Black Clover is now Less Formulaic and Treats Women Better than Shonen Saint My Hero Academia

[ben0119]

11 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

Bruh.... they had access to the devices. Hackers don't...

Dude.

They don't use the software as installed or intended. Hacking is, you know, literally breaking into the software. So no, they wouldn't have to play the game to get to the special console.

And if Kirito has a normal consumer console, and his can gain access to the special console, then any device can get there.

But just having the devices isn't enough.  That's what is used to access SAO.  SAO isn't in the headset, it's on Kayaba's servers in his super-secret lab.  From what we can tell, you can't just hook up the headset to a computer and then hack into it that way.  It's not that kind of technology.  It transforms brain commands into commands for your avatar in game, instead of your body.  No new users were admitted to SAO after the lockdown, and anyone who tried to remove a headset, that user was killed.  So, if you can't access SAO, how do you hack into it?

Kirito is in the game.  You can't get into SAO if you aren't using the headset, or physically at Kayaba's lab.

I also came across this comment thread under the Youtube video -

VERTEGREZ NOX
2 months ago
Funny cause IRL Hackers often crack game codes before the game's release.. So in my opinion that stuff you mentioned IS actually is possible (albeit highly unlikely) to encounter a player with this kind of skill level in an MMO game (especially one debuting bleeding edge technology)

Ps he is even shown soloing in an attempt at avoiding the awkwardness attached to having deep insight into the game's mechanics. I mean he started out teaching his friend until learning that the game was "now a matter life-or-death". He and another beta tester even predicted the negative response that other players might have, before then assuming the role of a villainous cheater. And blah blah blah but I just wanted to say it's a story/cartoon/tv show and im often surprised when "lack of realism" is the argument for why something "sucks".

I think what surprises me most about it is how much truth is often hidden in plain sight. By studying innovative technology, or rewatching a 10+year old film it's not all that difficult to see.. But that's my opinion. 

Cheers!

Thiades is awesome
2 months ago
Okay two things. First, hackers who crack game codes before the game's release, don't hack them from thin air. They have an early copy and they study that shit.

Second where is the lack of realism argument? Give me a timestamp. Because he's talking about suspension of disbelief, which is a different thing. People like fantasy. People like LotR, Harry Potter. You don't see them screaming "it's not realistic!!!" They know it's not realistic, but it's not so stupid that it's impossible to believe.
 
Nate 7
4 days ago
@Thiades is awesome actually a lot of hackers have been shown to being able to do that depending on the games code/security or the knowledge that the hacker has from previous games.

[stilgar]

9 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Kirito has been hacking and playing with computers and videogames his whole life.  This was repeatedly established in the show that he was a shut-in gamer tech junkie nerd.  There are also child prodigies in the world like the kid who has a nuclear lab in his garage.

...And then I disqualified all of those examples, because they had explanations for their power, talent, and skill.  I set them up to knock them down, to prove the fallacy of the Mary Sue concept and how the term is so overused and abused.  So you obviously didn't actually listen to or understand what I said.  The only ones I can think of that truly fit the bill are Alice from the Resident Evil movies and the main character of Prince of Tennis.

I do sound "off" to people, sure.  It's obvious I'm not a "normal" personality.  But that doesn't mean I'm wrong, and you don't have to be such a jerk about it.

Lol.

[Daos]

Also I'm still gonna need an episode number so I can see when Natsu actually shows awareness that Lucy likes him.

Seriously did anyone else here aside from Elfie watch FT and come to that conclusion that Ben did?

Edited December 3, 2018 by Daos

[naraku360]

On 12/2/2018 at 2:25 AM, ben0119 said:

But just having the devices isn't enough.  That's what is used to access SAO.  SAO isn't in the headset, it's on Kayaba's servers in his super-secret lab.  From what we can tell, you can't just hook up the headset to a computer and then hack into it that way.  It's not that kind of technology.  It transforms brain commands into commands for your avatar in game, instead of your body.  No new users were admitted to SAO after the lockdown, and anyone who tried to remove a headset, that user was killed.  So, if you can't access SAO, how do you hack into it?

Kirito is in the game.  You can't get into SAO if you aren't using the headset, or physically at Kayaba's lab.

I also came across this comment thread under the Youtube video -

VERTEGREZ NOX
2 months ago
Funny cause IRL Hackers often crack game codes before the game's release.. So in my opinion that stuff you mentioned IS actually is possible (albeit highly unlikely) to encounter a player with this kind of skill level in an MMO game (especially one debuting bleeding edge technology)

Ps he is even shown soloing in an attempt at avoiding the awkwardness attached to having deep insight into the game's mechanics. I mean he started out teaching his friend until learning that the game was "now a matter life-or-death". He and another beta tester even predicted the negative response that other players might have, before then assuming the role of a villainous cheater. And blah blah blah but I just wanted to say it's a story/cartoon/tv show and im often surprised when "lack of realism" is the argument for why something "sucks".

I think what surprises me most about it is how much truth is often hidden in plain sight. By studying innovative technology, or rewatching a 10+year old film it's not all that difficult to see.. But that's my opinion. 

Cheers!

Thiades is awesome
2 months ago
Okay two things. First, hackers who crack game codes before the game's release, don't hack them from thin air. They have an early copy and they study that shit.

Second where is the lack of realism argument? Give me a timestamp. Because he's talking about suspension of disbelief, which is a different thing. People like fantasy. People like LotR, Harry Potter. You don't see them screaming "it's not realistic!!!" They know it's not realistic, but it's not so stupid that it's impossible to believe.
 
Nate 7
4 days ago
@Thiades is awesome actually a lot of hackers have been shown to being able to do that depending on the games code/security or the knowledge that the hacker has from previous games.

Literally the only indication of what you're saying is that they prevent body movement. There's no real indication it's any more than a control scheme using brain waves. Regardless, the device requires software. None of what you're suggesting would be doable without software, abd software can and more than likely will get hacked. That is unless we're to default to calling it space magic.

Again, it isn't a matter of realism vs fantasy. It's a matter of constructing a consistent narrative that follows its own rules. Kirito is conveniently able to hack a mega computer because he built some consumer-grade PCs and took some programming classes. He's socially incompetent but nearly every woman, plus Klein, he interacts with will be seduced. He's a genius who can't see the fallacy of beta-testers being viewed as evil even after multiple years of being trapped.

If we get into the narrative choices, an example of poor execution would be the murder mystery arc with the player-killer in that one guild. First off, they use a process of elimination to pinpoint the culprit by discounting those who voted against keeping the treasure without so much as interviewing. That's problematic because it's more than plausible someone would vote against keeping as a false alibi.

Then they figure it out not by piecing what they know together, but rather by suddenly revealing at the last minute that a married couple share inventory so the wife's death would transfer the treasure to her husband, immediately revealing the culprit. That's literally all we needed to know from square one.

And lastly, the suspect list from the aforementioned [silly] process of elimination only leaves 5 suspects. But the final solution is of an internal group of 3 of those suspects banding together on a baseless assumption of each other's innocence to see if... the remaining... 2 people were responsible for the murder...?

