make a lot of money and have tons of jokey stuff constantly, but Star Wars isn't Marvel. It doesn't work nearly as well here.

Long story short, JJ Abrams movie wasn't very good, but Rian's was bad enough to wreck the franchise.

TFA made 936 mil domestic,

TLJ made 619 and dropped 65 percent it's second week. It also has the worst fan reviews of any Star Wars movie ever. The Phantom menace beats it by 13 points. In fact, most of the horrible Transformer movie sequels beat it. That horrible new Jurassic World sequel beats it.

Solo made 213 mil and lost Disney money because it came out right after fans were pissed about TLJ. Not because of Fatigue. Marvel releases like 5 movies a year, never been a problem for them.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Daos

[Daos]

He... didn't leave a map.  That old guy had part of a map and gives it to Poe.  Kylo says they got the other part from the Imperial archives.  R2 accesses the entire Imperial network on the Death Star which is how he got that same part of the map as the First Order.  He was in sleep mode all those years looking for it.  They put the map together and HOPED that's where Luke went.  So no, he didn't leave a map.  And if he did, why would he split it apart like that?

Really ......tell me more. Or no..... don't because you're wrong.

The map to Skywalker was a holographic star map of part of the galaxy that showed the location of the first Jedi Temple on Ahch-To, where Luke Skywalker was hiding in exile.[1] Kylo Ren described it as a transgalactic navigational chart.[2]

During their conflict with the Resistance, the First Orderrecovered part of the map from the Archives of the Empire,[1]while Lor San Tekka was given a portion of the map by Skywalker. Skywalker's droid, R2-D2, also received a portion of the map from his master, then went into low-power mode to protect the data. It was impossible to distinguish where the map led without both portions. [3]

[ben0119]

Are you calling him a liar?  Mark couldn't have watched the movie and changed his mind?

Yes, he turned on the lightsaber, but he didn't swing it, and instantly regretted it.  Are you going by Kylo's version of events instead of the truth?  He wasn't a child.  He was in his 20s.  And again, like I said, acting with anger and impulsively, he's done it before.  He foresaw that Kylo could be even worse than Vader.

She was able to talk to Luke in Empire.  How do you know she hasn't trained?  Either way, she should have just as much potential in the Force as Luke, and she used it to save her life, and I think this situation was worse than any other spot she's been in.  I look at it like when people get an adrenaline rush and lift a car off their child.  All she did was pull herself through space, where there's no gravity.  Maybe the Force even helped her to survive.  Real science has applied to Star Wars since when?  How do the aerodynamic nightmares of fighters maneuver in atmosphere and why do they bank to make turns in space?  We can play this game all day.

They mentioned his death.  It was part of how the Resistance was getting bodied in this movie.  They lost all their leaders in that room besides Leia, and by the end of the movie everyone can fit on the Falcon.  Also I don't think Ackbar matters nearly as much to casuals as he does to us.

So you aren't going to address anything I said.  And you know the Chosen One thing was a retcon, right?  You obviously don't understand how the Force works. http://archive.is/qjaZT

I haven't heard any of this at all. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/star-wars-the-force-awakens/daisy-ridley-jj-abrams-interview/

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11554498

Yeah, so it was on her first day.  After that things smoothed over.  She doesn't say she doesn't like her own acting, either.  Way to take something and take it out of context.  And I don't know why there isn't a link to the actual original interview, because I'd like to read that to get even greater context.

I think Daisy Ridley did fine, in any case.  And you really think Luke wasn't meant to be relatable, or "self-insert," as you like to say?  Most of the acting, including Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher's, was terrible in the original trilogy, though.

The speeders were falling apart just from using them and they didn't make any headway in their attack, and then his guns melted just from the targeting beam.  It's pretty obvious it wasn't going to be effective.  Hard to say since we didn't see her path leading up to that point.  I could argue the trajectory of the A-wing in Jedi doesn't make much sense, either.  Or the TIE colliding with Vader in the trench.

So you didn't see the first Star Wars?

And here's the Clone Wars scene -

That's a shame, Clone Wars was a great series.  If ships don't interact with each other in Hyperspace, then why do they have to worry about flying in formation?  They'd just pass through each other if that was the case, right?  Why are you ignoring the thing I said about accelerating to lightspeed but not actually making it to hyperspace?  That's what likely happened.  Holdo set the controls and timed it that way.  Even with your theory of how Hyperspace works, that still floats the whole "WELL WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE ALWAYS DO THIS LOL."  The reason is resources and money.  Do you think it would be productive for the Rebellion to try to kamikaze the effectively infinite number of Star Destroyers the Empire had?  25,000, I think it was?  And hundreds of thousands if not millions of smaller capital ships?  You might as well ask why every military of the world doesn't just ram their vehicles into each other.

