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Dragonball Super rerun Discussuon 7-19-20


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I'm late on that discussion but I think I agree that GT is better than Super.  GT may not have some of the highs of Super, but it certainly doesn't have its lows.  It is a pretty solid what-if sequel to DB/Z and did some creative things like using the idea of the Tuffles for a villain, and how Super Saiyan 4 comes about.  Yes most of the characters are more in character, except for Trunks, who acts like a total goof and his hair isn't even the right color.  Which is why I always liked to joke that he is an android doppelganger.  It was a good combination of classic Dragon Ball comedy and adventure and Dragon Ball Z's seriousness, higher stakes, and sci-fi elements.  I do agree and wish that Pan got to go Super Saiyan.  But both shows make the mistake of not making the story more about the next generation.

Super has some epic fights and good concepts.  I liked the idea of all these other universes but they are glazed over and just throwing them all into this battle royale with little build up is lazy.  Finally having female Super Saiyans was great but I wish they were built up more beforehand.  The art and animation finally gets decent later on.  Trunks and Mai are a horrible pairing and the ending to that saga was horribly done.  The concept of Destroyers makes no sense, especially after Old Kai said whatzisface had no reason or logic to his actions.  It made it seem as if he wasn't a legitimate God of any kind.  Then Grand Zeno is a psychopath which makes even less sense when Kami, King Kai, Supreme Kai etc were all benevolent guardians.  Though again there are some characters, moments, and fights that I like.  The episodes like Goku going shopping or Piccolo baby-sitting are hilarious.  Seeing these super powered people doing every day things is priceless.  But there is a lot of bad art and animation, too much fluff and padding (and no excuse for it since it's not adapting from manga,) Goku out of character, etc.  I might even say there is more bad and meh than good.

Super is not canon.  I don't care what Toei or Toriyama say.  The original series was a manga as written and drawn from start to finish by Toriyama himself and adapted into an anime.  Super is an anime first with nebulous involvement by Toriyama.  And Toriyama himself, does not understand the characterization of his own characters anymore, or is retconning them for no good reason.  Goku was never basically a sociopath like Toriyama claims.  That is going against stuff he himself originally wrote.

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On 10/4/2020 at 6:08 AM, ben0119 said:

I'm late on that discussion but I think I agree that GT is better than Super.  GT may not have some of the highs of Super, but it certainly doesn't have its lows.  It is a pretty solid what-if sequel to DB/Z and did some creative things like using the idea of the Tuffles for a villain, and how Super Saiyan 4 comes about.  Yes most of the characters are more in character, except for Trunks, who acts like a total goof and his hair isn't even the right color.  Which is why I always liked to joke that he is an android doppelganger.  It was a good combination of classic Dragon Ball comedy and adventure and Dragon Ball Z's seriousness, higher stakes, and sci-fi elements.  I do agree and wish that Pan got to go Super Saiyan.  But both shows make the mistake of not making the story more about the next generation.

Super has some epic fights and good concepts.  I liked the idea of all these other universes but they are glazed over and just throwing them all into this battle royale with little build up is lazy.  Finally having female Super Saiyans was great but I wish they were built up more beforehand.  The art and animation finally gets decent later on.  Trunks and Mai are a horrible pairing and the ending to that saga was horribly done.  The concept of Destroyers makes no sense, especially after Old Kai said whatzisface had no reason or logic to his actions.  It made it seem as if he wasn't a legitimate God of any kind.  Then Grand Zeno is a psychopath which makes even less sense when Kami, King Kai, Supreme Kai etc were all benevolent guardians.  Though again there are some characters, moments, and fights that I like.  The episodes like Goku going shopping or Piccolo baby-sitting are hilarious.  Seeing these super powered people doing every day things is priceless.  But there is a lot of bad art and animation, too much fluff and padding (and no excuse for it since it's not adapting from manga,) Goku out of character, etc.  I might even say there is more bad and meh than good.

Super is not canon.  I don't care what Toei or Toriyama say.  The original series was a manga as written and drawn from start to finish by Toriyama himself and adapted into an anime.  Super is an anime first with nebulous involvement by Toriyama.  And Toriyama himself, does not understand the characterization of his own characters anymore, or is retconning them for no good reason.  Goku was never basically a sociopath like Toriyama claims.  That is going against stuff he himself originally wrote.

I like super more than GT, but I agree that Toriyama can't remember jack shit about his series. Toriyama did try to pass the series onto Gohan in the past, but sales dipped and editors told him to bring Goku back. At this point if we would need a spin-off if we wanted the younger characters to do something. Goten, Trunks, Pan, Maron, Bra, Mai, Shu, Pilaf are more than enough to make a cast with. As for the goku black arc I hated the lack of commitment to it. I was hype to see an evil goku...nope it's just a version of a kai that he wished was as strong as Goku and looked like Goku... Then it got so convoluted that Goku just summons Zeno to erase everything.  I think its due to Toriyama going with usually the worst routes for stories to go in is why DBZ above many other series is the most popular for "what if" "Alternate universe stories".  They were so popular that even the video games would often use stuff from them. 

