a mini-essay on how gay Naruto is **spoilers**

[mochi]

15 hours ago, Daos said:

That's all? That's pretty tame.

Roshi saying her breasts were "baby soft" is a little creepy

[Daos]

Sure, but now we're censoring just because of creepyness?

[mochi]

1 hour ago, Daos said:

Sure, but now we're censoring just because of creepyness?

I mean a couple weeks ago Roshi had steam come out of his nose instead of Blood

apparently Toei was under the idea they'd be airing this show on a Kid's network overseas and pre-censored themselves

which is probably also why Vegeta isn't allowed to kill anyone....or fight anyone period

[Blatch]

3 hours ago, mochi said:

which is probably also why Vegeta isn't allowed to kill anyone....or fight anyone period

That's not the reason.

You know, I actually intentionally abstained from posting here because I didn't want the discussion to spiral out of control and start a fight. At least you've gone a while without up and doing it now, but you still could. 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Blatch

[Top Gun]

22 hours ago, mochi said:

I mean a couple weeks ago Roshi had steam come out of his nose instead of Blood

apparently Toei was under the idea they'd be airing this show on a Kid's network overseas and pre-censored themselves

which is probably also why Vegeta isn't allowed to kill anyone....or fight anyone period

No, Vegeta isn't allowed to fight anyone because he's always been a shitty character overhyped by fanboys.

[PokeNirvash]

As they say, there's always someone better, and that someone is always Goku.

[except when it's broly]

[Daos]

51 minutes ago, Top Gun said:

No, Vegeta isn't allowed to fight anyone because he's always been a shitty character overhyped by fanboys.

Oh man now you've done it cowboy.

[Top Gun]

No seriously, I've never actually forced myself through DBZ before this Toonami run, and I didn't realize how terrible he was.  Like, how many times has he actively sabotaged all of existence?  3?  4?

[Daos]

5 hours ago, Top Gun said:

No seriously, I've never actually forced myself through DBZ before this Toonami run, and I didn't realize how terrible he was.  Like, how many times has he actively sabotaged all of existence?  3?  4?

Yes but you just insulted Mochi's god. You will never hear the end of it.

Uhhhh twice at least? Not killing Semi Perfect Cell and then getting Majin Powers so he can fight Goku which awakened Buu.

Don't get me wrong I like the character... but he committed genocide against multiple planets and even ate their dead bodies. He NEVER really has to pay the price for the millions or perhaps billions of lives he took. 

He also tried to blow up the earth just because he was mad that Goku was giving him a hard time in their fight.

He doesn't even consider using the Dragonballs to bring back all the planets he wiped out.

Toriyama is just a terrible writer, that's all their is to it. If you're gonna enjoy DB just don't think about anything too much. Don't think about how a guy who killed 100x more people than Hitler ended up as one of the heroes.

[mochi]

5 hours ago, Daos said:

Yes but you just insulted Mochi's god. You will never hear the end of it.

Uhhhh twice at least? Not killing Semi Perfect Cell and then getting Majin Powers so he can fight Goku which awakened Buu.

Don't get me wrong I like the character... but he committed genocide against multiple planets and even ate their dead bodies. He NEVER really has to pay the price for the millions or perhaps billions of lives he took. 

He also tried to blow up the earth just because he was mad that Goku was giving him a hard time in their fight.

He doesn't even consider using the Dragonballs to bring back all the planets he wiped out.

Toriyama is just a terrible writer, that's all their is to it. If you're gonna enjoy DB just don't think about anything too much. Don't think about how a guy who killed 100x more people than Hitler ended up as one of the heroes.

about that

Spoiler

(his wish in super's final arc basically amounts to about the equivalent of that....he doesn't get to make it though....but 17 makes it for him)

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by mochi

[PokeNirvash]

For god's sake man, highlight that comment so people can actually read it. Like this.

[ben0119]

On 7/9/2018 at 12:58 PM, mochi said:

I actually find the Dragonball type humor that Super tries to include to be a serious problem

the issue is that GT did the same thing, and was horrible....so why did Toei think doing the exact same thing a second time would be better?

