it's basically a matter of Opinion if you think super is canon

[mochi]

• it ties in quite a bit more with the established Canon than GT did
   
  but it's still not 100% Canon
   
  Toriyama's input isn't absolute, he actually just writes a generic outline for each arc and Toei's writers fill in everything else, meanwhile a Fan writes the manga adaption (literally he was just a DBZ Doujin writer who Shogakuan hired because he could mimmick Toriyama's style perfectly)
   
  it also disobeys established Canon from DB and DBZ at multiple points
   
  including

 

1. 
   Bulma having a sister
   Flight being something Saiyan's created (in dbz it was established that lots of races knew how to fly and that any race could learn but supposedly according to super it's a Saiyan thing now)
   Broly exists (but is a girl) and Broly is specifically a non-canon character that Toriyama had NOTHING to do with the creation of "he was even once asked about his Inspiration for Broly in an interview and his response was "who's broly?")
   and similarly to Bulma's Sister, another new female character is introduced later under the claim that she's an old friend of Tien's, she's a Chichi clone named "Yurin" (aka. Urine)
   

 

 

not to mention in the finale of DBZ (which takes place 10 years later) NONE of the events of Super are mentioned, and that ending (with Goku meeting Uub) is still considered Canon

[Daos]

Well there's a reason we call it a shameless cash grab.

[Blatch]

not to mention in the finale of DBZ (which takes place 10 years later) NONE of the events of Super are mentioned, and that ending (with Goku meeting Uub) is still considered Canon

 

That happened almost 20 years before Super came out. :robot|

[Jman]

Ok, it isn't canon.  We're done here.

[mochi]

That happened almost 20 years before Super came out. :robot|

yes, but it's still counted as Canon, ergo, Super, which contradicts it, is not

[StarPanda]

It's Def canon

[HardcoreHunter]

 

Bulma's sister came out in the Jaco space patrolman manga in 2013.  It just establishes that it takes place in the same universe. Same thing has been done with Dr.Slump.

When was it ever said that Sayins created flight? Everyone from the Crane School and Piccolo and Kami could fly in Dragonball.

Kale is the universe 6 legendary super sayin.

Filler characters have been a thing since dragonball.

 

 

 

 

[Top Gun]

It's DBZ, the "plot" is a flimsy excuse to get people to punch each other.

[Roymustang1990]

All those plot holes  :barf:

[The1gairon]

I knew something was up when I saw jokes and moments that seemed oddly non-DBZ-ish. 

 

Also, how many Dragonball Z-related threads have you started here!?

[Sandstone]

mochi[/member]

 

It's hard to say the anime isn't canon as he has direct involvement with the show and is designing the overall story arcs while leaving most of the smaller details and animation to the studio. If anything the Manga in this instance is not or at least not fully canon as Toriyama handed the reigns on that to the Mangaka that made the Dragonball AF fan manga and told him to "go wild" with it in an interview, which is why it has major discrepancies with the anime as it is more loosely based adaptation.

 

Toriyama interestingly enough gave an interview in 1997 and then repeated almost the exact same thing in a 2013 interview about how he never intended on Goku being seen as altruistic, but rather always wanted him to be a character that was battle hungry and as a result just happened to produce good-willed results (most of the time). It actually sounds like he wanted to make Goku an anti-hero but failed at doing so at least to the idea of what an Anti-Hero actually is. Possibly it could be said that Goku has just been lucky that he could mesh up his over all agenda with that of producing a good guy result, and perhaps we will see more of his true nature in later arcs of Dragon Ball Super.

 

 

 

Toriyama in 1997, on the nature of Goku's character and personality as he intended it:

Wired: There’s actually “poison” inside?

 

Toriyama: Right. There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.

Original Interview Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/wired-japan-1997-akira-toriyama-interview/

 

 

 

Toriyama again in 2013 (right before Battle of Gods) on the nature of Goku:

What is Son Goku to Toriyama-sensei?

 

Toriyama: At any rate, I wanted him to have the sense of being that rare guy who seeks only “to become stronger than before”, so much so that it feels like “there’s no one as pure as this person”. And while he does end up saving everyone as a result of that, he himself at least has a very pure sincerity about “wanting to become stronger”. What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result.

Nozawa: A strong person like this would absolutely show off that “I’m strong”, wouldn’t they? But [Goku] would absolutely not come out with that, would he? I’m always saying this to everyone, but the world would be an incredibly nice place if it were full of people like Goku.