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18 hours ago, HardcoreHunter said:

I like super more than GT, but I agree that Toriyama can't remember jack shit about his series. Toriyama did try to pass the series onto Gohan in the past, but sales dipped and editors told him to bring Goku back. At this point if we would need a spin-off if we wanted the younger characters to do something. Goten, Trunks, Pan, Maron, Bra, Mai, Shu, Pilaf are more than enough to make a cast with. As for the goku black arc I hated the lack of commitment to it. I was hype to see an evil goku...nope it's just a version of a kai that he wished was as strong as Goku and looked like Goku... Then it got so convoluted that Goku just summons Zeno to erase everything.  I think its due to Toriyama going with usually the worst routes for stories to go in is why DBZ above many other series is the most popular for "what if" "Alternate universe stories".  They were so popular that even the video games would often use stuff from them. 

GT had better pacing.  Like I said, while it didn't have some of the highs of Super, it certainly didn't have its lows.  Like, the inferior redoing of the Beerus and Frieza movies just was not necessary, for one.  Yeah I wanted an actual evil Goku.  Goku from an alternate dimension, presumably.  Not what he ended up being, which was lame.  And yeah, then we just have Zeno erase him.  Anticlimactic!  So that is why things switched from Gohan taking over, eh?  Yes a show on the next generation should happen.  Spin-off or sequel or whatever you want to call it.  Z didn't commit to that, and neither did GT, or Super.  GT still did better with that than Super did, though.  Haha, have they?  That's funny.  Yeah I've seen ton of that stuff around.  I remember it from years ago in old magazines and fan sites.  Dragon Ball After Future and Super Saiyan 5 lol.

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6 hours ago, ben0119 said:

GT had better pacing.  Like I said, while it didn't have some of the highs of Super, it certainly didn't have its lows.  Like, the inferior redoing of the Beerus and Frieza movies just was not necessary, for one.  Yeah I wanted an actual evil Goku.  Goku from an alternate dimension, presumably.  Not what he ended up being, which was lame.  And yeah, then we just have Zeno erase him.  Anticlimactic!  So that is why things switched from Gohan taking over, eh?  Yes a show on the next generation should happen.  Spin-off or sequel or whatever you want to call it.  Z didn't commit to that, and neither did GT, or Super.  GT still did better with that than Super did, though.  Haha, have they?  That's funny.  Yeah I've seen ton of that stuff around.  I remember it from years ago in old magazines and fan sites.  Dragon Ball After Future and Super Saiyan 5 lol.

 

GTs pacing feels worse to me. The planets all kinda blend together, probably because nearly every alien race has that weird cyber-punk look to them. Weird that they introduced all those races in the other world tournament, never see any of their home worlds. The guy who was behind GT and all the cyber punk junk ended up doing the designs for that mecha universe. 

Yeah I don't really get why they decided to remake the two super films for the series. Its going to be really annoying if they remake the broly movie; it's like just expect that people watched the damn film! 

Toriyama wanted the arc to be a lot more slice of life. Gohan was going to be a masked super hero and just effortlessly crime fight while trying to keep his secret identity. Sales started to dip so the editor got on him, so Toriyama does what Toriyama does and made a pink fat villain that has tantrums and acts like a child; and kinda looks like his editorShenlongTimes1-3.jpg.942ab736471235ddcb02864ecbe7e349.jpg
The editor got pissy about it so buu got transformations. The only reason Toriyama brought fat buu back was to spite his editor, which as with many things that he has done out of spite, he later regrets because he dislikes the character. A similar situation can be seen when an editor back when he was working on Dragonball told him to have Bulma end up with Goku. The same editor also had him force a pairing in Dr.Slump so he fought against it and had Goku end up with Chichi which he regretted as he dislikes her character. That editor was also used as the inspiration for King Piccolo's look. 

Either way the series Jaco Galactic Patrolman is pretty much Toriyama doing what he wanted to do with Gohan before he was told to return to status quo. Just a slice of life hero that does lame poses. 
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Yeah the games at least in the past did a lot of AU stuff. One that stands out is where Spike the devilman from DB has to fight Frieza who gets to earth before Goku or Trunks. He has an attack that will make anyone who has evil in their heart die instantly when hit by it. 

 

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1 minute ago, AnimationFan14 said:

Vegeta being a great father, while Piccolo also continues to be a great dad to Gohan. 

It's great fathers night 

Goku excluded

 

also fuck this series with something hard and Sandpapery >_> even GT was better than Super

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