Who put this Fan Art up on the bumps last night?!

[Jman]

Advertising boils down to two things usually - 

1.  We have products. 

2.  We have the means to get those products to people.

Toonami right now is losing both of those.  They don’t have the products, and the ones they do have are beaten by streamers.

I don’t know what happened exactly.  I think somewhere between 2014-today we felt the momentum shift against cable blocks particularly as Toonami was no longer the only game in town, the reason they were as long lasting as they were. 
 

Then it was one disaster after another.  Originals that weren’t very good.  Family Guy going bye bye.  Sony buying FUNi and eliminating their big source of new shows.  Originals getting written off for taxes.  And so on.

Fat Nami feels almost like a gross parody of how far the block has fallen.  It reminds me of this -

 

[atomicinumatt]

22 minutes ago, Jman said:

Advertising boils down to two things usually - 

1.  We have products. 

2.  We have the means to get those products to people.

Toonami right now is losing both of those.  They don’t have the products, and the ones they do have are beaten by streamers.

I don’t know what happened exactly.  I think somewhere between 2014-today we felt the momentum shift against cable blocks particularly as Toonami was no longer the only game in town, the reason they were as long lasting as they were. 
 

Then it was one disaster after another.  Originals that weren’t very good.  Family Guy going bye bye.  Sony buying FUNi and eliminating their big source of new shows.  Originals getting written off for taxes.  And so on.

Fat Nami feels almost like a gross parody of how far the block has fallen.  It reminds me of this -

 

Unfortunately I think you are right.

And worse I do no think Toonami will be able to get the products to be competitive. [as] has R&M for a while so they will probably be okay for the medium term, but it is not like Toonami could ever dream of getting something big and exclusive. At best they will get to re air things after large platforms already have. 

I think the best we have to offer is niche for nostalgia. But I guess we have to wait and see what we get this year with AOT etc. but I am not expecting anything astronomical. 

[Toonamiguy321]

1 hour ago, atomicinumatt said:

In terms of what they can do for viewing experience? I think they do best with the more guerrilla style marketing and advertising campaigns.

I think this is something everyone is thinking about too hard. I guarantee you, exactly zero people tuned into Toonami last week thinking “boy I can’t wait to see fanart!” It was a nice bonus, but it’s not the kind of thing drawing new eyes to the block. There are only 2 things they can do that will fundamentally improve viewership, packaging and show choice. 
 

As we saw last year, packaging was another thing they struggled with and blamed on staff issues. With that in mind, I don’t really know why they thought an extra layer of work with the fanart thing was a good idea when they couldn’t even update bumpers a single time across the span of about 10 months. For the nostalgia based watcher, the packaging is everything. So if that never changes, it defeats the purpose of tuning in. 
 

And the second factor is the most obvious one, their programming choices. Thanks to Naruto and One Piece, they only have 4 slots to play with, which doesn’t give them a lot of room for mistakes. It’s pretty simple, if they want better viewer engagement, they need to air things people actually want to watch. MHA has been a pretty healthy boost for the lead slot, so there is a clear science that picking the right shows pumps the numbers up. 
 

Nothing else is going to make a difference. They could be giving out handjobs every Saturday and it’s still not going to get people to tune in if the lineup is weak. 

[CountFrylock]

36 minutes ago, atomicinumatt said:

In terms of the block programming itself, I think it comes down to ratings, availability and funding. 

I also think that the only people watching it for premieres, are people who cannot watch elsewhere, which is probably a small group. The rest probably watch out of convenience or nostalgia. I certainly watch purely out of nostalgia. The only thing I am watching for the first time is MHA S6 only because it is not my favorite and I have not had time to watch it yet. 

[as]/Toonami would have to get ratings and numbers up or something cooperate would have to change before the Block could really be blustered. Probably not happening. 

We only get 3 hours of Toonami a week now. Here I am hoping we could get at least another hour of reruns and go til 4am again

Sucks none of us contribute to the ratings  but hey that's the Nielsen Ratings for ya....

