mochi Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 the Super manga has revealed that not only has Goku never kissed Chichi but he apparently didn't attend either of his son's births we already knew he wasn't there for Goten's (he didn't even know he had Goten until he was revived for the Buu Saga) but he apparently wasn't there for Gohan's birth either despite being alive when Chichi was Pregnant with him and Vegeta straight up tells him he's a horrible father to his face as a result of this revelation (in the anime a similar scene happens but it doesn't out-right confirm he avoided Gohan's birth, he just asks Vegeta to ditch Bulma and train with him and Vegeta calmly and bluntly tells Goku "no, I want to see my Daughter's birth" to which Goku gets pouty and says he doesn't get why Vegeta would want to see Bulla be born so badly) seems the Manga is being more critical of Goku's behavior than the anime edit: screenshot for Proof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I'm sure they'll change it in the US version of the anime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Dragon Ball Super - Because Peter Griffin was TOO NICE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokeNirvash Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I'd imagine it was just Goku rushing from wherever he was training to be there in time for the birth, only to miss it by a minute or so. This was before he became primarily focused on fighting, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 According to Toriyama this has always been Goku and the English dialogue was altered to make him a more stereotypical US hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Super takes a sadistic glee in making Goku a complete asshole. Even Dragonball Goku wasn't this bad. He was THE EMBODIMENT OF INNOCENCE! It's why he could ride the Kinto-Un in the story, because it wouldn't allow the impure to ride it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokeNirvash Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Yeah, but even Dragonball's definiton of pure is questionable, considering Vegeta reached Super Saiyan partly because his heart is, as he puts it, "pure evil". [more like pure unadulterated ego] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 Yeah, but even Dragonball's definiton of pure is questionable, considering Vegeta reached Super Saiyan partly because his heart is, as he puts it, "pure evil". [more like pure unadulterated ego] Porunga thinks Vegeta is a nice person so that kinda rules out his heart being Pure evil Vegeta just views himself as evil because he feels guilty about all the people he killed, but he really isn't evil (his behavior prior to meeting Bulma was largely due to his nightmarish life, truth is Vegeta was always a good person at heart he'd just been twisted by enslavement, kidnapping, having his species genocided and needing to develop a ruthless sense of self preservation in order to stay alive) had Frieza Never happened Vegeta would've been nice from the start Goku on the other hand was born a Bloodthirsty killing machine and was sent to earth to genocide all life there, he only became "nice" becuase he suffered a serious concussion as a baby, Goku's never been nice, he just has brain damadge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 Super takes a sadistic glee in making Goku a complete asshole. Even Dragonball Goku wasn't this bad. He was THE EMBODIMENT OF INNOCENCE! It's why he could ride the Kinto-Un in the story, because it wouldn't allow the impure to ride it! evidently, we don't know if Goku is still pure enough to ride Kinto-Un....he hasn't tried since he learned how to fly and instant transmit also Kinto-Un's judgement is questionable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainStarwind Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Porunga thinks Vegeta is a nice person so that kinda rules out his heart being Pure evil Vegeta just views himself as evil because he feels guilty about all the people he killed, but he really isn't evil (his behavior prior to meeting Bulma was largely due to his nightmarish life, truth is Vegeta was always a good person at heart he'd just been twisted by enslavement, kidnapping, having his species genocided and needing to develop a ruthless sense of self preservation in order to stay alive) had Frieza Never happened Vegeta would've been nice from the start I wouldn't go as far as to say that. The Saiyans were already established as a pretty warlike race prior to Frieza, weren't they? Had Frieza never occured, I don't think Vegeta would be a mass murderer, but he definitely wouldn't be a nice person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 We have plenty of heroes from warlike cultures or at least cultures with a love of fighting. Case in point- Thor. Except Thor genuinely is a hero, unlike Goku. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 evidently, we don't know if Goku is still pure enough to ride Kinto-Un....he hasn't tried since he learned how to fly and instant transmit also Kinto-Un's judgement is questionable He rides it in DBZ episode 1, so he managed to remain pure after banging Chi Chi and having Gohan. Japan got bored with regular heroes, they like everyone to be an antihero or a sociopath now. That's why Vegeta was always so popular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapinator_X Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 No wonder why Gohan was as troubled as he was. At the very least, he became a better family man than his dad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 I wouldn't go as far as to say that. The Saiyans were already established as a pretty warlike race prior to Frieza, weren't they? Had Frieza never occured, I don't think Vegeta would be a mass murderer, but he definitely wouldn't be a nice person. they were basically Kingons until Frieza got a hold of them I mean skin tone aside Vegeta even looks a little bit like Worf that said, they were a warrior race yes, the original reason Frieza