Identical twins with different sexualities

[mochi]

bible belt a-holes claim it disproves the idea that you can be born Gay

 

what's your opinion?

[bnmjy]

vagina.

[The_Swim_Grandpa]

It tells me that your Mr. Ratburn avatar is creepier than Zeni at a high school dance.

[The_Swim_Grandpa]

vagina.

Is your step mother in a beaver picture?

[GaiusIuliusCaesar]

bible belt a-holes claim it disproves the idea that you can be born Gay

 

what's your opinion?

 

well obviously it doesn't mean that, the simple fact that we have no idea what causes homosexuality means it is impossible to prevent. The current standing hypothesis as I am aware of it is that its a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Obviously the environmental exposure of genetically identical individuals was sufficiently distinct that one expressed a homosexual phenotype. There are so many factors that govern environmental behavioral changes that trying to pin down a cause of something as extreme as sexuality would be akin to finding the specific atom that shifts first in a landslide. Or to isolate the first water molecule in a hurricane.

 

But ignorant christian barbarians are incapable of understanding any of that, they are usually too busy grunting at each other and siring more offspring than they can properly raise.

[Master-Debater131]

It means that ones a fucking asshole and the other is fucking a asshole.

[Hornshire]

It heavily lends credibility to the notion that genetics is not the be all/end all of sexuality.

 

That doesn't mean that in most cases, let alone all of them, it's swayable.

 

But people interpret facts to suit their whims. This is not nearly as new a thing as people seem to think lately.

[mochi]

It heavily lends credibility to the notion that genetics is not the be all/end all of sexuality.

 

That doesn't mean that in most cases, let alone all of them, it's swayable.

 

But people interpret facts to suit their whims. This is not nearly as new a thing as people seem to think lately.

some people claim "sexual fluidity" is a thing

(which to the best of my understanding the term is just a more "polite" and "socially acceptable" way of saying they think Sexuality is a choice)

[bnmjy]

Is your step mother in a beaver picture?

 

Sure.

[André Toulon]

Don't really have an opinion outside the fact that I have 2 lesbian half sisters.....One who says she was born gay and another who says she chose being gay later in life.....She will tell you, NOT BI.....She's gay now.  Both are bullheaded and there's no point in arguing with either so as far as I'm concerned, it can be both.

[1pooh4u]

whut I don't understand how for Bible people it proves one and disproves the other.

At the very least it's a wash and you gain nothing.

[mochi]

Don't really have an opinion outside the fact that I have 2 lesbian half sisters.....One who says she was born gay and another who says she chose being gay later in life.....She will tell you, NOT BI.....She's gay now.  Both are bullheaded and there's no point in arguing with either so as far as I'm concerned, it can be both.

either the one who says it's a choice IS Bi but had tons of shitty relationships with guys and no longer trusts them or she chooses to believe that her journey to discovering she was just a lesbian was a conscious choice rather than an involuntary realization due to trial and error

 

probably the former

 

As far as I and guliano are concerned MOST people are actually Bisexual but have been conditioned to think Heterosexuality is the norm by society, strictly gay and straight people do exist, but most humans are not gay or straight

our reason for believing this is that prior to the rise of Judeo-Christian religions, being Bisexual was considered the norm in most cultures

[mochi]

whut I don't understand how for Bible people it proves one and disproves the other.

At the very least it's a wash and you gain nothing.

I don't understand why Bible people think it's their business who someone falls in love/gets sexual pleasure from in private with but sadly Bible people do and also more or less control our society

[bnmjy]

As far as I and guliano are concerned MOST people are actually Bisexual but have been conditioned to think Heterosexuality is the norm by society, strictly gay and straight people do exist, but most humans are not gay or straight

our reason for believing this is that prior to the rise of Judeo-Christian religions, being Bisexual was considered the norm in most cultures

 

Unless you and Guliano had a previous conversation on that subject, nowhere in that post did he even imply that. He did speak out against Christian bigotry at the end.

 

What cultures were there where bisexuality was considered normal? Please give me examples besides the usual Greek, Roman, and Japanese pederasty. If it really was the norm in the majority of cultures as you claim, it shouldn't be hard for you find.

[mochi]

Unless you and Guliano had a previous conversation on that subject, nowhere in that post did he even imply that. He did speak out against Christian bigotry at the end.

 

What cultures were there where bisexuality was considered normal? Please give me examples besides the usual Greek, Roman, and Japanese pederasty. If it really was the norm in the majority of cultures as you claim, it shouldn't be hard for you find.

