Black Clover is now Less Formulaic and Treats Women Better than Shonen Saint My Hero Academia

[ben0119]

18 hours ago, Daos said:

No one knows what causes sociopathy or psychopathy. Environment and upbringing are considered to be a factor though. Genetics also. Sometimes a person with a perfectly good upbringing becomes one, sometimes a person with the most horrible upbringing imaginable doesn't. 

My issue with Gon is that his sociopathy is so random. He's genuine and friendly, not a liar, cares about his friends.... and then is totally nonplussed by people dying horrible deaths to the point where he doesn't even bat an eye.

Do you guys really want to have another 20 page discussion on HxH? We just did that like a year ago.

Ben none of the stuff you listed for those kids would qualify them as a Mary Sue in any form of media. I watched a preview video for the show to see what you were talking about. Going to college at a young age does not make one a Mary Sue. Being good at math and also doing gymnastics does not make one a Mary Sue.

Now, if she becomes one of worlds greatest mathmaticians while also become an Olympic gymnast... then you'd have a case for an IRL Mary Sue. Except it still wouldn't be, because there would be no god like force bending the narrative of the world around her.

The issue is still the same as it's been, your brain will not allow you to understand the concept of what a Mary Sue is. Here's another character for you to not understand. I hear he's super competent.

 

Yep I agree with you on Gon.

We're supposed to be arguing about Black Clover!  At least we finally got you to agree that Black Clover is at least self-aware and winking and nodding at the shonen tropes as it uses them.  I move that it's also a parody to an extent as well because of some of the ridiculousness present that I mentioned here.

She's more of an engineer and builder than a mathematician, but yeah.  It wasn't mentioned how well she did in gymnastics, but the competition she was in was considered at least important and prestigious enough to be recorded on video and possibly televised, since they had footage of it.  Out of the various kids, I'd say Kirito isn't too far off from Elijah.  In the show it was also said he made a game console with 47,000 games, but it wasn't explained what these "games" were.  47,000 different version of Pong with slightly different physics?  Or did he just load up a bunch of ROMs on something?  Also kids have hacked into things.

Not agreeing on what characters are Mary Sues =/= not understanding what a Mary Sue is.  I gave the examples of Alice from Resident evil and the kid from Prince of Tennis.

Here's another one.  I agreed with the people who said that Nozomi from Bleach was a Mary-Sue.  And wouldn't you know it, I can't find much when I put that into Google.  She was one of those filler characters that gets introduced that's part of the plot of the arc, but it goes too far and she becomes way too much of a focal point, hogs the spotlight from the main characters, gets way over-powered in too quick a time.

This link briefly mentions that Nozomi has Mary Sue traits, so it proves that was at least something that was discussed back then.  I don't like TV Tropes, and you don't have to read all this (and definitely ignore the crazy from the person quoting it,) but it gives you an idea of the issues with Nozomi.  Oddly enough all the Mary Sue stuff is gone from her TV Tropes page now, unless I'm looking in the wrong place or something.

Weseley is... Weseley.  He's just generally annoying.  I can see what people mean when they call him a Mary Sue.  I didn't think of that when originally watching the show, probably because I hadn't heard of the concept at the time.  We do know the character was so hated he was put on a shuttle craft, lmao.

But mostly, my thing is, I just can't stand the constant parroting of Mary Sue.  It's a mind-numbingly stupid term that makes me feel stupider every time I have to read or write it.  And with a few exceptions it mostly comes from whiny manchildren who don't like female characters being too strong or competent.  It's also a term that's over-applied in general just because someone doesn't like a competent character.  I'm sure you could probably look up most protagonists and you'll find some idiot somewhere claiming they're a Mary Sue.  So it's hard for me to take seriously or have much patience for.  There's other ways to talk about these things without relying on lazy buzzword crutches, especially ones with baggage.

[ben0119]

20 hours ago, naraku360 said:

I'm not sure what's inconsistent about a kid who grew up with no friends only really caring when it's someone he knows and likes. That's pretty consistent.

If we consider environmental factors, he only really interacted with his aunt who likely taught him kindness, and animals which he probably saw a lot of the whole eating each other thing. Canonically, his closest "friend" prior to Killua up was... a pet bear he saved when it was a cub. Sort of pointlessly omitted from 2011, but a alluded to briefly later (not very well). It's in the first chapter/'99 first episode. That and bonding with a Hunter, who is the reason he found out his dad was alive, that taught him stuff lessons on defending himself and survival of the fittest. So he did get a mix of survivalism, likely exposure to death through an undomesticated bear, and compassion from his aunt. None of that is filler, by the way. Just botched in 2011.

But why though?  There was a village on that island.  Could Gon not socialize with other people?  Other children?  Does school not exist in this world? 

Goku was a wild boy who lived in the middle of nowhere and was just around his Grandpa, and he isn't a sociopath. Keep in mind, don't go off Super or any bullshit Toriyama has said years after the fact that conflict with Goku's actual personality in the original manga/anime.

I think even being around just one other person who was well-adjusted would probably make someone act like an actual person... and not how Gon does.  Lol sounds like some important things that shouldn't have been left out.  I remember someone from the Toonami Showdown podcast mentioning this, but kept it spoiler free.  Yeah those are bits of characterization you don't want to botch lol.  But it's hard to tell if this is even intentional by Togashi.  You say it's critiqued, but there is no indication of this in the first 50-something episodes that I can recall.

[Daos]

Wesley was a literal self insert for Roddenberry. Roddenberry wrote the character and his middle name was Wesley. He even gave the actor his Navy Ensign bars, his actual real ones. A dimension traveling alien actually comes and tells everyone how special Wesley is.

Kirito is a fairly obvious self insert for Reki.

How is it a buzzword? The only reason it gets used so much is because there's no shortage of complete hacks writing characters that aren't actually characters, just a series of feats and powers. A lot of which are just invented on the spot when the story calls for it.

That's part of the reason Goblin Slayer was number 1 in every state. People found it refreshing to see a character that wasn't a bundle of unexplained powers and plot armor.

