TYT, Armenian genocide and transphobia

[naraku360]

5 hours ago, 1pooh4u said:

TYT is one of the more honest media outlets the criticize EVERYONE and it’s refreshing 

I'd be cautious with TYT. They've recently been pandering to anti-LGBT, especially trans, crowds and signaling a right-wing shift may be on its way.

They aren't all the way gone yet, but historically liberal starts going after LGBT or a racial minority, then a couple years down the line they're a full on MAGA.

Not saying to not watch them. Just that I'm getting them bad vibes recently.

[1pooh4u]

4 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

I'd be cautious with TYT. They've recently been pandering to anti-LGBT, especially trans, crowds and signaling a right-wing shift may be on its way.

They aren't all the way gone yet, but historically liberal starts going after LGBT or a racial minority, then a couple years down the line they're a full on MAGA.

Not saying to not watch them. Just that I'm getting them bad vibes recently.

What have they said that was anti trans or anti LGBTQ?  I never heard anything anti trans from them or anti LGBTQ or seen them ever pander to the right in any way whatsoever 

[Insipid]

2 hours ago, 1pooh4u said:

What have they said that was anti trans or anti LGBTQ?  I never heard anything anti trans from them or anti LGBTQ or seen them ever pander to the right in any way whatsoever 

Just letting you know, the Young Turks committed the Armenian genocide. The news outlet has been asked by Armenians to change their name, but they refuse. Cenk Uygur has only just recently acknowledged the Armenian genocide of ever happening, and had previously outright denied the genocide.

[1pooh4u]

8 hours ago, Insipid said:

Just letting you know, the Young Turks committed the Armenian genocide. The news outlet has been asked by Armenians to change their name, but they refuse. Cenk Uygur has only just recently acknowledged the Armenian genocide of ever happening, and had previously outright denied the genocide.

They’re not changing the name because they explained the name it has nothing to do with the Armenian genocide and he’s going by the dictionary meaning which means a progressive person eager for change.  he’s long since disavowed his past beliefs I think the show speaks for itself. Do I agree with them 100% no. I definitely don’t agree with Cenk on affirmative action but if he says “In college I wrote an I’ll advised paper” I’m not holding it against him. He grew up in a Turkish household hearing just one side of the story. besides what he says and does now with his network is what matters and yes I’d say the same thing had it been a denial of the Holocaust. 
 

that’s the problem with people they wanna throw the baby out with the bath water.  they bitch and cry for change but then don’t want to forgive people that actually change? That’s dumb. Wtf do people protest for then? Just to bitch but for no one to change at all?

[1pooh4u]

I’m also not gonna say they’re transphobic because someone said common sense policies should be applied when it comes to transgender women in sports because some sports bodies had rules allowing for anyone to play the sport as the gender they currently identify regardless of stage of treatment or medical intervention. Anyone saying that makes someone transphobic is ridiculous.  

[Insipid]

Ok, fine people and things can change. They need to change the name of their network, which as I said is offensive to many Armenians, regardless of Cenk's reasoning.. Then I have no room to bitch.

[1pooh4u]

It’s his network and they’ve done and continue to things that prove their intentions.  Maybe he will change the name someday but it’s a disservice to not listen to them because one definition of TYT is “a nationalist party of Turkey” now can we discuss how no one faced any consequences for the genocide? Sure but that is a separate issue having nothing to do with the network. 

[naraku360]

13 hours ago, 1pooh4u said:

What have they said that was anti trans or anti LGBTQ?  I never heard anything anti trans from them or anti LGBTQ or seen them ever pander to the right in any way whatsoever 

I'm not going to be the best at explaining, so pick your poison:

Shark goes over civil rights movements and historical context for the rhetoric.

 

Mike goes over why he left TYT and the other recent LGBT departures.

 

Vaush's coverage is pretty thorough for fully contextualizing the conversation.

 

Sam Seder and Emma Vigeland talk about it around halfway in and go into probably the most depth for the reasons they believe TYT has been acting in bad faith on the subject within the shortest amount of time, but I felt the segment needed a bit more context.

 

I know Mike from the Humanist Report, Emma from Majority Report, and (to a lesser extent) Vaush are speaking from perspectives of (former?) friends of Ana and Cenk, and it doesn't seem to be coming from a point of contempt or insincerity. I don't know if Shark has any relationship with TYT, but I thought his section about civil rights movements was great and he came off as the least hostile perspective from the outsider view.

 

Sorry for the flood of long-ass videos. It's a lot and I don't think I'd be very good at conveying the points personally.

Edited July 26, 2023 by naraku360

[1pooh4u]

@naraku360 I’m gonna break down this piece by piece firstly Ana and Cenk vehemently spoke against the website ruling. I absolutely disagree with Cenk on affirmative action. His view seems to be that it’s a stain forever invalidating the achievements of minorities that benefited from it. My huge problem with that view is we shouldn’t get rid of a well intentioned policy because racist assholes are gonna be racist assholes.  Here is the actual piece 

his comments on who brought the case up I also don’t agree with because it ignores that conservative white people searched high and low until they found an Asian willing to bring up the case 

 

[1pooh4u]

Ana and Cenk have done plenty defending of the LGBTQ community, acting as though her desire to not be called a “birthing person” or whatever undoes all that isn’t fair to say. Idw to be called those things either but I wouldn’t publicly announce it because it’s the least important thing and it can be dealt with later.  Hopefully at some point she will apologize for engaging in distraction and doubling down after members of the community graciously explained why she fucked up.  They’ve done way more right than wrong. I’ll come back later for the rest 