DBZ and DB had radically different styles, DB leaned more towards Comedy while DBZ leaned more towards action, and frankly trying to have both at once does not work, and that should've been made obvious by GT's widely panned nature

I always thought that was a good thing about GT, so I don't mind it here.  People I've talked to have enjoyed the comedy.  Seems like most people in the threads do too.

[ben0119]

Yeah I think with #metoo, Roshi is going to have be toned down.

[ben0119]

On 7/13/2018 at 4:29 AM, Daos said:

Yes but you just insulted Mochi's god. You will never hear the end of it.

Uhhhh twice at least? Not killing Semi Perfect Cell and then getting Majin Powers so he can fight Goku which awakened Buu.

Don't get me wrong I like the character... but he committed genocide against multiple planets and even ate their dead bodies. He NEVER really has to pay the price for the millions or perhaps billions of lives he took. 

He also tried to blow up the earth just because he was mad that Goku was giving him a hard time in their fight.

He doesn't even consider using the Dragonballs to bring back all the planets he wiped out.

Toriyama is just a terrible writer, that's all their is to it. If you're gonna enjoy DB just don't think about anything too much. Don't think about how a guy who killed 100x more people than Hitler ended up as one of the heroes.

Uhh... Vegeta was "just following orders?"  That's how Toriyama tries to white-wash it.

Except he totally enjoyed slaughtering people.

And remember that time he trololo'd because that Namekian village he killed didn't come back because the wish was to revive those killed by Frieza and his men?

I thought the Dragon Balls could only bring back people who died within the last year.  At least at first anyway.

Edited July 15, 2018 by ben0119

[mochi]

13 hours ago, ben0119 said:

I always thought that was a good thing about GT, so I don't mind it here.  People I've talked to have enjoyed the comedy.  Seems like most people in the threads do too.

admittedly I never had THAT much of an issue with GT's comedy

the questionable choices IMO came from them de-aging and de-powering Goku then somehow having Vegeta still be too weak to step in and take over after Goku had been regressed to his 12 year old state

if Goku were regressed back to his 12 year old power level vegeta would by default be the strongest person on the earth, and logicially would usurp Goku as the protagonist....but for some reason a 12 year old Goku was still stronger than a fully grown Vegeta

that, and If I think they aren't using Vegeta to his full potential in Super they REALLY weren't using him in GT since all he did in GT was get insulted by Bulla

 

Spoiler

(IMO when Bulla is introduced in Super is when i feel like they start actually making Vegeta look good, namely the fact that he's actively making an effort to support his wife and baby and also actually finally gets to kick some ass in a real high stakes tournanemt, as well as (trying to) make his first selfless wish (his wish would have been to revive universe 6 if they lose and get erased), 17 makes that wish for him and revives all the other erased dimensions as well

Super's final arc is also a return to form, since it basically ditches the dragonball style humor in favor of action, the animation style even reverts to classic DBZ's animation style

[mochi]

13 hours ago, ben0119 said:

Uhh... Vegeta was "just following orders?"  That's how Toriyama tries to white-wash it.

Except he totally enjoyed slaughtering people.

And remember that time he trololo'd because that Namekian village he killed didn't come back because the wish was to revive those killed by Frieza and his men?

I thought the Dragon Balls could only bring back people who died within the last year.  At least at first anyway.

admittedly Toriyama is a fucking terrible writer

he admitted he planned for Vegeta to die and never come back after their first battle but his publishers pointed out that Vegeta was popular, AND that if he killed Vegeta there'd be no set up for the upcoming arc, so he left Vegeta alive

he then chose to basically SORT OF retcon Vegeta from being a literal homicidal maniac into a nice person who'd been "brainwashed" into being a homicidal maniac due to abuse, abduction, PTSD and survival instinct (namely him crying and begging Goku to avenge their race showed that he basically did what he did because he had to and didn't actually want to do it...even though previously he said he did it for fun)....BUUUT then turned around and made Vegeta still be an asshole and jealous of Goku even though if I recall the last thing he did in the Namek Saga was smile at Goku for keeping his promise to avenge Vegeta and the Saiyans

basically in Z Vegeta was stuck in a constant state of being Goku's friend.....then turning around and saying he hates him after its been established that they're friends now, and it was obviously just so they could keep the status quo of Vegeta and Goku being bitter rivals going

Super is kind of the same except it's more "solid" that Goku and Vegeta like eachother....Goku's just so stupid that Vegeta still yells at him a lot

[CatSoul]

Naruto ain't gay my dudes

[PokeNirvash]

I assume this is from the same magazine as the infamous Bart x Sakura image?

