It's February 2015 All Over Again

[ben0119]

On 2/9/2020 at 4:15 PM, Sketch said:

They got Food Wars more than half a year ago. They definitely were not considering scaling down at the time. The same week they added Gundam The Origin so both HxH and TPN would be replaced. Then soon after they brought in gen:LOCK, Fire Force and Dr. Stone and pushed Lupin to 3:30am to fit them. Then continued packing the lineup to the point they chose to drop Boruto just to be able to air JoJo at 2:30am.

There’s no question that Food Wars was added to replace HxH as a long runner with the expectation that programming would want them maintain around 8 premieres.

Given Jason’s preference for a smaller block, programming decides how long Toonami should be. They decided to extend to 6 hours with no encores and then 6.5 hours, they decided to retract to 3.5, they decided to move up to 11:30 and then back to midnight, they decided to add 11:30 and then 11 and add more time on the back here and there, they decided to start the block at 10:30 and then 10:00 and then 9:00 before moving back to 11:00 and now cutting down to 3.5 hours again. They change shit on a whim and try all manner of things including the occasional anime in the 8pm hour.

Given the time slot dilemma, I kind of hope they take a break between seasons 2 and 3 of Food Wars this year. They might do that even if it means holding off on airing recently dubbed episodes. It’s anyone’s guess how that will pan out, now that Sentai has finally dubbed the 3rd season.

Oh that's right.  Food Wars has been on the block quite a while,  hasn't it?

So what you're saying, is even if Demarco prefers a shorter block, it could still get extended anyway, because programming is in control of that?  And it's happened before, so it can happen again?  I don't know, I guess I can see that, but I have less hopes for a rebound this time.  If we're to believe what Demarco says (and I take what he says with a grain of salt,) Demarco wanted a shorter block because it was getting to be too much trouble to replace all the shows cycling in and out, and programming department went along with him.  If that is the case, I don't see strong chances of further expansion unless it is for originals or "must-haves" they feel they must put on air at the given time, which would probably have to be something on the level of MHA, Attack on Titan, Dragon Ball, One-Punch Man, etc.

Really though, if we are to condense down what Demarco said, it doesn't seem to me that it's about money.  Too expensive and unwieldy, he said.  Even though only recently he claimed that Toonami was pulling its own weight.  It really sounds to me like they just don't want to do the extra work of acquiring more shows and making the bumps for them and whatnot.  So... just laziness.

They should have stopped or taken a break with it, already.  They just went to the second season.  And they had to know the block contraction was happening at that point.  Unless they made a deal for both seasons and absolutely could not back out of the deal.  It also makes me think of some of the stuff ASA would do.  "We agreed to air the show, we didn't say when." *puts show on at 4 in the morning*

[ben0119]

On 2/9/2020 at 4:37 PM, Sketch said:

He makes an interesting analogy.

 

I mean that sounds great said in a vacuum, but he just said the block was getting too unwieldy.  So sounds like he's full of crap.  He just wanted a lighter workload.

[ben0119]

On 2/10/2020 at 2:42 AM, Daos said:

Yeah but did anyone give any warning? That kinda tells you how these guys run things.

Before Toonami permanently got rid of airing movies and halved the block a few years ago, Demarco had been saying things were fine and Toonami was doing great.  I had someone counter me at the time with "when was the last time he said that."  So, if Demarco goes silent and stops saying things are going well, we can take that to mean things aren't going well.  I mean, I don't expect someone to just shit on their own product and say things are doing poorly and not doing well and everything is going to hell, but some warning and a bit more transparency would be nice.  It's kind of hard to trust anything Demarco says anymore.

[Daos]

27 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

Before Toonami permanently got rid of airing movies and halved the block a few years ago, Demarco had been saying things were fine and Toonami was doing great.  I had someone counter me at the time with "when was the last time he said that."  So, if Demarco goes silent and stops saying things are going well, we can take that to mean things aren't going well.  I mean, I don't expect someone to just shit on their own product and say things are doing poorly and not doing well and everything is going to hell, but some warning and a bit more transparency would be nice.  It's kind of hard to trust anything Demarco says anymore.

Yeah I don't have any respect for him because he's exactly like every other spin doctor who claims everything is going wonderfully until the ship is underwater. 

Macy's is closing like 200 stores and clearly going down.... but I'm sure you'll hear nothing but glowing reports about how they're just about to turn things around from their CEO and CFO.

He's just a corporate shill that you can find anywhere in any company in the US, lying for pay.

[Sketch]

1 hour ago, ben0119 said:

Oh that's right.  Food Wars has been on the block quite a while,  hasn't it?

So what you're saying, is even if Demarco prefers a shorter block, it could still get extended anyway, because programming is in control of that?  And it's happened before, so it can happen again?  I don't know, I guess I can see that, but I have less hopes for a rebound this time.  If we're to believe what Demarco says (and I take what he says with a grain of salt,) Demarco wanted a shorter block because it was getting to be too much trouble to replace all the shows cycling in and out, and programming department went along with him.  If that is the case, I don't see strong chances of further expansion unless it is for originals or "must-haves" they feel they must put on air at the given time, which would probably have to be something on the level of MHA, Attack on Titan, Dragon Ball, One-Punch Man, etc.

Really though, if we are to condense down what Demarco said, it doesn't seem to me that it's about money.  Too expensive and unwieldy, he said.  Even though only recently he claimed that Toonami was pulling its own weight.  It really sounds to me like they just don't want to do the extra work of acquiring more shows and making the bumps for them and whatnot.  So... just laziness.

They should have stopped or taken a break with it, already.  They just went to the second season.  And they had to know the block contraction was happening at that point.  Unless they made a deal for both seasons and absolutely could not back out of the deal.  It also makes me think of some of the stuff ASA would do.  "We agreed to air the show, we didn't say when." *puts show on at 4 in the morning*

To be fair, dealing with constantly having to find shows to fill 5 hours without just resorting to reruns is a lot more work than filling 3 hours. Shows can take months to secure so if they are changing one out just about every month they have to plan well in advance and even then often enough things can go wrong. We have no idea how difficult it actually is to get any suitable show much less particular ones that are in high demand. I really can't get behind calling them lazy given everything Jason and Gill juggle at Adult Swim along with weekly Toonami production and working on 6 original series.

[EmpressAngel]

Y'all realize that there are probably restrictions on what he's allowed to say, right? Like, I'm not allowed to walk up to customers and tell them that I can't take vacation time before spring because the department's sales plummet every time someone else gets left in charge and they can't afford that loss until next quarter. He does have a boss to answer to, and they probably don't want him delivering unfiltered bad news to a crowd that, let's be honest, is going to pick apart and criticize every word.

Edited February 16, 2020 by EmpressAngel

[PokeNirvash]

17 minutes ago, EmpressAngel said:

He does have a boss to answer to, and they probably don't want him delivering unfiltered bad news to a crowd that, let's be honest, is going to pick apart and criticize every word.

You say that like people don't pick apart and criticize every word of the good news he delivers. 🙃

[Sketch]

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be proud of every expansion Toonami earns or is granted and also prefer a shorter block due to the exponential amount of additional promotion, packaging and curating work the expansions create.

[ben0119]

Yes, but when DeMarco initially addressed why Fire Force wasn't getting a replacement and why they were losing a timeslot, he said "programming wanted the slot."  Basically acting like it was out of his hands and not his fault, don't yell at me, not his decision etc.  Now he says he, the Toonami staff, and the programming department made this decision together to have a shorter block.  He is full of shit.

[ben0119]

19 hours ago, Sketch said:

To be fair, dealing with constantly having to find shows to fill 5 hours without just resorting to reruns is a lot more work than filling 3 hours. Shows can take months to secure so if they are changing one out just about every month they have to plan well in advance and even then often enough things can go wrong. We have no idea how difficult it actually is to get any suitable show much less particular ones that are in high demand. I really can't get behind calling them lazy given everything Jason and Gill juggle at Adult Swim along with weekly Toonami production and working on 6 original series.

I mean, they had not updated the bumps for the shows for a better part of a year.  Some are still overdue for new bumps.  They used to get updated a lot more often.

With how much DeMarco likes to say something bad that happens isn't part of his job or a decision made wasn't his, it makes you wonder what he actually does do.  Of course any time something good happens he is all to eager to take the credit.

They are producing and in some cases co-producing the shows.  They're basically going - "Here's some money, make some shows."  It's not like they are involved in a hands on basis in the day to day making of these shows.  I mean, hell, do you even think they are making weekly trips to Japan to personally oversee things?  I highly doubt that.