 

Toriyama: I have a feeling that the world wouldn’t operate very well. (laughs)

 

Nozawa: (laughs)

Original Interview Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/akira-toriyama-masako-nozawa-special-talk/

 

 

 

In light of this, it could be said that if anything certain elements of Super are actually closer to the original way Toriyama intended for his story and characters to come across. It's also worth noting, that during many of these interviews that I've read things that people attribute to Toriyama being absent minded about things is not necessarily accurate in all cases, as he repeatedly says things like "I wasn't really concerned with the hair color of X character when I redrew them", ect... He has said repeatedly that he is not very concerned about specifics of minute details but rather the main intention and design of the over-all story. And he apparently has no qualms about retconning minor things, such as the Pilaf-gang actually being kids in Super rather than shrunken adults because he thought it would be fun basically and work well with what he wanted to do.

[HardcoreHunter]

Toriyama is a One Piece fan and wants Goku to be more like Luffy. Just smile like an idiot, want to get stronger, and eat lots of food. Toriyama wasn't a fan of hero Goku in Z, so he stepped as far from that in super. However Super Goku has become more of a sociopath, and doesn't really feel responsible for any of his actions.

 

 

Him fighting with Zamasu for example. Zamasu was a dick, but getting beat up by Goku made him insane enough to destroy a timeline, and made it necessary to kill him in the main timeline as well. Goku even gets Zeno to erase Future Trunks universe as a fix button despite it killing the entire universe. Then the Tournament of Power results in universes being destroyed. Zeno did say that he was going to destroy some of them, but only the worst ones. Apparently he never got around to it in future trunks's timeline as time is relative to immortals. Those few universes may have been on borrowed time, but now universes that may have been safe get destroyed as well.

 

[Sandstone]

Yeah, I totally agree with the direction Super is taking Goku's character. You outlined it perfectly. I'm just saying that it is canon. There isn't a strong argument that it's not canon, whether you or I happen to like it or not. It is indicative of what Toriyama apparently always envisioned for Goku per his own words in two separate interviews spanning over a decade and countless other indications he's given on related things.

 

I would disagree with the comparison of Goku to Luffy, mainly cause Luffy is not a sociopath and has actually likeable personality traits even though he tends to put on an act to appear dopey and outwardly unaffected. There are many scenes in which Luffy is clearly very emotionally upset and seeks to rectify what he sees as an injustice. This kind of reaction or thought process is never displayed by Goku, all we get from his the dopey outward attitude and then no actual substance underneath that either. Luffy also has very distinct and specific goals, which lead to a specific end point where he will be satisfied, and while he does seek to be strong he only seeks that in order to reach his goals and to protect his friends in that venture, anyone that has viewed the Battle of Marine Ford arc and its subsequent aftermath will understand what I mean by this. I dunno if Toriyama is a One Piece fan or not, but if he is and he wants Goku to be more like Luffy then he's sure doing a piss poor job of portraying that lol.

[CaptainStarwind]

If people don't want to accept Super as canon to the rest of the Dragon Ball universe, then there's nothing saying that they have to.  Sure, Toriyama can dictate the story than he wants and set his own canon in the universe, but that doesn't mean people have to accept it.  The Dragon Ball universe is fictional, and if people don't want to accept Super as a part of it, they can just ignore it.  The same goes for really any other universe.  At the end of the day, canon is determined by each individual person, rather than by the person who created the work.

 

That's my take on it, anyway.

[The1gairon]

Ironic.  The version of Goku in probably the most remembered and popular DB show, Z, was the one that his creator hated.

[Daos]

If people don't want to accept Super as canon to the rest of the Dragon Ball universe, then there's nothing saying that they have to.  Sure, Toriyama can dictate the story than he wants and set his own canon in the universe, but that doesn't mean people have to accept it.  The Dragon Ball universe is fictional, and if people don't want to accept Super as a part of it, they can just ignore it.  The same goes for really any other universe.  At the end of the day, canon is determined by each individual person, rather than by the person who created the work.

 

That's my take on it, anyway.

 

Well usually... the creator says what is and isn't Canon. But in the curious case of DB..... Toriyama basically gave up his rights to the franchise and just lets other people create content.

 

GT was canon.... then it wasn't.

 

All those Star Wars books that took place after Return of the Jedi? All Canon. Until Disney bought the rights and said they weren't. So they were. But now they're not.