Spartans for one

 

also the pederasty was secondary to them being okay with two adults having a homosexual relationship, it was kind of it's own thing...and mostly done by crazy emperors or samurais (because nobody was gonna stop them) rather than ordinary people

 

also Native Americans thought Gay people were magical beings who had both male and female souls and basically politely forced them to dress in drag and preform a mix of feminine and masculine jobs

 

 

[mochi]

Unless you and Guliano had a previous conversation on that subject, nowhere in that post did he even imply that. He did speak out against Christian bigotry at the end.

 

What cultures were there where bisexuality was considered normal? Please give me examples besides the usual Greek, Roman, and Japanese pederasty. If it really was the norm in the majority of cultures as you claim, it shouldn't be hard for you find.

Also why is it every time I bring up the idea of a society where Gay people are treated like human beings you bring up pedophillia?, what's wrong with you?

[André Toulon]

either the one who says it's a choice IS Bi

 

Doesn't that pretty much contradict the notion that people get to choose their sexual identity......Or is that only a rule to keep straight people in line.

[Kagome-san101]

I'm a Christian and I believe you are born gay or transgender I do NOT think that those are "learned."

 

Jesus loves everyone!

 

You are who you are!

[GaiusIuliusCaesar]

Unless you and Guliano had a previous conversation on that subject, nowhere in that post did he even imply that. He did speak out against Christian bigotry at the end.

 

What cultures were there where bisexuality was considered normal? Please give me examples besides the usual Greek, Roman, and Japanese pederasty. If it really was the norm in the majority of cultures as you claim, it shouldn't be hard for you find.

 

I've mentioned it several times in tinychat, my basic premise for that is a study of roman emperors, who are probably the most well known group of people from that time period, and also the group of people most likely to behave in whatever way they damn well pleased.

 

Of all of them prior to the adoption of Christianity, only two weren't bisexual, Claudius who was strait, and mocked for it by biographers, and Hadrian who was gay, and also mocked for it. 

 

But as Mochi pointed out all literate societies had pretty tolerant attitudes toward sexuality. A few non literate ones also had orally transmitted concepts that convey the existence of non strait people as a non controversial subject.  Really if you want to find out this information you could try and do the research yourself, its kind of unfair to expect mochi or myself to educate you. Its readily available material, you could just google lgbt ancient history. or check a forum on cultural anthropology for a sexuality thread.

 

Also my name is spelled Giuliano.

[bnmjy]

Also why is it every time I bring up the idea of a society where Gay people are treated like human beings you bring up pedophillia?, what's wrong with you?

 

Don't even start this. Pederasty was the most socially acceptable form of homosexuality in many ancient cultures. I am not equating modern homosexual relationships with pedophilia. If you want to follow that line of thinking to discredit me, be my guest.

 

None of your examples proved that bisexuality was the norm anyway. I knew you were going to bring Native Americans up. All that showed was they had a surprisingly different attitude towards homosexuality. And she majority of people in Spartan and Japanese cultures were still heterosexual.

 

 

[JeNewBee]

bible belt a-holes claim it disproves the idea that you can be born Gay

 

what's your opinion?

Yeah they tried making that argument with a photos in a billboard that turned out to be one guy

Also he sued them because they didn't get his permission

Pretty sure it is in fact impossible for identical twins to be split sexuality wise

Some times one comes out before the other so that causes confusion with idiot

[JeNewBee]

Kagome-san101[/member]

When did you get here?

[bnmjy]

I've mentioned it several times in tinychat, my basic premise for that is a study of roman emperors, who are probably the most well known group of people from that time period, and also the group of people most likely to behave in whatever way they damn well pleased.

 

Of all of them prior to the adoption of Christianity, only two weren't bisexual, Claudius who was strait, and mocked for it by biographers, and Hadrian who was gay, and also mocked for it. 

 

But as Mochi pointed out all literate societies had pretty tolerant attitudes toward sexuality. A few non literate ones also had orally transmitted concepts that convey the existence of non strait people as a non controversial subject.  Really if you want to find out this information you could try and do the research yourself, its kind of unfair to expect mochi or myself to educate you. Its readily available material, you could just google lgbt ancient history. or check a forum on cultural anthropology for a sexuality thread.

 

Also my name is spelled Giuliano.

 

mochi mentioned nothing about societies being literate and the acceptance of homosexuality. All I am trying to make him do is mention a few examples of cultures where bisexuality was the norm and people weren't afraid to express their homosexual behaviors. If he can say most cultures had bisexuality as the norm, he should be able to back that claim up with examples.