[CountFrylock]

at this point i think it's hard to be positive about any of this despite what demarco may claim

We are seeing a trend of shows on the block that will have sequels/additional seasons which with a shorter block means less variety and that's never a good thing

[PokeNirvash]

56 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

Yes, but when DeMarco initially addressed why Fire Force wasn't getting a replacement and why they were losing a timeslot, he said "programming wanted the slot."  Basically acting like it was out of his hands and not his fault, don't yell at me, not his decision etc.  Now he says he, the Toonami staff, and the programming department made this decision together to have a shorter block.  He is full of shit.

Let's compromise: Programming was behind the first block reduction, Demarco was behind those that followed.

[CountFrylock]

i hope this doesn't mean the originals are our only new content this year with sequels/additional seasons left as the rest

[The1gairon]

2 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Yes, but when DeMarco initially addressed why Fire Force wasn't getting a replacement and why they were losing a timeslot, he said "programming wanted the slot."  Basically acting like it was out of his hands and not his fault, don't yell at me, not his decision etc.  Now he says he, the Toonami staff, and the programming department made this decision together to have a shorter block.  He is full of shit.

1. He DOESN'T have control over the timeslots.

2. What he said about preferring a shorter block does NOT mean he contradicted himself!

[CountFrylock]

2020 doesn't look like it's gonna improve very much for toonami

[Top Gun]

3 hours ago, CountFrylock said:

at this point i think it's hard to be positive about any of this despite what demarco may claim

We are seeing a trend of shows on the block that will have sequels/additional seasons which with a shorter block means less variety and that's never a good thing

Since when is getting more of (generally) very good shows a bad thing for the block?

[CountFrylock]

it's not but at some point it sucks if the only new content we get is just more of the same and there's no surprises on the block

[Sketch]

3 hours ago, ben0119 said:

I mean, they had not updated the bumps for the shows for a better part of a year.  Some are still overdue for new bumps.  They used to get updated a lot more often.

With how much DeMarco likes to say something bad that happens isn't part of his job or a decision made wasn't his, it makes you wonder what he actually does do.  Of course any time something good happens he is all to eager to take the credit.

They are producing and in some cases co-producing the shows.  They're basically going - "Here's some money, make some shows."  It's not like they are involved in a hands on basis in the day to day making of these shows.  I mean, hell, do you even think they are making weekly trips to Japan to personally oversee things?  I highly doubt that.

They can do a lot of production work in Atlanta, it doesn't all have to be in person in Japan but they do take multiple trips to Japan every year. Far from every week or every month though. Make no mistake though, they're not just handing over money and leaving the rest to the Japanese producers. Blade Runner is getting written in the US and I'm sure they're overseeing those scripts.

Jason is Senior Vice President of Adult Swim on-air. He basically oversees all the on-air promotion. If it airs on Adult Swim and it isn't a show, then he made it happen. Bumps, show promos, special advertisements made by Adult Swim are all overseen by Jason. He also coordinates musical talent to be used on Adult Swim and for their music distribution like the singles program. Those are the managerial duties that Jason is actually paid to do. But if you also think putting on even 3 hours of anime a week is so easy that a child could do it, you have no idea the weekly logistics that go into that even when there aren't frequent show rotations.

[Sketch]

2 hours ago, CountFrylock said:

i hope this doesn't mean the originals are our only new content this year with sequels/additional seasons left as the rest

Uzumaki is basically the only original that could air this year. Blade Runner isn't happening this year, the guys directing it are busy with their CGI Ghost in the Shell anime right now. Unless they can actually air something this year that they haven't announced yet, it's Uzumaki (4 episodes) or nothing.

They definitely have two openings this Spring before additional seasons of Fire Force, Dr. Stone, Attack on Titan and MHA are feasible. One might go to Mob season 2 but there's really no telling at this point.

I expect that they'll be willing to add slots on the fly in order to start airing those new seasons whenever they are available. Theoretically that means they'll have a few potential openings unless they just wait for another opening before starting one of those sequel seasons. To air them in a timely manner (which is important) they won't always wait for those sparse openings.

[CountFrylock]

i hope we aren't left waiting until august whatever it maybe

[ben0119]

2 hours ago, elfie said:

1. He DOESN'T have control over the timeslots.

2. What he said about preferring a shorter block does NOT mean he contradicted himself!

Demarco said programming wanted a time slot and that is why a time slot was lost and a show wasn't replaced.  Now he is saying they made the decision together, completely going against what he said before.

[ben0119]

57 minutes ago, Sketch said:

They can do a lot of production work in Atlanta, it doesn't all have to be in person in Japan but they do take multiple trips to Japan every year. Far from every week or every month though. Make no mistake though, they're not just handing over money and leaving the rest to the Japanese producers. Blade Runner is getting written in the US and I'm sure they're overseeing those scripts.

Jason is Senior Vice President of Adult Swim on-air. He basically oversees all the on-air promotion. If it airs on Adult Swim and it isn't a show, then he made it happen. Bumps, show promos, special advertisements made by Adult Swim are all overseen by Jason. He also coordinates musical talent to be used on Adult Swim and for their music distribution like the singles program. Those are the managerial duties that Jason is actually paid to do. But if you also think putting on even 3 hours of anime a week is so easy that a child could do it, you have no idea the weekly logistics that go into that even when there aren't frequent show rotations.

You mean teleconferencing?  Well I hope they aren't writing anything themselves.  We saw how well IGPX turned out.  Actually, FLCL Alternative wasn't written well either, and that was done on the Japan side.

Yes the oh so lovely singles program and music videos they feel the need to foist upon us.  It's a waste of money, time, and resources.  It's an excuse for DeMarco to get his hipster wank on and he manages to get paid for it.  He still has this pinned to his Twitter.

 

I think he'll be okay.

So the sob story of them not getting paid to do Toonami is still canon?  But only recently I read a comment from DeMarco saying, something to the effect, of how Toonami is a lean, well-oiled machine that actually makes money.  Before then the impression was it was a passion project money sink.  But now all of a sudden that's not true and it's too expensive and unwieldy, to the point of having to cut back severely, and also because they don't want to do the work. 

And putting something like Food Wars means less work because it just refreshes itself.  I'm sure DeMarco can't stand that anime has transitioned from the long-running to seasonal model.

Not necessarily saying it's easy.  But I mean, someone else could probably do a better job at this point.  Have some people that are just dedicated to working on Toonami. 

Demarco and co. aren't exactly cutting edge anymore, either.  Trying to recapture lightning in a bottle with more FLCL series is the exact opposite of that.  You know, what creatively bankrupt Hollywood execs will resort to?  Tired and unwanted sequels and remakes or reboots of proven classics.  Now they have become the dinosaurs they used to be a refreshing alternative to.  An "original" series would be an actual original idea.  But, we all saw how great their original idea, IGPX, was...

Uzumaki I will admit sounds unique and different, at least.

[Sketch]

27 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

Demarco said programming wanted a time slot and that is why a time slot was lost and a show wasn't replaced.  Now he is saying they made the decision together, completely going against what he said before.

Both of these things can be true and are not mutually exclusive:

1) Programming wanted to fill the 4AM slot so they took the 4AM slot and now wants 11PM and 3-4AM as well

2) Jason and company were willing to give up the 4AM slot and also willing to trim Toonami down to 3.5 hours and they discussed this with programming when they asked how they felt about giving up some slots

Programming wanted those slots and Jason and company took the opportunity to trim Toonami down out of preference. Ultimately they couldn't say no to programming but in this case they didn't want to say no.

Near as I can figure they were probably expecting to lose 4AM and then 11PM but maybe expected to keep 3-4AM for an hour at least until Neverland finished. That way it would have been a more gradual reduction instead of mostly happening all at once. But programming decided to take 3-4AM as well.

[Sketch]

57 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

You mean teleconferencing?  Well I hope they aren't writing anything themselves.  We saw how well IGPX turned out.  Actually, FLCL Alternative wasn't written well either, and that was done on the Japan side.

Yes the oh so lovely singles program and music videos they feel the need to foist upon us.  It's a waste of money, time, and resources.  It's an excuse for DeMarco to get his hipster wank on and he manages to get paid for it.  He still has this pinned to his Twitter.

 

I think he'll be okay.

So the sob story of them not getting paid to do Toonami is still canon?  But only recently I read a comment from DeMarco saying, something to the effect, of how Toonami is a lean, well-oiled machine that actually makes money.  Before then the impression was it was a passion project money sink.  But now all of a sudden that's not true and it's too expensive and unwieldy, to the point of having to cut back severely, and also because they don't want to do the work. 

And putting something like Food Wars means less work because it just refreshes itself.  I'm sure DeMarco can't stand that anime has transitioned from the long-running to seasonal model.

Not necessarily saying it's easy.  But I mean, someone else could probably do a better job at this point.  Have some people that are just dedicated to working on Toonami. 