Like, you picked up over half the suspects in an already small pool to test the remainder, but that's fucking stupid. Each innocent individual can rule themself out which leaves 4 possible people, so teaming up with 2 of them is a 50% chance of letting the culprit in... which they do. And it was an obvious probability nobody, save the dude who actually did it, should've been on board with.

And the inability to apply any logical cohesion to the narrative is a constant problem in SAO.

Edited December 4, 2018 by naraku360

[Daos]

Maybe this will help Ben. It's for the female version but they all basically apply to Kirito.

How to identify a Mary Sue

It’s not difficult to spot a Mary Sue in the literary wild. She is the woman every man wants and every woman wants to be. She’s feminine and classy but can ride a motorcycle or wield firearms and power tools like no one’s business.

Behold some of classic Mary Sue behavior:

• Beauty: Usually with exotic features
• Brave: Mary Sue is a brave, brave woman. She may have (slight) moments of fear, but her quick wit and awesome skills bring her the confidence she needs to prevail.
• Kind: Mary Sue is kind and compassionate. Many notable acts of kindness.
• Tragic backstory: Despite being raised with no parents, in object poverty, or with no limbs, Mary Sue beat the odds and overcame her disadvantages to become powerful or successful, while making very few (if any) enemies.
• Intelligence: Mary Sue is so smart everyone respects her opinion.
• Likable: No one hates or dislikes Mary Sue except misguided jealous people.
• Accepted: If Mary Sue is an outcast in the beginning, she becomes accepted by everyone by the end.
• Nothing to worry about: Mary Sue won’t starve and she won’t be homeless. Good things come to Mary Sue. Always.
• Triumph in the end: Mary Sue wins over evil. Every. Single. Time.
• Special abilities: While most Mary Sues can do anything, each Mary Sue has exceptional, almost super hero-like talent in at least one or two areas.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Daos

[PokeNirvash]

I was always under the impression that Mary Sues were exclusively fan fiction characters.

[Daos]

1 hour ago, PokeNirvash said:

I was always under the impression that Mary Sues were exclusively fan fiction characters.

No, that's just how the term got its origin. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Daos

[Blatch]

Hot damn. This is the most effort I've seen anyone use to refute Ben since Gman was last on the boards.

Don't worry, because I'm sure he'll blatantly gloss over all of this information and try to shift the target of the argument to something different. If that happens even once, let's get our asses out of here.

[naraku360]

3 minutes ago, Blatch said:

Hot damn. This is the most effort I've seen anyone use to refute Ben since Gman was last on the boards.

Don't worry, because I'm sure he'll blatantly gloss over all of this information and try to shift the target of the argument to something different. If that happens even once, let's get our asses out of here.

I'm just bored at the moment.

[CaptainStarwind]

Oh Jesus Christ.  I'm not even touching the Black Clover debate. Here, enjoy my contribution to the thread:

[PokeNirvash]

Oh Corey, will you ever not be a busta?

[Winter_Rain]

4 hours ago, naraku360 said:

He's socially incompetent but nearly every woman, plus Klein, he interacts with will be seduced. 

Klein was best waifu.  

Edited December 4, 2018 by Winter_Rain

[Top Gun]

3 hours ago, naraku360 said:

Literally the only indication of what you're saying is that they prevent body movement. There's no real indication it's any more than a control scheme using brain waves. Regardless, the device requires software. None of what you're suggesting would be doable without software, abd software can and more than likely will get hacked. That is unless we're to default to calling it space magic.

Again, it isn't a matter of realism vs fantasy. It's a matter of constructing a consistent narrative that follows its own rules. Kirito is conveniently able to hack a mega computer because he built some consumer-grade PCs and took some programming classes. He's socially incompetent but nearly every woman, plus Klein, he interacts with will be seduced. He's a genius who can't see the fallacy of beta-testers being viewed as evil even after multiple years of being trapped.

If we get into the narrative choices, an example of poor execution would be the murder mystery arc with the player-killer in that one guild. First off, they use a process of elimination to pinpoint the culprit by discounting those who voted against keeping the treasure without so much as interviewing. That's problematic because it's more than plausible someone would vote against keeping as a false alibi.

Then they figure it out not by piecing what they know together, but rather by suddenly revealing at the last minute that a married couple share inventory so the wife's death would transfer the treasure to her husband, immediately revealing the culprit. That's literally all we needed to know from square one.

And lastly, the suspect list from the aforementioned [silly] process of elimination only leaves 5 suspects. But the final solution is of an internal group of 3 of those suspects banding together on a baseless assumption of each other's innocence to see if... the remaining... 2 people were responsible for the murder...?

Like, you picked up over half the suspects in an already small pool to test the remainder, but that's fucking stupid. Each innocent individual can rule themself out which leaves 4 possible people, so teaming up with 2 of them is a 50% chance of letting the culprit in... which they do. And it was an obvious probability nobody, save the dude who actually did it, should've been on board with.

And the inability to apply any logical cohesion to the narrative is a constant problem in SAO.

SAO lost me right from the get-go by its premise alone:

A) The idea that a single person could both do all the core design and coding for a massive, sophisticated MMO AND singlehandedly engineer a sophisticated piece of custom hardware.  Hardware that throughout all of manufacturing and retail apparently escaped any sort of inspection or teardowns that would expose the unnecessary massively-powerful microwave emitter plopped up against the user's skull.  Because this is how game and hardware development works.

B) The idea that, over two goddamn years, no one managed to reverse-engineer the headset to figure out some way to safely deactivate it.  They couldn't fire off an EMP to fry it?  Find a critical circuit connection and do something to disable it via brute force?  Slip some protective shielding underneath the headset to mitigate the microwaves?  Nope, let's have our comatose patients continue to be held hostage because we're total dumbshits!

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  The climax of the SAO arc is one of the most spectacularly awful narrative cop-outs in anime history.

[Daos]

2 minutes ago, Top Gun said:

SAO lost me right from the get-go by its premise alone:

A) The idea that a single person could both do all the core design and coding for a massive, sophisticated MMO AND singlehandedly engineer a sophisticated piece of custom hardware.  Hardware that throughout all of manufacturing and retail apparently escaped any sort of inspection or teardowns that would expose the unnecessary massively-powerful microwave emitter plopped up against the user's skull.  Because this is how game and hardware development works.

B) The idea that, over two goddamn years, no one managed to reverse-engineer the headset to figure out some way to safely deactivate it.  They couldn't fire off an EMP to fry it?  Find a critical circuit connection and do something to disable it via brute force?  Slip some protective shielding underneath the headset to mitigate the microwaves?  Nope, let's have our comatose patients continue to be held hostage because we're total dumbshits!

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  The climax of the SAO arc is one of the most spectacularly awful narrative cop-outs in anime history.

I was willing to roll with that premise. Every other anime requires a bit of suspension of disbelief so I'd extend it the same courtesy. Guy reincarnated as a slime? Girls brought back as zombies to be idols?

But the payoff was..... unsatisfactory. "Hey so why'd you trap us all in this game and kill so many young kids?

"I forgot"

It's kind of hard to believe when this guy is basically the worlds smartest man since he was able to create a piece of tech that was somehow able to fool every bit of safety testing while the hardware and software were completely uncrackable. Not one person at his company was able to catch on. Oh and he also created a way to basically download your entire brain into the virtual world. He did all that with a fairly bad memory, impressive.