chose to use them was because he witnessed them wipe-out another race called the "Tuffles" that had supposedly been opressing them for most of their history (according to King Kai the tuffles were a smaller and weaker race, but they had advanced technology and lived in utopian cities, but they hated the Saiyans and refused to share their technology with the Saiyans because they felt the saiyans were inferior stupid apes who didn't deserve their help so they segregated the Saiyans to wastelands outside of their cities, eventually the saiyans turned into great apes and wiped out all the tuffles) superficially it sounds like all the Saiyans did was fight back against centuries of racism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 The more I see of Super the more I just say GT happened instead. Oh yeah, I went there, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 GT at least had a plot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 He rides it in DBZ episode 1, so he managed to remain pure after banging Chi Chi and having Gohan. Japan got bored with regular heroes, they like everyone to be an antihero or a sociopath now. That's why Vegeta was always so popular. seems true heroes are becoming more popular than "sociopath heroes" now, seeing as how Vegeta is slowly becoming more popular in his super persona(where he is actually a sweet and nice guy), while fans are turning on Goku Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 GT at least had a plot. and consistent animation quality not to mention it's opening was actually good unlike Super's fucking horrible opening theme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNGAP-uHgg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainStarwind Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 The more I see of Super the more I just say GT happened instead. Oh yeah, I went there, I, too, never though the day would actually where I would say "Why can't GT be canon instead." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 I, too, never though the day would actually where I would say "Why can't GT be canon instead." I made that jump right after I saw this it's from a canon filler right after the current arc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 If they remade GT it could actually be good. If you edit out the 100 episodes of Goku exploring the universe with the annoying Pan and a wussified Trunks and just focus on Super 17 and Baby Vegeta.... you've actually got a decent DB show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 If they remade GT it could actually be good. If you edit out the 100 episodes of Goku exploring the universe with the annoying Pan and a wussified Trunks and just focus on Super 17 and Baby Vegeta.... you've actually got a decent DB show. okay, picking apart the few good things Super is doing....here's an addition to what you suggested if they remade GT this is what they should do 1. let Pan go Super saiyan, Super now has female Super Saiyans, Toriyama claimed the only reason he didn't design any female super Saiyans for GT was because he thought female characters would look disgusting with muscles, as of Super, he doesn't care 2. don't de-age Goku 3. keep Trunks's personality more in line with Future Trunks's and finally 4. give Vegeta some stand-alone meaningful victories and don't make every other episode be a Vegeta torture porn filler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 The Deaging wasn't a bad idea, it let them power down Goku and he needed powering down badly at that point. It would have made zero sense for them to constantly run into threats stronger than Majin Buu out in their universe. Powering him down gave them a chance for him to have even fights against semi powerful foes, but they mostly blew that chance. It also gave him something to shoot for to overcome. Finding the balls and undoing it. But then he just gets around it by going SS4. Not to mention that he's somehow stronger as a child in base form than every other character combined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 The Deaging wasn't a bad idea, it let them power down Goku and he needed powering down badly at that point. It would have made zero sense for them to constantly run into threats stronger than Majin Buu out in their universe. Powering him down gave them a chance for him to have even fights against semi powerful foes, but they mostly blew that chance. It also gave him something to shoot for to overcome. Finding the balls and undoing it. But then he just gets around it by going SS4. Not to mention that he's somehow stronger as a child in base form than every other character combined. so basically they de-powered him....but wait not really see, if they wanted to de-power Goku they couldv'e just had Pilaf's wish be "I wish that jerk was as much of a weakling as he was back when we first met him" then Goku could've stayed an adult, but had his power level be reset to his power level from DB, allowing them to retain Goku's adult design but have him be weaker and need to fight his way back up to his original power level Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 so basically they de-powered him....but wait not really see, if they wanted to de-power Goku they couldv'e just had Pilaf's wish be "I wish that jerk was as much of a weakling as he was back when we first met him" then Goku could've stayed an adult, but had his power level be reset to his power level from DB, allowing them to retain Goku's adult design but have him be weaker and need to fight his way back up to his original power level They didn't have Sean to voice adult Goku and I think they wanted to get a ton of mileage out of Goku being younger than his granddaughter. It could have worked with good writers. And he was depowered, he couldn't use SS3 anymore, but they made everyone else into complete jokes. Vegeta goes SS4 and they don't even let him have one fight. He just fuses. Oh and blowing the planet up? Piccolo dying? Fighting Freiza and Cell again? Gt did it all before