Milla was married to the director of the Resident Evil series. He wrote the entire series around her instead of the actual characters from the games. Not the best idea.

[naraku360]

7 hours ago, ben0119 said:

But why though?  There was a village on that island.  Could Gon not socialize with other people?  Other children?  Does school not exist in this world? 

Goku was a wild boy who lived in the middle of nowhere and was just around his Grandpa, and he isn't a sociopath. Keep in mind, don't go off Super or any bullshit Toriyama has said years after the fact that conflict with Goku's actual personality in the original manga/anime.

I think even being around just one other person who was well-adjusted would probably make someone act like an actual person... and not how Gon does.  Lol sounds like some important things that shouldn't have been left out.  I remember someone from the Toonami Showdown podcast mentioning this, but kept it spoiler free.  Yeah those are bits of characterization you don't want to botch lol.  But it's hard to tell if this is even intentional by Togashi.  You say it's critiqued, but there is no indication of this in the first 50-something episodes that I can recall.

There was literally only one other kid in the village. That was explicitly stated in the first episode. Mito homeschooled him. Villages with 2 kids don't tend to have schools. Even the reason for Mito agreeing to let him leave is explored, since she taught him to be honest and accepted his bet as an apology for lying about his dad  being dead.

But Goku is more of a sociopath than Gon. Doesn't he deliberately put worlds in danger for the sake of getting a better fight on a number of occasions? Like, he could've won already but lets a galactic-Hitler go so he can fight against it when it's stronger?

There's plenty of critique early on [you only watched like 25, dude, you didn't make it through most of Heavens Arena which ends at 36]. They just don't monologue about it like in most shonens where they describe in excruciating detail the flaws of a character immediately before resolving it.

[Top Gun]

ITT ben complains that HxH explains too much while simultaneously complaining about the world-building it does via showing instead of telling.

[PokeNirvash]

Also it was Daos who dropped Hunter two cours in, if I'm remembering right.

[Daos]

I dropped it a few episodes into Greed Island.

[naraku360]

10 hours ago, ben0119 said:

I know, which is why I wondered if Gon was one because he had a good upbringing.  Well, some killers are considered to be sociopaths.  Where they see people as an inconvenience or obstacle to them, so they just kill them.  Like Scott Peterson.  Lol 20% of CEOs?  Who is your source on that?  Bernie?  Occasio-Cortez?  I can't really think of any shonen protagonists that are like that.  There's trusting too easily, but even the most trusting and innocent of shonen protagonists tend to be able to tell when someone is doing something they shouldn't be and will question their actions.  Gon either can't tell or simply doesn't care, and it comes off more like the latter.

There's an entire 60 episode arc that explores Gon's moral instability. Having a questionable protagonist doesn't make a series bad, for me it makes it much more interesting than one that's just good all the time since they tend to still do shitty things that get treated like a messiah's actions. A large part of the show is essentially that nobody is really good, but most aren't really bad. Even Hisoka does things to help Gon, but not because he's a good person or changed sides, and he doesn't really gain anything beyond observing someone he's interested in.

The CEO thing? Turns out I said sociopath  but it's apparently psychopath. Not as in "serial killer," more about personality traits. Try Harvard (doesn't have that number):

https://hbr.org/2004/10/executive-psychopaths

Business Insider:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ceos-often-have-psychopathic-traits-2017-7

Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-small-business/wp/2016/09/16/gene-marks-21-percent-of-ceos-are-psychopaths-only-21-percent/?utm_term=.e597f711c6be

Real easy to Google, by the way.

I'll respond to the rest eventually, gotta go to work and too lazy at the moment anyway.

But will say the border wall comment may have made me lose several IQ points.

[ben0119]

On 1/13/2019 at 11:52 AM, Daos said:

Wesley was a literal self insert for Roddenberry. Roddenberry wrote the character and his middle name was Wesley. He even gave the actor his Navy Ensign bars, his actual real ones. A dimension traveling alien actually comes and tells everyone how special Wesley is.

Kirito is a fairly obvious self insert for Reki.

How is it a buzzword? The only reason it gets used so much is because there's no shortage of complete hacks writing characters that aren't actually characters, just a series of feats and powers. A lot of which are just invented on the spot when the story calls for it.

That's part of the reason Goblin Slayer was number 1 in every state. People found it refreshing to see a character that wasn't a bundle of unexplained powers and plot armor.

Milla was married to the director of the Resident Evil series. He wrote the entire series around her instead of the actual characters from the games. Not the best idea.

I was going to say that but was too lazy to look it up and didn't want to be wrong, lol.  But yeah, self-insert for Roddenberry.  I wonder if he was aware the term came about from a woman who wrote a fanfic parodying Star Trek fanfiction way back when?  Like, literally Mary Sues came from Star Trek fans and he puts one his show, lol.  Yeah I remember that.  Was Wesley jettisoned off the show before or after Roddenberry died?

It gets used a lot, but overused in some cases.  As I said, not every character that gets accused of being a Mary-Sue actually is one.

Reki said he was inspired to write SAO because he was a big MMO fan but wasn't very good at them, and was impressed with the elite players in them, so he created SAO with those kind of characters.  I don't know if it's literal self-insert for Reki himself, but if the wish fulfillment for viewers is "good at videogames," there's a lot worse things you can do.

Number 1 in every state?  What?  Also I thought the show was reviled.  All this talk makes me want to check it out.  Chances of it getting on Toonami?

I talked about that before.  The whole series is basically the director shouting "look how awesome my wife is!"  The first movie is watchable at least, then the movies get progressively worse, but yeah, it's lame not having the game characters as main characters.  Kind of reminds me of Nozomi coming in and stealing the thunder from the established canon characters, or the original Mary Sue story, lol.

[ben0119]

On 1/13/2019 at 1:53 PM, Top Gun said:

ITT ben complains that HxH explains too much while simultaneously complaining about the world-building it does via showing instead of telling.

What world building?