 

[atomicinumatt]

9 minutes ago, Toonamiguy321 said:

I think this is something everyone is thinking about too hard. I guarantee you, exactly zero people tuned into Toonami last week thinking “boy I can’t wait to see fanart!” It was a nice bonus, but it’s not the kind of thing drawing new eyes to the block. There are only 2 things they can do that will fundamentally improve viewership, packaging and show choice. 
 

My point was that we are not going to see large scale popularity given competition from larger platforms. 

Our viewership is much more of a niche thing. Most people tune in for convenience and nostalgia. Advertise towards those people. 

[CountFrylock]

48 minutes ago, Jman said:

Advertising boils down to two things usually - 

1.  We have products. 

2.  We have the means to get those products to people.

Toonami right now is losing both of those.  They don’t have the products, and the ones they do have are beaten by streamers.

I don’t know what happened exactly.  I think somewhere between 2014-today we felt the momentum shift against cable blocks particularly as Toonami was no longer the only game in town, the reason they were as long lasting as they were. 
 

Then it was one disaster after another.  Originals that weren’t very good.  Family Guy going bye bye.  Sony buying FUNi and eliminating their big source of new shows.  Originals getting written off for taxes.  And so on.

Fat Nami feels almost like a gross parody of how far the block has fallen.  It reminds me of this -

 

that's the thing....We're past the point where good shows are all they need

unless you are someone whose unfamiliar with the internet....You Can easily watch most of what's on toonami long before it comes to the block

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by CountFrylock

[CountFrylock]

1 minute ago, atomicinumatt said:

My point was that we are not going to see large scale popularity given competition from larger platforms. 

Our viewership is much more of a niche thing. Most people tune in for convenience and nostalgia. Advertise towards those people. 

I Think it's best to not think too much about Toonami's viewership numbers since we ourselves have no effect on it and Nielsen Ratings Participation is A Temporary thing

so viewers are gonna rotate in and out accordingly

[atomicinumatt]

3 minutes ago, CountFrylock said:

I Think it's best to not think too much about Toonami's viewership numbers since we ourselves have no effect on it and Nielsen Ratings Participation is A Temporary thing

so viewers are gonna rotate in and out accordingly

Do we think the VideoAmp deal will make ratings any more reliable? 

[Toonamiguy321]

19 minutes ago, CountFrylock said:

that's the thing....We're past the point where good shows are all they need

unless you are someone whose unfamiliar with the internet....You Can easily watch most of what's on toonami long before it comes to the block

 

We aren’t though. We are passed the point where good shows would substantially IMPROVE viewership, but we aren’t passed the point where good shows can help maintain the 250k or so people that are left. 
 

Trying to lure new eyes to Toonami is a fools errand. Maybe they hook a few when they run a promo on AEW or something, but not enough to shift the needle. If you are still tuning into this block in 2023, it’s because you are a bigtime fan and don’t care that the shows it offers can be streamed. You WANT to watch these shows in the inferior way, because you want to watch Toonami. 
 

The question to ask isn’t how we get more people watching Toonami. It’s how do we keep the current audience tuning in. 

[CountFrylock]

1 hour ago, Toonamiguy321 said:

We aren’t though. We are passed the point where good shows would substantially IMPROVE viewership, but we aren’t passed the point where good shows can help maintain the 250k or so people that are left. 
 

Trying to lure new eyes to Toonami is a fools errand. Maybe they hook a few when they run a promo on AEW or something, but not enough to shift the needle. If you are still tuning into this block in 2023, it’s because you are a bigtime fan and don’t care that the shows it offers can be streamed. You WANT to watch these shows in the inferior way, because you want to watch Toonami. 
 

The question to ask isn’t how we get more people watching Toonami. It’s how do we keep the current audience tuning in. 

