What is the modern definition of "masculinity?"

[scoobdog]

1 hour ago, André Toulon said:

Well now you have to elaborate, because I don't really associate my need to repress my emotions with anger. My anger generally manifests when I'm actually TRYING to convey feelings and I'm not getting a response 

It's bit hard to elaborate here because, by all objective measures, you're using anger correctly.  There are males (like a certain southern gentleman we know) who would express anger towards women and somehow connect that anger to the fact that Bernie didn't win.  Absurdity of the example aside, the man in this example is theoretically acknowledging that the anger is misplaced (probably as its own defense mechanism) and identifying a legitimate cause for anger.  What's missing is the last part... how to go about resolving that anger.

1 hour ago, Vamped said:

Thats where therapy comes in, assuming you want to to deprogram  

Everyone should utilize therapy, but that's not exactly a solution.  You can't go to therapy every time you're angry.

To put it another way, when you get angry at someone, especially it they've earned that anger, you have to do more than just resolve the anger.   Once the anger is alleviated, you then have to set up conditions for regaining trust in that same offender, to either ensure that said person doesn't make you angry again or to protect yourself in the inevitable event they reoffend.  Assuming the latter, now you have to change your behavior to accommodate the new rules for interacting with that individual.  The problem is that all of these steps should be automatic - you're not supposed to think about how you're going to treat your best friend after he or she hurts your feelings, you just know what happens next and you move forward.   When it's not automatic, you go to a therapist to help you through the process.

Now, if you were raised to suppress that anger, none of those automatic steps exist.  If lil Scoob's mom tell him to shake hands and make up with his little brother, all those steps are presumed, and, if lil Scoob has a high enough EQ, he's likely watched other people, including women, deal with anger and figured out for himself how to create those steps on his own.  If lil Scoob deosn't have that natural ability, he's going to need someone to walk him through that process.  A therapist could certainly do all that, but no therapist is going to want to live with little Scoob long enough to walk him through a coping process ever time his little brother tells him he's an idiot.

[Vamped]

52 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

It's bit hard to elaborate here because, by all objective measures, you're using anger correctly.  There are males (like a certain southern gentleman we know) who would express anger towards women and somehow connect that anger to the fact that Bernie didn't win.  Absurdity of the example aside, the man in this example is theoretically acknowledging that the anger is misplaced (probably as its own defense mechanism) and identifying a legitimate cause for anger.  What's missing is the last part... how to go about resolving that anger.

Everyone should utilize therapy, but that's not exactly a solution.  You can't go to therapy every time you're angry.

To put it another way, when you get angry at someone, especially it they've earned that anger, you have to do more than just resolve the anger.   Once the anger is alleviated, you then have to set up conditions for regaining trust in that same offender, to either ensure that said person doesn't make you angry again or to protect yourself in the inevitable event they reoffend.  Assuming the latter, now you have to change your behavior to accommodate the new rules for interacting with that individual.  The problem is that all of these steps should be automatic - you're not supposed to think about how you're going to treat your best friend after he or she hurts your feelings, you just know what happens next and you move forward.   When it's not automatic, you go to a therapist to help you through the process.

Now, if you were raised to suppress that anger, none of those automatic steps exist.  If lil Scoob's mom tell him to shake hands and make up with his little brother, all those steps are presumed, and, if lil Scoob has a high enough EQ, he's likely watched other people, including women, deal with anger and figured out for himself how to create those steps on his own.  If lil Scoob deosn't have that natural ability, he's going to need someone to walk him through that process.  A therapist could certainly do all that, but no therapist is going to want to live with little Scoob long enough to walk him through a coping process ever time his little brother tells him he's an idiot.

The therapist will teach you the coping skills you need so that you will use them on your own to get you through life situations. You have to put in the work, not the therapist 

[scoobdog]

24 minutes ago, Vamped said:

The therapist will teach you the coping skills you need so that you will use them on your own to get you through life situations. You have to put in the work, not the therapist 

That isn't my point.  It's not a one time thing:  you don't learn coping skills in a years' worth of sessions, you learn them over the course of roughly two decades.  You also don't start learning them as an adolescent, you start learning them as a toddler.

[Vamped]

10 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

That isn't my point.  It's not a one time thing:  you don't learn coping skills in a years' worth of sessions, you learn them over the course of roughly two decades.  You also don't start learning them as an adolescent, you start learning them as a toddler.