I mean, you can say show and don't tell all you want, but if what is shown is contradictory and nonsensical...

[Top Gun]

There's plenty if you bother to watch more than 10 episodes before quitting and ignorantly bitching about it.  The series has a very consistent worldview, albeit one that is different than our own. You've already been explained this on multiple occasions.

[Daos]

13 hours ago, ben0119 said:

I was going to say that but was too lazy to look it up and didn't want to be wrong, lol.  But yeah, self-insert for Roddenberry.  I wonder if he was aware the term came about from a woman who wrote a fanfic parodying Star Trek fanfiction way back when?  Like, literally Mary Sues came from Star Trek fans and he puts one his show, lol.  Yeah I remember that.  Was Wesley jettisoned off the show before or after Roddenberry died?

It gets used a lot, but overused in some cases.  As I said, not every character that gets accused of being a Mary-Sue actually is one.

Reki said he was inspired to write SAO because he was a big MMO fan but wasn't very good at them, and was impressed with the elite players in them, so he created SAO with those kind of characters.  I don't know if it's literal self-insert for Reki himself, but if the wish fulfillment for viewers is "good at videogames," there's a lot worse things you can do.

Number 1 in every state?  What?  Also I thought the show was reviled.  All this talk makes me want to check it out.  Chances of it getting on Toonami?

I talked about that before.  The whole series is basically the director shouting "look how awesome my wife is!"  The first movie is watchable at least, then the movies get progressively worse, but yeah, it's lame not having the game characters as main characters.  Kind of reminds me of Nozomi coming in and stealing the thunder from the established canon characters, or the original Mary Sue story, lol.

Crunchyroll keeps track of views in every State and Country, it was number 1 in every US State. Slime was second. For Toonami...... maybe? It's already dubbed. But will we wait a few months like we did for Megalobox? Or years like we did for Mob and MHA?

I think Wesley got shit canned after Rodenberry died. The show ran for 3 years after his death and that seems like about the time Wesley went off to Starfleet Academy... i think he was only seen twice after that.

 

 

[ben0119]

22 hours ago, Top Gun said:

There's plenty if you bother to watch more than 10 episodes before quitting and ignorantly bitching about it.  The series has a very consistent worldview, albeit one that is different than our own. You've already been explained this on multiple occasions.

I watched up through Heaven's Tower or whatever it's called.  And you shouldn't need that many episodes to explain things.  On the first episode of most shows you instantly understand their world, with of course more than can be elaborated and expanded upon later.  That worldview is why I sometimes question if human psychology works different in that world or maybe Togashi doesn't just understand how people work.

[ben0119]

On 1/13/2019 at 1:34 PM, naraku360 said:

There was literally only one other kid in the village. That was explicitly stated in the first episode. Mito homeschooled him. Villages with 2 kids don't tend to have schools. Even the reason for Mito agreeing to let him leave is explored, since she taught him to be honest and accepted his bet as an apology for lying about his dad  being dead.

But Goku is more of a sociopath than Gon. Doesn't he deliberately put worlds in danger for the sake of getting a better fight on a number of occasions? Like, he could've won already but lets a galactic-Hitler go so he can fight against it when it's stronger?

There's plenty of critique early on [you only watched like 25, dude, you didn't make it through most of Heavens Arena which ends at 36]. They just don't monologue about it like in most shonens where they describe in excruciating detail the flaws of a character immediately before resolving it.

I don't remember that.  And why would there only be two kids in an entire town?  Doesn't make much sense.  Do homeschooled children have socialization issues?  From what I quickly and lazily searched up, seems like probably do but it's hard to get good data, since a lot of the studies are done by homeschooling advocates.  She lied about his dad being dead?

Well, Goku let Vegeta live because he said he wanted to fight him again.  Though, it's worth noting that Vegeta was supposed to die here, after his original appearance, but was kept alive by the editors because Vegeta was popular.  I mean, a lot of the Z Fighters are past enemies, but Vegeta was introduced as someone who slaughtered billions if not trillions, and enjoyed it.  Later Toriyama tries to retcon it as Frieza made him do it and was just following orders, etc.  Goku lets Frieza power up completely because he says he wants to fight Frieza at his best.  It seems obvious before this that even if Frieza was at full power, he wouldn't stand a chance against Super Saiyan Goku.  Of course, Frieza is still extremely dangerous and should've just been put down as quickly as possible once Goku had the upper hand.  At the end, Goku even gives Frieza some of his own energy, granting him mercy, thinking he might change or at least crawl off somewhere, but he attacks Goku so Goku has to take him out.  Really what it is, is Goku is merciful, sometimes because he wants a chance to fight them again, or a naive notion they might change their ways, or both, and in a lot of cases to people who do not deserve it.  But what makes even less sense is Goku straight up killed fools when he was a kid, and as far as I'm aware there's never any explanation given for this character change.  But to be fair, all the other characters chew out Goku for this behavior. 

I watched through that Heaven's Arena stuff.  Don't know which episode I stopped on.  Was around the time the show finally got around to explaining how its fighting system works long after I stopped caring, in an extremely boring and uninteresting way, and Gon and Killua chopping people in the back.  I don't really recall anyone calling Gon's actions into question.  Mostly people just talked about how special and awesome he is.

[ben0119]

On 1/13/2019 at 2:31 PM, naraku360 said:

There's an entire 60 episode arc that explores Gon's moral instability. Having a questionable protagonist doesn't make a series bad, for me it makes it much more interesting than one that's just good all the time since they tend to still do shitty things that get treated like a messiah's actions. A large part of the show is essentially that nobody is really good, but most aren't really bad. Even Hisoka does things to help Gon, but not because he's a good person or changed sides, and he doesn't really gain anything beyond observing someone he's interested in.

The CEO thing? Turns out I said sociopath  but it's apparently psychopath. Not as in "serial killer," more about personality traits. Try Harvard (doesn't have that number):

https://hbr.org/2004/10/executive-psychopaths

Business Insider:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ceos-often-have-psychopathic-traits-2017-7

Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-small-business/wp/2016/09/16/gene-marks-21-percent-of-ceos-are-psychopaths-only-21-percent/?utm_term=.e597f711c6be

Real easy to Google, by the way.