Edited July 26, 2023 by 1pooh4u

[naraku360]

43 minutes ago, 1pooh4u said:

Ana and Cenk have done plenty defending of the LGBTQ community, acting as though her desire to not be called a “birthing person” or whatever undoes all that isn’t fair to say. Idw to be called those things either but I wouldn’t publicly announce it because it’s the least important thing and it can be dealt with later.  Hopefully at some point she will apologize for engaging in distraction and doubling down after members of the community graciously explained why she fucked up.  They’ve done way more right than wrong. I’ll come back later for the rest 

I do agree that they've done more good than bad. The birthing person thing is just a legal and medical term to encompass the broadest number of people possible. For instance, a cis-woman would not be referred to as a birthing person if they are post-menopause and can no longer have babies, while a trans-man may be referred to as a birthing person if they are still able to become pregnant.

It's less a matter of replacing the word "woman" with "birthing person" as it is a means to clearly describe a spectrum of people who can or cannot become pregnant regardless of the individual circumstances within very specific settings. I've never heard it used in a casual way, outside of discussions about the phrase itself.

The disappointment is mostly that I would've expected more from them and there have been a lot of cases where this path leads to the "why I left the left" (the Vaush thumbnail is just a meme, Ana didn't actually do any PragerU videos) political shift.

I can't say I'm incredibly knowledgeable of TYT abd mostly have liked Ana, but I wanted to give a heads up on some of the recent red flags.

Edited July 26, 2023 by naraku360

[Lynnrael]

I've heard vague things about TYT getting transphobic but honestly they have so little respect among people in the far left that I never really cared about them anyways. they're liberals through and through and committed to "reform" and not any real substantial change to any of the fundamental power structures that make our society (and from which all oppression stems). 

i may actually need to watch that vaush video which is funny because i absolutely despise vaush and the vast majority of his fanbase. but i haven't seen anything by leftists i respect on the matter and haven't cared to investigate much. when cenk started crying about people calling themselves communist i lost any remaining respect i might have had, if there was any left

Edited July 26, 2023 by Lynnrael

[naraku360]

33 minutes ago, Lynnrael said:

I've heard vague things about TYT getting transphobic but honestly they have so little respect among people in the far left that I never really cared about them anyways. they're liberals through and through and committed to "reform" and not any real substantial change to any of the fundamental power structures that make our society (and from which all oppression stems). 

i may actually need to watch that vaush video which is funny because i absolutely despise vaush and the vast majority of his fanbase. but i haven't seen anything by leftists i respect on the matter and haven't cared to investigate much. when cenk started crying about people calling themselves communist i lost any remaining respect i might have had, if there was any left

Vaush gets way more flack than deserved. He's a bit crass, but is generally more nuanced than most and has had numerous really fucked smear campaigns against him.

Plus, he's mellowed out over the years so the content tends to be less offputting these days.

Edited July 26, 2023 by naraku360

[[classic swim]]

Cenk just has a cunty face and attitude.

[Lynnrael]

2 hours ago, naraku360 said:

Vaush gets way more flack than deserved. He's a bit crass, but is generally more nuanced than most and has had numerous really fucked smear campaigns against him.

Plus, he's mellowed out over the years so the content tends to be less offputting these days.

i think he deserves the flak. his insistent usage of slurs, that goes along with his ableism is reason enough for me to never like him, even if he's "mellowed out". but that aside, it's his fans that really make me not like him. they rabidly protect him against any and all criticism and are generally ableist, racist, sexist, and all around shitty people. perhaps it's just the ones that were on Twitter when i still frequented it, but they've come out of the woodwork to be insufferable shits on Reddit and imgur too. even if vaush was perfect, the fact that people like that follow him so uncritically is reason enough for me to not like him. he's not doing the left any good by bringing these kinds of useless assholes in, he's just making it worse.

that said he did make at least one useful and worthwhile piece of content, he had an interview with Zoe Baker who is amazing. though i understand he also occasionally platforms fascists under the guise of beating them in debates, which is not good but idk if he still does that.

edit: and he supported Keffals, so if he's been targeted by smear campaigns he's also a hypocrite for backing someone who routinely calls for harassment campaigns against black trans people

Edited July 26, 2023 by Lynnrael

[1pooh4u]

3 hours ago, naraku360 said:

I do agree that they've done more good than bad. The birthing person thing is just a legal and medical term to encompass the broadest number of people possible. For instance, a cis-woman would not be referred to as a birthing person if they are post-menopause and can no longer have babies, while a trans-man may be referred to as a birthing person if they are still able to become pregnant.

It's less a matter of replacing the word "woman" with "birthing person" as it is a means to clearly describe a spectrum of people who can or cannot become pregnant regardless of the individual circumstances within very specific settings. I've never heard it used in a casual way, outside of discussions about the phrase itself.

The disappointment is mostly that I would've expected more from them and there have been a lot of cases where this path leads to the "why I left the left" (the Vaush thumbnail is just a meme, Ana didn't actually do any PragerU videos) political shift.

I can't say I'm incredibly knowledgeable of TYT abd mostly have liked Ana, but I wanted to give a heads up on some of the recent red flags.

And she definitely addressed that issue that yes, for legal medical and technical reasons all language should be inclusive so no one is denied services or access to proper healthcare and such. I’m think her last sentence of the tweet was a little rough and she should apologize for that. I still haven’t watched all your examples cuz I been watching TYT a long time and it’s likely I actually saw the entire piece or know how the tweet may have come about. I think around that time some major university made a list of words and terms we shouldn’t say and what to use instead and the list was ridiculous. 