 

But sure, place the onus on me and make me seem uneducated. Yeppers.

[Admin]

I think genetics and brain chemistry is complicated enough that the suggestion that it could be either one or varying combinations of those and other factors, depending upon the person and their makeup is more accurate perhaps than cheerleading for any particular social agenda.

 

[mochi]

Doesn't that pretty much contradict the notion that people get to choose their sexual identity......Or is that only a rule to keep straight people in line.

no because I don't believe sexuality is a choice

[Mini_ghost420]

twins aren't just carbon copies of each other. they are still individual people. so it proves nothing

[Admin]

twins aren't just carbon copies of each other. they are still individual people. so it proves nothing

 

read the OP again.

 

"Identical" twins share more genetic markers than another type of twin.

[Hornshire]

"Can be a choice" is not the same as "Is a choice"; just because something is "a" thing doesn't mean it is "the" thing.

 

On the flip side, to deny that fringe cases exist is no better than supposing they are the norm.

 

The nature of choice conflates the issue further, though. Because while the way one feels is seldom optional, the way one acts on given feelings always is. Unless you're a hard determinist, perhaps. So does "choosing to be" relate more to choosing to have feelings, or to choosing to behave in line with those feelings? Definitions are vastly more pliable than facts.

 

But at the end of the day, no one person can stand for everyone else. While it may bear resemblance to or share common themes with others', your experience, in actuality, is yours alone. So if you tell Us that you've made a choice, We'll take you at your word for it. And if instead you tell Us that you were born that way, again We'll take your word. But when it comes to broad statements that claim to be both universal and definitive, We remain skeptical.

[mochi]

"Can be a choice" is not the same as "Is a choice"; just because something is "a" thing doesn't mean it is "the" thing.

 

On the flip side, to deny that fringe cases exist is no better than supposing they are the norm.

 

The nature of choice conflates the issue further, though. Because while the way one feels is seldom optional, the way one acts on given feelings always is. Unless you're a hard determinist, perhaps. So does "choosing to be" relate more to choosing to have feelings, or to choosing to behave in line with those feelings? Definitions are vastly more pliable than facts.

 

But at the end of the day, no one person can stand for everyone else. While it may bear resemblance to or share common themes with others', your experience, in actuality, is yours alone. So if you tell Us that you've made a choice, We'll take you at your word for it. And if instead you tell Us that you were born that way, again We'll take your word. But when it comes to broad statements that claim to be both universal and definitive, We remain skeptical.

true

[Kagome-san101]

Kagome-san101[/member]

When did you get here?

 

HI jenewbee!!!!!!!

I got here Saturday

I came in as "mpop" but changed to my old sn so people would recognize me! <3 <3

[mochi]

read the OP again.

 

"Identical" twins share more genetic markers than another type of twin.

not every genetic marker though

 

even Identifal twins (as it turns out) can have some genetic variation from each other

 

so it kinda does prove nothing

[GaiusIuliusCaesar]

mochi mentioned nothing about societies being literate and the acceptance of homosexuality. All I am trying to make him do is mention a few examples of cultures where bisexuality was the norm and people weren't afraid to express their homosexual behaviors. If he can say most cultures had bisexuality as the norm, he should be able to back that claim up with examples.

 

But sure, place the onus on me and make me seem uneducated. Yeppers.

 

he mentioned three literate civilizations, I simply expanded on what he pointed out. The tradition of homo and bi sexuality among the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Japanese, and various other cultures too numerous to list is not in dispute or up for debate, I am not making you seem uneducated, on this subject you clearly are. 

[GaiusIuliusCaesar]

not every genetic marker though

 

even Identifal twins (as it turns out) can have some genetic variation from each other

 

so it kinda does prove nothing

 

Actually they are essentially clones but there are minor mutations that occur both in development and throughout life, moreover gene expression is an expanding field of study and is far from being understood in enough detail to make a determination on this particular case. It is fascinating though, I do hope they do fully peer reviewed twin studies on these two. I doubt we will discover anything significant but every little bit of data helps.

[Mini_ghost420]

read the OP again.

 

"Identical" twins share more genetic markers than another type of twin.

I know I still think the same thing. not everything that makes a person a person is genetic

[bnmjy]

he mentioned three literate civilizations, I simply expanded on what he pointed out. The tradition of homo and bi sexuality among the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Japanese, and various other cultures too numerous to list is not in dispute or up for debate, I am not making you seem uneducated, on this subject you clearly are.