Then what was your point? Everybody learns coping skills, they just maybe maladaptive coping skills. The therapy helps you identify the maladaptive coping skills and unhelpful patterns of behavior and thoughts then gives you the tools to use better ones.

Sounds like an excuse not to go to therapy ... or say its ineffective 

[scoobdog]

22 minutes ago, Vamped said:

Then what was your point? Everybody learns coping skills, they just maybe maladaptive coping skills. The therapy helps you identify the maladaptive coping skills and unhelpful patterns of behavior and thoughts then gives you the tools to use better ones.

Sounds like an excuse not to go to therapy ... or say its ineffective 

You'll have to go back to my OP....

On 5/24/2024 at 11:35 AM, scoobdog said:

In essence, the opinion's author did a lengthy and details analysis on how men have essentially languished in an age where the traditional definition of masculinity has been exposed as toxic while a replacement has not been forthcoming.

Men learn how to be "manly" from their dads and part of that is learning the coping skills that come with dealing with everyday situations.  By no means does this say all men born before the mid '80s were incapable of learning how to be sensitive and emotionally competent; Buddy is a perfect example of how men can be without any special training.  Those men didn't learn that from their fathers, they likely learned that from their mothers.  They also didn't require male role models becuause emotionally competent role model males would be difficult to find regardless of race, social or economic status.

It's all well and good for a man to learn how to be a man from his mom.  I basically did, and that's not a knock on my dad or a suggestion he was bad at fathering.  I also learned a lot about coping mechanisms on my own, and that means a lot of introspection on why other males have absurd beliefs about women and their roles.  Taking away the toxic social noms that lead to misogyny is only half of the process:  men need to learn how to be girl parents or men have to learn how to support a spouse when she comes home from work.  I learned how to be a supportive SO by asking a shit load of questions of my gf, and I'm not sure I'm any good at it.

Therapy may be the best way to learn how to do those things.  How practical is it to mandate every single man undergo therapy?

[Vamped]

5 hours ago, scoobdog said:

I don’t want to interject too much here since you and Buddy are really advancing this discussion, but shouldn’t there be a third option?  The. “Told/conditioned” option is broad enough to catch most social pressures, and at the same time it doesn’t capture the training aspect.  Just because I (a man) know my anger derives from something unrelated and that processing my memories can give me several likely options for a program trigger, doesn’t mean I know how to deprogram the anger response.  Social toxicity can’t account for that.

This is the response I mentioned therapy about. I never said anything about mandating all single men go to therapy or as a default solution to your OP. You just seemed to try and dismiss the solutions therapy can provide by coming up with more details for a specific scenario that wasnt mentioned in the OP but still demonstrate problems that can be identified and worked through in therapy. 

 

[Dusty Shackleford]

 

Edited May 27 by -Kudasai-

[ghostrek]

6 hours ago, scoobdog said:

You do know, Ghosty.  You’re allowing your deep seated animus to those you consider antagonistic to overrule logic.

yes  i do 

 

hard thing to work on 

[scoobdog]

2 hours ago, Vamped said:

This is the response I mentioned therapy about. I never said anything about mandating all single men go to therapy or as a default solution to your OP. You just seemed to try and dismiss the solutions therapy can provide by coming up with more details for a specific scenario that wasnt mentioned in the OP but still demonstrate problems that can be identified and worked through in therapy. 

 

I didn't say you said....

Nevermind.

7 hours ago, Vamped said:

Thats where therapy comes in, assuming you want to to deprogram  

Yes, that is correct.

[scoobdog]

3 hours ago, ghostrek said:

yes  i do 

 

hard thing to work on 

It isn't.  Ghosty - if you're not open to what people are saying, just ignore it.  It does no good to complain about it anyway, so don't even listen to it.

[ghostrek]

33 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

It isn't.  Ghosty - if you're not open to what people are saying, just ignore it.  It does no good to complain about it anyway, so don't even listen to it.

@scoobdog  can you explain what I complain about 

just making sure we are on the same page

[scoobdog]

4 minutes ago, ghostrek said:

@scoobdog  can you explain what I complain about 

just making sure we are on the same page

I’m talking in the context of you having difficulty ignoring people.