Demarco and co. aren't exactly cutting edge anymore, either.  Trying to recapture lightning in a bottle with more FLCL series is the exact opposite of that.  You know, what creatively bankrupt Hollywood execs will resort to?  Tired and unwanted sequels and remakes or reboots of proven classics.  Now they have become the dinosaurs they used to be a refreshing alternative to.  An "original" series would be an actual original idea.  But, we all saw how great their original idea, IGPX, was...

Uzumaki I will admit sounds unique and different, at least.

There's probably some teleconferencing,  but say they're giving input on designs, logos, marketing materials, scripts, etc. they can do plenty of that work at their own office in Atlanta via email.

I happen to like IGPX and FLCL Alternative. Both were competently written and pretty entertaining. FLCL Progressive, much less so but it had some moments. Jason and Gill didn't write those scripts. The only scripts they occasionally write are for promos and Toonami T.I.E.s when they don't use a professional writer for T.I.E.s. Blade Runner scripts are being handled in the US by professional writers.

You may think the singles program is a waste and you're probably not the only one who does but its become a big part of Adult Swim's identity in the industry and like the article says Jason is kind of a big deal in the music industry and Adult Swim with him. The man brought together Run the Jewels, he should be thanked forever for that much.

It's not a sob story and it never was one. Rather it's something that says they actually care a lot about Toonami and are willing to do that work on top of the work they already were doing at Adult Swim for no additional pay. Jason is likely paid plenty well as manager at Adult Swim but the daily operations for Toonami is like extra credit for him and Gill. Steve and Dana get paid for their voice work. CGI animators get paid for their work. Script writers hired for these originals get paid for their work. I would think the video editors are paid for at least the promos for Toonami but the extra things like game reviews and the occasional original music video are probably also extra credit. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are paid salary as opposed to hourly. I really doubt anyone is banking over-time to work on Toonami stuff.

Toonami makes money by attracting unique advertisers with programming that's not as expensive as FOX reruns. When it's about 3 hours it is largely self-sufficient and doesn't need a ton of money to operate outside of licensing shows and the occasional CGI refresh. Part of the reason why it's self-sufficient is because some of the labor is done at no additional cost and without siphoning too much time away from promoting the rest of Adult Swim's programming.

You say someone could probably do a better job and there's probably someone who exists that can do it better but you don't really understand the logistics of the job. You seem to think it's just picking shows out of a huge pile of available ones whenever there's an opening and the rest is basically auto-pilot. You don't seem to realize that not just anyone can negotiate with Japanese companies and US licensors to get shows. Jason has more than 20 years under his belt of working with these companies and building a relationship with them. In the streaming age those sorts of relationships are how he has managed to get shows that would have otherwise been streaming exclusives. That unfortunately doesn't mean he can get just anything he wants because Toonami can get outbid but brings shows to the table. Someone who has been working at Crunchyroll or FUNimation for a while could probably handle those negotiations and potentially get better shows, but not just anyone working in the industry would be capable of doing that.

I'd have to figure back in 2005 as long as CN had enough money to please the licensor they could have gotten basically any kids anime they wanted but things have changed dramatically since then and it's mainly those long standing relationships that keep Toonami in the game now. That and the Japanese companies that prefer to have their shows air on TV even if it's late at night. Considering Toonami has aired something around 40 anime that didn't previously air on Adult Swim since the block came back in 2012, it's reasonable to think they've considered at least 100 or more additional shows over that time frame and we have no idea how many were no-go at the time and if they still are. Even Crunchyroll can't get everything they want anymore. Hell, FUNimation got quite a lot more simulcasts this season than CR did.

I do think they should have an intern whose primary duties should include researching shows for Toonami if for no other reason than to have a younger persons input. That's probably an affordable solution. But the company probably looks at the fact that there are already three people who regularly contemplate which shows should air on Toonami and consider that plenty. I mean in the ASA days it was basically just Manning and sometimes Mike Lazzo. Still, I'd like to see someone else take some of the burden off of those three since they're occupied with lots of other things.

It's an objective lie that nobody wanted more FLCL aside from Adult Swim but it's subjective whether or not they gave FLCL fans something they wanted. A lot more people wanted an ending to Samurai Jack though.

Sequels and reboots are a tired thing that Hollywood does but it's not always without merit. It remains to be seen what the other 4 projects are but I'd like to think at least 2 or 3 aren't sequels, reboots or spin-offs. Then again, who is really gonna complain is Adult Swim co-funds a final season for Bleach or an adaptation of the Trigun Maximum manga? Like I said, not all sequels aren't without merit.

[Sketch]

It's been mused that some day Toonami might be run by Crunchyroll. There's really no telling whether that would be better or worse than what we have now but I'm weary of that happening. CR has a small anime block in Brazil that has aired the likes of ReZero, Black Clover and I think KonoSuba among others. If the block had to rely mostly on CR's licenses and obviously only on the ones that got dubbed... that's not the best catalog honestly. Get ready for Highschool Prodigies Isekai, Bookworm Isekai, Cute Girls Isekai and their crowning achievement Slavery is Fine Isekai aka Rising of the Shield Hero (I don't hate that show or any of those shows BTW). Sure there's ReZero, KonoSuba, Mob Psycho season 2 and gems like Somali and the Forest Spirit but their dub catalog is full of some really mediocre stuff. Toonami is better off occasionally borrowing from that catalog instead of relying on it.

CR probably wouldn't want to cannibalize their streaming numbers either and that's probably a big reason why we haven't seen more of their shows on Toonami yet. Even if they were running Toonami they'd probably still put the streaming service first and I wouldn't expect them not to because it has always been their bread and butter. If you think Toonami feels like simuldub leftovers now hoooo boy it could definitely be worse. If it gets to that point, HBO Max would probably premiere those other four Toonami original series before the block would air them. That said, if it's just one or two rotating slots, Toonami should totally play whatever gems they can get from CR. I just strongly doubt they can have them for free.

 

[PokeNirvash]

4 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Actually, FLCL Progressive wasn't written well either, and that was done on the Japan side.

Fixed.

[Daos]

6 hours ago, ben0119 said:

You mean teleconferencing?  Well I hope they aren't writing anything themselves.  We saw how well IGPX turned out.  Actually, FLCL Alternative wasn't written well either, and that was done on the Japan side.

Yes the oh so lovely singles program and music videos they feel the need to foist upon us.  It's a waste of money, time, and resources.  It's an excuse for DeMarco to get his hipster wank on and he manages to get paid for it.  He still has this pinned to his Twitter.

 

I think he'll be okay.

So the sob story of them not getting paid to do Toonami is still canon?  But only recently I read a comment from DeMarco saying, something to the effect, of how Toonami is a lean, well-oiled machine that actually makes money.  Before then the impression was it was a passion project money sink.  But now all of a sudden that's not true and it's too expensive and unwieldy, to the point of having to cut back severely, and also because they don't want to do the work. 

And putting something like Food Wars means less work because it just refreshes itself.  I'm sure DeMarco can't stand that anime has transitioned from the long-running to seasonal model.

Not necessarily saying it's easy.  But I mean, someone else could probably do a better job at this point.  Have some people that are just dedicated to working on Toonami. 

Demarco and co. aren't exactly cutting edge anymore, either.  Trying to recapture lightning in a bottle with more FLCL series is the exact opposite of that.  You know, what creatively bankrupt Hollywood execs will resort to?  Tired and unwanted sequels and remakes or reboots of proven classics.  Now they have become the dinosaurs they used to be a refreshing alternative to.  An "original" series would be an actual original idea.  But, we all saw how great their original idea, IGPX, was...

Uzumaki I will admit sounds unique and different, at least.

Did he seriously repost that ridiculous quote that no one on earth believes?

[Jman]

So what you’re all saying is DeMarco really is mad he’s no longer the head tastemaker for anime in the US?

You know I joked about it but there may be some truth to the exaggeration.

[Top Gun]

...no one is saying that besides you.

[EmpressAngel]

3 hours ago, Jman said:

So what you’re all saying is DeMarco really is mad he’s no longer the head tastemaker for anime in the US?

Point out literally any other post in this thread that says that.

[PokeNirvash]

1 hour ago, Top Gun said:

...no one is saying that besides you.

Well he is the guy who brought up Paranoia Agent failing in the ratings before admitting that he liked it just as much as the rest of us.

[korosu]

12 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Demarco said programming wanted a time slot and that is why a time slot was lost and a show wasn't replaced.  Now he is saying they made the decision together, completely going against what he said before.

they seldom announce block changes more than a couple weeks out. the schedule for after Fire Force leaves wasn't going to be announced alongside the schedule for when Dr. Stone does. they moved shows up and adult swim took 4 am. programming asked them if they wouldn't mind cutting slots. of course, like i said, they'd yet to announce more cuts were coming so the answer he gave was just for the 4 am cut.