[EmpressAngel]

Didn't Kirito spend like a full episode seeking out a magic item that could be used to bring another player back to life as long as you used it within like, 30 seconds? And then instead of that actually coming into play when Asuna takes that killing blow for him, he just ignores the game's INSTA-DEAD programming to save her with the power of love? Am I remembering that right?

[Daos]

I think he gives the item away when he realizes it can't bring back his little friend that died because it only works within a short time.  But he doesn't need it because plot armor. The plot won't even allow Yui to die so from that point onward pretty much the only person that might actually die is Klein. They even gave Yuki a potential pass out of perma death by saying that her med system was designed by Kayaba so there's a chance she's out there in the virtual world somewhere. She'll show up and save the day at the last second in... Season .... 23 or something.

And that's a character whose entire arc was about her dying. it won't even commit to keeping her dead.

[stilgar]

50 minutes ago, Winter_Rain said:

Klein was best waifu.  

You mean Ballsdeep69. 

[naraku360]

1 hour ago, Top Gun said:

SAO lost me right from the get-go by its premise alone:

A) The idea that a single person could both do all the core design and coding for a massive, sophisticated MMO AND singlehandedly engineer a sophisticated piece of custom hardware.  Hardware that throughout all of manufacturing and retail apparently escaped any sort of inspection or teardowns that would expose the unnecessary massively-powerful microwave emitter plopped up against the user's skull.  Because this is how game and hardware development works.

B) The idea that, over two goddamn years, no one managed to reverse-engineer the headset to figure out some way to safely deactivate it.  They couldn't fire off an EMP to fry it?  Find a critical circuit connection and do something to disable it via brute force?  Slip some protective shielding underneath the headset to mitigate the microwaves?  Nope, let's have our comatose patients continue to be held hostage because we're total dumbshits!

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  The climax of the SAO arc is one of the most spectacularly awful narrative cop-outs in anime history.

I mean, really. Regardless of if the image is a mental image, and I do actually think Ben is right about that and have no idea why I thought that out of everything else was wrong, that image has to be created by the software in the device. The headset's software is hackable and any game on it is too. No way it'd last 2 years.

[PokeNirvash]

5 hours ago, EmpressAngel said:

Didn't Kirito spend like a full episode seeking out a magic item that could be used to bring another player back to life as long as you used it within like, 30 seconds? And then instead of that actually coming into play when Asuna takes that killing blow for him, he just ignores the game's INSTA-DEAD programming to save her with the power of love? Am I remembering that right?

It is my personal headcanon that the only reason Kirito survived getting killed in SAO was because the microwave unit inside his Nerve Gear was faulty. That boy has the Gary Stu's luck, he does.

[Daos]

Also remember that Asuna was going to kill herself if Kirito died because how can you possibly live without Kirito?

[PokeNirvash]

7 hours ago, Daos said:

Also remember that Asuna was going to kill herself if Kirito died because how can you possibly live without Kirito?

To be fair, if Kirito died and she lived, she'd have to come back to this.

I understand her reasoning completely.

[Winter_Rain]

On 12/4/2018 at 5:24 AM, PokeNirvash said:

It is my personal headcanon that the only reason Kirito survived getting killed in SAO was because the microwave unit inside his Nerve Gear was faulty. That boy has the Gary Stu's luck, he does.

That actually could have been an interesting plot if his seeming plot armor and Gary Stuness (like the dual wield) really was just dumb luck and his version was just buggy and glitched somehow.  Then he gets to find out he was never as good as he thought, it could have been anybody, and gets crippling survivors' guilt!  😈

But in general, my core problem with SAO was that it felt like a first draft --- potential is there, but the ideas needed a lot more refinement and some things should have been axed completely before it was allowed to be formally published.

Then again, the LN crowd doesn't exactly have discerning tastes, from what I've seen...

Edited December 9, 2018 by Winter_Rain

[Daos]

4 minutes ago, Winter_Rain said:

That actually could have been an interesting plot if his seeming plot armor and Gary Stuness (like the dual wield) really was just dumb luck and his version was just buggy and glitched somehow.  Then he gets to find out he was never as good as he thought, it could have been anybody, and gets crippling survivors' guilt!  😈

But in general, my core problem with SAO was that it felt like a first draft --- potential is there, but the ideas needed a lot more refinement and some things should have been axed completely before it was allowed to be formally published.

Then again, the LN crowd doesn't exactly have discerning tastes, from what I've seen...

And yet it became unstoppable and spawned a million isekai.

[Winter_Rain]

1 minute ago, Daos said:

And yet it became unstoppable and spawned a million isekai.

It's pretty much the light novel version of Twilight.  

Became puzzlingly popular despite being amateur and spawned a million emulators.  

And hell, one of the Twilight emulators (50 Shades, which started off as Twilight erotica fanfiction) became crazy popular in its own right.  

It's clear --- the next stage in isekai evolution involves BDSM.  Really badly written BDSM.

[Daos]

Nah gotta keep it PG 13. Remember they show this stuff on daytime TV in Japan. 

Despite Kirito having no personality, him and Asuna constantly win the best loved Male/Female leads in every poll taken in Japan.

[Winter_Rain]

I thought most anime was late night TV?  And there is always the infamous Chapter 16.5 for the people who want their SAO a little more spicy... 🤣

The "no personality" thing is exactly what makes Kirito so popular, and is exactly what propelled Twilight to success.  Because then the target audience can use the protagonist as a self-insert.

Only difference is that one is for girls and one is for boys.  

[Daos]

4 minutes ago, Winter_Rain said:

I thought most anime was late night TV?  And there is always the infamous Chapter 16.5 for the people who want their SAO a little more spicy... 🤣

The "no personality" thing is exactly what makes Kirito so popular, and is exactly what propelled Twilight to success.  Because then the target audience can use the protagonist as a self-insert.

Only difference is that one is for girls and one is for boys.  

Dragonball Super aired at 9am. It's anime paradise over there, it airs at all times all days of the week on major networks. 

It's also why they made it so no blood was allowed in Super. Can't let the 9am kids see blood!

Yeah imagine voting a self insert character as best character though. So weird.

[Top Gun]

The only series that air in the mornings/prime-time are mainstream family-friendly series like Doraemon, Sazae-San, and Detective Conan.  One Piece has locked down a coveted Sunday-morning timeslot for well over a decade now.  Pretty much every otaku-targeted series airs in a late-night slot.  In fact they essentially act as their own infomercials, since the production committees pay networks to air them in the hopes of earning money via merchandise and home video sales.  Streaming has started to change this a little bit, but the Japanese corporate world is notoriously averse to big paradigm shifts, so that remains the main model.

[ben0119]

On 12/3/2018 at 6:17 PM, Daos said:

Maybe this will help Ben. It's for the female version but they all basically apply to Kirito.

How to identify a Mary Sue

It’s not difficult to spot a Mary Sue in the literary wild. She is the woman every man wants and every woman wants to be. She’s feminine and classy but can ride a motorcycle or wield firearms and power tools like no one’s business.