I'll respond to the rest eventually, gotta go to work and too lazy at the moment anyway.

But will say the border wall comment may have made me lose several IQ points.

So, it takes 70-something episodes to get to an arc that takes 60 episodes to critique Gon's morals.  Ok lol.  I don't know what shows you're talking about where protagonists get to act like assholes and get away with it.  It's also a false choice to say it has to be one of those two options.  Hisoka isn't really bad?  WUT lol.  How about the Phantom Troupe?  Come the fuck on.  I didn't watch the arc with them in it, but they slaughtered an entire ethnicity of people for money.  There's not much wiggle room there.  Some of the Zoldyck family are also pretty clearly horrible people, but the show treats them like they're just "wacky," like the anime version of the Addams Family or Munsters or something.  It's not funny.  It's just dumb and nonsensical.

The first link says the data isn't in yet.  The second one says 90% of prisoners show signs of psychopathy, the third link says it's the same percent as CEOS, 21%.  And it says that someone can be cured of psychopathy?!  That's news to me!

I do remember reading/hearing something about investment bankers tend to be aggressive assholes, and that women shouldn't be feel bad there's a shortage of women investment bankers because of this.  I can't find it now.

[naraku360]

6 hours ago, ben0119 said:

So, it takes 70-something episodes to get to an arc that takes 60 episodes to critique Gon's morals.  Ok lol.  I don't know what shows you're talking about where protagonists get to act like assholes and get away with it.  It's also a false choice to say it has to be one of those two options.  Hisoka isn't really bad?  WUT lol.  How about the Phantom Troupe?  Come the fuck on.  I didn't watch the arc with them in it, but they slaughtered an entire ethnicity of people for money.  There's not much wiggle room there.  Some of the Zoldyck family are also pretty clearly horrible people, but the show treats them like they're just "wacky," like the anime version of the Addams Family or Munsters or something.  It's not funny.  It's just dumb and nonsensical.

The first link says the data isn't in yet.  The second one says 90% of prisoners show signs of psychopathy, the third link says it's the same percent as CEOS, 21%.  And it says that someone can be cured of psychopathy?!  That's news to me!

I do remember reading/hearing something about investment bankers tend to be aggressive assholes, and that women shouldn't be feel bad there's a shortage of women investment bankers because of this.  I can't find it now.

No, there's plenty of examples before then. That's just the main arc explicitly about it. The Phantom Troupe get quite a bit of humanization, even though they're still terrible people. Hisoka is almost always treated as a terrible person, even with the rare good deed. The chimera ants nearly slaughter a nation and literal side characters get enough characterization to put virtually any shonen protagonist to shame. It's also pretty common for everyone in the show to think Gon is weird at best, if not completely crazy. Are you serious about the Zoldyks? They're treated as being terrible people. They have eccentric attributes but nobody thinks they're good people. Do you think villains are required to be super serious to be considered bad?

[PokeNirvash]

Ben likes it simple. Anything that exhibits more than one dimension, be it a person or a setting, comes off as contradictory to him.

[Jman]

This is still going...

[Daos]

We're relitigating the merits of HXH now.

I don't really see the point, I think everyone said their piece on it already in another 10 page thread.

[Blatch]

6 hours ago, Jman said:

This is still going...

Is it any worse than the time we all argued about Star Wars?

[ben0119]

On 1/23/2019 at 11:46 AM, PokeNirvash said:

Ben likes it simple. Anything that exhibits more than one dimension, be it a person or a setting, comes off as contradictory to him.

No that's not it.  I just don't like HxH's execution, or lack thereof.  The world doesn't make sense, and, at the very least, the characters aren't appealing.

[ben0119]

On 1/23/2019 at 11:22 AM, naraku360 said:

No, there's plenty of examples before then. That's just the main arc explicitly about it. The Phantom Troupe get quite a bit of humanization, even though they're still terrible people. Hisoka is almost always treated as a terrible person, even with the rare good deed. The chimera ants nearly slaughter a nation and literal side characters get enough characterization to put virtually any shonen protagonist to shame. It's also pretty common for everyone in the show to think Gon is weird at best, if not completely crazy. Are you serious about the Zoldyks? They're treated as being terrible people. They have eccentric attributes but nobody thinks they're good people. Do you think villains are required to be super serious to be considered bad?

Well now it's not the show.  You're contradicting yourself.  First you said Hisoka isn't really bad, now you say he's almost always treated as a terrible person.  I just remember people talking about how special Gon was and how much potential he has.  There's lots of shonens with well-developed side characters.  The Zoldyck house is on a celebrity house tour... Killua is strung up in chains being tortured by his brother.  But Killua acts unimpressed and then it turns out he could just get out of the chains on his own all along.  Togashi is clearly going for some LOL WACKY ANIME JOKES there, but we're still supposed to believe Killua has had an abusive upbringing and his family are monsters, even though he no-sells the torture and the whole thing is treated like a wacky sitcom.  Trying to have his cake and eat it too.  It's one thing to have villains with a comedic bent, but to treat their actual terrible deeds like comic relief... "KILLUA IS BORED AND UNIMPRESSED BY HIS ROUTINE TORTURE LOLOLOLOL"

Edited January 27, 2019 by ben0119

[naraku360]

7 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Well now it's not the show.  You're contradicting yourself.  First you said Hisoka isn't really bad, now you say he's almost always treated as a terrible person.  I just remember people talking about how special Gon was and how much potential he has.  There's lots of shonens with well-developed side characters.  The Zoldyck house is on a celebrity house tour... Killua is strung up in chains being tortured by his brother.  But Killua acts unimpressed and then it turns out he could just get out of the chains on his own all along.  Togashi is clearly going for some LOL WACKY ANIME JOKES there, but we're still supposed to believe Killua has had an abusive upbringing and his family are monsters, even though he no-sells the torture and the whole thing is treated like a wacky sitcom.  Trying to have his cake and eat it too.  It's one thing to have villains with a comedic bent, but to treat their actual terrible deeds like comic relief... "KILLUA IS BORED AND UNIMPRESSED BY HIS ROUTINE TORTURE LOLOLOLOL"

You're literally impossible to have a discussion with. Like, you'll ignore all ythe nonsensical character contradictions of Kirito because you like SAO, but even the simplest of characterization is some massive flaw in anything you don't like. A part of good characterization is conflicts that make characters behave differently or in contrary to their normal actions based on circumstance. Hisoka will help others, but he's a pretty simple character and it always has a selfish motive. That's not a contradictory statement.