[André Toulon]

Um....I think I learned most of my coping mechanism and my masculine tendencies from TV. My mom worked all the time. I was a girl dad at like 8 years old because I had to cook and clean up after my sister. 

Not to say my mom didn't teach me stuff and was t an influence, but I think more than anything else, my dedication to a role of father stems from me not having one, and the reason I'm reclusive is most of my therapy was sitting in my room, alone until I figured shit out....or at least developed a major fail of a plan that I quickly learned never to do again.

When I move to the south from Cali, I was definitely a feminine kid, because in Cali I was around my mom a lot. Once we moved, it was kinda like I was forced into a masculine role, and my male role models mostly hunt and drank. I picked up the drinking....the hunting kinda went away when I discovered video games. I didn't quite like the finality of death, but death within the confines of the TV....yes pls.

B

[ghostrek]

5 hours ago, André Toulon said:

Um....I think I learned most of my coping mechanism and my masculine tendencies from TV. My mom worked all the time. I was a girl dad at like 8 years old because I had to cook and clean up after my sister. 

Not to say my mom didn't teach me stuff and was t an influence, but I think more than anything else, my dedication to a role of father stems from me not having one, and the reason I'm reclusive is most of my therapy was sitting in my room, alone until I figured shit out....or at least developed a major fail of a plan that I quickly learned never to do again.

When I move to the south from Cali, I was definitely a feminine kid, because in Cali I was around my mom a lot. Once we moved, it was kinda like I was forced into a masculine role, and my male role models mostly hunt and drank. I picked up the drinking....the hunting kinda went away when I discovered video games. I didn't quite like the finality of death, but death within the confines of the TV....yes pls.

B

That's interesting

[André Toulon]

2 hours ago, ghostrek said:

That's interesting

Ok thank

[ghostrek]

4 hours ago, André Toulon said:

Ok thank

I encountered the same things at times but I live in a rural area myself but I don't think anything of hunting is not masculine I lived with people who rarely Hunted for food  and never hunted for trophy

Out of the hunting for a trophy, just plain wrong but hunting for food is you know getting food

But it's also the old Crocodile Dundee thing you know don't kill something unless you plan to eat it

Also I'm just going to State this straight up I grew up what people who that hunt that often but they also did other masculine things for example work on cars 

@André Toulon

Edited May 27 by ghostrek

[André Toulon]

50 minutes ago, ghostrek said:

I encountered the same things at times but I live in a rural area myself but I don't think anything of hunting is not masculine I lived with people who rarely Hunted for food  and never hunted for trophy

Out of the hunting for a trophy, just plain wrong but hunting for food is you know getting food

But it's also the old Crocodile Dundee thing you know don't kill something unless you plan to eat it

Also I'm just going to State this straight up I grew up what people who that hunt that often but they also did other masculine things for example work on cars 

@André Toulon

Goddammit, I'm doing this to myself but if they didn't hunt for food or for trophy....what did they hunt for.

And just for the sake of argument, my mom taught me how to change a flat and belts and how to check fluids in a car. 

Oh almost forgot @ghostrek

Edited May 27 by André Toulon

[Insipid]

35 minutes ago, ghostrek said:

 but I live in a rural area myself

 

 

On 4/13/2024 at 11:40 AM, Insipid said:

Don't you live in the sticks? I guess there are quite a few cars out there with crappy paint jobs when I have the misfortune of having to venture out there.

 

On 4/13/2024 at 6:52 PM, ghostrek said:

not really   not  a lot  but yes there some

🤔

[Vamped]

4 hours ago, ghostrek said:

 

Out of the hunting for a trophy, just plain wrong but hunting for food is you know getting food

But it's also the old Crocodile Dundee thing you know don't kill something unless you plan to eat it

 

They legally allow people to hunt deer to keep their populations under control. If you're not out here hunting endangered animals to extinction, what's the problem?

[Greeny]

2 hours ago, Vamped said:

They legally allow people to hunt deer to keep their populations under control. If you're not out here hunting endangered animals to extinction, what's the problem?

To be fair deer are assholes so if they want to take them out I say go for it.

[Vamped]

8 minutes ago, Greeny said:

To be fair deer are assholes so if they want to take them out I say go for it.

They also taste really good 

 

[Greeny]

3 minutes ago, Vamped said:

They also taste really good 

 

Beef and pork are better.