Behold some of classic Mary Sue behavior:

• Beauty: Usually with exotic features
• Brave: Mary Sue is a brave, brave woman. She may have (slight) moments of fear, but her quick wit and awesome skills bring her the confidence she needs to prevail.
• Kind: Mary Sue is kind and compassionate. Many notable acts of kindness.
• Tragic backstory: Despite being raised with no parents, in object poverty, or with no limbs, Mary Sue beat the odds and overcame her disadvantages to become powerful or successful, while making very few (if any) enemies.
• Intelligence: Mary Sue is so smart everyone respects her opinion.
• Likable: No one hates or dislikes Mary Sue except misguided jealous people.
• Accepted: If Mary Sue is an outcast in the beginning, she becomes accepted by everyone by the end.
• Nothing to worry about: Mary Sue won’t starve and she won’t be homeless. Good things come to Mary Sue. Always.
• Triumph in the end: Mary Sue wins over evil. Every. Single. Time.
• Special abilities: While most Mary Sues can do anything, each Mary Sue has exceptional, almost super hero-like talent in at least one or two areas.

Is this from TV Tropes?  Because that makes me not want to take it seriously at all. 

And again with the thing that someone can't be good at more than one thing, or better at something than the viewer?  What sort of retarded shit is that?  This just comes off as an inferiority complex derived from people who feel insecure and jealous of people who are smarter and more talented than them, and egads, perish the thought, maybe even at more than one thing! - and projected onto fictional characters.  Like I said earlier, the real world is full of "Mary Sues."  I'm talented at many things and got better grades than other people, had better work ethic, I have high standards and I'm a perfectionist, and many times people just... do not take that well.  Lots of people are lazy and prefer to half-ass things, many are simply not as smart or as good at things.   Many people don't like it when someone else makes them look like shit at their job or class or whatever, especially if that other person didn't have to try as hard to do better.  So I know what it's like to be on the other side.  

I'm not really seeing anything too crazy here like I thought I would.  I don't see any of these really as "too perfect" characteristics.  I would call this more virtuous protagonist than anything.  Most people don't want to root for a character that's an asshole.

And here we have yet more evidence that you simply don't pay attention.  Trekspertise already debunked the notion that Michael Burnham is a Mary Sue, and crushed the concept of Mary Sues itself.  "No one is a Mary Sue."  I don't quite agree with that, but the term is certainly overused and abused to the point where it no longer has any meaning.  At this point, it's basically shorthand for "competent character I don't like." I  swear, I've come to absolutely hate hearing it, ever since people started accusing Kirito of being one, and now Rey, and Michael Burnham.  I feel stupider every time I see the term or have to repeat it myself to people who interjected it into the conversation.  People who fundamentally do not and never did understand Star Trek or Star Wars despite calling themselves "hardcore fans," and/or insecure man-children whose balls shrivel in the presence of strong, capable women.  In fact, Kirito is pretty much the only male character I've ever heard of being accused of being a Mary Sue.  I can't imagine why that would be.

Anyway, it would be nice if people would use actual arguments instead of just parroting buzzwords.

Edited December 9, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 12/2/2018 at 4:13 PM, Daos said:

Also I'm still gonna need an episode number so I can see when Natsu actually shows awareness that Lucy likes him.

Seriously did anyone else here aside from Elfie watch FT and come to that conclusion that Ben did?

As we've already established with Star Wars and your fundamental misunderstanding of it and its various films, you don't pay attention.  And if something isn't spoonfed to you, you don't get it.  You clearly have not paid attention to any of the interactions Natsu has had with Lucy, because they aren't like the ones he has with other characters.  There's also been multiple instances of Natsu being perverted and we know there would have been a relationship with Lisanna had she not died, so he certainly is not "asexual," at the very least.  I mean, there's so many clips I would have to dig up but it would take so much time and I don't want to run into spoilers, but there's been many moments since the beginning of the show.  What can I say, but... watch the show?

[ben0119]

On 12/3/2018 at 7:26 PM, Blatch said:

Hot damn. This is the most effort I've seen anyone use to refute Ben since Gman was last on the boards.

Don't worry, because I'm sure he'll blatantly gloss over all of this information and try to shift the target of the argument to something different. If that happens even once, let's get our asses out of here.

Do I have some new self-appointed shonen rivals?  Because they have some big shoes to fill.

Edited December 9, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 12/3/2018 at 11:30 PM, EmpressAngel said:

Didn't Kirito spend like a full episode seeking out a magic item that could be used to bring another player back to life as long as you used it within like, 30 seconds? And then instead of that actually coming into play when Asuna takes that killing blow for him, he just ignores the game's INSTA-DEAD programming to save her with the power of love? Am I remembering that right?

That item not coming into play later was kind of a missed opportunity, I'd agree there.  I think Kirito tossed it or gave it away after he realized it couldn't save Sachi since she had been dead way longer than 30 seconds.  And the game doesn't instantly kill someone, or that item wouldn't even work.  So, Kirito either beat Heathcliff within the time limit it takes for someone to be killed by their device, or she was spared by Kayaba as part of their reward for beating the game.

[ben0119]

On 12/4/2018 at 5:24 AM, PokeNirvash said:

It is my personal headcanon that the only reason Kirito survived getting killed in SAO was because the microwave unit inside his Nerve Gear was faulty. That boy has the Gary Stu's luck, he does.

If you mean when Kirito appeared to die in the battle against Heathcliff but seems to just will himself back to life, as I understand it, that was Kirito simply imagining himself losing and then saying "nuh-uh, that's not gonna' happen!"  This was simply poorly communicated in the anime.  If that guy, Grey Fox or whatever his name was, the resident SAO expert who read the light novels, migrated from the ASMB to UE with us, he could help with this.  That's who I learned that and a lot of other things about SAO from.

Apparently in the novels, the drug that Death Gun uses is actually succinylcholine, as I had suggested that maybe it was, from my years of watching Forensic Files.  For years, that was the perfect murder weapon, until a way to trace it was finally discovered.

https://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/2010/01/11/succinylcholine-is-it-the-perfect-murder-weapon/

Edited December 9, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 12/3/2018 at 5:59 PM, naraku360 said:

Literally the only indication of what you're saying is that they prevent body movement. There's no real indication it's any more than a control scheme using brain waves. Regardless, the device requires software. None of what you're suggesting would be doable without software, abd software can and more than likely will get hacked. That is unless we're to default to calling it space magic.

Again, it isn't a matter of realism vs fantasy. It's a matter of constructing a consistent narrative that follows its own rules. Kirito is conveniently able to hack a mega computer because he built some consumer-grade PCs and took some programming classes. He's socially incompetent but nearly every woman, plus Klein, he interacts with will be seduced. He's a genius who can't see the fallacy of beta-testers being viewed as evil even after multiple years of being trapped.

If we get into the narrative choices, an example of poor execution would be the murder mystery arc with the player-killer in that one guild. First off, they use a process of elimination to pinpoint the culprit by discounting those who voted against keeping the treasure without so much as interviewing. That's problematic because it's more than plausible someone would vote against keeping as a false alibi.

Then they figure it out not by piecing what they know together, but rather by suddenly revealing at the last minute that a married couple share inventory so the wife's death would transfer the treasure to her husband, immediately revealing the culprit. That's literally all we needed to know from square one.