 

Basically whoever the current owner of the franchise is gets to say what's canon and what isn't.

[HardcoreHunter]

Yeah, I totally agree with the direction Super is taking Goku's character. You outlined it perfectly. I'm just saying that it is canon. There isn't a strong argument that it's not canon, whether you or I happen to like it or not. It is indicative of what Toriyama apparently always envisioned for Goku per his own words in two separate interviews spanning over a decade and countless other indications he's given on related things.

 

I would disagree with the comparison of Goku to Luffy, mainly cause Luffy is not a sociopath and has actually likeable personality traits even though he tends to put on an act to appear dopey and outwardly unaffected. There are many scenes in which Luffy is clearly very emotionally upset and seeks to rectify what he sees as an injustice. This kind of reaction or thought process is never displayed by Goku, all we get from his the dopey outward attitude and then no actual substance underneath that either. Luffy also has very distinct and specific goals, which lead to a specific end point where he will be satisfied, and while he does seek to be strong he only seeks that in order to reach his goals and to protect his friends in that venture, anyone that has viewed the Battle of Marine Ford arc and its subsequent aftermath will understand what I mean by this. I dunno if Toriyama is a One Piece fan or not, but if he is and he wants Goku to be more like Luffy then he's sure doing a piss poor job of portraying that lol.

 

I agree that it's canon as well. Yeah Goku is far worse than Luffy, as Luffy actually will go out of his way to help people, while Goku will only help others if there is a good fight in it for him as it serves his self interests. Mainly the emulation of one piece has a lot to do with the art style shift making characters more lean rather than muscular and Goku's idiot moments being over 9000. Still like you said Luffy does know when to take shit serious and often puts his friends and others ahead of himself. Like when Boa gave him the option of leaving the island or staying and her undoing her ability to un-medusa Margureitte, Sweet Pea and Tall Girl (spacing on her name). He opted, happily to stay if it meant those three who he barely knew would be "revived". Also there have been a lot of moments with his actual crew members.  Pretty much with Goku it feels as if having easy access to undo button wishes has desensitized him to the safety of others. In DB and Z he at least showed concern. 

 

Toriyama also adding that Goku doesn't even know what kissing is makes me wonder if Chichi has only ever had sex with him after he passes out from food comas. He knows the action and what it means, but he says that he has never done that with chichi which confused the hell out of Vegeta. So it isn't like when he thought marriage was a food, he just has never kissed Chichi to his knowledge.

[HardcoreHunter]

Ironic.  The version of Goku in probably the most remembered and popular DB show, Z, was the one that his creator hated.

 

Great Saiyaman was actually created by Toriyama to make fun of the anime. The heroic speeches and stuff that were in the Z anime he felt were silly and only little kids would think it's cool.  So he made a sentai like alter ego for Gohan that does nothing but spout heroic one liners.

 

 

[Sandstone]

I agree that it's canon as well. Yeah Goku is far worse than Luffy, as Luffy actually will go out of his way to help people, while Goku will only help others if there is a good fight in it for him as it serves his self interests. Mainly the emulation of one piece has a lot to do with the art style shift making characters more lean rather than muscular and Goku's idiot moments being over 9000. Still like you said Luffy does know when to take shit serious and often puts his friends and others ahead of himself. Like when Boa gave him the option of leaving the island or staying and her undoing her ability to un-medusa Margureitte, Sweet Pea and Tall Girl (spacing on her name). He opted, happily to stay if it meant those three who he barely knew would be "revived". Also there have been a lot of moments with his actual crew members.  Pretty much with Goku it feels as if having easy access to undo button wishes has desensitized him to the safety of others. In DB and Z he at least showed concern. 

 

Toriyama also adding that Goku doesn't even know what kissing is makes me wonder if Chichi has only ever had sex with him after he passes out from food comas. He knows the action and what it means, but he says that he has never done that with chichi which confused the hell out of Vegeta. So it isn't like when he thought marriage was a food, he just has never kissed Chichi to his knowledge.

 

You laid it out perfectly. This is the reason why Luffy's crew all respect him even though he does dopey shit and acts retarded pretty often (it's mostly about stuff that doesn't even matter so who cares). It's gotten to the point where the Z Fighters are constantly cleaning up after Goku's mess and in constant peril because of his actions, with like no say in the matter and no real benefit for them.