[Vamped]

1 minute ago, Greeny said:

Beef and pork are better.

Disagree. Worse for you and the environment ... American beef and pork anyway

[Greeny]

3 minutes ago, Vamped said:

Disagree. Worse for you and the environment ... American beef and pork anyway

I don't care about me or the environment.

[Vamped]

1 minute ago, Greeny said:

I don't care about me or the environment.

Clearly. Just from this thread alone

[scoobdog]

18 hours ago, André Toulon said:

Um....I think I learned most of my coping mechanism and my masculine tendencies from TV. My mom worked all the time. I was a girl dad at like 8 years old because I had to cook and clean up after my sister. 

Not to say my mom didn't teach me stuff and was t an influence, but I think more than anything else, my dedication to a role of father stems from me not having one, and the reason I'm reclusive is most of my therapy was sitting in my room, alone until I figured shit out....or at least developed a major fail of a plan that I quickly learned never to do again.

When I move to the south from Cali, I was definitely a feminine kid, because in Cali I was around my mom a lot. Once we moved, it was kinda like I was forced into a masculine role, and my male role models mostly hunt and drank. I picked up the drinking....the hunting kinda went away when I discovered video games. I didn't quite like the finality of death, but death within the confines of the TV....yes pls.

B

Well, you're a more put together individual than most anyone else - male or female.  Learning stuff from the TV is usually the domain of someone who has a natural ability to learn and adapt.

It kind of goes without saying that you're the prototypical man for the modern era.

[scoobdog]

3 hours ago, Vamped said:

They legally allow people to hunt deer to keep their populations under control. If you're not out here hunting endangered animals to extinction, what's the problem?

The reason there's an overpopulation of deer is because there are too few apex predators, typically bears, cougars or wolves, in the region.   Deer overpopulation can't really be "better" than sustainably farmed meat, so comparing it to beef, poultry or pork is misleading at best and, more likely, unfavorable unless you're so far off the grid, deer skin pants is the height of luxury.

[Vamped]

9 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

The reason there's an overpopulation of deer is because there are too few apex predators, typically bears, cougars or wolves, in the region.   Deer overpopulation can't really be "better" than sustainably farmed meat, so comparing it to beef, poultry or pork is misleading at best and, more likely, unfavorable unless you're so far off the grid, deer skin pants is the height of luxury.

But how much of American beef and pork is sustainably farmed or as lean as deer?

[André Toulon]

1 hour ago, scoobdog said:

Well, you're a more put together individual than most anyone else - male or female.  Learning stuff from the TV is usually the domain of someone who has a natural ability to learn and adapt.

It kind of goes without saying that you're the prototypical man for the modern era.

You're a good friend scoob, but I'm nothing if not honest and I can't wear a badge I don't deserve.

Bro, I'm a fucking mess. A stubborn man child that would rather play video games and watch cartoons than try to foster a healthy relationship with another person. I've taken stock in relationships I've had that lasted 5 years or so and I realized after a out year 2....I was just doing it because I thought it was normal. I've now subscribed to the notion that after 3 months or so, I'm just done wasting my time.

I am perfectly willing to to carry the kids mother around on my shoulders because I know once she's comfortable she'll go away.  If that's the prototype for the modern era, then it's pretty obvious humans won't make it.

TL Dr: thanks scoob, but your princess is in another castle.

[André Toulon]

Well, I wish I had noticed this had shifted to deer talk ...I could have saved my self-damning post.

[scoobdog]

36 minutes ago, Vamped said:

But how much of American beef and pork is sustainably farmed or as lean as deer?

Deer meat being leaner doesn't particularly serve a purpose because the cholesterol in venison is on part with that beef.  Cholesterol intake is the primary health impact on the consumer and the reason why red meat of any type is restricted.   On the other hand,  you're also not likely to eat remotely as much venison as beef on account of it not being farmed and not suitable for most fast food.  If we ate beef on roughly the same scale as we might eat venison, it would be more sustainable than venison because it can be farmed and processed on an industrial scale.

[scoobdog]

25 minutes ago, André Toulon said:

Well, I wish I had noticed this had shifted to deer talk ...I could have saved my self-damning post.

We probably shouldn't be.  Hunting isn't better when done by women. it just isn't exclusively toxic masculinity.