[1pooh4u]

4 hours ago, Lynnrael said:

I've heard vague things about TYT getting transphobic but honestly they have so little respect among people in the far left that I never really cared about them anyways. they're liberals through and through and committed to "reform" and not any real substantial change to any of the fundamental power structures that make our society (and from which all oppression stems). 

i may actually need to watch that vaush video which is funny because i absolutely despise vaush and the vast majority of his fanbase. but i haven't seen anything by leftists i respect on the matter and haven't cared to investigate much. when cenk started crying about people calling themselves communist i lost any remaining respect i might have had, if there was any left

They don’t get the respect from the left?  Maybe because the far left has actually lost their minds with turning on each other and TYT is a news network not pandering actually to anyone. They dislike both parties for different reasons. They know they aren’t liked by the far left and they don’t want to be liked by them because they’re going to tell the truth.  I never hear them say anything transphobic. Feeling offended because the word “woman” is starting to become a dirty word is not transphobic.  Thinking it’s ridiculous for makers of maxi pads and tampons to be afraid to say they’re a product for women is not transphobic.   I don’t think a shady past or one dumb tweet with a double down makes people transphobic.  

Edited July 26, 2023 by 1pooh4u

[1pooh4u]

2 hours ago, [classic swim] said:

Cenk just has a cunty face and attitude.

He does yell a little too much but if I want to know which politicians are full of shit and which legislation is gonna do what, I’m watching TYT.  
TYT

Indisputable

The Damage Report 

are the 3 shows I watch

[scoobdog]

16 hours ago, Insipid said:

Just letting you know, the Young Turks committed the Armenian genocide. The news outlet has been asked by Armenians to change their name, but they refuse. Cenk Uygur has only just recently acknowledged the Armenian genocide of ever happening, and had previously outright denied the genocide.

I don't really want to wade into this since any outlet with an aggressive stance is bound to fall short in a few areas, and I'm certainly not singling you out since you're merely relaying what is being said in the Armenian American community.  But...

It's particularly ridiculous for Armenians to claim the use of "Turk" is offensive.  The term itself isn't exclusive to the identity that the Ottoman Empire was forcing Armenians to conform to, and it's not a specific purpose pejorative term that can be applies like the n word for black or n** for Japanese.  What Armenian Americans are doing is coopting a broad term for their specific (and very legitimate) cause, which while well-meaning as a means of raising awareness, is counter productive on the whole.

[Insipid]

Absolute shit take.

[Lynnrael]

1 hour ago, 1pooh4u said:

They don’t get the respect from the left?  Maybe because the far left has actually lost their minds with turning on each other and TYT is a news network not pandering actually to anyone. They dislike both parties for different reasons. They know they aren’t liked by the far left and they don’t want to be liked by them because they’re going to tell the truth.  I never hear them say anything transphobic. Feeling offended because the word “woman” is starting to become a dirty word is not transphobic.  Thinking it’s ridiculous for makers of maxi pads and tampons to be afraid to say they’re a product for women is not transphobic.   I don’t think a shady past or one dumb tweet with a double down makes people transphobic.  

i didn't say they were transphobic, because i honestly haven't cared about them in years and haven't bothered to wade into whatever discourse they drummed up to stay relevant. i will say that my very basic understanding is that what's her face decided to make a problem where there was none by misunderstanding the reason for saying birthing persons and yeah, i can see why she'd be criticized but i genuinely don't want to care enough to form a full opinion on the matter. 

woman is not a bad word, I'm trans and call myself a woman. when people use language like "birthing people" they are not referring to cis women specifically, they are referring to everyone who capable of bearing children. i know this has been explained now as it was when the discourse around this first came up but we all know it doesn't matter. the only thing that matters to fans of things when this kind of shit crops up is preserving their image of their favorite celebrity people.

they don't get respect from the left because they parrot establishment liberal talking points. when i say left i dont mean progressives and liberals, i mean anarchists and communists and socialists. it's a vague, nebulous term and not always useful but that's how i use it. I'm sure plenty of liberals and progressives have quite a lot of respect for them for whatever reason

[DragonSinger]

10 minutes ago, Lynnrael said:

i didn't say they were transphobic, because i honestly haven't cared about them in years and haven't bothered to wade into whatever discourse they drummed up to stay relevant. i will say that my very basic understanding is that what's her face decided to make a problem where there was none by misunderstanding the reason for saying birthing persons and yeah, i can see why she'd be criticized but i genuinely don't want to care enough to form a full opinion on the matter. 

woman is not a bad word, I'm trans and call myself a woman. when people use language like "birthing people" they are not referring to cis women specifically, they are referring to everyone who capable of bearing children. i know this has been explained now as it was when the discourse around this first came up but we all know it doesn't matter. the only thing that matters to fans of things when this kind of shit crops up is preserving their image of their favorite celebrity people.

they don't get respect from the left because they parrot establishment liberal talking points. when i say left i dont mean progressives and liberals, i mean anarchists and communists and socialists. it's a vague, nebulous term and not always useful but that's how i use it. I'm sure plenty of liberals and progressives have quite a lot of respect for them for whatever reason

You know what, I'll say they're transphobic because they are. None of these people give a shit about girls or women's sports and use very out there cases to create rage clicks which endangers the trans community. So fuck all of them.