11 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Demarco and co. aren't exactly cutting edge anymore, either.  Trying to recapture lightning in a bottle with more FLCL series is the exact opposite of that.  You know, what creatively bankrupt Hollywood execs will resort to?  Tired and unwanted sequels and remakes or reboots of proven classics.  Now they have become the dinosaurs they used to be a refreshing alternative to.

so you just completely forgot how adult swim always wanted to make more FLCL and have made multiple previous pleas to do so?

[ben0119]

On 2/16/2020 at 3:10 AM, Sketch said:

Both of these things can be true and are not mutually exclusive:

1) Programming wanted to fill the 4AM slot so they took the 4AM slot and now wants 11PM and 3-4AM as well

2) Jason and company were willing to give up the 4AM slot and also willing to trim Toonami down to 3.5 hours and they discussed this with programming when they asked how they felt about giving up some slots

Programming wanted those slots and Jason and company took the opportunity to trim Toonami down out of preference. Ultimately they couldn't say no to programming but in this case they didn't want to say no.

Near as I can figure they were probably expecting to lose 4AM and then 11PM but maybe expected to keep 3-4AM for an hour at least until Neverland finished. That way it would have been a more gradual reduction instead of mostly happening all at once. But programming decided to take 3-4AM as well.

From a certain point of view, eh?  Well that sure would be convenient...

[ben0119]

On 2/16/2020 at 4:15 AM, Sketch said:

There's probably some teleconferencing,  but say they're giving input on designs, logos, marketing materials, scripts, etc. they can do plenty of that work at their own office in Atlanta via email.

I happen to like IGPX and FLCL Alternative. Both were competently written and pretty entertaining. FLCL Progressive, much less so but it had some moments. Jason and Gill didn't write those scripts. The only scripts they occasionally write are for promos and Toonami T.I.E.s when they don't use a professional writer for T.I.E.s. Blade Runner scripts are being handled in the US by professional writers.

You may think the singles program is a waste and you're probably not the only one who does but its become a big part of Adult Swim's identity in the industry and like the article says Jason is kind of a big deal in the music industry and Adult Swim with him. The man brought together Run the Jewels, he should be thanked forever for that much.

It's not a sob story and it never was one. Rather it's something that says they actually care a lot about Toonami and are willing to do that work on top of the work they already were doing at Adult Swim for no additional pay. Jason is likely paid plenty well as manager at Adult Swim but the daily operations for Toonami is like extra credit for him and Gill. Steve and Dana get paid for their voice work. CGI animators get paid for their work. Script writers hired for these originals get paid for their work. I would think the video editors are paid for at least the promos for Toonami but the extra things like game reviews and the occasional original music video are probably also extra credit. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are paid salary as opposed to hourly. I really doubt anyone is banking over-time to work on Toonami stuff.

Toonami makes money by attracting unique advertisers with programming that's not as expensive as FOX reruns. When it's about 3 hours it is largely self-sufficient and doesn't need a ton of money to operate outside of licensing shows and the occasional CGI refresh. Part of the reason why it's self-sufficient is because some of the labor is done at no additional cost and without siphoning too much time away from promoting the rest of Adult Swim's programming.

You say someone could probably do a better job and there's probably someone who exists that can do it better but you don't really understand the logistics of the job. You seem to think it's just picking shows out of a huge pile of available ones whenever there's an opening and the rest is basically auto-pilot. You don't seem to realize that not just anyone can negotiate with Japanese companies and US licensors to get shows. Jason has more than 20 years under his belt of working with these companies and building a relationship with them. In the streaming age those sorts of relationships are how he has managed to get shows that would have otherwise been streaming exclusives. That unfortunately doesn't mean he can get just anything he wants because Toonami can get outbid but brings shows to the table. Someone who has been working at Crunchyroll or FUNimation for a while could probably handle those negotiations and potentially get better shows, but not just anyone working in the industry would be capable of doing that.

I'd have to figure back in 2005 as long as CN had enough money to please the licensor they could have gotten basically any kids anime they wanted but things have changed dramatically since then and it's mainly those long standing relationships that keep Toonami in the game now. That and the Japanese companies that prefer to have their shows air on TV even if it's late at night. Considering Toonami has aired something around 40 anime that didn't previously air on Adult Swim since the block came back in 2012, it's reasonable to think they've considered at least 100 or more additional shows over that time frame and we have no idea how many were no-go at the time and if they still are. Even Crunchyroll can't get everything they want anymore. Hell, FUNimation got quite a lot more simulcasts this season than CR did.

I do think they should have an intern whose primary duties should include researching shows for Toonami if for no other reason than to have a younger persons input. That's probably an affordable solution. But the company probably looks at the fact that there are already three people who regularly contemplate which shows should air on Toonami and consider that plenty. I mean in the ASA days it was basically just Manning and sometimes Mike Lazzo. Still, I'd like to see someone else take some of the burden off of those three since they're occupied with lots of other things.

It's an objective lie that nobody wanted more FLCL aside from Adult Swim but it's subjective whether or not they gave FLCL fans something they wanted. A lot more people wanted an ending to Samurai Jack though.

Sequels and reboots are a tired thing that Hollywood does but it's not always without merit. It remains to be seen what the other 4 projects are but I'd like to think at least 2 or 3 aren't sequels, reboots or spin-offs. Then again, who is really gonna complain is Adult Swim co-funds a final season for Bleach or an adaptation of the Trigun Maximum manga? Like I said, not all sequels aren't without merit.

I don't like the idea of them butting in on the creatives, but then again, Demarco said that Big O Season 2 would have made even less sense without their input.  Of course, I had a lot more trust in what Demarco said back then.  Hard to say how things actually went down now, knowing Demarco's penchant for bullshitting.

Are you crazy?  FLCL Progressive was the much better show.  You could get into the characters and the story more, and every episode had different art style to it, it was actually somewhat innovative and creative, like the original series.  Not as good as the original, of course, but a decent enough spin-off that stands on its own merits.  Alternative screwed up its story and characters, the whole break with the main character and the other girl was not properly built up at all, much less the solution to all of that, and the art style was generic modern anime and nothing very innovative about the series at all.  Then why did Demarco say, about IGPX, that "we tried to make the characters as believable and realistic as possible," something to that effect.  Which is hilarious!  How do the IGPX characters feel so much like real people, exactly?  IGPX happens to be one of the few shows that does not manage to hold my attention.  I can sit through and attentively watch all kinds of anime, even some really shitty ones, but that one just makes me zone out.  I hope they are good, proven sci-fi writers.  I never saw Blade Runner 2049.  People said it was better than the original.  I find that... unlikely.  I had no interest in it and did not think it would be anything to write home about, though maybe I should check it out sometime.  But, this Blade Runner show could end up disastrous if it isn't handled with great care.  I wonder if any of the original crew from the first movie are involved.

Sorry if I don't give a shit about Run the Jewels, or the crappy music Demarco likes or promotes.  And I think you are vastly over-estimating his and Adult Swim's importance in the music industry.  Demarco believes his own hype in this regard, and it seems you do too.

Well that is how they make it come across.  "LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE DOING FOR YOU!  WE DON'T EVEN GET PAID!"  When I'm pretty sure no one was asking them to do work and not get paid for it.  Stuff like that is what gave the impression that Toonami was a labor of love that lost money or barely broke even.  After all, it is well-known that Adult Swim will do things that aren't particularly profitable, just because they want to, whether to do a weird thing, troll, or pursue some endeavor they are passionate about, whatever the reason.  As I understand it, they are salaried employees.  In most cases, they would get additional salary for the Toonami work, but in this case, choose not to.  I'd say Demarco is paid a good $250-300,000 a year easily, or at least six figures.  We saw his house before, and while he didn't exactly give a tour, it's not a mansion, but I wouldn't call it a shack, either.  At the very least, he is living comfortably, and not being worked to the bone.  Either way, it is his choice to take on the work load he has.

But the thing is, Demarco said this when the block was still really long, before all these cuts happened.  So...  And they had not done the CGI refresh for the better part of a year, and still don't update it that often anymore.  And with Demarco making that statement about it being self-sufficient and profitable, gave the impression they are getting paid now.  No mention was made about it being too long, or too expensive and unwieldy, either.