Super did it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 They didn't have Sean to voice adult Goku and I think they wanted to get a ton of mileage out of Goku being younger than his granddaughter. It could have worked with good writers. And he was depowered, he couldn't use SS3 anymore, but they made everyone else into complete jokes. Vegeta goes SS4 and they don't even let him have one fight. He just fuses. Oh and blowing the planet up? Piccolo dying? Fighting Freiza and Cell again? Gt did it all before Super did it again. in Super Vegeta gets some fights later on but they seem to belive they have to counterbalance all his fights by having his battles be immediately followed by him being humiliated in needlessly excessive ways, like what happened in the end of Ressurection F(and it's arc in Super) and what ultimately happens to him in the current Toonami arc and the Black Goku arc, he keeps doing this thing where he kills an unimportant mook, then gets reeeeeally close to killing the real threat in each arc, then loses via some kind of crooked technicality, like losing because right before he kills frieza, frieza blows up the earth, or in this arc's case he literally loses because Champa's warriors are all cheating (which they get away with) oh and in the black Goku arc Vegeta gets really close to actually killing the villian, then out of nowhere something happens again that causes him to just barely lose, so they have a repeat of GT, and insist that the only way they can win is if he fuses with Goku, thus giving the victory to Goku Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Btw this will piss you off. Look who's at number 7 http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-feature/2017/07/28-1/10-of-the-best-anime-couples-ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 Btw this will piss you off. Look who's at number 7 http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-feature/2017/07/28-1/10-of-the-best-anime-couples-ever ALL of those pairings except for number 10 are disgusting....except for Shinichi and Murano, who I agree with are a good couple Naruto and Hinata are okay but only in a "we needed Naruto to be heterosexual at end game and Hinata likes him and doesn't physically abuse him so she makes sense as a love interest for him" viewpoint Kirito and Asuna pisses me off just because that show is fucking horrible and she's not his only girlfriend, he's also fucking that gun gale girl, HIS SISTER and like 3 other girls(one of whom he says reminds him of his sister even though she looks nothing like his sister, consult this video for more on that) Yuji and Shana...ehh, I've never seen this show so I can't form an opinion Yuuji and Shouko is awful for the same basic reason as Kirito and asuna because the show they'e from fucking sucks (and is homophobic but that's another discussion) Gajeel and Levy....**inales** AGAIN because I don't like this show and therefor hate all the pairings (it also has a homophobic....ish ending but it's written in a way that makes me think the author didn't WANT the ending to be homophobic but his publisher's forced his hand leading up to the ending every character was paired off with a romantic pairing except for Laxus, who had been seemingly being paired with another male character leading up to the finale, implying he was gay, the finale shows that each heterosexual pairing has been realized, except for his, and when Lucy asks what lucky lady he ends up with, he refuses to answer, they never confirm if he ended up with the male character he was so heavily ship-teased with or if he chose a girl, they just leave it completely unconfirmed, every straight pairing is confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubht but the one potential gay pairing is just kinda left open-ended with no confirmation or denial Minato and Naruto's mom...again I just kinda hate the show and the one at number one is horrible because the girl in the relationship is SO ABUSIVE, that the fanbase at some point unanimously agree'd that the show was meant to be a mean-spirited Satire of the Tsundere character type, until the Author confirmed that it was actually supposed to be a genuine romance and not a dark comedic abuse satire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Gun Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I guess I'm the only that thinks that Super's quality (or lack thereof) is pretty commensurate with the original DBZ as a whole. I mean the Final Chapters section of Kai has largely been flat-out dire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 I guess I'm the only that thinks that Super's quality (or lack thereof) is pretty commensurate with the original DBZ as a whole. I mean the Final Chapters section of Kai has largely been flat-out dire. on some level Super is trying to imitate classic Z but no, there are several differences between super and Z for one thing Z largely took itself seriously whereas Super is purely a joke and has had almost no serious moments(the only serious moments it has had so far were isolated parts of the fight between Vegeta and Frieza, and of course, those serious moments were retconned by Whis's time manipulation) secondly, Z's animation quality was actually considered decent back when it originally aired, Super's animation is unforgivably shoddy by modern anime standards, which is saying a lot 3rd, in order for Super's storyline to make sense they had to Retcon an absurd ammount of things pre and post story for the series to make sense so technically Super is asking the viewer to ignore DBZ's canon, which is rather bizzare, Super is basically only Partially canon because of this, apparently Goku and Vegeta's ages were retconned to make Goku slightly older than he was originally and Vegeta slightly younger, which doesn't effect much but it's still a strange change, not to mention the retcon that gave Bulma a sister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Oh come on Louise has a right to be a Tsundere. She's flat as a board surrounded by