[Sandstone]

Well, that explains why I fucking hate Saiyaman, other than the character just being awful in general and his costume being tacky as fuck. I just hate that he did it to Gohan, who was basically my favorite character in DBZ. And then he spits on him, even more, when Super rolled around by basically not utilizing him for anything other than joke roles for the first 3/4 of the series. I really don't get the ill treatment, Gohan was such a badass and was actually smart and good at strategy, unlike his fucking dumbass psychotic father that can do nothing other than strong arm situations and get really lucky.

 

It's at least good at this point (in the current sub at least), Gohan is getting a major comeback and actual legitimate important roles and significant screen time for things other than Saiyaman is lame spoof episodes.

[mochi]

I've never seem battle of the gods but some of the clips I've seen make it seem like it's Saga in Super is nothing like the movie

 

namely the scene with Mai trying to kill Trunks and Gohan Drunk never happens

 

nor does Vegeta's Bingo dance

 

 

something interesting to note

 

 

this is the only scene in all of the dragonball franchise were a gun actually hurt someone

 

edit: now that I think about it the Drunk Gohan scene might have been removed because recent censorship changes made it against guidelines to show teenagers drunk on Japanese TV, and Gohan is either 17 or 18 in super

[The1gairon]

One other thing I noticed: they're NOT on a boat during Bulma's birthday party! It's just a regular party!   Huh. 

[Sandstone]

Yeah, I never really understood the choice of venue for the Birthday party... like I guess just because she can cause she's like one of the richest people on earth in DB? Why not have a huge ass cruise!

[mochi]

Yeah, I never really understood the choice of venue for the Birthday party... like I guess just because she can cause she's like one of the richest people on earth in DB? Why not have a huge ass cruise!

Bulma is THE richest person on the Earth, her family apparently invented all of the earth's technology

[Roymustang1990]

Not even real handguns can damage the z warriors,though they never explained why (unlike hxh and naruto) where they explained everything that happens  in a fight to the point where it's exposition overkill . x_x

[Sandstone]

Bulma is THE richest person on the Earth, her family apparently invented all of the earth's technology

 

DB Universe has no anti-trust and anti-monopoly laws confirmed lmao.

[mochi]

DB Universe has no anti-trust and anti-monopoly laws confirmed lmao.

eh, at least her family are nice people'

 

(ironically including her Husband as of late)

[Sandstone]

If only mega corporations could all be run by benevolent scientists lol.

[HardcoreHunter]

Bulma is THE richest person on the Earth, her family apparently invented all of the earth's technology

 

According to an info book that Toriyama put out it's around 47%. The thing is they get the bulk of their money from the capsules themselves. You can put non CC items into capsules but you have to pay CC a fee to do it. For a car it's around $2k usd to have a capsule registered to it. Which is really saving money in the long run when you think of what you spend in a year if you park in a city (in pittsburgh it is around $800 a year). I assume the price changes based on the size of the item, a house or boat capsule will most likely be more than one that holds a car or food.

 

Also the item has to be registered with the capsule. So like a pokeball you can't steal another trainers pokemon even if it's the same type because it's registered differently. Good considering you wouldn't want someone just throwing all your shit into an easy to conceal capsule and fucking off with it.

[Sandstone]

So basically they are like propane tank refillers.

[The1gairon]

Yeah, I never really understood the choice of venue for the Birthday party... like I guess just because she can cause she's like one of the richest people on earth in DB? Why not have a huge ass cruise!

 

I guess it made sense because Bulma WOULD splurge on a cruise.  And because it offered a ton of additional opportunities to pad out the episodes for as slowly as they could (Pilaf's gang goes through hell to just get on the dam thing, it means Goten and Trunks can explore the ship, etc).

[ben0119]

mochi[/member]

 

It's hard to say the anime isn't canon as he has direct involvement with the show and is designing the overall story arcs while leaving most of the smaller details and animation to the studio. If anything the Manga in this instance is not or at least not fully canon as Toriyama handed the reigns on that to the Mangaka that made the Dragonball AF fan manga and told him to "go wild" with it in an interview, which is why it has major discrepancies with the anime as it is more loosely based adaptation.