I didn't say anyone could do it, but surely someone already working for Adult Swim, or someone they could hire that has done similar work, like you said, from somewhere like Funimation or Crunchyroll.  Granted, such people may not be given up by companies so easily, or they wouldn't want to move to another company so easily.  What it is, is I think a set of fresh eyes are needed.  Demarco may claim to be a hipster soothsayer when it comes to music, but his anime taste is as basic bitch as it gets.  And in some cases he likes (remember they claim to only air what they like) outright crap shows.  Getting Tokyo Ghoul, getting Akame Ga Kill, getting Food Wars (and renewing it!)  Demarco saying Naruto is one of the best shonens ever made, that quote is going to live in infamy forever.  And you are right that they can't do anything about other companies with bigger wallets outbidding them with brute force.  But still, I don't think the Toonami crew are what they're cracked up to be anymore.  At least the shows recently have been better picks for the most part, but we are losing a bunch of time slots now, so...

I never really paid attention to Crunchyroll, since they were a subs only thing.  But Funimation has been the biggest player by far when it comes to licensing and localizing anime for a long time, so yeah.

Was it John Oliver or Jon Stewart who did a segment on interns and how they should be paid for their work?  I tend to agree with that sentiment.  But yes, they need someone younger, or at least some fresh blood of some sort, because Demarco and the others seem out of touch in a lot of ways now, going back to the well repeatedly, or sometimes just making some outright baffling acquisition choices.  The shows should be chosen even more carefully now that we only have 3 hours to work with.

In all of my years discussing FLCL online, I have not seen one person say they want a sequel to it.  And it was re-aired quite a few times and discussed again each time, and talked about even when it wasn't on the air.  It never even entered the conversation.  I'm sure maybe someone said it somewhere, but it was not a prolific thing at all.  Progressive was a solid enough follow up and there are characters and concepts in that show that I like and I'm glad exist, but Alternative was a sloppy mess.  But neither were on par with the original.  I mean, Samurai Jack was an unfinished story.  And ratings and the buzz and talk it created proves that people wanted more of it.

I want them to co-fund the Bleach finale, but I know it's a pipe dream.  It would take a lot more money to make so many episodes, and there would be a lot, even without the need for filler and padding, since the manga is done.  I guess that makes me a hypocrite? Naw, Bleach is another unfinished story, just like Samurai Jack.  In fact, many people want, if the anime finale were to be made, to have Kubo personally involved and be able to include some things that were left out of the manga.  It doesn't seem like Kubo was able to do the ending he wanted, and Kubo said the decision to end the series was his own, not the editors.  So given how he was doing poorly health wise and discovered he had a fracture in his drawing arm after the manga ended, and made the post about continuing the series despite his health because of a letter he got from a dying boy... it seems he tried to go as far as he could with it, but had to stop due to his health.  So if it never gets animated, even without what I believe are some crucial things left out in the manga, it will be a real shame.  Around the time I first saw Trigun I had no idea what manga was or that many animes were adapted from it, would sometimes stray from those original stories, or add filler, etc.  The Trigun series seemed like such a masterpiece, and a perfect and worthy companion to air beside Cowboy Bebop as ASA often did, that the idea it was adapted from a manga it was unfaithful to seemed unthinkable.  Of course, I have no idea about the story quality of the manga version.  I remember reading a couple things about character fates that don't seem as good as the anime to me, but not sure how accurate those were, and it has been some time since then.  But I suppose that could be interesting to see.  Wasn't the Trigun movie made due to American fan interest?

[ben0119]

On 2/16/2020 at 9:48 AM, Daos said:

Did he seriously repost that ridiculous quote that no one on earth believes?

Yup, like I said he believes his own hype.  And that has been his pinned tweet for a long time now!

[ben0119]

On 2/16/2020 at 7:26 AM, PokeNirvash said:

Fixed.

No, I was right the first time.  Alternative is sloppily written and falls apart as it goes on, and then the ending.  Oof.

[ben0119]

On 2/16/2020 at 3:04 PM, korosu said:

they seldom announce block changes more than a couple weeks out. the schedule for after Fire Force leaves wasn't going to be announced alongside the schedule for when Dr. Stone does. they moved shows up and adult swim took 4 am. programming asked them if they wouldn't mind cutting slots. of course, like i said, they'd yet to announce more cuts were coming so the answer he gave was just for the 4 am cut.

so you just completely forgot how adult swim always wanted to make more FLCL and have made multiple previous pleas to do so?

Well, ASA would announce things months ahead of time, and Toonami has with some things, too.  It's clear this is something they do by choice.  But yes, they way you put it, it's very convenient for Demarco, isn't it?  But he still is full of crap and still knew the cuts were coming, even if he can technically get out of this with "from a certain point of view."

Oh yeah that's right.  Well they were foolish to do that from the very beginning, and I guess I gave them too much credit, then?  I mean, they didn't even care that the new FLCL shows would have no input from anyone originally involved, aside from the Pillows.

[ameakooo]

god damn you fucks are never happy, are ya

[PokeNirvash]

3 hours ago, ben0119 said:

No, I was right the first time.  Alternative is sloppily written and falls apart as it goes on, and then the ending.  Oof.

Sloppily written or no, it's still leagues better than Progressive. I do agree about the ending being weak, though.

[Jman]

5 hours ago, ameakooo said:

god damn you fucks are never happy, are ya

The sooner people realize Toonami is no longer the be-all, end-all for anime in this country the happier they’ll be.

Time in memorial was that this was the only source for non-butchered anime in the US, but those days are over.  The days of thinking On Demand is “sucking ADV’s luscious cock” are gone, replaced with the current abundance of content.

If DeMarco wants to waste his money on FLCL sequels and Junji Ito stories no one will watch, it’s no longer a matter of life and death for the medium.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Jman

[Sketch]

14 hours ago, ben0119 said:

I don't like the idea of them butting in on the creatives, but then again, Demarco said that Big O Season 2 would have made even less sense without their input.  Of course, I had a lot more trust in what Demarco said back then.  Hard to say how things actually went down now, knowing Demarco's penchant for bullshitting.

Are you crazy?  FLCL Progressive was the much better show.  You could get into the characters and the story more, and every episode had different art style to it, it was actually somewhat innovative and creative, like the original series.  Not as good as the original, of course, but a decent enough spin-off that stands on its own merits.  Alternative screwed up its story and characters, the whole break with the main character and the other girl was not properly built up at all, much less the solution to all of that, and the art style was generic modern anime and nothing very innovative about the series at all.  Then why did Demarco say, about IGPX, that "we tried to make the characters as believable and realistic as possible," something to that effect.  Which is hilarious!  How do the IGPX characters feel so much like real people, exactly?  IGPX happens to be one of the few shows that does not manage to hold my attention.  I can sit through and attentively watch all kinds of anime, even some really shitty ones, but that one just makes me zone out.  I hope they are good, proven sci-fi writers.  I never saw Blade Runner 2049.  People said it was better than the original.  I find that... unlikely.  I had no interest in it and did not think it would be anything to write home about, though maybe I should check it out sometime.  But, this Blade Runner show could end up disastrous if it isn't handled with great care.  I wonder if any of the original crew from the first movie are involved.

Sorry if I don't give a shit about Run the Jewels, or the crappy music Demarco likes or promotes.  And I think you are vastly over-estimating his and Adult Swim's importance in the music industry.  Demarco believes his own hype in this regard, and it seems you do too.

Well that is how they make it come across.  "LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE DOING FOR YOU!  WE DON'T EVEN GET PAID!"  When I'm pretty sure no one was asking them to do work and not get paid for it.  Stuff like that is what gave the impression that Toonami was a labor of love that lost money or barely broke even.  After all, it is well-known that Adult Swim will do things that aren't particularly profitable, just because they want to, whether to do a weird thing, troll, or pursue some endeavor they are passionate about, whatever the reason.  As I understand it, they are salaried employees.  In most cases, they would get additional salary for the Toonami work, but in this case, choose not to.  I'd say Demarco is paid a good $250-300,000 a year easily, or at least six figures.  We saw his house before, and while he didn't exactly give a tour, it's not a mansion, but I wouldn't call it a shack, either.  At the very least, he is living comfortably, and not being worked to the bone.  Either way, it is his choice to take on the work load he has.

But the thing is, Demarco said this when the block was still really long, before all these cuts happened.  So...  And they had not done the CGI refresh for the better part of a year, and still don't update it that often anymore.  And with Demarco making that statement about it being self-sufficient and profitable, gave the impression they are getting paid now.  No mention was made about it being too long, or too expensive and unwieldy, either.

I didn't say anyone could do it, but surely someone already working for Adult Swim, or someone they could hire that has done similar work, like you said, from somewhere like Funimation or Crunchyroll.  Granted, such people may not be given up by companies so easily, or they wouldn't want to move to another company so easily.  What it is, is I think a set of fresh eyes are needed.  Demarco may claim to be a hipster soothsayer when it comes to music, but his anime taste is as basic bitch as it gets.  And in some cases he likes (remember they claim to only air what they like) outright crap shows.  Getting Tokyo Ghoul, getting Akame Ga Kill, getting Food Wars (and renewing it!)  Demarco saying Naruto is one of the best shonens ever made, that quote is going to live in infamy forever.  And you are right that they can't do anything about other companies with bigger wallets outbidding them with brute force.  But still, I don't think the Toonami crew are what they're cracked up to be anymore.  At least the shows recently have been better picks for the most part, but we are losing a bunch of time slots now, so...