And lastly, the suspect list from the aforementioned [silly] process of elimination only leaves 5 suspects. But the final solution is of an internal group of 3 of those suspects banding together on a baseless assumption of each other's innocence to see if... the remaining... 2 people were responsible for the murder...?

Like, you picked up over half the suspects in an already small pool to test the remainder, but that's fucking stupid. Each innocent individual can rule themself out which leaves 4 possible people, so teaming up with 2 of them is a 50% chance of letting the culprit in... which they do. And it was an obvious probability nobody, save the dude who actually did it, should've been on board with.

And the inability to apply any logical cohesion to the narrative is a constant problem in SAO.

It's not a VR headset in the strictest sense.  From what I recall, the players lie there with their eyes closed.  Any movement they make will be transferred to their avatar.  So, they're in that virtual world, their minds are, to be precise.  Did you not listen to what I just said?  You access the game with your brain.  You can't just hook up a computer and "hack" into the headset, that's not how it works.  You simply wouldn't be able to access it.  It's also likely that Kayaba has failsafes such as bricking the devices if anyone tries to tamper with them in addition to frying the players brains.  It's not outside of the realm of possibility.  But again, it's a simple matter of the access method, which uses the brain.  It's not like any other form of gaming device.

He copied and pasted some lines of code zooooohhhh-myyyyy-gaaaahhhh!  You... must not be very familiar with fiction, or with women.  Kirito is a brooding, self-loathing loner, a tortured hero with a tragic backstory.  And he wears black.  That's basically fangirl fap fodder right there.  Why else do you think characters like Angel from the Buffy franchise are popular, in-universe and out?  Some women are also find socially awkward guys attractive.  It also doesn't hurt that Kirito is helping people in a death game.  So yeah, it's not surprising that women would be attracted to him or guys might want to be bros with him.  I don't really get what you mean by Klein being "seduced" by him, though.  Maybe you find Kirito bizarre because you're so unlikable and repulse everyone.  God forbid should anyone become fast friends or anything!  What is this alien madness!  I don't quite understand what you mean with the beta-tester thing.  I explained this before, but people don't always tend to act logically and calmly in such situations, so early on, that's why beta testers were resented.  I mean, we can see this at action in the real world.  People resent others that are more capable than they are, even if it could help them out.   But, as time went on, the players organized into guilds and there was a dedicated group of people who were trying to beat the game, while others who weren't cut out for it just tried to live their lives and make the best of it in SAO.  There were multiple episodes establishing this.

Dude I barely remember the murder mystery episodes.  Believe it or not, I still haven't re-watched the first season.  I intended to watch in Japanese but never got around to it.  So many shows and games and hobbies and so little time I barely have time to watch stuff once these days much less more than once!  And the unthinkable has occurred because I'm now behind on Alicization!  And still need to catch up with Fairy Tail!  Instead I'm here arguing with you Yahoos! 

ALL WORK AND NO SAO AND FAIRY TAIL MAKE BENNY A VERY DULL BOY.  ALL WORK AND NO SAO AND FAIRY TAIL MAKE BENNY A VERY DULL BOY.  ALL WORK AND NO SAO AND FAIRY TAIL MAKE BENNY A VERY DULL BOY.  

Anyway, don't you think you have bigger fish to fry than the murder mystery mini-arc?

I will agree with you that SAO Aincrad does have some narrative, pacing, and character development issues.  We have all these time skips that just jump over developments in the plots and characters.  It's not perfect by any means.  But, Reki recognized this which is why he remade it with Progressive, and even considers that the canon version over the original.  If I don't get around to reading the books before the inevitable anime adaption of it, we can see how it might have improved and have these arguments all over again in a few years.

But, you should check out Alicization.  It's largely devoid of bad SAO-isms and seems to have learned from the mistakes of the past.  And I mean you could see it as SAO progressively improved as it went on (Fairy Dance aside).  Reki has definitely racked up some exp and become a better writer.

[ben0119]

5 hours ago, Daos said:

Nah gotta keep it PG 13. Remember they show this stuff on daytime TV in Japan. 

Despite Kirito having no personality, him and Asuna constantly win the best loved Male/Female leads in every poll taken in Japan.

How does he have no personality again? 

Well, they are a cute couple.  I don't know about BEST, but...

[ben0119]

5 hours ago, Winter_Rain said:

That actually could have been an interesting plot if his seeming plot armor and Gary Stuness (like the dual wield) really was just dumb luck and his version was just buggy and glitched somehow.  Then he gets to find out he was never as good as he thought, it could have been anybody, and gets crippling survivors' guilt!  😈

But in general, my core problem with SAO was that it felt like a first draft --- potential is there, but the ideas needed a lot more refinement and some things should have been axed completely before it was allowed to be formally published.

Then again, the LN crowd doesn't exactly have discerning tastes, from what I've seen...

The Dual Wield was for the fastest reflexes.  There other special abilities that could be unlocked by others were they to meet the conditions for them.  And Heathcliff gave himself that shield power whatever it was.  Well Kirito already had that guilt arc over what happened with Sachi's guild.

It WAS a first draft, if even that.  Reki wrote it for a contest, but went over the word limit, so the threw it up on his website.  People found it and gained a following, so he wrote sequel web novels to it.  Then the light novel publisher saw this and had him adapt it to light novels, and the anime people liked the light novels, so they made the anime, etc.  Reki wasn't expecting it to turn into this big thing.  He even realizes that the Aincrad Arc is flawed, which is why he remade it and expanded it with Progressive.  The light novels already had apparently already fixed and changed some things with the web novels, and are the higher canon over the original versions of the stories.  Basically the whole thing just took off like crazy, when it was really just something written for fun by an MMO fan.  It just snowballed.

But, if you were him, would you say?  "Oh, no.  My story, it's not ready yet.  Don't make me turn it into light novels and an anime and become rich!"

[ben0119]

On 12/5/2018 at 5:38 AM, PokeNirvash said:

To be fair, if Kirito died and she lived, she'd have to come back to this.

I understand her reasoning completely.

I actually came across a fanart someone drew of Sugo raping Asuna's comatose body.  WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE?!

[naraku360]

25 minutes ago, ben0119 said:

It's not a VR headset in the strictest sense.  From what I recall, the players lie there with their eyes closed.  Any movement they make will be transferred to their avatar.  So, they're in that virtual world, their minds are, to be precise.  Did you not listen to what I just said?  You access the game with your brain.  You can't just hook up a computer and "hack" into the headset, that's not how it works.  You simply wouldn't be able to access it.  It's also likely that Kayaba has failsafes such as bricking the devices if anyone tries to tamper with them in addition to frying the players brains.  It's not outside of the realm of possibility.  But again, it's a simple matter of the access method, which uses the brain.  It's not like any other form of gaming device.