 

Toriyama interestingly enough gave an interview in 1997 and then repeated almost the exact same thing in a 2013 interview about how he never intended on Goku being seen as altruistic, but rather always wanted him to be a character that was battle hungry and as a result just happened to produce good-willed results (most of the time). It actually sounds like he wanted to make Goku an anti-hero but failed at doing so at least to the idea of what an Anti-Hero actually is. Possibly it could be said that Goku has just been lucky that he could mesh up his over all agenda with that of producing a good guy result, and perhaps we will see more of his true nature in later arcs of Dragon Ball Super.

 

 

 

Toriyama in 1997, on the nature of Goku's character and personality as he intended it:Original Interview Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/wired-japan-1997-akira-toriyama-interview/

 

 

 

Toriyama again in 2013 (right before Battle of Gods) on the nature of Goku:Original Interview Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/akira-toriyama-masako-nozawa-special-talk/

 

 

 

In light of this, it could be said that if anything certain elements of Super are actually closer to the original way Toriyama intended for his story and characters to come across. It's also worth noting, that during many of these interviews that I've read things that people attribute to Toriyama being absent minded about things is not necessarily accurate in all cases, as he repeatedly says things like "I wasn't really concerned with the hair color of X character when I redrew them", ect... He has said repeatedly that he is not very concerned about specifics of minute details but rather the main intention and design of the over-all story. And he apparently has no qualms about retconning minor things, such as the Pilaf-gang actually being kids in Super rather than shrunken adults because he thought it would be fun basically and work well with what he wanted to do.

 

Didn't know Dragon Ball AF was an actual fan manga by an honest to god mangaka!  Always thought it was just some fan art/fan fic thing fans came up with.

 

But, Toriyama is full of shit to say he "always intended to Goku to be someone who just likes to fight strong guys."  When we're first introduced to him he helps people constantly, and is pretty good at judging when someone is a bad guy and helping someone out that they victimize.  The first time the Dragon Balls were used to revive someone was Bora, Upa's father who he had just met and befriended.  He fought Red Ribbon Army largely to stop them from causing the world pain.  He fought King Piccolo to avenge Krillin's death.  When Raditz comes to earth, he tries to talk him into leaving, and ultimately fights him to save his son (and the earth).  When Goku is fighting Frieza and losing, he has a vision of Freiza going to Earth and killing everyone he loves, which motivates him to get back in the fight.  GOKU TURNS SUPER SAIYAN AFTER FREIZA KILLS HIS BEST FRIEND.  He sacrifices himself to stop Cell from killing everyone!  You can't chalk this all up to "anime changes," either.  So yeah, Toriyama is full of shit here.  Anyway, we'll see how it goes.  Goku doesn't seem so bad in Super so far.

[ben0119]

I've never seem battle of the gods but some of the clips I've seen make it seem like it's Saga in Super is nothing like the movie

 

namely the scene with Mai trying to kill Trunks and Gohan Drunk never happens

 

nor does Vegeta's Bingo dance

 

 

 

 

something interesting to note

 

this is the only scene in all of the dragonball franchise were a gun actually hurt someone

 

edit: now that I think about it the Drunk Gohan scene might have been removed because recent censorship changes made it against guidelines to show teenagers drunk on Japanese TV, and Gohan is either 17 or 18 in super

 

You really should watch Battle of Gods, and Resurrection F too.  They're much better than the sagas in the anime.  The Frieza movie is also far kinder to Gohan as well.

 

Well, it probably hurt Videl because she wasn't prepared.  I imagine you have to be powered up to dodge/deflect bullets, and not in a relaxed state.

[ben0119]

Not even real handguns can damage the z warriors,though they never explained why (unlike hxh and naruto) where they explained everything that happens  in a fight to the point where it's exposition overkill . x_x

 

I imagine it probably has something to do with ki?  I wanted to say they would just catch or dodge bullets, but when I looked up Bora a scene is mentioned where he just tanks them.

[ben0119]

Well usually... the creator says what is and isn't Canon. But in the curious case of DB..... Toriyama basically gave up his rights to the franchise and just lets other people create content.

 

GT was canon.... then it wasn't.

 

All those Star Wars books that took place after Return of the Jedi? All Canon. Until Disney bought the rights and said they weren't. So they were. But now they're not.

 

Basically whoever the current owner of the franchise is gets to say what's canon and what isn't.

 

Actually...

 

In August 2005, Lucas himself said of the Expanded Universe material:

 

I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.

 

Not only that, but if anything George Lucas did contradicted the Expanded Universe, it would of course take precedence, and Lucas' sequel films weren't going to follow those books either. 