2 hours ago, 1pooh4u said:

They don’t get the respect from the left?  Maybe because the far left has actually lost their minds with turning on each other and TYT is a news network not pandering actually to anyone. They dislike both parties for different reasons. They know they aren’t liked by the far left and they don’t want to be liked by them because they’re going to tell the truth.  I never hear them say anything transphobic. Feeling offended because the word “woman” is starting to become a dirty word is not transphobic.  Thinking it’s ridiculous for makers of maxi pads and tampons to be afraid to say they’re a product for women is not transphobic.   I don’t think a shady past or one dumb tweet with a double down makes people transphobic.  

Woman isn't a bad word and concentrating on useless shit like that parroted in the news doesn't accomplish anything. Does it give their programs more funding for equipment and better research into nutrition that isn't focused on cis dudes? No. Does this address in any way the predators rife in sports? No(You may not have brought it up, but everyone going on about this in the news does). Are we getting free pads/tampons because trans men and nonbinary folks being included in advertising those products offends some people? No.

This is why I rarely watch cable or online news programs with talking personalities. Their entire aim is emotional manipulation and shilling themselves as products for as much money as possible. They get you amped up over bullshit and platform any asshole who'll get them ratings.

[scoobdog]

2 hours ago, Insipid said:

Absolute shit take.

I stand by it.

[naraku360]

6 hours ago, Lynnrael said:

i think he deserves the flak. his insistent usage of slurs, that goes along with his ableism is reason enough for me to never like him, even if he's "mellowed out". but that aside, it's his fans that really make me not like him. they rabidly protect him against any and all criticism and are generally ableist, racist, sexist, and all around shitty people. perhaps it's just the ones that were on Twitter when i still frequented it, but they've come out of the woodwork to be insufferable shits on Reddit and imgur too. even if vaush was perfect, the fact that people like that follow him so uncritically is reason enough for me to not like him. he's not doing the left any good by bringing these kinds of useless assholes in, he's just making it worse.

I don't think this is a particularly compelling case for even disliking a person. I like a lot of things with terrible fanbases. Most people, in general, are pretty stupid and when you have hundreds of thousands of viewers, especially in political fields, you'll always have dumbasses in the audience. I've never seen him encourage harassment after several years of viewership, and has been consistent on opposing harassment as far as I've seen.
I've posted some pretty shitty stuff on these boards and he's been a major factor in moving me away from bigotry in general. Everyone has biases and I probably would still have more of the systemic bigotry without his content and his contemporaries.
I haven't seen him be particularly sexist/racist/ableist in any serious capacity. As in, like making a comment that's clearly a joke, but then following up with a thorough explanation of what was wrong with the belief expressed within the joke isn't something I'mespecially concerned with. So instead of, say, a Steven Crowder type who simply hides behind "just joking lol" as cover for views he plainly holds abd defends, Vaush is typically quite good at making it clear when he's serious or not, and the tend to have very different values than the jokes themselves.
I believe he's also disavowed most of his past use of slurs, though he does still use the r-slur if that's a concern.

6 hours ago, Lynnrael said:

of content, he had an interview with Zoe Baker who is amazing. though i understand he also occasionally platforms fascists under the guise of beating them in debates, which is not good but idk if he still does that.

That's an incredibly uncharitable characterization of debates. The point of having those debates isn't to platform them, nor convince the opposing person within the debate of ideals; it's to move the audience away from fascism. You can say, "I don't want nazis on the left!" But, hypothetically, if Person A watches fascist comtent and sees the left exclusively through the fascist's lens and becomes more extreme in their fascistic views, is that better than Person B who sees someone from the left make a strong case against fascism directly to the person pushing fascism and then grows to disavow fascism?
I believe people are able to change and people aren't born nazis. People are conditioned into nazism and turning a blind eye to it, rather than confronting and pulling people away from it, seems like a good way for nazism to spread.
There isn't a binary between nazi and not-nazi. It's a process to radicalize people, and it's a process to deradicalize them. Those people tend to be isolated to their little angry bubbles where the only alternative perspective is controlled by bad faith actors, like Ben Shapiro or Steven Crowder. He has been wrong on it before, for instance with Shoe, but is it better to leave someone who expresses a desire to become a better person out to dry over mistakes in they want to amend simply out of fear that you'll be burned? The fact he's still charitable to people after Shoe showed her ass may seem dumb or naive, but what I've learned in no small part because of the content is that sometimes all someone needs to be pulled out of the alt-right is a little bit of charitability and kindness. The majority of bigots aren't evil genocidal maniacs; they're being misinformed and reacting to the only things they know. It's something that helped me pull several of my closest friends away from the alt-right.

6 hours ago, Lynnrael said:

edit: and he supported Keffals, so if he's been targeted by smear campaigns he's also a hypocrite for backing someone who routinely calls for harassment campaigns against black trans people

I don't know much about Keffals other than her being doxxed for being trans. I also don't know how that would be hypocritical? Like, this comes off as a tepid endorsement of harassing someone in retaliation.
When I talk about smear campaigns, I mean stuff like clipping him out of context to frame him as a pedo or shit like that - a thing that both the right and left take turns doing. When I look up Keffals, all that comes up in regards to harassment is like her being swatted or ratioing Destiny for violating some hatespeech rules, but I don't know the legitimacy of that. I can't attest to the reason for it, though it wouldn't shock me if Destiny was actually being a piece of shit.

It really seems like you've put a complex person into a very narrow framework. I don't say this as in "Vaush in particular is a deep, complex person" and more as a broader statement. Neither you nor I personally know the guy, we can only extrapolate intent off what's publicly known. He is pretty good about addressing past mistakes and the content itself is quite different from 2 or 3 years ago.