As  i Stated  previously since Nielsen Participation Viewers are Temporary and they rotate in/rotate out accordingly

we need a wide appeal show because I'm pretty sure a majority of toonami fans have never even seen a nielsen box or been selected for the survey

we're looking at appeasing the average american viewer and it's hard to figure out what show(s)would keep them coming back for more each week

Edited January 10, 2023 by CountFrylock

[CountFrylock]

1 hour ago, atomicinumatt said:

Do we think the VideoAmp deal will make ratings any more reliable? 

who can say....but hopefully

[Toonamiguy321]

25 minutes ago, CountFrylock said:

As  i Stated  previously since Nielsen Participation Viewers are Temporary and they rotate in/rotate out accordingly

we need a wide appeal show because I'm pretty sure a majority of toonami fans have never even seen a nielsen box or been selected for the survey

we're looking at appeasing the average american viewer and it's hard to figure out what show(s)would keep them coming back for more each week

Well, MHA is about as casual normie tier as anime offers currently and it seems to be doing its job as intended. Problem is, those wide appeal normie shows are the ones everyone wants to fight over, and Toonami hasn’t been in the weight class for this fight in a long time. 
 

The way I see it, there are two paths they can take. The first is the current one, where they continue chasing the latest fad in what will usually be a futile attempt at picking it up. This means long stretches of the block covered by reruns and double ups, and the occasional beacon of good fortune when they get something like MHA. Or their second option, air shows that are still good, but never rocketed into the normiesphere. That means more calls to Viz and Sentai, and hopefully with less competition, less dead stretches on the block. 
 

Right now they have two open slots rapidly closing in. We have been here long enough we know what’s in their crosshairs, Bleach, Chainsaw Man, and Witch from Mercury. The question is, can they make the shot? Or are Toonami fans going hungry once again? We will find out in a few weeks. 

[CountFrylock]

6 minutes ago, Toonamiguy321 said:

Well, MHA is about as casual normie tier as anime offers currently and it seems to be doing its job as intended. Problem is, those wide appeal normie shows are the ones everyone wants to fight over, and Toonami hasn’t been in the weight class for this fight in a long time. 
 

The way I see it, there are two paths they can take. The first is the current one, where they continue chasing the latest fad in what will usually be a futile attempt at picking it up. This means long stretches of the block covered by reruns and double ups, and the occasional beacon of good fortune when they get something like MHA. Or their second option, air shows that are still good, but never rocketed into the normiesphere. That means more calls to Viz and Sentai, and hopefully with less competition, less dead stretches on the block. 
 

Right now they have two open slots rapidly closing in. We have been here long enough we know what’s in their crosshairs, Bleach, Chainsaw Man, and Witch from Mercury. The question is, can they make the shot? Or are Toonami fans going hungry once again? We will find out in a few weeks. 

 aside from Bleach...what else does Viz Really have that's fresh and relevant enough to get the normie crowd excited?

And As For Witch From Mercury  We Already Know The Casual Crowd Doesn't give two shits about Gundam Or Mech Shows In General...so even if they do get that  chances are It would prompt the nielsen viewing audience to tune out

Edited January 10, 2023 by CountFrylock

[Jman]

Considering how successful Witch from Mercury has been for Crunchyroll without a dub, I’d say you’re quite wrong on that one.

Toonami’s failures should not be considered the failures of the general audience.

[katt_goddess]

2 hours ago, CountFrylock said:

Sucks none of us contribute to the ratings  but hey that's the Nielsen Ratings for ya....

 

Hey now, I was a regular Nielsen jerk for years before I apparently aged out or creeped them out with my constant cartoon/anime/truecrimebodypartseverywhereandthedogismissingtoo viewing reports. 

[atomicinumatt]

Honestly I do not think that choice of shows will impact ratings beyond a marginal amount. Sure we might see a little surge of new viewers if something big is acquired, and some might leave if the Block dwindles even more. But most people are already watching their favorite shows on other platforms. 

I tune in regardless of what they have programmed right now. 

I think most people currently watching will watch regardless. And most people who see their favorite show come to Toonami have more than likely seen it somewhere else. Some might still come to Toonami to watch it, but I doubt a lot will. 

They would have to get an exclusive premiere or something and I do not ever see that happening with a big name show. 