 

Also worth noting that Disney lets Lucasfilm do pretty much whatever they want and the people working there now are the same people who there before working with Lucas.  And he personally selected Kathleen Kennedy as his successor.

 

And I don't remember GT ever being canon...

[HardcoreHunter]

Didn't know Dragon Ball AF was an actual fan manga by an honest to god mangaka!  Always thought it was just some fan art/fan fic thing fans came up with.

 

But, Toriyama is full of shit to say he "always intended to Goku to be someone who just likes to fight strong guys."  When we're first introduced to him he helps people constantly, and is pretty good at judging when someone is a bad guy and helping someone out that they victimize.  The first time the Dragon Balls were used to revive someone was Bora, Upa's father who he had just met and befriended.  He fought Red Ribbon Army largely to stop them from causing the world pain.  He fought King Piccolo to avenge Krillin's death.  When Raditz comes to earth, he tries to talk him into leaving, and ultimately fights him to save his son (and the earth).  When Goku is fighting Frieza and losing, he has a vision of Freiza going to Earth and killing everyone he loves, which motivates him to get back in the fight.  GOKU TURNS SUPER SAIYAN AFTER FREIZA KILLS HIS BEST FRIEND.  He sacrifices himself to stop Cell from killing everyone!  You can't chalk this all up to "anime changes," either.  So yeah, Toriyama is full of shit here.  Anyway, we'll see how it goes.  Goku doesn't seem so bad in Super so far.

 

The AF guy only became a mangaka later on. When he did AF it was just fanfics for fun. Pretty much like me doing bhtsy but if I later got a real job writing a manga. He worked on GT and helped out with some character designs for Super. I'm not much of a fan of his stuff mainly because I get bored of robots. If you see a robot character in GT or Super odds are that they were designed by the AF guy. It does remind me a lot of how Toriyama keeps making villains the same. Thankfully the editor does step in to remind him that he has already drawn some characters. (from his interviews I seriously think her forgets).

 

Still yeah Toriyama got full off bullshit over the years. He reminds me of Miyamoto from nintendo at times. Legends and respectable in their own right but they should be locked away in a retirement facility and monitored while heavily medicated for some of the dumb ass things they say and do. If we go off of earliest Goku day 1 of meeting Bulma his interest was living alone and eating. When he met Bulma she convinced him to help her, there was even a line that Goku says as to why he needs to go with her and that was " Grandpa Gohan always told me that I should always  help a girl". Bulma says something along the lines of how Your grandpa must have been really smart.

 

So his first motivation was because his grandpa told him to help people "namely girls".  Through Dragonball there were many episodes where everyone else wanted to move on, but Goku wanted to stay and help. Half of the muscle tower arc was just him helping Snow's village and Android 8.  Then there was him training at Korin's tower to save that indian kids dad that got killed by Tao. Most of the Dragonball fights he was in he even gave his opponents a chance to backout before the fight, and would just end up murdering them in cold blood if they didn't. In DB he kills hundreds of people, him and Yajarobi even eat Drum one of the mutant namekians that Piccolo made.  Z though he only kills 2 enemies being Yakon who ate SS energy till he exploded and Kid Buu.

[mochi]

Goku doesn't seem so bad in Super so far.

he gets worse with time

 

if you want a spoiler,

he deliberately caused the conflict in the current arc airing in Japan, he knowingly and purposefully signed up all 13 universes to a tournament where whichever universe loses their universe just gets subtracted from existance forever, everyone dead, never coming back, gone forever, and the literal only reason he did it was because he wanted to fight stronger warriors for his own amusement, he's displayed an utter lack of caring for life in this arc, and has admitted that he's actually incapable of caring about anyone unless doing so personally benefits him somehow (I.e. he confessed to being a sociopath), at this point Goku has essentially progressed into being a villain with good publicity

 

basically Universe 7 (with the exception of Vegeta and Gohan who know what he did and are now extremely disillusioned with him) think's he's a good guy

but Universe 6 views him with the same scorn that most of the characters would view Frieza...and they aren't wrong to do so

 

[HardcoreHunter]

he gets worse with time

 

if you want a spoiler,

he deliberately caused the conflict in the current arc airing in Japan, he knowingly and purposefully signed up all 13 universes to a tournament where whichever universe loses their universe just gets subtracted from existance forever, everyone dead, never coming back, gone forever, and the literal only reason he did it was because he wanted to fight stronger warriors for his own amusement, he's displayed an utter lack of caring for life in this arc, and has admitted that he's actually incapable of caring about anyone unless doing so personally benefits him somehow (I.e. he confessed to being a sociopath), at this point Goku has essentially progressed into being a villain with good publicity