Really, explaining baby's first writing lessons has become super boring again. I've had my fill.

Edited January 27, 2019 by naraku360

[PokeNirvash]

God, I wish Ben would just ragequit the Internet forever already. Having to bother with his attempts to come off as normal even though he's anything but has gotten so goddamn tiring over the years.

[ben0119]

On 1/27/2019 at 10:25 AM, naraku360 said:

You're literally impossible to have a discussion with. Like, you'll ignore all ythe nonsensical character contradictions of Kirito because you like SAO, but even the simplest of characterization is some massive flaw in anything you don't like. A part of good characterization is conflicts that make characters behave differently or in contrary to their normal actions based on circumstance. Hisoka will help others, but he's a pretty simple character and it always has a selfish motive. That's not a contradictory statement.

Really, explaining baby's first writing lessons has become super boring again. I've had my fill.

Kirito has been fairly consistent as a character.  Not sure what contradictions you are talking about.  Well, there are still characters I liked in HxH, like Kurapika and Leorio, but I would describe it like some of the Naruto characters I like - good characters trapped in a bad show.  I don't care much for Killua but I can see what they were going for with him, at least.  That isn't what you said, though.  You said "even Hisoka isn't really bad."  Hisoka does more or less make sense as a character, but what you said didn't.  Gon is the one that doesn't make sense, and the overall world itself.

Well, we're supposed to be talking about Black Clover and My Hero Academia, anyway. =3

Edited February 2, 2019 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 1/27/2019 at 10:38 AM, PokeNirvash said:

God, I wish Ben would just ragequit the Internet forever already. Having to bother with his attempts to come off as normal even though he's anything but has gotten so goddamn tiring over the years.

You're one of those people who can dish it out but can't take it.  You're coming off like a hypocrite when you accused me of "bullying" you in that other thread.  I mean, you don't exactly come off as normal yourself.  An Aspie bullying Aspies!  WAAAAAH HOW COULD YOU, POKE!

And I don't "attempt to come off as normal" or anything else.  I simply be myself.  I'm not going to ragequit for your or anyone else, either.

Edited February 2, 2019 by ben0119

[PokeNirvash]

I don't know why either of us even try anymore.

[Jman]

6 hours ago, PokeNirvash said:

I don't know why either of us even try anymore.

That futile hope you’ll break through?

[naraku360]

10 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Kirito has been fairly consistent as a character.  Not sure what contradictions you are talking about.  Well, there are still characters I liked in HxH, like Kurapika and Leorio, but I would describe it like some of the Naruto characters I like - good characters trapped in a bad show.  I don't care much for Killua but I can see what they were going for with him, at least.  That isn't what you said, though.  You said "even Hisoka isn't really bad."  Hisoka does more or less make sense as a character, but what you said didn't.  Gon is the one that doesn't make sense, and the overall world itself.

Well, we're supposed to be talking about Black Clover and My Hero Academia, anyway. =3

That seems like a misquote. If not, a poorly phrased statement but even so the context should have made it clear I wasn't saying the series presents Hisoka positively, especially when it's well-established that he acts primarily on what's entertaining. The point being it does lead to sometimes helping people despite it being in self-interest. That sort of behavior, regardless of the simplicity, is stronger characterization than something like Aizen whose just a bad dude who does bad things because evil. It's also stronger characterization than having Kirito grow the most off-screen and fluctuate in personality dramatically because of it. Gon is pretty consistent in what's been described, as well.

Either way, whatevz.

[ben0119]

On 1/23/2019 at 5:06 AM, ben0119 said:

There's an entire 60 episode arc that explores Gon's moral instability. Having a questionable protagonist doesn't make a series bad, for me it makes it much more interesting than one that's just good all the time since they tend to still do shitty things that get treated like a messiah's actions. A large part of the show is essentially that nobody is really good, but most aren't really bad. Even Hisoka does things to help Gon, but not because he's a good person or changed sides, and he doesn't really gain anything beyond observing someone he's interested in.

This is what you said.

5 hours ago, naraku360 said:

That seems like a misquote. If not, a poorly phrased statement but even so the context should have made it clear I wasn't saying the series presents Hisoka positively, especially when it's well-established that he acts primarily on what's entertaining. The point being it does lead to sometimes helping people despite it being in self-interest. That sort of behavior, regardless of the simplicity, is stronger characterization than something like Aizen whose just a bad dude who does bad things because evil. It's also stronger characterization than having Kirito grow the most off-screen and fluctuate in personality dramatically because of it. Gon is pretty consistent in what's been described, as well.

Either way, whatevz.

"Most aren't really bad," then you go on to talk about Hisoka.  And I would argue there are a ton of characters that are definitely "really bad" in HxH, whether they are "most" of them are not, I couldn't say for sure.  I see now how I could have maybe misread that, though.  Aizen isn't a bad dude who does things because evil, though.  He didn't like the status quo and felt that the Soul Society was corrupt, denounced the Soul King, etc.  He's not wrong, and when we do find out about the Soul King, yeah, it's pretty fucked up.  As the whole series goes on we find out more of the shittiness the Soul Society and its leadership and government are responsible for.  Basically any villain in the series whose motivation is a grudge against the Soul Society is understandable why they would feel that way, even if what they're doing in response specifically isn't justified and is wrong.  Aizen does things for entertainment, as well, which is obvious.  He likes to fuck with people.  He made himself Momo's mentor and then turned on her, stabbing her, and flaunted it to Toshiro, who is like her brother.  Later on in the series he uses his zanpakuto to create an illusion and swap places with Momo so that Toshiro ended up stabbing her instead of Aizen.  He could have swapped places with anyone else on the sidelines, or even just had the Soul Reapers fighting nobody, but he chose to do that, arguably for his own amusement.  There's also another scene where Shunsui says he is going to stop Aizen from talking as he attacks him, and Aizen says he will fight Shunsui and keep talking, basically saying he's going to continue his villain monologue no matter what, which is not only more proof of Aizen doing something for his own entertainment, but one of the self-aware jokes Bleach likes to make. 