Edited July 27, 2023 by naraku360

[Lynnrael]

i don't really need to have like, a solid case for not liking someone, but in this case i think it's fair. his humor and content courts a particular kind of person that is toxic and unwilling to take a nuanced look at him or accept anything that contradicts their views. a lot of the former nazis aren't any better than they were before and haven't done any of the work to address their racism, and sexism, and they regularly seem to embrace the ableism. and yes, the r word is a slur, and I've heard him often employ ableism to make his case. does he not routinely paint the right as unintelligent? accuse them of brain damage? his content in the past courts toxic people, though i guess it's fair to say that could just be debate bro culture as a whole. 

deradicalization is great, but it's not a reliable way to fight fascism and never has been. it's a very individualized response to broader systemic problems. it's also important to note that bigots do have agency, that no one ends up a bigot without having some responsibility for being that. I've noticed a lot of the people he's "saved" have been under the impression that they don't need take responsibility for that, that they don't need to do any further work beyond moving left, and that's a problem. 

but really, i just don't like him and that's not a big deal. i wouldn't pay attention to him at all if any time someone mentioned any criticism of him people didn't jump in to defend him debate bro style. maybe i just hate debate bros and debate bro culture. either way, you're not gonna make me like him.

as for Keffals, it's probably not going to show up in search and i really don't want to go into details about it because the person targeted is still receiving harassment. that's more a personal reason based on some Twitter drama i guess. but the fans who engaged in that targeted harassment were often former nazi debate bro types who used fascistic language and engaged in whatever they could to win. most of them were fans of both vaush and Keffals. but again, it's kinda irrelevant. probably shouldn't have said anything

Edited July 27, 2023 by Lynnrael

[Lynnrael]

3 hours ago, DragonSinger said:

You know what, I'll say they're transphobic because they are. None of these people give a shit about girls or women's sports and use very out there cases to create rage clicks which endangers the trans community. So fuck all of them.

Woman isn't a bad word and concentrating on useless shit like that parroted in the news doesn't accomplish anything. Does it give their programs more funding for equipment and better research into nutrition that isn't focused on cis dudes? No. Does this address in any way the predators rife in sports? No(You may not have brought it up, but everyone going on about this in the news does). Are we getting free pads/tampons because trans men and nonbinary folks being included in advertising those products offends some people? No.

This is why I rarely watch cable or online news programs with talking personalities. Their entire aim is emotional manipulation and shilling themselves as products for as much money as possible. They get you amped up over bullshit and platform any asshole who'll get them ratings.

well said, i 100% agree with everything you've said here

[naraku360]

59 minutes ago, Lynnrael said:

i don't really need to have like, a solid case for not liking someone, but in this case i think it's fair. his humor and content courts a particular kind of person that is toxic and unwilling to take a nuanced look at him or accept anything that contradicts their views. a lot of the former nazis aren't any better than they were before and haven't done any of the work to address their racism, and sexism, and they regularly seem to embrace the ableism. and yes, the r word is a slur, and I've heard him often employ ableism to make his case. does he not routinely paint the right as unintelligent? accuse them of brain damage? his content in the past courts toxic people, though i guess it's fair to say that could just be debate bro culture as a whole. 

deradicalization is great, but it's not a reliable way to fight fascism and never has been. it's a very individualized response to broader systemic problems. it's also important to note that bigots do have agency, that no one ends up a bigot without having some responsibility for being that. I've noticed a lot of the people he's "saved" have been under the impression that they don't need take responsibility for that, that they don't need to do any further work beyond moving left, and that's a problem. 

but really, i just don't like him and that's not a big deal. i wouldn't pay attention to him at all if any time someone mentioned any criticism of him people didn't jump in to defend him debate bro style. maybe i just hate debate bros and debate bro culture. either way, you're not gonna make me like him.

I'm not trying to make you like him. I'm engaging with the criticisms being presented. And again, you're basing this off Twitter users. Literally one of the worst places to get an opinion of any fanbase ever. Sure, berating conservatives isn't charitable. Charitability isn't unconditional acceptance. There are people who don't, and likely never will, deserve charitability, like throw a dart at a board full of Republican pundits and you're like guaranteed to land on someone who doesn't. That aside, yes, the brain damage comments do take it too far.

Do you believe rehibilitation for criminals is bad? Like, someone did a bad thing once and now they can never be forgiven? Where do you draw the line? How bad does the crime have to be?

Right now, you're using a sweeping generalization to describe a rather wide range of people and calling them irredeemable. You've identified bigotry against conservatives as bad, so why would what you're doing with vague buzzwords like "debate bros" be different? "I hate the fans," but, like, have I been overly unreasonable to you?

I didn't start this particular conversation. Despite personally believing TYT has shown itself to be transphobic, I'm not going to force it down Pooh or Disco's throat. I gave a heads up on some behavior recently that's repelled me from them, Pooh asked what it was about, I supplied a few resources and tried to give a little highlight of what may be of interest in each video. I have lost respect for both Cenk and Ana; however it's not my duty to monitor what Pooh or Disco watch nor control their views. I didn't come in and say, "I despise TYT but also have limited knowledge of them, also fans of them suck monkey butt," then complain about the debate bro fanboy defending a person they evidently like. It's up to them if they want to change their mind on TYT and ranting at them instead of presenting what I know, giving the most detailed coverage I can since I'm not confident I'd to be able to fully express my angle very well.

I expected Pooh and/or Disco would likely respond, I tried to give a thorough response, and am more than willing to engage with whatever they have to say about it. I don't drop in to declare I hate the thing you like without a firm reason to do so, and being aggressive toward them ober it would only cause them to be defensive. Who does that help?

