A Discussion on Civility

[naraku360]

19 minutes ago, katt_goddess said:

My take on things is that every time someone tells Jingai to f himself, he just bad touches himself with glee and potentially drags a screen shot to whatever 'friends' he might have elsewhere to show what a victim he is.

My replies give him blue balls. 

Giving him a legit response or none at all shuts him up far more than telling him to go fuck himself.

One he can cry about.

The other makes him feel dumb without room to cry to any reasonable person. Yes, he'll cry to his echo chamber, but a normal person can look at it and be like, "You're upset about this? Why?"

It's really simple.

[scoobdog]

2 hours ago, naraku360 said:

I'm responding to shouting people down, as stated several times.

I've also said, multiple times, that the purpose of civility boils down to optics to the average, non-political person. If you want to be shitty to people like Jingai, clearly I've shown that I have no interest in being nice to him. When in public, unfortunately civility does have an impact on the perception of the left and yelling insults at people is counterproductive toward drawing people away from right-wing extremism. It is not, nor ever will be, about being nice to disingenuous frauds like Jingai.

I know what you’re talking about and my point stands.
 

Optics are irrelevant to anyone other than a puppeteer:  it’s putting up a curtain so that your audience  only sees the action of the puppets and not those pulling the strings.  It doesn’t matter if the puppeteer is talking about her experiences or if her puppet is the one telling the story, if the audience refuses to acknowledge her experience  they will rationalize how the story she or the puppet tells is invalid.  Sorce doesn’t have to tell white liberals a nice story about how racism, homophobia, and misogyny have affected her life - she only has to be honest.   If, as a white liberal, I can’t recognize how putting up with that kind of abuse could make her angry, frustrated and more than a little pessimistic then the problem is clearly that I don’t see her as a fellow human.

This expectation that people won’t listen because the message is angry, personal, and ugly is absurd.  What you’re trying to say is racists are somehow going to acknowledge their racism through logic even though their beliefs are (as Sorce said) irrational.  They’re not going to listen because they’re irrational, and confronting them makes it harder to be irrational than telling them nicely.

[naraku360]

1 minute ago, scoobdog said:

I know what you’re talking about and my point stands.
 

Optics are irrelevant to anyone other than a puppeteer:  it’s putting up a curtain so that your audience  only sees the action of the puppets and not those pulling the strings.  It doesn’t matter if the puppeteer is talking about her experiences or if her puppet is the one telling the story, if the audience refuses to acknowledge her experience  they will rationalize how the story she or the puppet tells is invalid.  Sorce doesn’t have to tell white liberals a nice story about how racism, homophobia, and misogyny have affected her life - she only has to be honest.   If, as a white liberal, I can’t recognize how putting up with that kind of abuse could make her angry, frustrated and more than a little pessimistic then the problem is clearly that I don’t see her as a fellow human.

This expectation that people won’t listen because the message is angry, personal, and ugly is absurd.  What you’re trying to say is racists are somehow going to acknowledge their racism through logic even though their beliefs are (as Sorce said) irrational.  They’re not going to listen because they’re irrational, and confronting them makes it harder to be irrational than telling them nicely.

No, it's not. It's very important when talking about deradicalization. We're in the middle of an information war with right wing propaganda dominating we have no choice but to control our narrative to the best of our ability.

What's being said right now by both you and Sorce is that we should give up on outreach and just get upset at people for being conservative. It's quite literally arguing that someone being racist now after ignorantly being fed misinformation their whole life is so irredeemable that we should not attempt to make fewer people racist. We should persecute them into staying racist and, if they get out of the rabbithole, should never be accepted. Punish for the way they are and punish them for no longer being that way.

Even grosser is the broad acceptance of Sorce's sentiment of me not supporting black rights any more simply due to my stance changing to deradicalization over condemnation (Jingai-types excluded, as no concersation with him has value) and her opinion being supperior because my friends are of an oddly specific skin tone, despite me being a Jew and the friends in question likely being more ethnically diverse than her entire social group, and she's a black woman. I didn't bring up her race or lodge racist jabs are people she doesn't know enough about to realize that 1 in 5 is fully white.