He copied and pasted some lines of code zooooohhhh-myyyyy-gaaaahhhh!  You... must not be very familiar with fiction, or with women.  Kirito is a brooding, self-loathing loner, a tortured hero with a tragic backstory.  And he wears black.  That's basically fangirl fap fodder right there.  Why else do you think characters like Angel from the Buffy franchise are popular, in-universe and out?  Some women are also find socially awkward guys attractive.  It also doesn't hurt that Kirito is helping people in a death game.  So yeah, it's not surprising that women would be attracted to him or guys might want to be bros with him.  I don't really get what you mean by Klein being "seduced" by him, though.  Maybe you find Kirito bizarre because you're so unlikable and repulse everyone.  God forbid should anyone become fast friends or anything!  What is this alien madness!  I don't quite understand what you mean with the beta-tester thing.  I explained this before, but people don't always tend to act logically and calmly in such situations, so early on, that's why beta testers were resented.  I mean, we can see this at action in the real world.  People resent others that are more capable than they are, even if it could help them out.   But, as time went on, the players organized into guilds and there was a dedicated group of people who were trying to beat the game, while others who weren't cut out for it just tried to live their lives and make the best of it in SAO.  There were multiple episodes establishing this.

Dude I barely remember the murder mystery episodes.  Believe it or not, I still haven't re-watched the first season.  I intended to watch in Japanese but never got around to it.  So many shows and games and hobbies and so little time I barely have time to watch stuff once these days much less more than once!  And the unthinkable has occurred because I'm now behind on Alicization!  And still need to catch up with Fairy Tail!  Instead I'm here arguing with you Yahoos! 

ALL WORK AND NO SAO AND FAIRY TAIL MAKE BENNY A VERY DULL BOY.  ALL WORK AND NO SAO AND FAIRY TAIL MAKE BENNY A VERY DULL BOY.  ALL WORK AND NO SAO AND FAIRY TAIL MAKE BENNY A VERY DULL BOY.  

Anyway, don't you think you have bigger fish to fry than the murder mystery mini-arc?

I will agree with you that SAO Aincrad does have some narrative, pacing, and character development issues.  We have all these time skips that just jump over developments in the plots and characters.  It's not perfect by any means.  But, Reki recognized this which is why he remade it with Progressive, and even considers that the canon version over the original.  If I don't get around to reading the books before the inevitable anime adaption of it, we can see how it might have improved and have these arguments all over again in a few years.

But, you should check out Alicization.  It's largely devoid of bad SAO-isms and seems to have learned from the mistakes of the past.  And I mean you could see it as SAO progressively improved as it went on (Fairy Dance aside).  Reki has definitely racked up some exp and become a better writer.

The point wasn't that the mini-arc is the greatest offender. It's that the issues of logic and continuity are a constant throughline. Kirito and Asuna are super smart but the detail of shared treasure doesn't come up until the last minute. Kirito has an omega regen ability that's activated one time for one scene with no implication of existing, then there's no reference to it ever again because it was only there to seem cool. Somehow a video game console capable of melting brains is on the market. Somehow a magic item can be used to revive someone up to 30 seconds after having their brain fried.

I mean, I couldn't really see it improving. Mostly because I didn't finish the first arc because of the whole character development done off screen thing and how boring it was most of the time. The continuations don't sound very good though.

[ben0119]

13 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

The point wasn't that the mini-arc is the greatest offender. It's that the issues of logic and continuity are a constant throughline. Kirito and Asuna are super smart but the detail of shared treasure doesn't come up until the last minute. Kirito has an omega regen ability that's activated one time for one scene with no implication of existing, then there's no reference to it ever again because it was only there to seem cool. Somehow a video game console capable of melting brains is on the market. Somehow a magic item can be used to revive someone up to 30 seconds after having their brain fried.

I mean, I couldn't really see it improving. Mostly because I didn't finish the first arc because of the whole character development done off screen thing and how boring it was most of the time. The continuations don't sound very good though.

Continuity issues for sure.  Could do without those time skips.  I'd say maybe the regen ability couldn't keep up with the damage he took later on?  Eeehh?  Umm, Volkswagen cheated on emissions tests, a Japanese company got away with selling faulty air bags, companies got away with literally knowingly poisoning and killing people for years, Dupont with Teflon, asbestos manufacturers, cigarette companies, oil companies have gotten away with knowingly polluting the planet to a dangerous state (one of them even showed some semblance of conscious by abandoning some oil exploration after they learned what damage it would cause,) there was that shitty game system that was all in red that made your vision cloudy and made you dizzy, so yeah, imagine that, a game company got away with making a dangerous device in conservative Japan that is overly friendly and accommodating to businesses, and the law in general is woefully behind technology all the time.  Doesn't help that most of the politicians are old and ignorant and don't understand it.  And you know how stuff doesn't get done until after the fact, which is how it was in SAO in making sure future devices couldn't do this and had safety features etc.  Uhh, that's not how it works.  It was explained that someone's brain isn't instantly fried and that item was used to stop the signal and save them before the device killed them.  Hence having to use it in 30 seconds.

Yeah I don't blame you for not liking that as I didn't either.  The other arcs/seasons are better though (except for Fairy Dance,) and I'm very interested in the Progressive version of Aincrad.  But, do what you want.  If you don't want to watch any more SAO, you should watch that Ted Danson Gulliver's Travels.  It's a great movie!

Edited December 9, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 12/3/2018 at 10:59 PM, Top Gun said:

SAO lost me right from the get-go by its premise alone:

A) The idea that a single person could both do all the core design and coding for a massive, sophisticated MMO AND singlehandedly engineer a sophisticated piece of custom hardware.  Hardware that throughout all of manufacturing and retail apparently escaped any sort of inspection or teardowns that would expose the unnecessary massively-powerful microwave emitter plopped up against the user's skull.  Because this is how game and hardware development works.

B) The idea that, over two goddamn years, no one managed to reverse-engineer the headset to figure out some way to safely deactivate it.  They couldn't fire off an EMP to fry it?  Find a critical circuit connection and do something to disable it via brute force?  Slip some protective shielding underneath the headset to mitigate the microwaves?  Nope, let's have our comatose patients continue to be held hostage because we're total dumbshits!

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  The climax of the SAO arc is one of the most spectacularly awful narrative cop-outs in anime history.

A) Kayaba had a development team.  So not sure what you are babbling on about here.  But, a visionary genius is still required in many cases.  Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, Shigeru Miyamoto,  Yu Suzuki, etc... And some of these companies started out of garages and with small teams.

Umm, Volkswagen cheated on emissions tests, a Japanese company got away with selling faulty air bags, companies got away with literally knowingly poisoning and killing people for years, Dupont with Teflon, asbestos manufacturers, cigarette companies, oil companies have gotten away with knowingly polluting the planet to a dangerous state (one of them even showed some semblance of conscious by abandoning some oil exploration after they learned what damage it would cause,) there was that shitty game system that was all in red that made your vision cloudy and made you dizzy, so yeah, imagine that, a game company got away with making a dangerous device in conservative Japan that is overly friendly and accommodating to businesses, and the law in general is woefully behind technology all the time.  Doesn't help that most of the politicians are old and ignorant and don't understand it.  And you know how stuff doesn't get done until after the fact, which is how it was in SAO in making sure future devices couldn't do this and had safety features etc.

B) I'm sure if they could have they would have.  Kayaba said that if anyone attempted to remove the headsets, they would fry the user.  And he made good on this promise.  Everything you suggested is far more intrusive and likely to set off the device as much or more than simply trying to remove the headset.  And once the user is dead, there's no way to access SAO using that device anyway, since no new users were admitted into SAO.  That was like... the whole point.  No one gets in, no one gets out.  So, I don't think there's any amount of tampering you could do when it's on someone's head because it could kill them, and you can't use it afterwards because it's useless, either because the connection to SAO is severed and/or the device becomes bricked, or whatever.  