 

basically Universe 7 (with the exception of Vegeta and Gohan who know what he did and are now extremely disillusioned with him) think's he's a good guy

but Universe 6 views him with the same scorn that most of the characters would view Frieza...and they aren't wrong to do so

 

 

 

First he destroyed earth by toying with Frieza and not ending it when he could have. They only got out of that because Whis and Beerus played favorites. Later Beerus takes Goku to Universe 10. There he meets Zamasu who is a supreme kai in training, and has a cynical view towards mortal conflict. He decides to fight Zamasu who he easily beats. This enrages Zamasu that a mortal is more powerful than a Kai and turns his cynicism into outright  Megalomania. This leads to him being the bigbad in Future Trunk's timeline, and is only defeated by Goku having the omniking of that time erase all of universe 7 in that timeline. Goku shortly after pitches the battle royal between all the universes. It turns out that Zeno had a quality of life score for each universe and the bottom 8 would enviably be destroyed. Universe 7 was 2nd from last in this quality of life points system and ergo was going to be destroyed. The tournament made it so that only 1 of those 8 will be spared. The top 4 universes however are exempt from the tournament. 

 

U6 sayians and Hit at least like Goku and Vegeta. But overall universe 7 is viewed as the big bad of the arc by the other Kai's and G.O.Ds. As it stands Supreme Kai and Beerus should at least be replaced for being shit at their jobs. The job of the Supreme Kai is to create new planets while the G.O.D is to destroy old and troublesome worlds. Between Buu, Frieza's world trade federation, and Beerus blowing up or destroying life on planets, it's any wonder why U7 had such a low quality of life score. It is at the point where there are only 28 planets with life in the whole of U7. At this point Shin needs to be doing his damn job. The only time he ever even tried to do his job was with Buu and it feels like that was only due to personal reasons. 

 

 

[ben0119]

The AF guy only became a mangaka later on. When he did AF it was just fanfics for fun. Pretty much like me doing bhtsy but if I later got a real job writing a manga. He worked on GT and helped out with some character designs for Super. I'm not much of a fan of his stuff mainly because I get bored of robots. If you see a robot character in GT or Super odds are that they were designed by the AF guy. It does remind me a lot of how Toriyama keeps making villains the same. Thankfully the editor does step in to remind him that he has already drawn some characters. (from his interviews I seriously think her forgets).

 

Still yeah Toriyama got full off bullshit over the years. He reminds me of Miyamoto from nintendo at times. Legends and respectable in their own right but they should be locked away in a retirement facility and monitored while heavily medicated for some of the dumb ass things they say and do. If we go off of earliest Goku day 1 of meeting Bulma his interest was living alone and eating. When he met Bulma she convinced him to help her, there was even a line that Goku says as to why he needs to go with her and that was " Grandpa Gohan always told me that I should always  help a girl". Bulma says something along the lines of how Your grandpa must have been really smart.

 

So his first motivation was because his grandpa told him to help people "namely girls".  Through Dragonball there were many episodes where everyone else wanted to move on, but Goku wanted to stay and help. Half of the muscle tower arc was just him helping Snow's village and Android 8.  Then there was him training at Korin's tower to save that indian kids dad that got killed by Tao. Most of the Dragonball fights he was in he even gave his opponents a chance to backout before the fight, and would just end up murdering them in cold blood if they didn't. In DB he kills hundreds of people, him and Yajarobi even eat Drum one of the mutant namekians that Piccolo made.  Z though he only kills 2 enemies being Yakon who ate SS energy till he exploded and Kid Buu.

 

Oh I see, heh.  Yeah, repetitive robot designs, eh?

 

Oh yes definitely.  Throw Vince McMahon in there with them.

 

Agreed 100%!  You laid it all out perfectly.  Goku was always a sweetheart, PURE OF HEART which is why he could ride the Flying Nimbus.  Yeah that is one odd thing I haven't been able to figure out.  Goku had no issue with killing enemies in Dragon Ball, but for some reason gets this merciful streak in Z.  Not sure where it came from?

[Bookend47]

With the right amount of mental gymnastics anything can be canon, and vice versa, filler.