Why I'm being made the bad guy for wanting to present a welcoming environment to proactively prevent right-wing radicalization? When she baselessly brought race into it, accused me of racism amidst her explicitly racist comments about my close friends, claimed her opinion superior based on her own skin color, and accused me of being a victim blamer... for what? Saying we should try to do what's beneficial toward preventing the spread of an already festering fascism wound? How dare I suggest treating people with contempt instead of trying to figure them out?

I may have phrased it in a way that sounds manipulative or mean by saying I corner people in arguments. I meant that I tend to get lost in arguments the more emotion gets involved. "Cornering" is a lot.less empathetic than I intended. I was getting frustrated and likely already very tired. What I'm talking about is prettypurpose is to help people come to a conclusion on their own when they've been radicalized. I meant more along the lines of walking them through the way I reached a conclusion and letting them agree or disagree. Sometimes it is cognitive dissonance that can be broken through with patience. People aren't born nazis. They're groomed into it, the fear tactics used by outlets like Fox are well-documented as effectively brainwashing. It doesn't justice the horrible acts of hateful extremists, however nazism's spread isn't just some naturally spreading value system. Not everyone going down that path can be brought back, but a lot of them are just regular people who get exploited through ignorance.

Should we play into the right's caricature of us or make an active effort to be better people and help people avoid radicalization? How does screaming at me or my allegedly white friends for being white help anyone? Do you like the right being able to correctly associate you with that rather than them attempt to do so incorrectly? Is it better because they get to actually be correct in their smears? You can go low and maintain principles or at very least a little self-respect.

[DragonSinger]

2 hours ago, naraku360 said:

You mean my Syrian-Arabic, African-American, and Filipino roommates? Those "white" friends...?

No, it's about doing what we can to be productive in pushing leftist beliefs. The point is to not behave in ways that benefit the right. You're literally making the same argument Nabs does when he argues that we should go after Democrats because they aren't good enough even if it knowingly helps the obviously worse Republicans.

*Peeks to see if anyone's still talking about rape that my slightly professional ass can't be part of. Looks clear*

Anyways, my bad. I should have said this is probably about your shitty white and can probably pass a paperbag test friends. If you've collected the downright suicidal dark-skinned one, I guess...congrats? How are you roommates with these people?

[DragonSinger]

32 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

No, it's not. It's very important when talking about deradicalization. We're in the middle of an information war with right wing propaganda dominating we have no choice but to control our narrative to the best of our ability.

What's being said right now by both you and Sorce is that we should give up on outreach and just get upset at people for being conservative. It's quite literally arguing that someone being racist now after ignorantly being fed misinformation their whole life is so irredeemable that we should not attempt to make fewer people racist. We should persecute them into staying racist and, if they get out of the rabbithole, should never be accepted. Punish for the way they are and punish them for no longer being that way.

Even grosser is the broad acceptance of Sorce's sentiment of me not supporting black rights any more simply due to my stance changing to deradicalization over condemnation (Jingai-types excluded, as no concersation with him has value) and her opinion being supperior because my friends are of an oddly specific skin tone, despite me being a Jew and the friends in question likely being more ethnically diverse than her entire social group, and she's a black woman. I didn't bring up her race or lodge racist jabs are people she doesn't know enough about to realize that 1 in 5 is fully white.

Why I'm being made the bad guy for wanting to present a welcoming environment to proactively prevent right-wing radicalization? When she baselessly brought race into it, accused me of racism amidst her explicitly racist comments about my close friends, claimed her opinion superior based on her own skin color, and accused me of being a victim blamer... for what? Saying we should try to do what's beneficial toward preventing the spread of an already festering fascism wound? How dare I suggest treating people with contempt instead of trying to figure them out?

