SwimModSponges

Being an arborist, everyone expects me to solve all their tree issues in my free time. Just the other week this guy I know starts asking me about difficulties he was having with this thousand-year old tree the druids held sacred. I stop him and say "buddy that sounds like a yew problem."

And to tie it all back to Mass Effect... So I can't find the clip to confirm, but if I recall correctly the Star Child explains something like- biological life keeps creating synthetics because we strive for technical "perfection", whereas synthetic life keeps taking over and killing everyone because they strive for an understanding of what y'all'ed consider a soul. Put that shit together and it's like chocolate and peanut butter except I don't like chocolate and peanut butter.

I mean, can a synthesizer feel emotion?

I'd argue again that the collaboration results in the gestalt. Two entities which, in and of themselves, lack a particular part of the equation that the other makes up for. The father doesn't have the abilty to gestate, the mother doesn't have the ability to fertilize. A bit of a skewed metaphor, but it creates art nonetheless.

You'd need a lot more data to create a sufficient neural network. It doesn't just rely on pictures, it replies on descriptions, discussions, analysis, the tone in which those discussions and analyses are presented. It knows the difference between someone describing an image that makes them angry because of its inherent message versus an image that makes them angry due to lack of quality, etc. And all of those things would fall under the secondary inspiration images. As far as prompt work I'd say you can do a decent job of describing emotions through text. I mean that's a lot of what we do as humans.

Woohoo I'm right. Agree to a point, it's an interesting tool, honestly I'd say it's best utility for an artist would be solidifying inspiration. And I'll agree with that first statement pretty well. Collaboration is, I think the operational word here. You bring the inspiration and emotion, AI provides technical skill. I don't care if anyone wants to supplant or replace any of their own manual work. It's their work. Folks selling AI generated images? I mean, I've seen AI images I'd really like to put on my wall. Would it be ethical of me to just download and print off the picture? Fuck, I don't know. You know what I saw one time? This business- you send them $50 and a picture of your dog and they photoshop their heads onto one of five historical portraits and mail you the print. Shit I don't know how to feel about that one either. Scrolled though quickly before I jumped into the argument, saw scoob saying I was right, saw you calling AI a buzzword. Goddamn ain't that the truth. I have no idea what that tweet means, NFTs are just so goddamn stupid and those crypto goobers are just... goobers.

Let's take this abstract idea of a duck and replace it with a concrete example. Anime fan art. Man, love me some Bleach. Really love the way Tite Kubo draws, his line style, alladat. Made this picture. Looks almost exactly like official artwork. Tite Kubo comes up and says "hey, that looks exactly like my art." I say "thanks, I tried to copy your style exactly." Tite Kubo say "neat. you uh, gonna draw her naked now?" (Jesus christ, 2 new replies so far and I haven't even got to the first two. Gonna be here all day again) People have been replicating images they liked since we were first able to replicate images. Varying degrees of success. Some fan art will look like hot garbage, some of it legitimately would be indiscernible from the original. It's been fine so far without anyone straight-up calling it theft. I don't know, do you think fan art is theft? I mean I suppose inherently it is using copyrighted characters, so case closed I guess? Well shit. Suppose it isn't though. Suppose there's some loophole. I didn't exactly "trace" it, I saw the character, studied your work, then created a new image of your work in as close a style as I could replicate. The image, though pretty-well indistinguishable from your work (except the hands, always fuck up the hands ) came from my head and my hand. Right? Well, I mean that's literally how the AI works too. There are two qualifications for this argument. 1. The original image is not saved or stored perfectly within the mind - Your memory is not photographic. Your mind works as a series of densely connected concepts you've garnered throughout your experience. It's a black box and you can't see the individual connections, but the gestalt of them make up the thought. That's how the AI was built too. (fuck three replies. gotta be brief) 2. The output image originated from an entirely unique point and the results came about through your own actions - The AI doesn't go out onto the internet, find a picture to use as a base, and modify it from there. That would take for-fucking ever. The AI also does not have a database of stored images to pull from and then modify. That would take for-fucking ever and require storage like you wouldn't believe- literally the internet's worth of pictures. AI takes its tangled concept web and generates an image-static seed. This random combination of pixels exists nowhere else on earth. Using its concept web, the AI looks for patterns in the static that reflect the thoughts and ideas presented. It then refines the pixels around those outline pixels to create the final image. Yes, the AI inherently sees an image not produced by someone else and posted on the internet- the seed image it projects onto.

Ok, so, I have to be brief today because this is my last chance to start my next batch of alcohol before the end of the year. Hang on, first off I just made this and thought it was funny.