I think TYT is making dangerous content, so I let my peeps know about the concern. I don't assume if someone replies to me in such a way that the expectation is to be ignored or told how cool they are for dumping on my post.

I don't think I've attacked you, and if it came off that way it wasn't intentional.

These walls of text aren't "debate bro culture," by the way. I've been building them walls with reckless abandon since 2003.

Edited July 27, 2023 by naraku360

[Lynnrael]

i really really really cannot express how much i don't want to care about vaush. his ableism is enough for me to not like him and I'm just going to leave it at that. i just do not want to care, I'm sorry i don't like your streamer guy

[naraku360]

18 minutes ago, Lynnrael said:

i really really really cannot express how much i don't want to care about vaush. his ableism is enough for me to not like him and I'm just going to leave it at that. i just do not want to care, I'm sorry i don't like your streamer guy

I explicitly said I wasn't trying to make you like anyone.

Several times.

But yes, you clearly don't want to care, which is why you started this conversation on your own accord. Unprovoked.

Edited July 27, 2023 by naraku360

[Lynnrael]

his repeated ableism is very upsetting to me, so when he's mentioned i feel like I have to say something. i do care, obviously, because his use of slurs, and the way he talks about brain damage is harmful. i don't want to care because it's always like this, every single time. i don't have the energy to do these silly debates that his fans always think are so important. i just need to remember to shut up about it, i guess. y'all win, no more criticism ever

[naraku360]

25 minutes ago, Lynnrael said:

his repeated ableism is very upsetting to me, so when he's mentioned i feel like I have to say something. i do care, obviously, because his use of slurs, and the way he talks about brain damage is harmful. i don't want to care because it's always like this, every single time. i don't have the energy to do these silly debates that his fans always think are so important. i just need to remember to shut up about it, i guess. y'all win, no more criticism ever

I'm sorry if I upset you. I was responding to what was said and didn't know it would be a problem. I'm pretty sure I have some mild autism and have always had a tendency to go on long tangents.

It's pretty unfair to assume I can't accept criticism and want you to just shut up. I wasn't even wanting to have a debate. I thought it was a conversation.

Edited July 27, 2023 by naraku360

[Lynnrael]

8 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

I'm sorry if I upset you. I was responding to what was said and didn't know it would be a problem. I'm pretty sure I have some mild autism and have always had a tendency to go on long tangents.

It's pretty unfair to assume I can't accept criticism and want you to just shut up. I wasn't even wanting to have a debate. I thought it was a conversation.

it wasn't debate, except it was, and it went just like it seems to every single time. I'm more frustrated with myself because i know I'm going to be held to a debate level of standard where i have to prove every statement and every thing i say is picked apart if i mention the guy. not that that's what you were intentionally doing, but it felt like that. you seem pretty cool and I'm just taking my frustrations from past encounters out on you, which really isn't fair. 

i wish i had the energy to discuss the rest but i don't. and that frustrates me too. i still think he does more harm than good but I'm just not going to be able to explain why in a satisfactory way. sorry for being weird about it

[naraku360]

2 minutes ago, Lynnrael said:

it wasn't debate, except it was, and it went just like it seems to every single time. I'm more frustrated with myself because i know I'm going to be held to a debate level of standard where i have to prove every statement and every thing i say is picked apart if i mention the guy. not that that's what you were intentionally doing, but it felt like that. you seem pretty cool and I'm just taking my frustrations from past encounters out on you, which really isn't fair. 

i wish i had the energy to discuss the rest but i don't. and that frustrates me too. i still think he does more harm than good but I'm just not going to be able to explain why in a satisfactory way. sorry for being weird about it

It's cool, I think there was some of that going on over here too, since he is definitely divisive. Sometimes more understandably than others, and I do agree he can cross the line.

[scoobdog]

See, @Vela... this is where a hearty "Shut Up, Scoob" at Raku would be well placed.

[naraku360]

shut up scoob

[DragonSinger]

26 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

I don't think this is a particularly compelling case for even disliking a person. I like a lot of things with terrible fanbases. Most people, in general, are pretty stupid and when you have hundreds of thousands of viewers, especially in political fields, you'll always have dumbasses in the audience. I've never seen him encourage harassment after several years of viewership, and has been consistent on opposing harassment as far as I've seen.
I've posted some pretty shitty stuff on these boards and he's been a major factor in moving me away from bigotry in general. Everyone has biases and I probably would still have more of the systemic bigotry without his content and his contemporaries.
I haven't seen him be particularly sexist/racist/ableist in any serious capacity. As in, like making a comment that's clearly a joke, but then following up with a thorough explanation of what was wrong with the belief expressed within the joke isn't something I'mespecially concerned with. So instead of, say, a Steven Crowder type who simply hides behind "just joking lol" as cover for views he plainly holds abd defends, Vaush is typically quite good at making it clear when he's serious or not, and the tend to have very different values than the jokes themselves.
I believe he's also disavowed most of his past use of slurs, though he does still use the r-slur if that's a concern.