I may have phrased it in a way that sounds manipulative or mean by saying I corner people in arguments. I meant that I tend to get lost in arguments the more emotion gets involved. "Cornering" is a lot.less empathetic than I intended. I was getting frustrated and likely already very tired. What I'm talking about is prettypurpose is to help people come to a conclusion on their own when they've been radicalized. I meant more along the lines of walking them through the way I reached a conclusion and letting them agree or disagree. Sometimes it is cognitive dissonance that can be broken through with patience. People aren't born nazis. They're groomed into it, the fear tactics used by outlets like Fox are well-documented as effectively brainwashing. It doesn't justice the horrible acts of hateful extremists, however nazism's spread isn't just some naturally spreading value system. Not everyone going down that path can be brought back, but a lot of them are just regular people who get exploited through ignorance.

Should we play into the right's caricature of us or make an active effort to be better people and help people avoid radicalization? How does screaming at me or my allegedly white friends for being white help anyone? Do you like the right being able to correctly associate you with that rather than them attempt to do so incorrectly? Is it better because they get to actually be correct in their smears? You can go low and maintain principles or at very least a little self-respect.

Your level of denial is a bit more fucked up than I thought, so I'll write a response to this later on.

[scoobdog]

You’re taking this personal, and that itself is a problem.  Nobody is suggesting you don’t support black rights.  Clearly you’re uncomfortable with the anger as you should be, but it’s still authentic.  More importantly, you’re getting this information war thing wrong.  We’re not trying to change what the right thinks of us, and it would be foolish to try.  You can’t teach people politely to see all human beings as equals because denying this is a complex of coping mechanisms protecting against fear.  They have to see what their actions beget.

[André Toulon]

You got an entire splice dedicated to you Jingus.....I will never understand it, but well played. For the life of me I'd never be able to come up with 2 pages of shit about you

[Vela]

On 1/4/2023 at 11:08 PM, SwimModSponges said:

Time religion 

Like Asatru?

[Gemini]

Just now, Vela said:

Like Asatru?

Or the Sisterhood of Karn from Doctor Who? I honestly have no idea what he's talking about.

[Vela]

On 1/4/2023 at 11:08 PM, SwimModSponges said:

Time religion

🤚 Nevermind...

..

.I have found your thread.

 

But for a moment I thought you were talking about time yarn.

[Gemini]

53 minutes ago, Vela said:

🤚 Nevermind...

..

.I have found your thread.

 

But for a moment I thought you were talking about time yarn.

Of course, we all know that Time is relative. There's a reason why we call it "Father Time" after all. lol

Edited January 8, 2023 by hornedlizardman

[Vela]

1 hour ago, hornedlizardman said:

Of course, we all know that Time is relative. There's a reason why we call it "Father Time" after all. lol

[Gemini]

Just now, Vela said:

[stilgar]

[Vela]

9 minutes ago, hornedlizardman said:

[Gemini]

[Vela]

2 minutes ago, hornedlizardman said:

[Gemini]

2 minutes ago, Vela said:

[Vela]

Just now, hornedlizardman said:

[Gemini]

Just now, Vela said:

[Vela]

2 minutes ago, hornedlizardman said:

[Gemini]

26 minutes ago, Vela said:

[Vela]

2 minutes ago, hornedlizardman said:

No

 

[Gemini]

No.

[Vela]

1 minute ago, hornedlizardman said:

No.

 

[Gemini]

No, no. Her character married his character in Parks and Rec and even have a family. Neener neener.

[DragonSinger]

6 hours ago, André Toulon said:

You got an entire splice dedicated to you Jingus.....I will never understand it, but well played. For the life of me I'd never be able to come up with 2 pages of shit about you

It's more like he's a placeholder name to describe people like him. I'll switch to refering to those people as IAD's, a.k.a., Insurrections Aren't Dealbreakers(People Who Think placed in front of it would be a more proper acronym, but I don't want to write six letters). It gives proper context when someone is like, "Hey I saw you being really mean to that IAD, and that made me feel bad so NO DEMOCRACY FOR YOU!