All right, so... there's prolly a "gotcha" I'm walking into with this, but sure- I'll post something I used AI to generate. And I'll use a good one instead of just typing "deez nuts" into the prompt bar. But goddamn it was a close call. So, I'll give you the whole story first I suppose. One day I saw a youtube video of some people taking an egg, encasing it in plastic resin, letting it sit for a few months, then cutting that motherfucker open to see what it do. Pretty interesting. I get this thought in my head one day... what about a space man? Y'ever see that episode of Futurama where Bender gets shot out into space and ends up being a god to a race of tiny people that grew a society on him? Well what about that, only darker. There's this line I like in a Manson song of the Mechanical Animals album, about being a dead astronaut in space. Like... space man dies out there, floats off forever. Millions of years go bye and the soup he rotted into becomes the primordial stew for another race of microscopic alien beings existing wholly within the universe of his space suit... Fun to think about that. Actually that thought sticks in my head for a couple weeks. I mean it's not exactly an original idea I'm sure, but it popped into my head, I enjoy it... I figure I should try to maybe do something with it. Can't art for shit anymore. Loved to in high school, was never honestly any good, but loved it. Arted a bit during lockdown, and I mean it was ok. I mean I was still terrible- actually honestly I'd say I drew exactly as well now as I did in the past- but I mean... just wasn't feeling it. Started brewing my own alcohol instead, man that was an incredibly good decision on my part. Anyways, I toss a couple sentences into my "novel ideas" word file, give it a few notes on some rough structure, protagonists, antagonists... Figure if we ever have another writing contest I adapt that story, but honestly I'd probably never have the chance to make it a point to sit down and write the story out otherwise. Still it's a fun idea, and I'm glad I got it out into words. This was all happening around the time that the general public was first being allowed access to the AI, prior to that it was an entirely academic sphere. I figure, shit, put my name in the hat, see what happens. Like some real Charlie and the Chocolate factory vibes going on here. Eventually I get in, and after I use the AI to generate a couple leprechauns on acid (literally typed the first thing that came to my head when I got on. So excited.), I remember that story idea I had. Man, how the fuck you even sum that idea up in a single image, much less a string of words to describe that image? Man, this is gonna be a big ol' thinking session..... ... ....... ... ....... Aight. I got it. Rough idea in my head of what image direction I want to go with. Now to put that shit to words. Knock out the easy stuff, the type of composition, the context the image is in, the framing of the image, lighting, color saturation (I like it. a lot.), any other particular effects on the image... get into describing what the image actually depicts. Detailed as I can be. Scoob baby you know I can paint a room with words. Hammering it on home. How does the image make you feel? Disturbed? Hopeful? Melancholic? Forbodin-er..forboded? I really wanted there to be a distinction between light and dark, like the land in the sunlight of the spaceman's mask is this bright glistening city, but there's real darkness lurking down in the bones of the suit, or something like that. So I end up typing up like a paragraph and a half into this thing, and excitedly hit the button. What happens now is very exciting. The AI reads what I am describing and uses its own neural network to form in its own mind a rough image of what I was describing. This is where I'd explain how the neural network works and the fact that its a black box etc, but I've done that in like 5 different posts now so eh. In any case, what came back wasn't at all what I was going for though. I go back to refine my prompt, change a few sentences around, get things that work better or worse, finally I generate an image that's got real potential. So, I open it in paint, move some things around, feed it back through... yes, yes, now we're getting somewhere. Lets do that again a few times, yep that's about perfect. Well, no- eye sockets don't look right. Top of helmet too. And the background. redo the background. Yes, yes that's pretty. All told, whole thing took about two hours I'd say. And the urge to post a generated image of "deez nuts" is incredibly strong. But no, here you go. I (not an artist) used an AI (not an artist) to generate art (it's pretty [and also not stolen]).

Got fucking destroyed in karaoke last night. Dad was on fire, mom (who is usually horrible) had some decent songs. I just could not get a single one going well.

Oh my god, yesterday I made the best roast i've ever done. Ever. Everything came out freaking incredible. Real proud of that one.

Rare Exports- well that was fun. Lotta santa penis.

Aight, listen- as far as I'm concerned there are 4 main arguments in this thread and we're all mostly in agreement on at least half of them. 1. Automation causes real harm to the individuals who find themselves outcompeted on the job market by machines. - Full agreement. Myself, being a retail manager at a not-for profit organization rather than a professional artist, am speaking from a place of priveleged detachment (though my career [as well as the careers of most others] is just as likely in danger of automation due to the rapid pace of advancements in AI). I am therefore being insensitive to the realities of others and I am sorry for my excitement. 2. It is not accurate to call the individual designing prompts an "artist". Nor is the AI itself an "artist". - Full agreement. Every day billions of people experience inspiration. The vast majority forget about it almost as quickly as it popped into their heads or are otherwise uninterested or incapable of pursing it. A fraction of that billionth, however, are special. Most have spent year- decades honing their craft, and the works these people are capable of are monumental by the very definition of the word. These amazing examples of humanity are artists. And these people deserve a whoooooole lot more respect and reverence that society currently gives them. That same society which restricts the available numbers of such incredible individuals through myriads of barriers to entry of the craft, be it financially due to cost of materials or just the inability to spare the time needed to see their inspiration to fruition. Some of those folks stumbled upon this AI and type things into it. Those people are not artists. Full stop. The AI, though technically incredible in its creations, is inherently devoid of both agency and inspiration. The AI is not an artist. Full stop. 3. Images created through Human/AI collaboration are not art. - Strong disagreement with the caveat that inherently it's a matter of taste. To paraphrase the precedent set by Jacobellis V. Ohio (1964), "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography " "art"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it." - Supreme Court justice Potter Stewart. You cannot tell me that you feel nothing when you look at an image just because you know it was done with AI. No, sorry, I phrased that badly. Art is subjective, and if you reject images made through AI, I accept your views. It's art in my eyes. And it's ok. Hell, I mean I've seen legitimate pornography I would define as art as well. That's me though. There's no accounting for taste, baby. 4. AI art is theft. - Hard no. This statement is factually incorrect when one takes a moment to understand how the process actually works. It's just not true, and I will not budge on this.