I never really paid attention to Crunchyroll, since they were a subs only thing.  But Funimation has been the biggest player by far when it comes to licensing and localizing anime for a long time, so yeah.

Was it John Oliver or Jon Stewart who did a segment on interns and how they should be paid for their work?  I tend to agree with that sentiment.  But yes, they need someone younger, or at least some fresh blood of some sort, because Demarco and the others seem out of touch in a lot of ways now, going back to the well repeatedly, or sometimes just making some outright baffling acquisition choices.  The shows should be chosen even more carefully now that we only have 3 hours to work with.

In all of my years discussing FLCL online, I have not seen one person say they want a sequel to it.  And it was re-aired quite a few times and discussed again each time, and talked about even when it wasn't on the air.  It never even entered the conversation.  I'm sure maybe someone said it somewhere, but it was not a prolific thing at all.  Progressive was a solid enough follow up and there are characters and concepts in that show that I like and I'm glad exist, but Alternative was a sloppy mess.  But neither were on par with the original.  I mean, Samurai Jack was an unfinished story.  And ratings and the buzz and talk it created proves that people wanted more of it.

I want them to co-fund the Bleach finale, but I know it's a pipe dream.  It would take a lot more money to make so many episodes, and there would be a lot, even without the need for filler and padding, since the manga is done.  I guess that makes me a hypocrite? Naw, Bleach is another unfinished story, just like Samurai Jack.  In fact, many people want, if the anime finale were to be made, to have Kubo personally involved and be able to include some things that were left out of the manga.  It doesn't seem like Kubo was able to do the ending he wanted, and Kubo said the decision to end the series was his own, not the editors.  So given how he was doing poorly health wise and discovered he had a fracture in his drawing arm after the manga ended, and made the post about continuing the series despite his health because of a letter he got from a dying boy... it seems he tried to go as far as he could with it, but had to stop due to his health.  So if it never gets animated, even without what I believe are some crucial things left out in the manga, it will be a real shame.  Around the time I first saw Trigun I had no idea what manga was or that many animes were adapted from it, would sometimes stray from those original stories, or add filler, etc.  The Trigun series seemed like such a masterpiece, and a perfect and worthy companion to air beside Cowboy Bebop as ASA often did, that the idea it was adapted from a manga it was unfaithful to seemed unthinkable.  Of course, I have no idea about the story quality of the manga version.  I remember reading a couple things about character fates that don't seem as good as the anime to me, but not sure how accurate those were, and it has been some time since then.  But I suppose that could be interesting to see.  Wasn't the Trigun movie made due to American fan interest?

It wasn’t built up as well as it could have been but Kana had that fall out with Pets coming. Kana regularly meddled in her friends affairs for her own benefit and eventually they called her out on that. If you pay attention to Pets in every episode you can see the destain she has for Kana’s selfish behavior. It’s subtle and nuanced. I think Alternative is a much better written story even if they don’t stick the landing at the end. If you want to talk about things coming out of nowhere, plant girl mcguffin in Progressive takes the cake. Visually Progressive did some interesting things but the story was too beholden to the original and focused on Haruko’s obsession with Atomisk of all things. Jinyu depicting Haruko’s inner turmoil was a neat idea though and Hidomi’s story was fine, the rest was a mess or just memberberries.

The interesting thing about Pro and Alt is people have differing opinions on which was better. I know two people who love FLCL to death and one liked Pro more and the other thinks Alt is as good as the original.

Maybe they were more involved in IGPX scripts then, I don’t really know but I’m pretty sure they weren’t credited as episode writers. They definitely gave input on the story and characters regardless.

You’re probably underselling what AS and DeMarco have accomplished in the music industry. What other TV network promotes more artists? Hell, what other music supplier spotlights so many new artists? You’re probably not well informed on that subject. That said, I would not say DeMarco in particular is as much of a taste maker as that article title implies.

If you wanted Toonami back and you want it to stick around then you kind of are asking them to do it for no additional pay because that’s the only way it was going to happen. Now that choice helps keep costs down and ensures Toonami makes money for Adult Swim rather than just breaks even. It is their choice not to demand additional pay for working on Toonami but if they didn’t make that choice it would be harder to justify keeping Toonami around.

It’s pretty dang likely that Toonami would not exist without DeMarco guiding it. I doubt anyone else at AS wants that responsibility. They could simply do things the ASA way again because that was even more affordable.

FUNi has the biggest titles (DBZ, MHA, AoT, etc) but before Sony bought them they were no match for CR in sheer number of titles licensed every season. That’s changed though. CR still co-produces the most anime though.

Basic bitch shounen gets views. That’s probably the biggest difference maker between ASA and Toonami aside from having a recognizable brand. ASA was content to only air only 2-3 basic bitch shounen most of the time while Toonami airs significantly more all of the time. I think AgK was trash as well but it certainly did well. But what exactly do you even want them to air that would feasibly do well?

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Sketch

[Sketch]

14 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Well, ASA would announce things months ahead of time, and Toonami has with some things, too.  It's clear this is something they do by choice.  But yes, they way you put it, it's very convenient for Demarco, isn't it?  But he still is full of crap and still knew the cuts were coming, even if he can technically get out of this with "from a certain point of view."

Oh yeah that's right.  Well they were foolish to do that from the very beginning, and I guess I gave them too much credit, then?  I mean, they didn't even care that the new FLCL shows would have no input from anyone originally involved, aside from the Pillows.

They did want the original staff, particularly Tsurumaki the director but he told them to get new blood to come up with their own take on FLCL.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Sketch

[PokeNirvash]

19 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Then why did Demarco say, about IGPX, that "we tried to make the characters as believable and realistic as possible," something to that effect.  Which is hilarious!  How do the IGPX characters feel so much like real people, exactly?

Well, the fact that the series gives focus to the lives of the main characters outside of the races and training for said races is the most prominent point of proof for that. It demonstrates them as being more than just the pilots for the titular sport's machines they're portrayed as in the media, almost as if they're actual people in their own right! Hence why we see not just the races, but the behind-the-scenes conflicts, especially concerning teammate infighting. Real world people aren't ideal. They have flaws, they contradict themselves, they can come off as petulant or even unlikable at times. Which is pretty much how many of the characters in IGPX - especially Takeshi in the first half of season 2 - are portrayed.

A good example of the believability of character interactions that I never got the opportunity to bring up back when they reaired the show in 2013 was the relationship between Takeshi and Fantine, conceptually. Lots of people claimed it didn't make sense - except for Ranlsa, but who cares about her - but after giving it some thought (something people here are more often than not averse to), I realized that it did, but not in the way they thought. Takeshi didn't have as much chemistry with Fantine as he did with Liz, that's for certain, but that was the whole fucking point of it. Much like Takeshi, I was a teenager once, and when a teenager has someone of the opposite sex (or at least, the same sexual orientation) interested in them, they jump on the opportunity to date them, if only for the sake of having a girlfriend. Granted, I was too socially awkward to do it myself, but Takeshi took that opportunity, and felt the burn when his first romantic relationship ultimately fizzled out. A burnout that ultimately gave him the opportunity to realize who it was he had real romantic chemistry with. If that's not a realistic look at how a romantic relationship works for teenagers IRL, at least in comparison to your average lawlharem anime, then I don't know what is.

However, despite my attempts to support the more realistic facets of IGPX, I'm not in any hurry to flat-out call it "realistic". Not after Metatronda claimed that Andrei secretly being the Rocket all along makes no sense when internet search engines can allow anyone to look up even the most shameful details of an athlete's private life. You know, despite the fact that Andrei claimed he wasn't trying to keep his past in the dark (just that it wasn't worth mentioning), on top of assuming the "confidentiality agreement" he claimed kept him from saying such things wasn't just a lie he told Takeshi to avoid talking about it right then and there, and assuming further that Andrei Rublev was his real name and he didn't change it to that after "Rocket G" left the spotlight all those years ago. My frustration with him utterly destroying me in that argument was admittedly what inspired me to conceptualize a sequel to IGPX exploring my headcanon take on those elements, alongside Top_Gun's 180 in opinion on the show come the second half demonstrating itself as most forced attempt at agreeing to popular opinion I've ever seen.