[Blatch]

So, Nickelodeon Magazine?

21 hours ago, mochi said:

Super's final arc is also a return to form, since it basically ditches the dragonball style humor in favor of action, the animation style even reverts to classic DBZ's animation style

Except the Dragon Ball franchise has almost always been a mix of action and comedy. Saying otherwise will get you massacred by the hardcore fans.

For what it's worth, a lot of them don't like what the Toonami treatment has done to their franchise. 

[EmpressAngel]

3 minutes ago, Blatch said:

Saying otherwise will get you massacred by the hardcore fans.

Okay but "hardcore Dragon Ball fan" is damn near the least threatening phrase I've ever seen.

[Blatch]

I take it you mean the ones who think DBZ is the best and most intense action show ever made? There's actually a contingent of fans who hate that idea, and love Dragon Ball because of the comedy. And note the lack of Z in that sentence, because they do love the original show and lament how it gets forgotten. Hell, some of them don't even like the idea of splitting the two anime up.

[mochi]

6 hours ago, Blatch said:

So, Nickelodeon Magazine?

Except the Dragon Ball franchise has almost always been a mix of action and comedy. Saying otherwise will get you massacred by the hardcore fans.

For what it's worth, a lot of them don't like what the Toonami treatment has done to their franchise. 

both clasic DB and DBZ had humor but Z leaned far more towards action

Super leans more towards comedy and the action feels tacked on just to make it more recodnizable to DBZ fans

basically it feels like they wanted to make a new dragonball but knew a dbz sequel would be more well recieved

[mochi]

10 hours ago, CatSoul said:

Naruto ain't gay my dudes

..................eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwww?

[mochi]

5 hours ago, Blatch said:

I take it you mean the ones who think DBZ is the best and most intense action show ever made? There's actually a contingent of fans who hate that idea, and love Dragon Ball because of the comedy. And note the lack of Z in that sentence, because they do love the original show and lament how it gets forgotten. Hell, some of them don't even like the idea of splitting the two anime up.

ironically I enjoy both classic Dragonball and DBZ as separate entities

 

and I don't think trying to mix their styles works

[Blatch]

Well, the disambiguation between the first series and Z is not present in the manga. Things keep trucking along after the King Piccolo arc as if it's just business, even despite the timeskip.

That's another sticking point in DB fandom... some people prefer that you read the manga, because the pacing is even better than Kai. You also don't have to worry about off-model animation.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Blatch

[ben0119]

On 7/15/2018 at 4:10 PM, mochi said:

admittedly I never had THAT much of an issue with GT's comedy

the questionable choices IMO came from them de-aging and de-powering Goku then somehow having Vegeta still be too weak to step in and take over after Goku had been regressed to his 12 year old state

if Goku were regressed back to his 12 year old power level vegeta would by default be the strongest person on the earth, and logicially would usurp Goku as the protagonist....but for some reason a 12 year old Goku was still stronger than a fully grown Vegeta

that, and If I think they aren't using Vegeta to his full potential in Super they REALLY weren't using him in GT since all he did in GT was get insulted by Bulla

 

  Reveal hidden contents

(IMO when Bulla is introduced in Super is when i feel like they start actually making Vegeta look good, namely the fact that he's actively making an effort to support his wife and baby and also actually finally gets to kick some ass in a real high stakes tournanemt, as well as (trying to) make his first selfless wish (his wish would have been to revive universe 6 if they lose and get erased), 17 makes that wish for him and revives all the other erased dimensions as well

Super's final arc is also a return to form, since it basically ditches the dragonball style humor in favor of action, the animation style even reverts to classic DBZ's animation style

That was done I think because they thought Goku was too powerful, so he needed to be nerfed for future villains to pose a threat.  I'm not sure about Vegeta, but GT should have been about the next generation.  If Toriyama hadn't come up with that stupid thing of Saiyans not aging, Goku and Vegeta could have been mentors, and then Goten, Trunks, Pan, and Uub could've been the next generation of Z fighters.  There was always a big thing about that in DBZ with Goku trying to prepare the kids to be the future defenders of Earth, with Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Uub (though going to live with Uub was ridiculous.)  If anything all that did was artificially prolong Goku's involvement as the main character in the story.  Was quite annoying.