That's an incredibly uncharitable characterization of debates. The point of having those debates isn't to platform them, nor convince the opposing person within the debate of ideals; it's to move the audience away from fascism. You can say, "I don't want nazis on the left!" But, hypothetically, if Person A watches fascist comtent and sees the left exclusively through the fascist's lens and becomes more extreme in their fascistic views, is that better than Person B who sees someone from the left make a strong case against fascism directly to the person pushing fascism and then grows to disavow fascism?
I believe people are able to change and people aren't born nazis. People are conditioned into nazism and turning a blind eye to it, rather than confronting and pulling people away from it, seems like a good way for nazism to spread.
There isn't a binary between nazi and not-nazi. It's a process to radicalize people, and it's a process to deradicalize them. Those people tend to be isolated to their little angry bubbles where the only alternative perspective is controlled by bad faith actors, like Ben Shapiro or Steven Crowder. He has been wrong on it before, for instance with Shoe, but is it better to leave someone who expresses a desire to become a better person out to dry over mistakes in they want to amend simply out of fear that you'll be burned? The fact he's still charitable to people after Shoe showed her ass may seem dumb or naive, but what I've learned in no small part because of the content is that sometimes all someone needs to be pulled out of the alt-right is a little bit of charitability and kindness. The majority of bigots aren't evil genocidal maniacs; they're being misinformed and reacting to the only things they know. It's something that helped me pull several of my closest friends away from the alt-right.

I don't know much about Keffals other than her being doxxed for being trans. I also don't know how that would be hypocritical? Like, this comes off as a tepid endorsement of harassing someone in retaliation.
When I talk about smear campaigns, I mean stuff like clipping him out of context to frame him as a pedo or shit like that - a thing that both the right and left take turns doing. When I look up Keffals, all that comes up in regards to harassment is like her being swatted or ratioing Destiny for violating some hatespeech rules, but I don't know the legitimacy of that. I can't attest to the reason for it, though it wouldn't shock me if Destiny was actually being a piece of shit.

It really seems like you've put a complex person into a very narrow framework. I don't say this as in "Vaush in particular is a deep, complex person" and more as a broader statement. Neither you nor I personally know the guy, we can only extrapolate intent off what's publicly known.

Both Vaush and Keffals are on my list(mental rolodex of assholes not to boost and predators/abusers), and I double-checked Twitter where I have both of them muted. I don't remember why Vaush was added but it was within the year. Keffals has a checkmark and a note of racism by their name. They may have had better motives in the past, but becoming internet personalities will corrupt you quick the larger your audience becomes.

I'm not quoting that long ass post you made, but it's been proven that debating human rights is utter bullshit and platforming assholes makes shit worse. Maybe you got some learning experiences from watching stuff like that, but in the end, douches like Shapiro, Rogan, Jones, etc. made their careers this way which is in no way a net positive. Fan behavior on Twitter is a good way to see into those personalities too because keeping fanbases in check is part of the job once you start getting a lot of attention. It's a decently reliable red flag if someone's fanbase are a bunch of douches on social media. There's usually something in their rhetoric that encourages that behavior or they're apathetic to harm that doesn't affect them.

[DragonSinger]

3 hours ago, Lynnrael said:

it wasn't debate, except it was, and it went just like it seems to every single time. I'm more frustrated with myself because i know I'm going to be held to a debate level of standard where i have to prove every statement and every thing i say is picked apart if i mention the guy. not that that's what you were intentionally doing, but it felt like that. you seem pretty cool and I'm just taking my frustrations from past encounters out on you, which really isn't fair. 

i wish i had the energy to discuss the rest but i don't. and that frustrates me too. i still think he does more harm than good but I'm just not going to be able to explain why in a satisfactory way. sorry for being weird about it

Setting boundaries for yourself is very healthy and honestly, I stay out of most of these topics because I'm tired of wasting my time. 

[1pooh4u]

14 hours ago, DragonSinger said:

You know what, I'll say they're transphobic because they are. None of these people give a shit about girls or women's sports and use very out there cases to create rage clicks which endangers the trans community. So fuck all of them.

Woman isn't a bad word and concentrating on useless shit like that parroted in the news doesn't accomplish anything. Does it give their programs more funding for equipment and better research into nutrition that isn't focused on cis dudes? No. Does this address in any way the predators rife in sports? No(You may not have brought it up, but everyone going on about this in the news does). Are we getting free pads/tampons because trans men and nonbinary folks being included in advertising those products offends some people? No.

This is why I rarely watch cable or online news programs with talking personalities. Their entire aim is emotional manipulation and shilling themselves as products for as much money as possible. They get you amped up over bullshit and platform any asshole who'll get them ratings.

I’m going to disagree with you on the transphobia part.  Idk if you watch TYT, but it kind of doesn’t sound like it, or you haven’t in a while?  What Ana and Cenk was saying pretty much what you just said.  One or both often will say “I don’t care” about culture war bullshit nonsense because it exactly gets no one anything except anti LGBTQ+ legislation written and passed. They’re only saying you can’t turn against the people on the same side because they might have a difference of opinion on one or two things or because someone says something stupid once or twice especially if they been a voice speaking against the shit that’s been happening in this country for years.  
Not for nothing the Kotex interview that I saw Idt was from TYT. I’m only saying it’s not transphobic to think it’s stupid to be afraid to say “this is for women” which this woman definitely practically hurt her brain trying to think of other ways to say it. I’ve been in internet spaces where all people not males were called “non males”  so that’s stupid and not transphobic to say so.  It’s not transphobic to say common sense needs to be applied either and it was one take because at that time politicians were jumping on the train so they would not have to do their jobs. 