Regarding Kayaba -

Spoiler

I'm a few episodes behind, but at least it seems like Kayaba is finally going to be elaborated upon and further explained in Alicization.

 

[ben0119]

On 12/4/2018 at 12:18 AM, naraku360 said:

I mean, really. Regardless of if the image is a mental image, and I do actually think Ben is right about that and have no idea why I thought that out of everything else was wrong, that image has to be created by the software in the device. The headset's software is hackable and any game on it is too. No way it'd last 2 years.

But, you access it with your brain.  You can't just "hook it up a PC into it and hack into it."  That's not how it works.  You might as well ask why don't you hack a computer with a steam engine.  It's incompatible tech that can't interact that way.  And once the user is dead, that headset is likely useless, connection severed from SAO, or it's bricked, or both, or whatever.  And if it isn't, and someone could potentially hack their way into SAO, Kayaba could have it set up so the headset fries anyone who attempts to, or they get trapped in the game themselves.  And there's your valuable hacker dead or trapped.  They'd also have to be willing to potentially sacrifice themselves as well.  So, the only way to get into SAO is to be at Kayaba's labs and his servers, or use the headset.  And we know no new users were admitted into SAO.  SAO was a closed system not connected to the rest of the internet, at least after the lockdown.  And again, SAO is on those servers, the headset is just an access device, and I suppose it creates the image for the user, but it's being transmitted, at least, that's my understanding.  I don't see that giant world being able to fit just inside the game system, but I could be wrong.  Either way, what you say just simply isn't doable because it's not like any computer or game technology as we understand it.

Edited December 9, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 12/3/2018 at 11:38 PM, Daos said:

I think he gives the item away when he realizes it can't bring back his little friend that died because it only works within a short time.  But he doesn't need it because plot armor. The plot won't even allow Yui to die so from that point onward pretty much the only person that might actually die is Klein. They even gave Yuki a potential pass out of perma death by saying that her med system was designed by Kayaba so there's a chance she's out there in the virtual world somewhere. She'll show up and save the day at the last second in... Season .... 23 or something.

And that's a character whose entire arc was about her dying. it won't even commit to keeping her dead.

What the flying horse fuck are you basing that on?  Kayaba (and someone else) developed the Medicuboid (still think that's a dumb name.)  Kayaba did create an AI copy of himself, but the real Kayaba is still dead.  Either way, that doesn't imply there's an AI copy of Yuuki just because she used a device he made.  What the fuck logic is that?

[ben0119]

On 12/3/2018 at 10:52 PM, Winter_Rain said:

Klein was best waifu.  

Reki said he was going to write some stories about Klein and Agil after he found out how popular they were in America.  I wonder if those stories are still coming.  Not sure how prominent they will be in Alicization.  There's still a lot of episodes left, I guess.

[Daos]

3 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Is this from TV Tropes?  Because that makes me not want to take it seriously at all. 

And again with the thing that someone can't be good at more than one thing, or better at something than the viewer?  What sort of retarded shit is that?  This just comes off as an inferiority complex derived from people who feel insecure and jealous of people who are smarter and more talented than them, and egads, perish the thought, maybe even at more than one thing! - and projected onto fictional characters.  Like I said earlier, the real world is full of "Mary Sues."  I'm talented at many things and got better grades than other people, had better work ethic, I have high standards and I'm a perfectionist, and many times people just... do not take that well.  Lots of people are lazy and prefer to half-ass things, many are simply not as smart or as good at things.   Many people don't like it when someone else makes them look like shit at their job or class or whatever, especially if that other person didn't have to try as hard to do better.  So I know what it's like to be on the other side.  

I'm not really seeing anything too crazy here like I thought I would.  I don't see any of these really as "too perfect" characteristics.  I would call this more virtuous protagonist than anything.  Most people don't want to root for a character that's an asshole.

And here we have yet more evidence that you simply don't pay attention.  Trekspertise already debunked the notion that Michael Burnham is a Mary Sue, and crushed the concept of Mary Sues itself.  "No one is a Mary Sue."  I don't quite agree with that, but the term is certainly overused and abused to the point where it no longer has any meaning.  At this point, it's basically shorthand for "competent character I don't like." I  swear, I've come to absolutely hate hearing it, ever since people started accusing Kirito of being one, and now Rey, and Michael Burnham.  I feel stupider every time I see the term or have to repeat it myself to people who interjected it into the conversation.  People who fundamentally do not and never did understand Star Trek or Star Wars despite calling themselves "hardcore fans," and/or insecure man-children whose balls shrivel in the presence of strong, capable women.  In fact, Kirito is pretty much the only male character I've ever heard of being accused of being a Mary Sue.  I can't imagine why that would be.

Anyway, it would be nice if people would use actual arguments instead of just parroting buzzwords.

Ben this is why people are constantly calling you crazy and far worse. You sound absolutely off your rocker.

But hey I mean.. if Trekspertise (Never heard of it/him) says Michael Burnham (never heard of him) isn't a Mary Sue then I guess Mary Sues don't exist. Case closed. I'll inform the literary world. If you can't see why this train of thought doesn't make sense, you've gotta get a new prescription soon.

The main impasse we're at here is that due to your various ailments you aren't able to tell realistic abilities from unrealistic abilities. In Kirito's case an assortment of incredibly unrealistic ones. So any character possessing a series of outrageously over the top abilities just comes off to you as "He's just competent." To people not afflicted with these various ailments, this viewpoint comes off as either stupid or completely insane. It's not your fault, but that's where you're at.

And no, it's on TV tropes but that list is ... anywhere and everywhere. Those are the traits that define a Mary Sue. It's almost like you're trying to argue the definition of the word WET. 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mary_sue

https://www.dictionary.com/e/fictional-characters/mary-sue/

https://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Making-a-Mary-Sue

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CommonMarySueTraits

https://www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/spot-kill-mary-sue-characters/#

[Daos]

4 hours ago, ben0119 said:

As we've already established with Star Wars and your fundamental misunderstanding of it and its various films, you don't pay attention.  And if something isn't spoonfed to you, you don't get it.  You clearly have not paid attention to any of the interactions Natsu has had with Lucy, because they aren't like the ones he has with other characters.  There's also been multiple instances of Natsu being perverted and we know there would have been a relationship with Lisanna had she not died, so he certainly is not "asexual," at the very least.  I mean, there's so many clips I would have to dig up but it would take so much time and I don't want to run into spoilers, but there's been many moments since the beginning of the show.  What can I say, but... watch the show?

Nope, I've seen zero indication that Natsu is anything but the typical unaware Shonen protagonist. He seems exactly as clueless as he was in episode 1. Elfie doesn't see anything like this either. If anyone else here has seen FT and wants to chime in feel free.

He was like... 8 when he hung out with Lisanna. No idea why you keep going back to that.

This seems like another case of you seeing things that aren't there, and not seeing things that are there. This seems to happen a lot.

[ben0119]

2 minutes ago, Daos said:

Ben this is why people are constantly calling you crazy and far worse. You sound absolutely off your rocker.