Why?

Now thats stealing art.

We just went through the explanation of why that's not what it does.

For real though, this whole engagement is like that scene in jurassic park where they're discussing the ethics of genetic power, and im just over here banging silverware on the table shouting "DI-NO-SAURS! DI-NO-SAURS! DI-NO-SAURS!" Very on-brand for me .

But they're not, that's the whole point of the third part of your argument. The AI is making shit thats all fucked up.

Neither the user nor the AI is an artist. Client is a weird word, are we clients of the boards? Yeah I suppose so.

I've never said the person entering a prompt is an artist.

Ok. we keep getting to this point and it's always where it seems to blow up repeatedly on us. I fully agree, the rise of automation is bad to the individuals being replaced by it. AI in that regard is an incredibly bad thing and we should fear the fuck out of it. With pure existential terror. Legitimately. But goddamnit, that is absolutely not how the diffusion process works. If someone wrote up a program to go out and combine images it wouldn't be news. That's not what AI is. Nor is it a massive store of images that it retrieves and calls upon to modify- I mean can you imagine how big the storage would have to be to have access to so many billions of images? The AI is a black box, a system of changing connections between concepts. They took it on a field trip to the internet and it sorta figured out the patterns of what's what for itself. You feed a prompt into it, the words rush through the neural network, and it generated an image based on what it "thinks" you mean. Now here's the diffusion part- this is what the AI generates. From there, the pattern-seeking components of the AI scan the image for things that sort of look like what was asked for. After determining a rough outline the AI then "diffuses" through the pixels, cleaning up the image until it gets a decent enough piece. The existing work of others is never touched, altered, sampled, or devalued. The AI has created something entirely new out of nothing. And I think that's neat. ... Except now I'm back on that existential terror shit.

Also this thread was incredibly civil for the entirety of the first page, people posting their opinions, articles, videoes etc. What the heck happened?

Well, fuck y'all too then, though im sad we can't see eye to eye. Nothing more tragic than the breakdown of human communication because people aren't willing to understand each other. I agree with you on all of the negative things you've pointed out (apart from the AI is theft slogan which is still untrue). Im sorry i can't convince you of the gravity of the situation. Also, fucking snowblower wouldn't start this morning. Goddamn machines amirite?

I'llIts not stealing, it creates something entirely new out of static based on what it knows words mean. Continuing to call it stealing is a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire process by which machine learning works and static diffusion works. Its not fantasy, its here. Im not the only one talking about this. It isn't a fad. This isnt a fairytale mindset, this shit is here. Empathy i'll give you 100% i have difficulty with wmpathy sometimes, especially in the face of global changes like this i think in the abstract rather than in terms of effects to actual human beings. Which yes, for individuals who make money through art, this is terrible. Just like every single piece of automation is terrible for every other individual whos job is lost to a machine. Which again, it isn't just artists. They are making AI to do everything. Everything. AI is outperforming doctors in diagnosing patients, ai is outperforming surgeons. Truckers, farmers, scientists, accountants, lawyers, gas station attendants, lawyers, CFOs, CEOs. We're rapidly hitting the point that everything can be automated. With everything but art, the argument is always "well thats progress now. We only need 5 people on an assembly line today compared to the 50 it took for the same job in the 90s. We're increasing productivity, efficiency, and standard of living while reducing the amount of human labor. In other industries, (we'll tie this back to art in a second) we have been conditioned to consider something that makes life easier a direct threat to ourselves because our masters will refuse to pay us. And thats the fault of a sick society not technological advancement. I mean we all see the writing on the wall here, right? Society in its current state isn't sustainable. Between the threat of global extinction from climate change, mass income disparity, and social issues such as these, something has to change, drastically, soon. Or things will change drastically, soon, and in a much worse way out of our control. AI is the most earth-shattering advancement human society has ever made, greater than the assembly line, comparable to fire, which led to us even being able to have societies. Sorry forgot to tie it back to art- at least art is a job that gives its creator satisfaction. When a fast food employee loses his job due to automation, going home and making burgers in his spare time isn't going to make him feel better. An artist though, they have their creativity and their love of their craft. A robot making shitty art shouldn't prevent them from expressing that. Also the grater/greater- thats a goddamn pun stop being obtuse and taking it literally. A pony and a dog walk up to a crow. The pony asks if the crow can yell at the dog for him. The pony has been yelling for a while and he's a little hoarse. Hoarse is not the same word as horse. Thats the joke. And i do believe what im saying. I understand the anger and the concern, i'm sorry im not empathinging with them as much as i should be. I think the worry and concern are valid given the situation. I dont think theres anything we can do to stop it though.