There are simply no other reasons to tune in than for convenience and nostalgia. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by atomicinumatt

[atomicinumatt]

1 hour ago, CountFrylock said:

we need a wide appeal show because I'm pretty sure a majority of toonami fans have never even seen a nielsen box or been selected for the survey

we're looking at appeasing the average american viewer and it's hard to figure out what show(s)would keep them coming back for more each week

I feel like Toonami should 'ask' the fans what they want, but who knows how though. And whenever did they care what we want? Haha 

Having a general audience show or a big name show will only really work if people have to come to Toonami to view it and that is basically impossible now. 

[CountFrylock]

10 minutes ago, atomicinumatt said:

I feel like Toonami should 'ask' the fans what they want, but who knows how though. And whenever did they care what we want? Haha 

Having a general audience show or a big name show will only really work if people have to come to Toonami to view it and that is basically impossible now. 

Eh I Don't think asking fans what they want would work since the people asking probably won't be contributing to the ratings....they could put up a poll and air what everyone votes for it

but if the average American isn't into it then it'll be a failure on the block per the nielsen ratings

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by CountFrylock

[katt_goddess]

2 minutes ago, atomicinumatt said:

I feel like Toonami should 'ask' the fans what they want, but who knows how though. And whenever did they care what we want? Haha 

Having a general audience show or a big name show will only really work if people have to come to Toonami to view it and that is basically impossible now. 

True story [ and more than enough time has passed that no one should be all that butthurt ]

Does anyone remember those very occasional threads I would post in GAD and AD way in the way back asking for peoples general input and ideas for what anime shows [ as ] should aire if they could aire?

Those were actually official request threads from [ as ] directly. I was the one asked to post them because people would hopefully reply on-topic and give real answers to katt_goddess instead of jumping at the one in the Insider Blue name with every possible complaint known to man and a few just made up on the spot.  So there have been times where people were being asked, albeit 'casually' , about show suggestions. 

[CountFrylock]

54 minutes ago, Jman said:

Considering how successful Witch from Mercury has been for Crunchyroll without a dub, I’d say you’re quite wrong on that one.

Toonami’s failures should not be considered the failures of the general audience.

I Wouldn't really say Witch from Mercury being a success on crunchyroll proves that the average american cable viewer would love it more than other gundam shows that have aired on toonami

[atomicinumatt]

9 minutes ago, katt_goddess said:

True story [ and more than enough time has passed that no one should be all that butthurt ]

Does anyone remember those very occasional threads I would post in GAD and AD way in the way back asking for peoples general input and ideas for what anime shows [ as ] should aire if they could aire?

Those were actually official request threads from [ as ] directly. I was the one asked to post them because people would hopefully reply on-topic and give real answers to katt_goddess instead of jumping at the one in the Insider Blue name with every possible complaint known to man and a few just made up on the spot.  So there have been times where people were being asked, albeit 'casually' , about show suggestions. 

Yea and I do not think they could do that today effectively. No idea how haha but yes I remember those threads!

[katt_goddess]

2 minutes ago, atomicinumatt said:

Yea and I do not think they could do that today effectively. No idea how haha but yes I remember those threads!

There's too many social media ways to ask and zero ways to ensure that the answers you are getting are from people who would actually watch the results. 

You'd just get spam bots screaming about 'Totally Spies' until the heat death of the universe. 

[atomicinumatt]

Just now, katt_goddess said:

There's too many social media ways to ask and zero ways to ensure that the answers you are getting are from people who would actually watch the results. 

You'd just get spam bots screaming about 'Totally Spies' until the heat death of the universe. 

It is honestly so sad to see how degenerate we have allowed internet technologies to become at scale

[Toonamiguy321]

2 hours ago, CountFrylock said:

 aside from Bleach...what else does Viz Really have that's fresh and relevant enough to get the normie crowd excited?