[André Toulon]

18 minutes ago, DragonSinger said:

It's more like he's a placeholder name to describe people like him. I'll switch to refering to those people as IAD's, a.k.a., Insurrections Aren't Dealbreakers(People Who Think placed in front of it would be a more proper acronym, but I don't want to write six letters). It gives proper context when someone is like, "Hey I saw you being really mean to that IAD, and that made me feel bad so NO DEMOCRACY FOR YOU!

Oh no, please keep doing what you're doing. I'm learning.

[naraku360]

On 1/7/2023 at 1:49 PM, DragonSinger said:

I really shouldn't have held back earlier and said this is about your shitty white friends. But good luck with thinking you're going to change these kinds of folks:

 

On 1/7/2023 at 8:14 PM, scoobdog said:

You’re taking this personal, and that itself is a problem.  Nobody is suggesting you don’t support black rights.  Clearly you’re uncomfortable with the anger as you should be, but it’s still authentic.  More importantly, you’re getting this information war thing wrong.  We’re not trying to change what the right thinks of us, and it would be foolish to try.  You can’t teach people politely to see all human beings as equals because denying this is a complex of coping mechanisms protecting against fear.  They have to see what their actions beget.

You liked the post where she explicitly stated that she had already decided early in the conversation that it was just about my "shitty white friends" (it wasn't, and most friends referenced a single time in the conversation aren't even white). She made it personal. And openly racist. I don't know what to tell you if this isn't bad faith on the face of it.

[scoobdog]

1 hour ago, naraku360 said:

 

You liked the post where she explicitly stated that she had already decided early in the conversation that it was just about my "shitty white friends" (it wasn't, and most friends referenced a single time in the conversation aren't even white). She made it personal. And openly racist. I don't know what to tell you if this isn't bad faith on the face of it.

Bad faith?  Dude, she wasn’t asking for counterpoint in the first place.  You could hardly expect her to be following rules of debate when she didn’t intend to debate you.

Look, nobody gets ahead if you end up getting hurt in all this.  You know she doesn’t know you or your roommates, so don’t take her comments as personal critiques of all of you.  Accept them for what they are:  born out of her experience of living in the Deep South.

[DragonSinger]

1 hour ago, naraku360 said:

 

You liked the post where she explicitly stated that she had already decided early in the conversation that it was just about my "shitty white friends" (it wasn't, and most friends referenced a single time in the conversation aren't even white). She made it personal. And openly racist. I don't know what to tell you if this isn't bad faith on the face of it.

So you're just gonna keep screaming racist instead of explaining why you're living with those folks?

[naraku360]

3 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

Bad faith?  Dude, she wasn’t asking for counterpoint in the first place.  You could hardly expect her to be following rules of debate when she didn’t intend to debate you.

Look, nobody gets ahead if you end up getting hurt in all this.  You know she doesn’t know you or your roommates, so don’t take her comments as personal critiques of all of you.  Accept them for what they are:  born out of her experience of living in the Deep South.

I don't know where you got the impression I'm expecting her to follow debate rules...? Like the whole point is that all a Jingai wants is to get people to berate him so he can more easily control a narrative. My whole point has been to not feed into the narrative. Civility is often the best solution to combating the narrative, but it isn't universal. I don't believe all protests must be nonviolent, for instance.

I don't think you nor I would extend such charity to Bucket even though we can just as easily say the same of him.

[naraku360]

9 minutes ago, DragonSinger said:

So you're just gonna keep screaming racist instead of explaining why you're living with those folks?

Wait, what do you think I'm living with? They've been radicalized politically but we're talking some wacky cognitive dissonance. Like conservative upbringings, some worse than others, that's about all. Trump made it worse and has had a lasting effect. They're not especially bigoted or anything.