I thought we had already agreed that the time skip stuff in SAO Aincrad was a problem.  If that's what you mean, then yes, I agree on that.  I think Asuna was worse, though, she went from a shy and timid girl, justifiably scared due to living in Aincrad, opens up a bit after participating in a battle with Kirito and others (if I remember correctly,) to later being a take-no-nonsense badass bitch.  People accused her of being tsundere, but really she was just annoyed with Kirito slacking off and not having his shit together.  Complete personality shift, and it happened during a time skip because Asuna joined the group that was trying to beat the game.  Similar but not as bad things happened with Kirito.  The fact the stuff was done off-screen is a problem for sure, but at least there's an explanation and we get a sense of why they changed.  And there is definitely a lot of on-screen character development.  I am very curious as to what all blanks Reki filled in with Progressive.  For Gon, I dunno, man, it just doesn't make sense to me.  I just don't see how Gon could act the way he does given what we know abut him; his background and basically anything else in the series doesn't justify it unless there's some reveal later on that Gon has some sort of mental and/or personality disorder.

Edited February 3, 2019 by ben0119

[naraku360]

Not going to bother replying to most of that since reading it is tedious snd redundant. I was pretty clearly stating that the characters, regardless of how bad of people they are, have redeeming qualities. Hisoka isn't about to go on a redemption quest like the hokey bs a show like One Piece or Bleach or DBZ would pull if a bad guy changes sides, but isn't opposed to helping someone if he can get something out of it. I'm not sure what part of Gon is confusing, what I've stated about him is consistent with the show and present from the get-go. He's not really that hard to understand just because he has more to him than Goku's dumber than a rock and wanna fight modus operandi that encompasses the entirety of his personality.

[ben0119]

If you're talking about Vegeta specifically, then I agree with you that it's a little bit silly he gets to join the good guys after everything he did, but other former enemies turned allies in DBZ didn't do anything near that level.  Worse villains were simply killed off or defeated and never heard from again, etc.  When we learn that Vegeta was meant to die but was kept around due to popularity at the request of editors, it makes a lot more sense.  I do agree that some shonens go too far in trying to redeem villains sometimes, especially some that are clearly irredeemable.  I don't know, you said that Hisoka would help people if it benefited him.  I don't see how that's a redeeming quality, but ok.  I didn't suddenly think that Hisoka was a great guy when he let Gon have the badge.  Well, Goku also cares about people and wants to protect people, there are other aspects to his personality. 

Maybe it's more that I don't personally think what we know about Gon justifies his behavior.  Gon was raised by a normal, well-adjusted person, even if he didn't have his actual parents, and did things out in the woods.  There was also a whole village on the island.  I don't see how this explains quasi-sociopathic behavior.  If this were true, every person that lived "off the grid," or even in rural areas, might act this way.  But this isn't what we see in the real world.  If anything, it should make someone more protective and caring because they have to work harder to survive and make a living, if they are in some "mountain man" scenario, or just living out in the middle of nowhere.  The fewer people there are, the more they are going to have to work together and depend on each other.  It makes things more closeknit.  So like I said, unless there's some reveal of him having a mental or personality disorder, it's not sufficient to explain why he is the way he is.

[naraku360]

I don't know what normal or well-adjusted must mean to you if Gon's upbringing sounds normal or well-adjusted. 

[ben0119]

He was raised by other people in a town.  I don't know what's supposed to be so weird about it.  Yes he was around animals and saw "nature in action" and all that, but so has anyone who has lived in a rural area or somewhere isolated, say they worked on a farm, or hunted, etc, and those people aren't all sociopaths.  Basically, Gon is like that because he is, apparently.

[ben0119]

Anyway, I'm glad that my complaint about My Hero Academia was addressed in tonight's episode.  Froppy, and especially Momo, did really well tonight.  Not really affecting the plot much yet, but still, an improvement!

[stilgar]

Wasn't your complaint about Mt hero Academia that it wasn't as shitty as the shitty shows you like to watch.

[Top Gun]

20 hours ago, ben0119 said:

This is what you said.

"Most aren't really bad," then you go on to talk about Hisoka.  And I would argue there are a ton of characters that are definitely "really bad" in HxH, whether they are "most" of them are not, I couldn't say for sure.  I see now how I could have maybe misread that, though.  Aizen isn't a bad dude who does things because evil, though.  He didn't like the status quo and felt that the Soul Society was corrupt, denounced the Soul King, etc.  He's not wrong, and when we do find out about the Soul King, yeah, it's pretty fucked up.  As the whole series goes on we find out more of the shittiness the Soul Society and its leadership and government are responsible for.  Basically any villain in the series whose motivation is a grudge against the Soul Society is understandable why they would feel that way, even if what they're doing in response specifically isn't justified and is wrong.  Aizen does things for entertainment, as well, which is obvious.  He likes to fuck with people.  He made himself Momo's mentor and then turned on her, stabbing her, and flaunted it to Toshiro, who is like her brother.  Later on in the series he uses his zanpakuto to create an illusion and swap places with Momo so that Toshiro ended up stabbing her instead of Aizen.  He could have swapped places with anyone else on the sidelines, or even just had the Soul Reapers fighting nobody, but he chose to do that, arguably for his own amusement.  There's also another scene where Shunsui says he is going to stop Aizen from talking as he attacks him, and Aizen says he will fight Shunsui and keep talking, basically saying he's going to continue his villain monologue no matter what, which is not only more proof of Aizen doing something for his own entertainment, but one of the self-aware jokes Bleach likes to make.