And As For Witch From Mercury  We Already Know The Casual Crowd Doesn't give two shits about Gundam Or Mech Shows In General...so even if they do get that  chances are It would prompt the nielsen viewing audience to tune out

Not really anything comes to mind. But that’s part of my point, they are gonna have to roll the dice on MAKING something popular (among the Toonami crowd at least) unless they want to keep up this cycle of landing one decent show then having 6 months of drought afterwards. 
 

And yea, Gundam has had its problems in the past, but Witch from Mercury has lesbians. It’s not your standard boring political drama sausage fest most of them end up being. 
 

1 hour ago, atomicinumatt said:

Honestly I do not think that choice of shows will impact ratings beyond a marginal amount. Sure we might see a little surge of new viewers if something big is acquired, and some might leave if the Block dwindles even more. But most people are already watching their favorite shows on other platforms. 

Like I said, we aren’t looking for a massive boost in viewership. That’s not gonna happen. What we want to see is a consistent turnout each week and no massive dives in viewers. Like what we see with Yashahime most weeks. Our audience clearly does not want to watch that, and they just don’t come back for the stuff after it. If S1 of a show flops, stop getting S2.

 

1 hour ago, atomicinumatt said:

I feel like Toonami should 'ask' the fans what they want, but who knows how though. And whenever did they care what we want? Haha 

This method comes with two issues. For starters, they do in fact still take requests. I believe Demarco shared the most recent top requested shows a few months ago. So they haven’t completely shunned fan input. Problem number one is the shows people request are gonna be pretty obvious. It’s always going to be the hot seasonal shows. Which is fine, but if the top 5 requests are all shows Toonami can’t access, what good is that information? 
 

The second issue, and this is one we have seen in the past, shows people think belong on Toonami are often shows people won’t actually tune in for, for various reasons. They already watched it (which is why they suggested it), they don’t like dubs, the blocks on too late, the OPs are cut, and on and on. Probably the biggest example of this was Jojo. Easily the blocks top request for many years, only to do downright terrible across 5 seasons. 
 

Remember that time they rightfully death slotted part 4 of Jojo for its subpar ratings, only to actually go back and change the schedule because so many people complained on Facebook? And then after all that, Jojo continued to lose to the shows airing after it nearly every week? Too many popular shows have a fanbase who think their favorite show is entitled to top billing, but won’t actually tune in and support it. 

[Jman]

What happens is they request the shows, then watch them elsewhere.  JoJo did gangbusters…on streaming.  Netflix wouldn’t have gotten Stone Ocean otherwise (and presumably are making Steel Ball Run as well).

ONLY Toonami is no longer a thing.  

[EmpressAngel]

After the shitfit people threw about how Netflix batch-released Stone Ocean, maybe people would appreciate Toonami's weekly schedule more for it.

[OwlChemist81]

17 hours ago, katt_goddess said:

True story [ and more than enough time has passed that no one should be all that butthurt ]

Does anyone remember those very occasional threads I would post in GAD and AD way in the way back asking for peoples general input and ideas for what anime shows [ as ] should aire if they could aire?

Those were actually official request threads from [ as ] directly. I was the one asked to post them because people would hopefully reply on-topic and give real answers to katt_goddess instead of jumping at the one in the Insider Blue name with every possible complaint known to man and a few just made up on the spot.  So there have been times where people were being asked, albeit 'casually' , about show suggestions. 

Hey, I do believe I participated in those a time or two!!

[OwlChemist81]

14 hours ago, Jman said:

What happens is they request the shows, then watch them elsewhere.  JoJo did gangbusters…on streaming.  Netflix wouldn’t have gotten Stone Ocean otherwise (and presumably are making Steel Ball Run as well).

ONLY Toonami is no longer a thing.  

Great! Netflix watchers might be able to see that by...*Checks Watch* Fall of 2027!

[OwlChemist81]

15 hours ago, Toonamiguy321 said:

 Remember that time they rightfully death slotted part 4 of Jojo for its subpar ratings, only to actually go back and change the schedule because so many people complained on Facebook? And then after all that, Jojo continued to lose to the shows airing after it nearly every week? Too many popular shows have a fanbase who think their favorite show is entitled to top billing, but won’t actually tune in and support it. 