Maybe I made them out to be worse than intended? So, I wouldn't take much of what I've said over the years while clearly upset as gospel. I'm actually pretty sure I have some kind of severe anxiety disorder that teters on hallucination. Not currently diagnosed or anything, though.

[scoobdog]

45 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

I don't know where you got the impression I'm expecting her to follow debate rules...? Like the whole point is that all a Jingai wants is to get people to berate him so he can more easily control a narrative. My whole point has been to not feed into the narrative. Civility is often the best solution to combating the narrative, but it isn't universal. I don't believe all protests must be nonviolent, for instance.

I don't think you nor I would extend such charity to Bucket even though we can just as easily say the same of him.

That's not really what I got out of your argument, particularly after the tangential argument about changing people's minds.  FWIW, I agree that's what cow fucker wants, but he's also delusional about politics and life so the only real approach to him is neither civility nor confrontation - it's ignoring him.  He hasn't controlled any narrative beyond getting his shit handed to him on such a regular basis as to suggests he wants to be martyred, and the one thing martyrs hate is for their "sacrifice" to be ignored or forgotten.

[naraku360]

41 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

That's not really what I got out of your argument, particularly after the tangential argument about changing people's minds.  FWIW, I agree that's what cow fucker wants, but he's also delusional about politics and life so the only real approach to him is neither civility nor confrontation - it's ignoring him.  He hasn't controlled any narrative beyond getting his shit handed to him on such a regular basis as to suggests he wants to be martyred, and the one thing martyrs hate is for their "sacrifice" to be ignored or forgotten.

That was all in response to "the best way to handle the Jingais of the world is to shout them down" bit. I've been saying it's, like, the worst way to deal with them. Civility isn't for their sake. If anything, it just annoys them and their smooth brains aren't going to be strong on the impulse control.

I don't know how much more clear I can be in what I said. I was very direct in saying that if you're "shouting down" people, you're making it harder to deal with them because not all Jingais are this inept.

Edited January 9, 2023 by naraku360

[scoobdog]

24 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

That was all in response to "the best way to handle the Jingais of the world is to shout them down" bit. I've been saying it's, like, the worst way to deal with them. Civility isn't for their sake. If anything, it just annoys them and their smooth brains aren't going to be strong on the impulse control.

Ignoring them is the best way to deal with them, not being civil, and that's what Sorce does now.  In situations where he can't be ignored, you still don't waste time being civil to him or people like him, you tell him he's a piece of shit.  Like you said, civility is for your sake not theirs, and you're not gaining anything by being civil to a delusional nut case who isn't going to see reason.  Your best bet is to shut them down by any means necessary.

[DragonSinger]

3 hours ago, naraku360 said:

Wait, what do you think I'm living with? They've been radicalized politically but we're talking some wacky cognitive dissonance. Like conservative upbringings, some worse than others, that's about all. Trump made it worse and has had a lasting effect. They're not especially bigoted or anything.

Maybe I made them out to be worse than intended? So, I wouldn't take much of what I've said over the years while clearly upset as gospel. I'm actually pretty sure I have some kind of severe anxiety disorder that teters on hallucination. Not currently diagnosed or anything, though.

I have to get back to a tight writing schedule, so I don't have time to discuss the multiple issues you've posted in red. I will advise you to look up the definition of racist before you fix your fingers to call someone black that word for making very mild assumptions about conservatives. Because if you say this to anyone else black who does have the time, you're gonna get your feelings hurt.

[naraku360]

On 1/9/2023 at 1:44 PM, DragonSinger said:

I have to get back to a tight writing schedule, so I don't have time to discuss the multiple issues you've posted in red. I will advise you to look up the definition of racist before you fix your fingers to call someone black that word for making very mild assumptions about conservatives. Because if you say this to anyone else black who does have the time, you're gonna get your feelings hurt.

Oh, okay.

Before we get into semantics, "typically" would be the key word with regards to minorities or marginalized groups. This means "normally" or "usually," it does not mean "always."

Now, with 0 knowledge of my friends, you disregarded views because of them being "shitty white friends" and have used your own race to obfuscate responsibility.