Saito's big breasted harem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokeNirvash Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 and consistent animation quality not to mention it's opening was actually good unlike Super's fucking horrible opening theme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNGAP-uHgg You saying I'm not allowed to enjoy Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku and Chozetsu Dynamic equally? :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 You saying I'm not allowed to enjoy Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku and Chozetsu Dynamic equally? :-\ Chouzetsu Dymanic's actual backing music isn't that bad, the singer sounds fucking awful to me, he sounds bored and like he has a cold you can like it all you want, I just think the singer is fucking terrible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Gun Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 for one thing Z largely took itself seriously whereas Super is purely a joke and has had almost no serious moments(the only serious moments it has had so far were isolated parts of the fight between Vegeta and Frieza, and of course, those serious moments were retconned by Whis's time manipulation) But here's the thing though: every time DBZ tries to create serious dramatic stakes, it falls flat on its face, because it's literally impossible to do so inside the Dragon Ball universe. Like, the whole franchise is literally titled after one of the most powerful deus ex machina in all of fiction. None of the characters ever feel like they're in legitimate danger, because even if they did die, someone will just hit the magic reset button again. When everyone starts to run up against the limits of the original Dragon Balls, poof, here come the more powerful Namekian variety to remove that in turn. In the Kai episode that just aired when Vegeta sacrifices himself attempting to kill Buu, it was admittedly a bit interesting seeing him act out-of-character, but I was just laughing at everyone (even the narrator!) acting all shocked, because it's like none of them remember the fact that they can magic him back at any time they want. Even the 12-year-old target audience would have figured things out by that point. Hell, even when the characters are actually dead for an extended period, we see them palling around in the afterlife with King Kai, so there's absolutely no sense of loss there. Goku chose to stay dead for 7 years just for the hell of it because he knew he could get called back into action any time he chose to. An object like the Dragon Balls works just fine in the early lighthearted portion of the franchise, when characters were making wishes for panties of all things, but the moment DBZ started trying to push these near-apocalyptic situations on the story, it just didn't work. And yes I'm well-aware that almost no shounen series out there ever kills off its main cast members, but most of them are still able to maintain a decent amount of dramatic tension during dangerous situations, because it's clear that someone could possibly die. Then when a significant character does actually get killed off for good, the rarity of it winds up making it all the more impactful. Tell me, when you step back for a bit, is there even a single instance of a character death in DBZ that winds up leaving any sort of lasting impact, at least if you're old enough to understand the series' underlying mechanisms? I can't think of any myself. Honestly, one of Super's highest points in my book is that it isn't afraid to poke fun at itself and hang a lampshade on some of the franchise's more absurd trends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Don't forget they have dragonballs AND a time machine AND Whis can rewind time as well. They've got undo buttons everywhere. GT added the dark star dragonballs, Super added planet sized dragonballs. The franchise is pretty stupid and out of ideas at this point. Other than "lets make every character a god." If Super actually had good fight scenes I wouldn't even care, but it can't even do that right. They created a way for characters to die permanently and then never used it or talked about it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 23, 2017 Author Share Posted August 23, 2017 Don't forget they have dragonballs AND a time machine AND Whis can rewind time as well. They've got undo buttons everywhere. GT added the dark star dragonballs, Super added planet sized dragonballs. The franchise is pretty stupid and out of ideas at this point. Other than "lets make every character Goku a god." If Super actually had good fight scenes I wouldn't even care, but it can't even do that right. They created a way for characters to die permanently and then never used it or talked about it again. also I don't remember them ever creating a form of permanent death in Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 You have to die with your body from "other world" Goku tells Vegeta during the Kid Buu fight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Remember when GT CALLED OUT EVERYONE on Dragonball abuse? Good times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daos Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Remember when GT CALLED OUT EVERYONE on Dragonball abuse? Good times. Lol yeah, they blamed Bulma for inventing the Dragonball Radar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 23, 2017 Author Share Posted August 23, 2017 You have to die with your body from "other world" Goku tells Vegeta during the Kid Buu fight in other words if you die while you're already dead you cease to exist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mochi Posted August 23, 2017 Author Share Posted August 23, 2017 Remember when GT CALLED OUT EVERYONE on Dragonball abuse? Good times. yeah, when Shenlong himself decided to devide himself into 7 seperate Dragons and curse the whole planet for abusing his wishes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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