Did you see Snoke's gold robes and his throne room?  He's rich! They were hiding out in the Unknown Regions.  We don't know how much territory, ships, or resources they have.  It's likely not as much as the Empire but obviously enough to conquer the galaxy in the state that it's in.  And Rey says it would take weeks for them to take over the major systems, not the whole galaxy in one day.

According to the new books and such (if you're going to run to them, then so am I,) Mon Mothma had the New Republic demilitarized and wanted planets to have their own defense forces, to not risk another Empire happening.  So most of what they had was at Hosnian Prime.  And the reason they made the story similar to the original trilogy, and also why Lucasfilm has been avoiding the prequel era like the plague, is because of all the bitching over them.  So fanboys only have themselves to thank for this.  Not saying that justifies it, but that's their reasoning.

Different strokes, I guess.  I thought the jokes were funny.  I mean Star Wars always had comedy.

Fine logic there, lol.

TFA was the first movie in 10 years and bringing back the original cast, the hype level was off the charts, maybe even more than for Phantom Menace.  Nothing was doing to do as well as TFA.  Even then, TLJ had more competition.  But, everyone is buying tons of TLJ blu-rays and DVDs because they hated it so much, right?

https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/18/16792184/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-review-bomb

It has the worst fan rewiews, according to who?  Rotten Tomatoes, which can be easily gamed and spammed, and people have admitted to doing this to the TLJ score.

https://www.starwars.com/news/poll-what-is-your-favorite-star-wars-movie

On StarWars.com it was voted everyone's third favorite Star Wars movie with 14% of votes, after Empire with 41%, RotS with 21%.  

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527336

Imdb has 7/10 stars.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/curiosity/viewers-loved-the-last-jedi-and-its-a-good-sign-for-star-wars-future/

It gets good reviews from SurveyMonkey and an A from CinemaScore.  Both of these were talking to actual people who saw the movie.  Far more reliable than Rotten Tomatoes.

Marvel isn't Star Wars.  Star Wars movies were previously infrequent.  One every three years, and a decade or more between trilogies.  People are just getting used to one a year, much less multiple.  You're also ignoring the thing I said about competition and poor advertising.  Then there's the fact that people were saying they didn't want this movie and weren't interested in young Han not played by Ford.  Funny thing is, it's very much a fan service movie and people who hated Last Jedi would probably like it.

Edited September 11, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 9/9/2018 at 10:20 PM, Daos said:

He... didn't leave a map.  That old guy had part of a map and gives it to Poe.  Kylo says they got the other part from the Imperial archives.  R2 accesses the entire Imperial network on the Death Star which is how he got that same part of the map as the First Order.  He was in sleep mode all those years looking for it.  They put the map together and HOPED that's where Luke went.  So no, he didn't leave a map.  And if he did, why would he split it apart like that?

Really ......tell me more. Or no..... don't because you're wrong.

The map to Skywalker was a holographic star map of part of the galaxy that showed the location of the first Jedi Temple on Ahch-To, where Luke Skywalker was hiding in exile.[1] Kylo Ren described it as a transgalactic navigational chart.[2]

During their conflict with the Resistance, the First Orderrecovered part of the map from the Archives of the Empire,[1]while Lor San Tekka was given a portion of the map by Skywalker. Skywalker's droid, R2-D2, also received a portion of the map from his master, then went into low-power mode to protect the data. It was impossible to distinguish where the map led without both portions. [3]

No, I'm not.  Believe it or not, not even Wookieepedia is infallible.  R2-D2 got the map from the Death Star, according to canon reference books.  JJ confirms this -

https://ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj-abrams-answers-burning-question-about-r2-d2-star-wars-force-awakens/

And it's never said in the movies that Luke left the map.  The map was to the first Jedi Temple.

Edited September 11, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 9/9/2018 at 10:02 AM, Jman said:

Didn’t watch Solo.  

There’s a time to let go and move on.  That time is now.

Funny thing is, Solo is very much a fan service movie, so people who hated The Last Jedi would probably love Solo.

Says the guy who randomly bitches about anime series he hates years after the fact.  I hope Demarco co-funds an adaptation of the second Moribito novel. =3

[Jman]

2 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Funny thing is, Solo is very much a fan service movie, so people who hated The Last Jedi would probably love Solo.