[1pooh4u]

There was only one time I was left a little dumbfounded by a TYT editorial (I guess that’s what it was) Anyone remember the video in NYC where a white pregnant (allegedly) woman was arguing with Black teens over a Citi bike?  There was confusion as to who actually had paid for the bike. The woman acted like a complete asshole screaming crying all sorts of nonsense.  The woman lost her job, she was a nurse at a huge hospital.  The public, myself included, was like “fuck that lady”   turned out she supposedly had receipts for the bike and she had a good faith basis for thinking the bike was hers, according to the attorney. (Idk if the receipt was ever presented)

anyway she went on a huge rant about that, about video not always telling the story and we’re so quick to judge, which was weird cuz she was doin the same thing again by assuming the receipt existed when she hadn’t seen it. Then she went on this “of course people don’t like it when you call them racist without a shred of proof” then she went on about this organization called Race to Dinner where wealthy white women pay big money to be berated by people of color. She ended with how that performative action doesn’t do anything to stop racism and the organization is a grift.  
 

I remember by the end thinking “wow sounds a lot like what the right would say” 

idk if they’re frustrated because they’re being attacked because frustration does lead to stupid shit flying from the face from time to time. 
 

I still watch because they have plenty of hosts that don’t agree with Cenk, the owner of the network and they definitely don’t subscribe to right wing ideology.  They want to be able to have conversations without being dragged by the Internet where often things are presented out of context to intentionally induce rage.  Good luck with that though 

[naraku360]

6 hours ago, DragonSinger said:

Both Vaush and Keffals are on my list(mental rolodex of assholes not to boost and predators/abusers), and I double-checked Twitter where I have both of them muted. I don't remember why Vaush was added but it was within the year. Keffals has a checkmark and a note of racism by their name. They may have had better motives in the past, but becoming internet personalities will corrupt you quick the larger your audience becomes.

I'm not quoting that long ass post you made, but it's been proven that debating human rights is utter bullshit and platforming assholes makes shit worse. Maybe you got some learning experiences from watching stuff like that, but in the end, douches like Shapiro, Rogan, Jones, etc. made their careers this way which is in no way a net positive. Fan behavior on Twitter is a good way to see into those personalities too because keeping fanbases in check is part of the job once you start getting a lot of attention. It's a decently reliable red flag if someone's fanbase are a bunch of douches on social media. There's usually something in their rhetoric that encourages that behavior or they're apathetic to harm that doesn't affect them.

I'd have to know and be able to look at what the abuse/predatory behavior was. I did look up Keffals' Twitter, and she does not have a blue check and I don't know what you mean about the racism next to the name thing.

I would need to see evidence of platforming being proven to be bad from an empirical standpoint, like data rather than anecdote. I've seen very little good from political Twitter, regardless of political affiliation. The Twitter left is no exception, and is unfortunately full of abusers and frauds, so I tend to be very skeptical toward Twitter engagement in general. Considering the bulk of harassment I've seen toward Vaush was on Twitter, what would that say about the fans of people who dislike him? See, it's not that simple, is it? I don't think all criticism of him comes from bad places, but a lot does come from people that got their beliefs on him from people I know to be abusers.

Who would you recommend as an alternative?

I don't think these are very good examples of people being platformed into the spotlight. Ben Shapiro started at Breitbart, which is a massive tabloid, and comes from a family of Hollywood execs. Alex Jones was a radio host and was a big name well before Twitter was a thing. Joe Rogan was a celebrity by the end of the '90s, he hosted a mainstream game show. None of their claims to fame come from actual debates. Ben Shapiro """"""""""debates"""""""""" amount to him on a stage gishgalloping against unprepared students he has full control to cut off at any point as they confront him while surrounded by his fans. That's not a debate; it's a deliberately constructed rhetorical trap. I think there's a huge difference between having a debate and actively putting one side at a clear disadvantage for the sole purpose of clipping inexperienced students to look bad. Of course none of those people deserve charitability.

I think it is important to hold views against scrutiny and that does involve looking at other perspectives. I don't know what the plan to push back against the spread of nazism is if the plan involves simply blocking and ignoring anyone that says or does anything offensive, nor assuming ill-will.

Edited July 27, 2023 by naraku360

[DragonSinger]

2 hours ago, 1pooh4u said:

I’m going to disagree with you on the transphobia part.  Idk if you watch TYT, but it kind of doesn’t sound like it, or you haven’t in a while?  What Ana and Cenk was saying pretty much what you just said.  One or both often will say “I don’t care” about culture war bullshit nonsense because it exactly gets no one anything except anti LGBTQ+ legislation written and passed. They’re only saying you can’t turn against the people on the same side because they might have a difference of opinion on one or two things or because someone says something stupid once or twice especially if they been a voice speaking against the shit that’s been happening in this country for years.  
Not for nothing the Kotex interview that I saw Idt was from TYT. I’m only saying it’s not transphobic to think it’s stupid to be afraid to say “this is for women” which this woman definitely practically hurt her brain trying to think of other ways to say it. I’ve been in internet spaces where all people not males were called “non males”  so that’s stupid and not transphobic to say so.  It’s not transphobic to say common sense needs to be applied either and it was one take because at that time politicians were jumping on the train so they would not have to do their jobs. 

It's really not that serious for people to be stumped to find ways to word things to be more inclusive. Debating this is a problem because the root of this starts from white nationalists pushing transphobia. There is no making lemonade from that even if there are improvements that can be made in those areas. It is very easy to find out where a lot of the outrage is being generated from if you look up articles about these 'controversies'. You will see a shit load of white nationalist sites come up. Like most of the sports stories coming up feature white blonde chicks, but folks don't dig deep enough to discover even that much. The well was poisoned from the beginning because the end goal is spreading more hate. If TYT were in any way responsible, they would easily clock this shit, but clicks are worth a lot more than doing the right thing. The trans community is receiving an extraordinary amount of attacks right now. There is zero reason to add to that.