Granted, my thoughts on all of this are way too in-depth for a show that's almost 15 years old and has likely been forgotten by most people by now, but my reasons for being so defensive of IGPX are valid. Besides my dislike of negative opinions towards stuff I genuinely like, I viewed IGPX as the "cool guy" show on Toonami back in '05-'06, no doubt in part thanks to it being at the ass-end of the block next to [as], in letterbox (the best aspect ratio preservation formatting), having really cool visual shots, and actually using profanity when the other shows couldn't! (11 year-old me practically shat bricks when he heard Miss Satomi say the ass-word in episode 12.) My official beginning-to-end watch in 2009 gave me a higher-than-before appreciation of the NINJA TUNE record label, to the point where I now own albums from several of their artists, including Mr. Scruff, Amon Tobin, Jaga Jazzist, The Herbaliser, and Bonobo. (The former's Trouser Jazz and the latter's Black Sands are some of my all-time favorite albums.) Not to mention somehow, I wound up integrating it into the timeline shared by several of my then-present and soon-future anime ideas, to the point where I viewed attacks towards IGPX's plot and characters as attacks towards that universe in general. It got so deep ingrained that not only did I create the hypothetical prequel IGPX Legend out of it, but I also snuck an extremely subtle reference into one of the chapters of the original anime idea I wrote up over a year ago. (By the way, Ben, your "Viewer Apathy Dynamo" comment from way back saw reference when I initially posted it here, so thanks for that.) IGPX is far from my favorite series, it's not even a 10/10 in my book! But I appreciate what it tried to do, what it succeeded at doing, and the unseen ways in which the former could be seen as the latter, and that's enough for me to consider it one of my secret favorites, if not an outright guilty pleasure.

6 hours ago, Sketch said:

Maybe they were more involved in IGPX scripts then, I don’t really know but I’m pretty sure they weren’t credited as episode writers. They definitely gave input on the story and characters regardless.

According to Anime News Network, IGPX's Japanese scripts were written between four individuals - one of whom was the director, another an animator, and a third an editor - but Demarco is listed as "senior writer" on the English side, so it stands to reason that he was behind more of the scriptwriting than Hongo and his team would make one think.

Edited February 23, 2020 by PokeNirvash

[Top Gun]

Poke what are you even talking about.

[Daos]

I agree with everything that man said despite never seeing the show or knowing anything about it other than it involves racing in the future or something.

[PokeNirvash]

3 hours ago, Top Gun said:

Poke what are you even talking about.

My inner frustration with this community not liking one specific anime as much as I do put into words, that's what I'm talking about.

[ben0119]

On 2/22/2020 at 3:12 AM, ameakooo said:

god damn you fucks are never happy, are ya

They had been picking some pretty decent shows lately (to me at least,) and I was pretty content, until they started taking an axe to the block.

[ben0119]

On 2/22/2020 at 3:22 PM, Sketch said:

It wasn’t built up as well as it could have been but Kana had that fall out with Pets coming. Kana regularly meddled in her friends affairs for her own benefit and eventually they called her out on that. If you pay attention to Pets in every episode you can see the destain she has for Kana’s selfish behavior. It’s subtle and nuanced. I think Alternative is a much better written story even if they don’t stick the landing at the end. If you want to talk about things coming out of nowhere, plant girl mcguffin in Progressive takes the cake. Visually Progressive did some interesting things but the story was too beholden to the original and focused on Haruko’s obsession with Atomisk of all things. Jinyu depicting Haruko’s inner turmoil was a neat idea though and Hidomi’s story was fine, the rest was a mess or just memberberries.

The interesting thing about Pro and Alt is people have differing opinions on which was better. I know two people who love FLCL to death and one liked Pro more and the other thinks Alt is as good as the original.

Maybe they were more involved in IGPX scripts then, I don’t really know but I’m pretty sure they weren’t credited as episode writers. They definitely gave input on the story and characters regardless.

You’re probably underselling what AS and DeMarco have accomplished in the music industry. What other TV network promotes more artists? Hell, what other music supplier spotlights so many new artists? You’re probably not well informed on that subject. That said, I would not say DeMarco in particular is as much of a taste maker as that article title implies.

If you wanted Toonami back and you want it to stick around then you kind of are asking them to do it for no additional pay because that’s the only way it was going to happen.  Now that choice helps keep costs down and ensures Toonami makes money for Adult Swim rather than just breaks even. It is their choice not to demand additional pay for working on Toonami but if they didn’t make that choice it would be harder to justify keeping Toonami around.

It’s pretty dang likely that Toonami would not exist without DeMarco guiding it. I doubt anyone else at AS wants that responsibility. They could simply do things the ASA way again because that was even more affordable.

FUNi has the biggest titles (DBZ, MHA, AoT, etc) but before Sony bought them they were no match for CR in sheer number of titles licensed every season. That’s changed though. CR still co-produces the most anime though.

Basic bitch shounen gets views. That’s probably the biggest difference maker between ASA and Toonami aside from having a recognizable brand. ASA was content to only air only 2-3 basic bitch shounen most of the time while Toonami airs significantly more all of the time. I think AgK was trash as well but it certainly did well. But what exactly do you even want them to air that would feasibly do well?

It's been a while since I saw the show, and I didn't exactly commit it to memory.  (It wasn't exactly very memorable to begin with.)  But their friendship before the break was not even built up well, if I recall correctly.  The other characters all had episodes focused on them, but Pets didn't.  So we really didn't have any idea of their relationship at all.  Then it's all "WHELP WE AIN'T FRIENDS NO MORE."  And it's like... okay.  So now we're supposed to be upset at this friendship falling apart that was never built up in the first place, and also feel a sense of urgency about repairing it.  Ehh...  And again, the art was generic and the plot was not much to write home about either.  I can't see how anyone would think the show was better than Progressive.  The plant girl was built up the whole show as not being normal, I don't know what you're talking about.  I don't know what you are getting at with being beholden to the original.  Yes there were connections, but with as distant some of them were and with so many characters from the original with not so much as cameos, it makes you think of one of those sequels made to something that is in legal licensing hell that can't use all of the characters and IP.  Oh yeah, that Robotech movie was apparently like that?  Lol.  I haven't watched it yet.  Or when you figure out the Robotech shows aren't really sequels to each other, and it explains the same sort of lack of connections.  So if anything, the showrunners held off quite a lot with that.  Many fans agreed it seemed for the best to leave certain characters and stories alone, and Progressive did that, while still expanding on the original and doing some good world building.  "Hidomi's story was fine."  She was the main character lmao!  Dude just Jinyu existing made the show worth it.

Neither one are as good as the original, but Progressive at least feels more like an FLCL show and part of that universe.  It does interesting stuff with the art, storytelling, and the world.  Alternative is just like a generic slice of life show with generic art, whose plot then goes off the rails after the story and character relationships and development aren't built up properly.

Looks like Poke was able to determine that, if his findings were correct, that is.  They did have a good amount of creative input, as I thought.

If he has accomplished so much then why are the only people who talk about Demarco's involvement in the music industry are him and his co-workers, and fans of Adult Swim and/or Toonami?  I will admit that I am not the most knowledgeable on this subject.  I'm not that into music.  Sure I like music and there are some bands I like, but I don't keep up with it like I used to, and I never bothered to learn the artists' life stories most of the time.  But, I have a friend who is big into music and he never talked about Demarco, I never hear his name brought up on podcasts when music discussion comes up, and the podcast hosts I listen to have diverse taste in music.  Granted these are wrestling podcasts but still, one guy books metal clubs and the others are big into music of various kinds, one guy is obsessed with Poppy and just got to meet her and give her "funeral" speech in Chicago.  I've never heard ANYONE bring up Demarco outside of those I mentioned originally.  No one in the music industry even talks about him.  If I didn't watch Adult Swim/Toonami or ever went on the related forums I would have no idea he exists, much less that he had anything to do with any of these artists or got Run the Jewels together, though I would know who they are, but wouldn't care since I don't like them.  I think he overestimates his own importance, as do fans of Adult Swim and Toonami, it seems.  And no he is no massive music tastemaker, mainly because his music taste is shit.  This is just a small group of hipsters patting each other on the back.

And if Toonami isn't a money hole, then this music shit Demarco does sure is.

So Toonami really has made money this whole time?  Because that is now how it came off at all.

I am sure there is someone that could be found that could do a better job.  There are options, as we discussed.  Demarco is just not what he's cracked up to be anymore.  He is an out of touch dinosaur when he used to be the opposite.  As I said, he and Toonami have become what Toonami was originally fighting against.  He might even be another fallen genius along the likes of George Lucas, Frank Miller, and Vince McMahon.  But if Toonami can't exist without Demarco, as you are implying, and if the recent turn of events and decisions are things we can look forward to in the future, Toonami's death will be quite a slow and pitiful one indeed.