These are both bigoted as it states 1. white people can't have valid opinions, and 2. your opinion is more valid because of your race/sex.

I am going to call people like Candace Owens racist for her portfolio of nazi shit regardless of her being black, and I'll call you racist regardless of you being black, because to do otherwise strictly based on your race would literally be racist.

 

I attempted to engage in a conversation about principles. You got hung up on semantics no matter how many times it was spelled out, made explicitly racist comments which opened by announcing it was always going to be something you would fall back on, and noped out with the very sincere, not at all exposing bad-faith "I, a published author, am above this conversation."

 

So pardon me for recognizing and calling out the disingenious tactics used purely to inflate your ego.

[naraku360]

On 1/9/2023 at 11:28 AM, scoobdog said:

Ignoring them is the best way to deal with them, not being civil, and that's what Sorce does now.  In situations where he can't be ignored, you still don't waste time being civil to him or people like him, you tell him he's a piece of shit.  Like you said, civility is for your sake not theirs, and you're not gaining anything by being civil to a delusional nut case who isn't going to see reason.  Your best bet is to shut them down by any means necessary.

Like this whole conversation has been me saying that it isn't a matter of civility for their sake. Any civility is a means to an end, and has nothing to do with coddling right-wingers.

I'm not going to hold people to a higher standard based off race. You know, out of principle.

[scoobdog]

22 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

Like this whole conversation has been me saying that it isn't a matter of civility for their sake. Any civility is a means to an end, and has nothing to do with coddling right-wingers.

I'm not going to hold people to a higher standard based off race. You know, out of principle.

You’re not really doing it for your own sake either. You get nothing out of civility other than making them not bother you.

[naraku360]

9 hours ago, scoobdog said:

You’re not really doing it for your own sake either. You get nothing out of civility other than making them not bother you.

Scoob, what part of "I was responding to the claim that 'shouting down' was the 'best way to handle them,' " is hard to understand?

Which of those words is confusing?

[scoobdog]

11 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

Scoob, what part of "I was responding to the claim that 'shouting down' was the 'best way to handle them,' " is hard to understand?

Which of those words is confusing?

The part where you apparently don’t get that I think it is the best way to handle them?

[cyberbully]

All of this....over ginguy.

 

[scoobdog]

8 hours ago, cyberbully said:

All of this....over ginguy.

 

Only worthwhile thing cow fucker has ever done in his entire life.

[naraku360]

10 hours ago, scoobdog said:

The part where you apparently don’t get that I think it is the best way to handle them?

And I'm saying falling for Ginguy's sorry excuse of trolling is the literal worst way to deal with it.

[scoobdog]

38 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

And I'm saying falling for Ginguy's sorry excuse of trolling is the literal worst way to deal with it.

So, we disagree.  There you go.

[naraku360]

1 hour ago, scoobdog said:

So, we disagree.  There you go.

.....

So you're dying on the "we should fall for Ginguy's trolling" hill?

 

'Cause that's quite a dumb one to die on.

[scoobdog]

Just now, naraku360 said:

.....

So you're dying on the "we should fall for Ginguy's trolling" hill?

 

'Cause that's quite a dumb one to die on.

Dude... who do you think you're talking to?   We of the esteemed DDR don't just embrace trolling, we wallow in it.  Plus, Sorce generally spikes on cow fucker at every opportunity, so I can't very well ask her not to pass up on it.

[naraku360]

2 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

Dude... who do you think you're talking to?   We of the esteemed DDR don't just embrace trolling, we wallow in it.  Plus, Sorce generally spikes on cow fucker at every opportunity, so I can't very well ask her not to pass up on it.

Pretty sure a quick dunk isn't the same as shouting down.

[scoobdog]

Just now, naraku360 said:

Pretty sure a quick dunk isn't the same as shouting down.

I suppose that's subject to interpretation.  If it's not, then you wasted two pages arguing nothing.