The most hilarious part about all of this is that the end of the day, absolutely nothing changes.  The Soul Society was a completely shitty place at the start of the series, and it's a completely shitty place at the end.  They even rebuild the goddamn execution device that Rukia now has to look at every single day of her life.  And Ichigo's fine with this and doesn't do anything about it.  But yeah, Gon's the character who's a sociopath.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Top Gun

[naraku360]

15 hours ago, ben0119 said:

He was raised by other people in a town.  I don't know what's supposed to be so weird about it.  Yes he was around animals and saw "nature in action" and all that, but so has anyone who has lived in a rural area or somewhere isolated, say they worked on a farm, or hunted, etc, and those people aren't all sociopaths.  Basically, Gon is like that because he is, apparently.

No, he mostly ignored the village. The only relationships he had outside Mito were Kite [mentor] and his great-grandmother [family. None were his age since he didn't interact with the only other kid in the village, making Killua essentially his first actual friend.

And being raised by a caring family doesn't negate the impact of not having a parent. Children raised by secondary family members are believed to have higher risk of emotional/mental health issues, though the research is fairly limited.

Mental disorders are also found to have biological components and Ging is shown to have likely antisocial traits, even as a renowned Hunter, he's hated by most people that know about him in more detail.

None of that means he can't be friendly with the villagers, to be clear, but it falls in line with what's known about psychological disorders. You have a probable biology, a lack of consistent social interaction, and a fill-in parental figure. How good of a parent Mito was [and she had her faults, such as being unable to get Gon to socialize and eventually letting him run around a dangerous forrest unattended despite not approving of it] is pretty irrelevant.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4398590/

http://triggered.edina.clockss.org/ServeContent?rft_id=info:doi/10.1093/brief-treatment/mhn016

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2083282/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK55333/

Edited February 3, 2019 by naraku360

[ben0119]

On 2/3/2019 at 4:58 PM, naraku360 said:

No, he mostly ignored the village. The only relationships he had outside Mito were Kite [mentor] and his great-grandmother [family. None were his age since he didn't interact with the only other kid in the village, making Killua essentially his first actual friend.

And being raised by a caring family doesn't negate the impact of not having a parent. Children raised by secondary family members are believed to have higher risk of emotional/mental health issues, though the research is fairly limited.

Mental disorders are also found to have biological components and Ging is shown to have likely antisocial traits, even as a renowned Hunter, he's hated by most people that know about him in more detail.

None of that means he can't be friendly with the villagers, to be clear, but it falls in line with what's known about psychological disorders. You have a probable biology, a lack of consistent social interaction, and a fill-in parental figure. How good of a parent Mito was [and she had her faults, such as being unable to get Gon to socialize and eventually letting him run around a dangerous forrest unattended despite not approving of it] is pretty irrelevant.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4398590/

http://triggered.edina.clockss.org/ServeContent?rft_id=info:doi/10.1093/brief-treatment/mhn016

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2083282/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK55333/

None of this is portrayed very well in the show, though.  I never got the impression that Gon had a psychological disorder, or that he ignored the rest of the village.  This stuff you're talking about with Ging must not come until way later.  You said some of this was cut or botched in the anime.  So, the classic READ THE MANGA excuse, like we got with Tokyo Ghoul.  Yup, I'm sure the Tokyo Ghoul manga was a fucking masterpiece, lol.  It comes off more like Gon is some happy go lucky kid who plays in a forest with his animal friends and whatnot.  The art style and character design gives this impression too, which was part of the SUBVERSION of course.  So when he starts acting the way he does later on, it doesn't make sense.  And not because it's unexpected, but because it's not explained.  And like I said, there's a lack of context.  How are we supposed to know what "normal" is in this world when everyone is fucked up?  In fact, you could say, that if everyone is fucked up, then fucked up is normal.  People who are actually nice would be considered abnormal.  That's why I said it's not even clear if the human brain works the same in this universe, because of how everyone acts.  Because, in the real world, even in places where people have been living in places for generations under shitty conditions, you still find human kindness and decency.

Edited February 9, 2019 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 2/3/2019 at 4:05 PM, Top Gun said:

The most hilarious part about all of this is that the end of the day, absolutely nothing changes.  The Soul Society was a completely shitty place at the start of the series, and it's a completely shitty place at the end.  They even rebuild the goddamn execution device that Rukia now has to look at every single day of her life.  And Ichigo's fine with this and doesn't do anything about it.  But yeah, Gon's the character who's a sociopath.

What the hell are you talking about?  They don't rebuild the execution device, if you mean that rack thing.  They sure as hell don't rebuild the Sokyoku itself.  Every time we see the Sokyoku Hill after that, it's just empty,  As for the hill, no they don't demolish the hill.  It's a damn land form.  And Ichigo confronts the Soul Society and their bullshit multiple times.  It's also shown that various formerly rigid characters, like Yamamoto and Byakuya, soften due to Ichigo's influence.  Rukia even says how Ichigo has improved the Soul Society.  I think it was after Aizen was beaten, or end of Fullbring Arc.  There's also some Soul Reapers who fight against the system and to improve it.  So, I'd say the Soul Society had definitely improved over the course of the series, even if it's not exactly a paradise by the end.