If I remember correctly, it was Part 5 of Jojo which ACTUALLY got deathslotted at 2:30 for most of its run until eventually rising to 12:30 during the dearth of content which came in Pandemic-addled 2020, but I DO remember at one point it was planned for Part 4 to fall to 3 AM but Hunter×Hunter wound up finishing there instead!

[Toonamiguy321]

3 hours ago, OwlChemist81 said:

If I remember correctly, it was Part 5 of Jojo which ACTUALLY got deathslotted at 2:30 for most of its run until eventually rising to 12:30 during the dearth of content which came in Pandemic-addled 2020, but I DO remember at one point it was planned for Part 4 to fall to 3 AM but Hunter×Hunter wound up finishing there instead!

Part 5 starting it’s run at 2:30a was likely a response to what happened with part 4. Part 4 never actually aired in the deathslot, they shifted the schedule around only a few days after announcing it because so many people complained. Then that effort was rewarded continued ratings issues the rest of its run. 
 

If I remember right, this was the same schedule that had initially given Black Clover a well earned promotion in the schedule, then quickly took it away. Then Clover ended up being one of the shows doing better than Jojo despite airing later. 

[atomicinumatt]

4 hours ago, OwlChemist81 said:

Great! Netflix watchers might be able to see that by...*Checks Watch* Fall of 2027!

I honestly have not used Netflix in months. Last thing I watched there was Edgerunners I think. Probably should cancel my sub haha 

[ben0119]

On 1/9/2023 at 9:24 AM, CountFrylock said:

 

Then why the hell is Demarco deathly allergic to fan service?

Then again, he didn't think the SAO rapisode was a big deal, either.  "I don't think you should let one bad scene ruin a whole show."  I agree on that, but still, rape!

[ben0119]

Oh I finally watched Panty and Stocking several months ago as part of my ecchi/fan service/romance/slice of life binge-a-thon I have been having lately.  That show is HILARIOUS.  I was super glad to see that season 2 announcement.  

This was one of the few shows Toonami flat out refused to air.  They usually wouldn't make a statement like that.  I believe it was to do with content issues and not whether they liked it or not.  Yeah, it's like an adult Cartoon Cartoon show so it's a shame it never aired on AS.  You also won't see any .hack series because Demarco said he hates it.  Though they're all very old now anyway.

Toonami used to take requests and would regularly publish what the top 5 most requested shows are.  I think you could submit requests through their Tumblr page or something?  But, didn't know they were still doing that (not sure where they take requests at now.)  Didn't know they were still saying what the top 5 most requested shows are, either.  But yeah, most of the shows are the shows you'd expect them to be.  I'm still salty they wouldn't air Fairy Tail after it was highly requested for years.

[atomicinumatt]

9 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

Oh I finally watched Panty and Stocking several months ago as part of my ecchi/fan service/romance/slice of life binge-a-thon I have been having lately.  That show is HILARIOUS.  I was super glad to see that season 2 announcement.  

This was one of the few shows Toonami flat out refused to air.  They usually wouldn't make a statement like that.  I believe it was to do with content issues and not whether they liked it or not.  Yeah, it's like an adult Cartoon Cartoon show so it's a shame it never aired on AS.  You also won't see any .hack series because Demarco said he hates it.  Though they're all very old now anyway.

Toonami used to take requests and would regularly publish what the top 5 most requested shows are.  I think you could submit requests through their Tumblr page or something?  But, didn't know they were still doing that (not sure where they take requests at now.)  Didn't know they were still saying what the top 5 most requested shows are, either.  But yeah, most of the shows are the shows you'd expect them to be.  I'm still salty they wouldn't air Fairy Tail after it was highly requested for years.

P&S is so good. 

It is a perfect balance of comedy and also some more seriousness as well. I love all the call outs to other anime and manga too. And the cliffhanger ending haha definitely need a season 2 after that!

Edited January 15, 2023 by atomicinumatt