Says the guy who randomly bitches about anime series he hates years after the fact.  I hope Demarco co-funds an adaptation of the second Moribito novel. =3

Sure if he wants to piss his money down the toilet.

[PokeNirvash]

1 hour ago, Jman said:

Sure if he wants to piss his money down the toilet.

Didn't he already do that with FLCL Progressive?

[CaptainStarwind]

Well, this thread...turned.  It was a fun read though

For what it's worth,

I thought TLJ was passable when it came out, but my opinion of it has lessened since that time.  Not to the point that it'll dissuade me from seeing Episode IX, but definitely to the point that I dont consider the sequel trilogy canon.  What they did with Luke's character REALLY soured me on the movie (I truly don't believe Luke would have bared his lightsaber against a defenseless Kylo Ren, not even for a minute), but disregarding that, the plot seemed all over the place.  I also don't believe that, despite what the movie would have you believe, Poe was in the wrong for trying to start a mutiny, given that the commander was giving no indication whatsoever that she was going to do anything.  Was he just supposed to take Leia's word that she was trustworthy and knew what to do?  No, he definitely did the right thing there.  Kylo Ren's character development also sucked.  TFA showed him to be Darth Vader wannabe, for lack of a better term, but by the end of the movie he looked like he was going to come into his own as a villain.  TLJ pretty much jettisoned that and made him look barely competent by the end.  Am I really supposed to think of him as a villain when I can barely think of him as a threat?

So yeah, that's my thoughts about it.  If you have problems with them, that really sucks, because I don't give a shit.  This will be my first and only word on it.

[Daos]

15 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Funny thing is, Solo is very much a fan service movie, so people who hated The Last Jedi would probably love Solo.

Says the guy who randomly bitches about anime series he hates years after the fact.  I hope Demarco co-funds an adaptation of the second Moribito novel. =3

Yes, Mark Hamil was lying when he said he liked it. That's what you do when you're promoting a movie. The stars of the last Fantastic 4 movie had to go out and tell us all how wonderful it was even though they probably knew it was awful. It's normal. I'm only amazed they didn't talk to him about his behavior earlier, he was trashing it for months.

Uh Ben in that video it looks like Grevious goes into hyperspace. The ship that crashes into the planet... clearly not in hyperspace.

Visual Encyclopedia 

This is what happens when you have no idea what you're doing. Did he leave a map? Did he not leave a map? Sounds like they tried to retcon it after the Last Jedi because Luke was all "nahhhh I'm just here to die."

Star Wars had SOME sparse comedy, it wasn't this jokey jokefest with people doing schtick to the enemy commanders. Tell Kylo to put his shirt on! You go girl!

What would you even do in the third episode for this trilogy? You don't even have an antagonist now. What are they going to do use Kylo? He has zero cred a villain.

Yeah a military would never try ramming one vehicle into another, that's stupid. I mean except when Japan sank like 30 of our ships in WW2. Now Imagine they could have just hit a button and instantly crashed into a ship from 100 miles away at a speed so fast that it literally cut the ship in half. But nah that wouldn't have been a game changer at all huh?

A poll on Star Wars.com... owned by Disney. You're not even trying. OOO I can read an article on "the music behind the completely absorbing World "of the Han Solo Story!

https://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/cinemascore-worthless/

I could go on and on about this movie, the stupid bombing scene, Holdo not telling Poe the plan for.... reasons..... which causes a mutiny..... but I'll stop =P

Seriously I kinda get the feeling that Luke could have masturbated while Force Choking himself and you'd tell me how it was totally consistent with his character while at the same time subverting my expectations.

[naraku360]

This thread is now about writing dissertations about what ruined Star Wars.

[EmpressAngel]

That moment at the end of Return of the Jedi where Luke looks over and sees all the Force ghosts but the updated edition went in and slapped Hayden Christensen over actual Anakin.

Lucas can fucking blow me for that.

[Daos]

22 minutes ago, EmpressAngel said:

That moment at the end of Return of the Jedi where Luke looks over and sees all the Force ghosts but the updated edition went in and slapped Hayden Christensen over actual Anakin.

Lucas can fucking blow me for that.

Lucas couldn't stop him, he had the high ground.

[mochi]

this thread certainly went way fucking off course

[Blatch]

Do we really need to mention that again?

In conclusion... who cares if there's an AnimeGate.

[Jman]

2 hours ago, mochi said:

this thread certainly went way fucking off course

For the better I would argue.