I didn't think Sony buying them changed many things.  I remembered at the time it might make things worse, since Sony is a Japanese company and Japanese companies often make... questionable decisions.  But, you say it has actually bolstered Funimation even more?  And I guess I never really paid attention to Crunchyroll because they're mainly a subs only thing.  But I had always thought Funimation was the biggest player in town.

I mean even when Demarco would talk about shows he likes in posts or on Pre-Flight, when I used to watch that.  All he really knows is the most mainstream stuff.  The only out there thing I can think of hearing from him is the Junge Ito stuff.  And again, he gave great praise to Naruto "one of the greatest shonens ever made."  So yeah.  He is not a tastemaker of anime, either.

I haven't watched a lot of stuff on my own beforehand, but there are plenty of shows that people have suggested that seem like they would have been good on the block, both for ratings and viewer enjoyment, that Demarco either was unable or unwilling to air.  Lots of seemingly obvious perfect candidates they passed on.  It's also the fact of some the stuff they do air.  Toonami is losing shows and slots left and right, but we are going to stick to Food Wars and Shippuden as being stalwarts on the block?!  Talk about priorities!  With so few timeslots, they need to be used wisely, and not wasted on crap!

[ben0119]

On 2/24/2020 at 12:20 AM, Top Gun said:

Poke what are you even talking about.

I think his brain broke and spilled out.

[ben0119]

On 2/22/2020 at 4:25 PM, PokeNirvash said:

Well, the fact that the series gives focus to the lives of the main characters outside of the races and training for said races is the most prominent point of proof for that. It demonstrates them as being more than just the pilots for the titular sport's machines they're portrayed as in the media, almost as if they're actual people in their own right! Hence why we see not just the races, but the behind-the-scenes conflicts, especially concerning teammate infighting. Real world people aren't ideal. They have flaws, they contradict themselves, they can come off as petulant or even unlikable at times. Which is pretty much how many of the characters in IGPX - especially Takeshi in the first half of season 2 - are portrayed.

A good example of the believability of character interactions that I never got the opportunity to bring up back when they reaired the show in 2013 was the relationship between Takeshi and Fantine, conceptually. Lots of people claimed it didn't make sense - except for Ranlsa, but who cares about her - but after giving it some thought (something people here are more often than not averse to), I realized that it did, but not in the way they thought. Takeshi didn't have as much chemistry with Fantine as he did with Liz, that's for certain, but that was the whole fucking point of it. Much like Takeshi, I was a teenager once, and when a teenager has someone of the opposite sex (or at least, the same sexual orientation) interested in them, they jump on the opportunity to date them, if only for the sake of having a girlfriend. Granted, I was too socially awkward to do it myself, but Takeshi took that opportunity, and felt the burn when his first romantic relationship ultimately fizzled out. A burnout that ultimately gave him the opportunity to realize who it was he had real romantic chemistry with. If that's not a realistic look at how a romantic relationship works for teenagers IRL, at least in comparison to your average lawlharem anime, then I don't know what is.

However, despite my attempts to support the more realistic facets of IGPX, I'm not in any hurry to flat-out call it "realistic". Not after Metatronda claimed that Andrei secretly being the Rocket all along makes no sense when internet search engines can allow anyone to look up even the most shameful details of an athlete's private life. You know, despite the fact that Andrei claimed he wasn't trying to keep his past in the dark (just that it wasn't worth mentioning), on top of assuming the "confidentiality agreement" he claimed kept him from saying such things wasn't just a lie he told Takeshi to avoid talking about it right then and there, and assuming further that Andrei Rublev was his real name and he didn't change it to that after "Rocket G" left the spotlight all those years ago. My frustration with him utterly destroying me in that argument was admittedly what inspired me to conceptualize a sequel to IGPX exploring my headcanon take on those elements, alongside Top_Gun's 180 in opinion on the show come the second half demonstrating itself as most forced attempt at agreeing to popular opinion I've ever seen.

Granted, my thoughts on all of this are way too in-depth for a show that's almost 15 years old and has likely been forgotten by most people by now, but my reasons for being so defensive of IGPX are valid. Besides my dislike of negative opinions towards stuff I genuinely like, I viewed IGPX as the "cool guy" show on Toonami back in '05-'06, no doubt in part thanks to it being at the ass-end of the block next to [as], in letterbox (the best aspect ratio preservation formatting), having really cool visual shots, and actually using profanity when the other shows couldn't! (11 year-old me practically shat bricks when he heard Miss Satomi say the ass-word in episode 12.) My official beginning-to-end watch in 2009 gave me a higher-than-before appreciation of the NINJA TUNE record label, to the point where I now own albums from several of their artists, including Mr. Scruff, Amon Tobin, Jaga Jazzist, The Herbaliser, and Bonobo. (The former's Trouser Jazz and the latter's Black Sands are some of my all-time favorite albums.) Not to mention somehow, I wound up integrating it into the timeline shared by several of my then-present and soon-future anime ideas, to the point where I viewed attacks towards IGPX's plot and characters as attacks towards that universe in general. It got so deep ingrained that not only did I create the hypothetical prequel IGPX Legend out of it, but I also snuck an extremely subtle reference into one of the chapters of the original anime idea I wrote up over a year ago. (By the way, Ben, your "Viewer Apathy Dynamo" comment from way back saw reference when I initially posted it here, so thanks for that.) IGPX is far from my favorite series, it's not even a 10/10 in my book! But I appreciate what it tried to do, what it succeeded at doing, and the unseen ways in which the former could be seen as the latter, and that's enough for me to consider it one of my secret favorites, if not an outright guilty pleasure.

According to Anime News Network, IGPX's Japanese scripts were written between four individuals - one of whom was the director, another an animator, and a third an editor - but Demarco is listed as "senior writer" on the English side, so it stands to reason that he was behind more of the scriptwriting than Hongo and his team would make one think.

Yeah there is the slice of life stuff.  I think I remember people saying they liked that better than the actual races?  And yeah, I mentioned how I zoned out when I watched the show no matter how hard I tried to give it my full attention, and it has been years since I've seen it, but I am having trouble remembering the stuff I would have brought up.  I want to say I think you are right with some of the characters being shown as like actual people.  But some of the others are over-the-top caricatures, many of the opponent teams.  And characters could be unlikable or annoying, but I guess that doesn't necessarily make them  unrealistic.  I do remember the show would do things like having non-Japanese characters bow to each other and shit and that got on my nerves.  But yeah I am really having trouble remembering examples.  Also it did help how it was hyped up as far as disappointment with the show.  TOONAMI'S FIRST ORIGINAL FROM THE MAKERS OF GHOST IN THE SHELL.  Then finding out it is just about racing.  Which, while the robot combat racing concept was an original idea in itself, it's also the safest option they could come up with, as in, the story basically writes itself and they don't have to sell people on any crazy out there idea, and no one is going to get seriously hurt, either.  Yeah there was the cursing, but eh, whoopty-doo.

Yeah, I had to look up which one was Liz and which one was Fantine.  And I honestly can't remember how I felt about that all that much, or if I felt much at all.  Edit - Ah shit, Fantine isn't the name of the other girl on Takeshi's team, she's from that other team.  Amy is the other girl on the team.  I forgot more than I thought.

Season 2 did stuff to go along with what fans said?  I never knew that.  I didn't think there was a time gap in their production?  I will at least say the show managed to do a good job of showing the characters struggle, even though they win both seasons.  They don't come off as over-powered or getting the victories too easily.  A lot of shows would have had them lose either the first time, or the second time, would have been easier to do.  Like how Rocky loses in Rocky 1.  But then again, there are only so many sports plots you can do and many of them have been done to death.  Yeah I don't remember the whole Rocket G thing that well.  I think I might have thought it was obvious that was him, or I didn't expect it all.  Can't remember.  He did put on some pounds and looked drastically different though lol.  The writers probably didn't anticipate the ease of figuring out someone's identity in the future, either, heh.

Huh.  I can see someone who is so passionate about a series they make fan fictions, to be more defensive about said series.  But to take it as if insults and criticism are directed at their fan fiction as well as the original content?  Ehhh?  That's... odd... to say the least.  You're welcome.   Well you are defending it a lot for something that is a secret favorite or guilty pleasure.  Also I'm pretty sure guilty pleasure would mean you like/care about it less than secret favorite?  Guilty pleasure is like something someone knows is bad but enjoys it anyway.  Actually, according to a quick search, it's just something that is held in poor regard that the person is ashamed of watching, so it may not be bad to them after all.  Google refuses to bring up anything on secret favorite but I would assume it means exactly what it says, and would still be a better category than guilty pleasure.  Secret favorite doesn't mean you are ashamed of liking it.  But anyway.  And yeah it is even weirder for you to defend the show if you aren't even that high on it.

AHA!  I was right!

Edited March 1, 2020 by ben0119