[The1gairon]

15 hours ago, ben0119 said:

What the hell are you talking about?  They don't rebuild the execution device, if you mean that rack thing.  They sure as hell don't rebuild the Sokyoku itself.  Every time we see the Sokyoku Hill after that, it's just empty, 

[Top Gun]

18 hours ago, ben0119 said:

What the hell are you talking about?  They don't rebuild the execution device, if you mean that rack thing.  They sure as hell don't rebuild the Sokyoku itself.  Every time we see the Sokyoku Hill after that, it's just empty,  As for the hill, no they don't demolish the hill.  It's a damn land form.  And Ichigo confronts the Soul Society and their bullshit multiple times.  It's also shown that various formerly rigid characters, like Yamamoto and Byakuya, soften due to Ichigo's influence.  Rukia even says how Ichigo has improved the Soul Society.  I think it was after Aizen was beaten, or end of Fullbring Arc.  There's also some Soul Reapers who fight against the system and to improve it.  So, I'd say the Soul Society had definitely improved over the course of the series, even if it's not exactly a paradise by the end.

There is a panel from the last chapter of the manga that shows it in stark black and white. It's still there.

And if by "confronts" you mean "whined about it once or twice but did absolutely nothing to fix it," then absolutely. 

[naraku360]

On 2/8/2019 at 9:49 PM, ben0119 said:

None of this is portrayed very well in the show, though.  I never got the impression that Gon had a psychological disorder, or that he ignored the rest of the village.  This stuff you're talking about with Ging must not come until way later.  You said some of this was cut or botched in the anime.  So, the classic READ THE MANGA excuse, like we got with Tokyo Ghoul.  Yup, I'm sure the Tokyo Ghoul manga was a fucking masterpiece, lol.  It comes off more like Gon is some happy go lucky kid who plays in a forest with his animal friends and whatnot.  The art style and character design gives this impression too, which was part of the SUBVERSION of course.  So when he starts acting the way he does later on, it doesn't make sense.  And not because it's unexpected, but because it's not explained.  And like I said, there's a lack of context.  How are we supposed to know what "normal" is in this world when everyone is fucked up?  In fact, you could say, that if everyone is fucked up, then fucked up is normal.  People who are actually nice would be considered abnormal.  That's why I said it's not even clear if the human brain works the same in this universe, because of how everyone acts.  Because, in the real world, even in places where people have been living in places for generations under shitty conditions, you still find human kindness and decency.

I haven't read the manga outside the current arc. I do think it's shown much better in '99 but it's not completely absent in 2011. Gon explicitly tells Killua he's his first friend within an episode or two of meeting and I believe the villagers state that Gon's spends his time in the woods. The omission of Kite in 2011's beginning is outright bullshit, that's a big mistake. So I don't think it was completely absent but not done very well in the early sections for the newer adaption.

[Top Gun]

Yeah, I think we had at least two full episodes on Whale Island at the start of the '99 adaptation.

[ben0119]

On 2/9/2019 at 3:56 PM, elfie said:

There's nothing on the hill...

[ben0119]

On 2/9/2019 at 7:00 PM, Top Gun said:

There is a panel from the last chapter of the manga that shows it in stark black and white. It's still there.

And if by "confronts" you mean "whined about it once or twice but did absolutely nothing to fix it," then absolutely. 

I see what you're talking about now.  It's the second-to-last chapter, actually.  I didn't think of what that actually was, originally. 

Spoiler

It's a much larger version of the original, but it's the same basic shape, so I can't think of anything else it could be.  I guess it was rebuilt in that way to maybe reinforce the hill, which took heavy damage along with the rest of the Seireitei during the war with the Quincies.  But yeah, I don't have any excuse or explanation for why it would be rebuilt.  It got a whole 2-page spread, too, so it's not like Kubo was subtly throwing it in there or anything.  Surely there were other iconic Soul Society structures that could have been rebuilt and have a cool spread page that weren't... that thing?  And how is it going to function if the actual Sokyoku is still destroyed?  Unless that got remade too.  Blah.

Ichigo and other characters "fought against the system" and did what they could, as I said.  I'm not going to go over and over with it, with you.  No one is going to claim the Soul Society is a great place, but no one is going to claim Ichigo is a sociopath for not reforming its government by becoming Hokage or whatever the hell, either.

Spoiler

It is worth noting that Bach was right with his last speech when he was defeated.  But would a world ruled by him really be free of fear, as he claimed?

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 2/10/2019 at 1:02 AM, naraku360 said:

I haven't read the manga outside the current arc. I do think it's shown much better in '99 but it's not completely absent in 2011. Gon explicitly tells Killua he's his first friend within an episode or two of meeting and I believe the villagers state that Gon's spends his time in the woods. The omission of Kite in 2011's beginning is outright bullshit, that's a big mistake. So I don't think it was completely absent but not done very well in the early sections for the newer adaption.

I must have forgotten the stuff about Gon saying Killua was his first friend or the stuff with the villagers.  What I remember was him telling Killua that they're already friends, during the confrontation with his brother at the Hunter Exam, which was way after they first met (one of the few good moments in the show, I'll admit.)  Either way, Gon still isn't likable.  Neither is Killua.  As I said, we were sold the bill of goods that it was going to them along with Kurapika and Leorio as the main group, when it doesn't turn out that way at all.  It's just Gon and Killua.  So, yeah.  I remember on that podcast they said something was omitted from the beginning that was kind of important, but would come up later.  Didn't realize it was that important.  Definitely was a mistake. 

Most people aren't going to go out of their way to watch an earlier version of an anime and then combine the "best parts" a la carte, or anything, though.  It would be jarring, with the different production values, art and animation styles, voice actors, then trying to find a way to watch it etc.  Most people just aren't going to do that.  It's not a 1:1 example or anything, but if someone hated FMA03 or FMA:B, would they go and watch the other version?  I mean, they're different, but not that different.  It's the same characters, concepts, settings, themes, just things play out differently eventually.  I know some have have said the first anime is a drama show with some action, and the second anime is an action show with some drama.  Then there's dispute about which show is darker; I'd say both are pretty dark at times.  People try to tell people to watch the first half of FMA03 then switch to some point (can't remember) in FMA:B and I can't see that working at all.  I do know I cared a lot more about Hughes in FMA03.  Not sure if I would feel different if I had seen FMA:B first.  People say Hughes was always supposed to be a minor character, not like he was in FMA03, but then why should we care?  But yeah it's kind of a tricky thing.

Edited February 16, 2019 by ben0119