 

Oh my God, I already know about homosexuality in those cultures. Perhaps I should be more clear. By norm, as mochi used it, he meant what most people in a society are. The majority of people in those cultures were not bisexual.

[mochi]

Actually they are essentially clones but there are minor mutations that occur both in development and throughout life, moreover gene expression is an expanding field of study and is far from being understood in enough detail to make a determination on this particular case. It is fascinating though, I do hope they do fully peer reviewed twin studies on these two. I doubt we will discover anything significant but every little bit of data helps.

I recall reading somewhere that the part of your brain responsible for allowing you to feel romantic love doesn't even develop until age 3 so....that could also be a factor

[mochi]

sometimes when you're trying to figure something out, you can't figure it out b/c there's a fundamental issue that you're missing. Like for example (and coincidentally example is another LGBT issue but just coincidentally) the trans bathroom & locker room thing. Everyone's trying to figure out what to do about it especially the locker room b/c a little boy could see a vagina or a little girl could see a penis. So the question seems to be which locker room do they use? But that's not a question that needs answering. Instead we should ask why is it ok for people to get naked in front of other ppl in a locker room when it's illegal and you'd be labeled a sex offender if you got naked out on the street? So the solution should be privacy stalls in locker rooms because that just makes way more sense.

 

So maybe the fundamental we're missing is that it doesn't matter one bit whatsoever. It's just a generalization to save time in conversation & dating. Again for example, if everybody has sexual preference what would an intersexed person with ambiguous genitalia and a 50/50 mix of female & male hormone be? how would you label their sexual preference regardless of whether it was for males, females, or whatever? It would be impossible for them to be "hetereosexual" and for them to be homosexual, they'd have to find and fuck someone with the same type & degree of intersexuality.

 

Trying to figure out if its environmental or biological is as much a waste of time as trying to figure out if preference for baths va showers is biological or environmental. The question we should be asking is why does it matter? And if you can't come up with a good answer to that, then fuck trying to actually figure it out. It may be that it matters for some reason but I can't think of any.

I suppose

 

that said, Intersexed and genderfluid/adendered people usually just use whatever sexuality label feels most correct

 

there's even some genderfluid and intersexed people who just call themselves "queer"

[GaiusIuliusCaesar]

sometimes when you're trying to figure something out, you can't figure it out b/c there's a fundamental issue that you're missing. Like for example (and coincidentally example is another LGBT issue but just coincidentally) the trans bathroom & locker room thing. Everyone's trying to figure out what to do about it especially the locker room b/c a little boy could see a vagina or a little girl could see a penis. So the question seems to be which locker room do they use? But that's not a question that needs answering. Instead we should ask why is it ok for people to get naked in front of other ppl in a locker room when it's illegal and you'd be labeled a sex offender if you got naked out on the street? So the solution should be privacy stalls in locker rooms because that just makes way more sense.

 

So maybe the fundamental we're missing is that it doesn't matter one bit whatsoever. It's just a generalization to save time in conversation & dating. Again for example, if everybody has sexual preference what would an intersexed person with ambiguous genitalia and a 50/50 mix of female & male hormone be? how would you label their sexual preference regardless of whether it was for males, females, or whatever? It would be impossible for them to be "hetereosexual" and for them to be homosexual, they'd have to find and fuck someone with the same type & degree of intersexuality.

 

Trying to figure out if its environmental or biological is as much a waste of time as trying to figure out if preference for baths va showers is biological or environmental. The question we should be asking is why does it matter? And if you can't come up with a good answer to that, then fuck trying to actually figure it out. It may be that it matters for some reason but I can't think of any.

 

I have two incredibly simple answers to that,

 

1. we as a society, need to stop being so freaked out and offended regarding nudity

 

2. sexuality, should cease to be a concern by which we judge our existence. If you are attracted to a person, you are attracted to them, it shouldn't matter what is in their pants, or how long their hair is, or anything else regarding their gender idenity.

 

also I'm drunk, in tc at the moment. I'd have something more profound and wordy if not for that. 

[JeNewBee]

HI jenewbee!!!!!!!

I got here Saturday

I came in as "mpop" but changed to my old sn so people would recognize me! <3 <3

Good to see you again Kagome-san101[/member] 

[Kagome-san101]

Good to see you again Kagome-san101[/member] 

 

it is good to see you, too my dear!  <3