Don't remember that with Bulla/Bra. 

And he cut his hair!  I remember freaking out because of that whole thing of Saiyans hair not growing longer.  But I guess maybe it could regrow to its former length, just not beyond that.  But that's another stupid thing, like the aging thing.

Hmm.  I'll have to see what I make of it when that comes.  I've enjoyed most of the comedy for the most part, especially the slice of life episodes.  It's funny watching these super-powered characters go through mundane everyday life things.  I will definitely appreciate an upgrade in art and animation style, though.

Edited July 29, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 7/15/2018 at 4:20 PM, mochi said:

admittedly Toriyama is a fucking terrible writer

he admitted he planned for Vegeta to die and never come back after their first battle but his publishers pointed out that Vegeta was popular, AND that if he killed Vegeta there'd be no set up for the upcoming arc, so he left Vegeta alive

he then chose to basically SORT OF retcon Vegeta from being a literal homicidal maniac into a nice person who'd been "brainwashed" into being a homicidal maniac due to abuse, abduction, PTSD and survival instinct (namely him crying and begging Goku to avenge their race showed that he basically did what he did because he had to and didn't actually want to do it...even though previously he said he did it for fun)....BUUUT then turned around and made Vegeta still be an asshole and jealous of Goku even though if I recall the last thing he did in the Namek Saga was smile at Goku for keeping his promise to avenge Vegeta and the Saiyans

basically in Z Vegeta was stuck in a constant state of being Goku's friend.....then turning around and saying he hates him after its been established that they're friends now, and it was obviously just so they could keep the status quo of Vegeta and Goku being bitter rivals going

Super is kind of the same except it's more "solid" that Goku and Vegeta like eachother....Goku's just so stupid that Vegeta still yells at him a lot

Yeah you pretty much summed it up.

Didn't know Vegeta was supposed to die though.  That's interesting.

Yeah Vegeta was obviously a sicko that enjoyed brutalizing and killing people, and that was tried to be hand-waved as Frieza making him do it etc.  And yeah it would seem multiple times like Vegeta was "one of the guys" and then he'd revert to a psychopath.  Yup, to prolong the rivalry.

Yeah in Super they are friendly rivals, at least.  Almost like an Odd Couple.  

Edit - found this -

Edited July 29, 2018 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 7/16/2018 at 1:44 PM, Blatch said:

I take it you mean the ones who think DBZ is the best and most intense action show ever made? There's actually a contingent of fans who hate that idea, and love Dragon Ball because of the comedy. And note the lack of Z in that sentence, because they do love the original show and lament how it gets forgotten. Hell, some of them don't even like the idea of splitting the two anime up.

From what I recall, it got less comedic after Goku grew up, not after the jump from DB to DBZ.  And I don't like the idea of separating them either.  It is a shame how Dragon Ball didn't get as much love as it should have.  It's because of how the franchise got brought over.  However, I will say that I personally prefer Dragon Ball to DBZ.  There's more of a story and a world to it.  Everywhere the characters went, the places and the people who lived there were developed.  I think about all we got of that in DBZ was Namek.  Goku was a cooler character and had a better personality.  Really, it seems like Goku just gets worse the older he gets.  Brain damage, maybe?  Master Roshi and other characters are much more of characters than they are later on, a lot of characters relegated to being cheerleaders, for one-note gags, or barely appearing, if at all.  So yeah, even though Vegeta is one of my favorite characters and obviously I still like DBZ a lot, Dragon Ball is superior for me.

Edited July 29, 2018 by ben0119