But hey I mean.. if Trekspertise (Never heard of it/him) says Michael Burnham (never heard of him) isn't a Mary Sue then I guess Mary Sues don't exist. Case closed. I'll inform the literary world. If you can't see why this train of thought doesn't make sense, you've gotta get a new prescription soon.

The main impasse we're at here is that due to your various ailments you aren't able to tell realistic abilities from unrealistic abilities. In Kirito's case an assortment of incredibly unrealistic ones. So any character possessing a series of outrageously over the top abilities just comes off to you as "He's just competent." To people not afflicted with these various ailments, this viewpoint comes off as either stupid or completely insane. It's not your fault, but that's where you're at.

And no, it's on TV tropes but that list is ... anywhere and everywhere. Those are the traits that define a Mary Sue. It's almost like you're trying to argue the definition of the word WET. 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mary_sue

https://www.dictionary.com/e/fictional-characters/mary-sue/

https://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Making-a-Mary-Sue

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CommonMarySueTraits

https://www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/spot-kill-mary-sue-characters/#

Doesn't matter if you heard of them.  It seems like you didn't even watch the video so why am I bothering here?  I said that Trekspertise not only debunks Burnham as a Mary Sue but crushes the very concept of a Mary Sue.  He even says "no one is."  I wouldn't quite go that far, but I agree with quite a lot of what he said and I do feel it is an overused and abused term that has almost no meaning.  Michael Burnham is woman, and the lead of Star Trek: Discovery, who was accused of being a Mary Sue by insecure manchildren and/or people who don't understand Star Trek. 

There is background and explanation to everything Kirito does, and it doesn't go beyond extremely talented people in the real world, even people I personally know.

Well, you're coming off ignorant, very much so.  I have bi-polar disorder.

Bipolar disorder

A disorder associated with episodes of mood swings ranging from depressive lows to manic highs.
Learn more at https://g.co/kgs/hKYyv4

That relates to mood and not perception, and is being treated with medication.  Though I do need it adjusted, as I had a uncontrolled manic episode several weeks back and will be seeing a psychiatrist soon for that, it again, relates to mood and energy levels. 

Unfortunately, there is no pill I can take for Asperger's, sorry.  I may not even have OCD as I didn't see it on my patient paperwork.  I'll ask about it next time.

http://www.autism-society.org/what-is/aspergers-syndrome/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/aspergers-syndrome

People with Asperger's have difficulty reading social cues and socializing, picking up on humor, sarcasm, though I have tried to improve on this and think I have over the years, I'll never be "normal."  They get very engrossed in certain subjects and hobbies etc.  By definition, someone with Asperger's must have average or above average intelligence.  I'll remind you my IQ is 138.  120 is considered a genius.

I've seen far more extreme traits listed than the ones given in that list.

So no, it's not that I "don't get" what a Mary Sue is because of "my ailments."  I simply don't agree that Kirito is one and I believe the term is overused and abused and that there are far fewer Mary Sues than all that are actually called out.  You're the only one here who thinks Rey is, by the way.  So you're the odd duck out there.

[Daos]

2 hours ago, ben0119 said:

What the flying horse fuck are you basing that on?  Kayaba (and someone else) developed the Medicuboid (still think that's a dumb name.)  Kayaba did create an AI copy of himself, but the real Kayaba is still dead.  Either way, that doesn't imply there's an AI copy of Yuuki just because she used a device he made.  What the fuck logic is that?

How is the real Kayaba dead if he uploaded a full copy of his brain into the virtual world? The real Kayaba would be the one in the virtual world. The body he left behind would just be a husk.

Why do you think they made the entire final 2 minutes of the final episode of S2 be about who designed Yuki's equipment? OH GEE NO REASON JUST KILLIN SOME TIME.

Golly if only there was some way Yuki could come back to life in the virtual world.  If only she had died while being connected to similar equipment as that one guy who literally just transferred his entire brain to the virtual world. Oh wait, she was! Good news.

It's calling keeping your options open. If people didn't like the character you don't have to bring them back. But if people do like the character, then you have an easy way to make it happen.

 

[Daos]

Ben I don't watch that show, am not familiar with the character, and have never heard of the site/person who is supposedly disproving the existence of Mary Sues. Why would I watch the video? You just linked a video about a random character from a random show with a random guy debunking it. It would be meaningless for me to watch it. It would be like me talking about Donnie Darko if you've never seen Donnie Darko.

What is he going to do, remove the term from the dictionary? 

[ben0119]

24 minutes ago, Daos said:

Nope, I've seen zero indication that Natsu is anything but the typical unaware Shonen protagonist. He seems exactly as clueless as he was in episode 1. Elfie doesn't see anything like this either. If anyone else here has seen FT and wants to chime in feel free.

He was like... 8 when he hung out with Lisanna. No idea why you keep going back to that.

This seems like another case of you seeing things that aren't there, and not seeing things that are there. This seems to happen a lot.

There's a prominent moment in one of the OPs for Grand Magic Games, it happens in the arc, plenty of other moments in that arc too, and in basically all the arcs the are Natsu x Lucy moments, even the early ones.  Again, do you see him behaving exactly like that with any other characters?

Umm Lisanna did not die when they were 8 and he had been around her that whole time.

It's possible I am reading into things that aren't there, but I doubt it.  In any case, if Natsu really is like that, then that just means Mashima decided to be more generic and follow the crowd with Fairy Tail, because Haru certainly was not like that.  Rave Master was and still is better than Fairy Tail, anyway.  It's a shame the whole thing didn't get animated. 

Fairy Tail is also a show that got accused of being generic and copying other shows.  I don't wholly agree with that assessment, but if you do, you like it, and not Black Clover?  And you want to talk about art and animation not being very strong??  Let's talk about the first Fairy Tail anime, lol.

[ben0119]

10 minutes ago, Daos said:

How is the real Kayaba dead if he uploaded a full copy of his brain into the virtual world? The real Kayaba would be the one in the virtual world. The body he left behind would just be a husk.

Why do you think they made the entire final 2 minutes of the final episode of S2 be about who designed Yuki's equipment? OH GEE NO REASON JUST KILLIN SOME TIME.

Golly if only there was some way Yuki could come back to life in the virtual world.  If only she had died while being connected to similar equipment as that one guy who literally just transferred his entire brain to the virtual world. Oh wait, she was! Good news.

It's calling keeping your options open. If people didn't like the character you don't have to bring them back. But if people do like the character, then you have an easy way to make it happen.

That's not the way I see it.  The real Kayaba is dead.  It's not the placed his "ghost" on the net like in Ghost in the Shell.  It's not the actual him.  That's just an AI copy.  A fake.  The real one is dead.  Would you say a clone that was implanted with all your is memories you?  No, it's a copy and always will be.  There's only one you.  Yes, there is A Kayaba out there, an AI one, A COPY, but not THE Kayaba.

Umm that was building up to us learning more about Kayaba and the people who worked with him later on. 

Spoiler

This is paying off now in Alicization.

It had nothing to do with bringing back Yuuki, and I've seen no one else, not when it aired, or up until now, make this assertion.  Mostly people were complaining about Reki trying to redeem Japanese Bin Laden, and I agree with them there.