Putin: "Stick to the timeline!"

[matrixman124]

2 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

These horrors happen in every war. This is why it is important to oppose war, and not support war while rooting for America to "win" as so many of you are doing. 

Do you know anything about what the people of Afghanistan have been through the last 20 years? Rapes galore but I never once saw you say a word about that. 

I'm against Russia's actions, it is possible and in fact quite easy to hold this position while not simultaneously cheerleading for American imperialism. But y'all don't seem interested in threading that needle because World Police fuck yeah

"Welp Russia already invaded, no crying over spilled milk"

My guy, they shouldn't just be able to take the parts of Ukraine they occupied. That is enabling Russia to take more land the next time they want to invade a country.

Nobody should invade another sovereign nation or encourage a coup to replace the lawfully elected government. Nobody should get away with it either.

[Distortedreasoning]

6 minutes ago, katt_goddess said:

Criticism is criticism. You claimed he never had anything bad to say about America, I say differently and that criticism has happened. 

But as far as the topic of this thread goes, I find it hard to believe that anyone would have such a hate boner that they would willingly come into this thread and defend the invasion of another country [ including defending the rapes of 4 year olds at the most recent reporting which is apparently the acceptable behavior of the invaders   and which none of the Russia Good! defenders have actually even acknowledged ] and keep insisting that anyone against Russia's actions is somehow a cheerleader for the American version of imperialism. 

its not enough! if you call yourself a leftists like stillgar does, you need to be extra critical of foreign policy. pointing fingers at everyone else when our country is involved in most of these messes is hypocritical. 

the ukrainian government does not have the interests of their people at heart. its clear that they are taking orders from nato. this is what happens after a coupe. despite majority of ukranians wanting friendly relations with russia. 

 

 

[Distortedreasoning]

12 minutes ago, stilgar said:

Lol, brain corrupted by Russian propaganda.

brain corrupted by cia propaganda.

the US is the most propagandize nation in history. 

[NewBluntsworth]

1 hour ago, matrixman124 said:

My guy, they shouldn't just be able to take the parts of Ukraine they occupied.

These are parts of Ukraine that have been at war with the Ukrainian govt ever since the coup in 2014. These are people who don't want to live under a coup government, Ukrainian citizens who saw the Nazis which terrorized them and helped overthrow the govt get rewarded by being officially incorporated into Ukraine's military. 10,000+ deaths over the last eight years in eastern Ukraine from the fighting. Ukraine govt been killing and bombing its own citizens that whole time. These are people and places that begged Russia to come in and put a stop to this madness. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by NewBluntsworth

[Distortedreasoning]

8 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

Ukraine isn't going to invade Russia. Nobody was going to invade Russia.

Therefore you just maintain the border. You don't start a war that gets your own people and Ukrainians killed.

so if you are russia, you are ok with nato being next door?

nato who has a terrible history of causing lots of shit? way more damage than what russia has done to ukraine. 

what do you think the US reactions would be if russia or china installed a base in mexico?

 

[matrixman124]

3 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

These are parts of Ukraine that have been at war with the Ukrainian govt ever since the coup in 2014. These are people who don't want to live under a coup government that saw the Nazis which terrorized them and helped overthrow the govt get rewarded by being officially incorporated into Ukraine's military. 10,000+ deaths over the last eight years in eastern Ukraine from the fighting. Ukraine govt been kling and bombing its own citizens that whole time. These are people and places that begged Russia to come in and put a stop to this madness. 

My guy, Russia is not invading Ukraine to help the Russians in Ukraine. It's invading Ukraine because it wants Ukraine to be its own puppet state.

[matrixman124]

1 minute ago, Distortedreasoning said:

so if you are russia, you are ok with nato being next door?

nato who has a terrible history of causing lots of shit? way more damage than what russia has done to ukraine. 

what do you think the US reactions would be if russia or china installed a base in mexico?

 

Russia and the west have both caused their share of damage. But an outright invasion and war will always cause more long-term death and destruction than any other political subterfuge and conflicts.

[Sieg67]

They may have a point.  I mean, who wouldn't want to be ruled by this stud of a dictator?

[NewBluntsworth]

"Fellas fellas, why can't we get along? Can't we all agree to eke out some token boilerplate condemnation for the US instigating a right-wing coup and subsequently spending years arming and training Nazi militias on Russia's border, while also adamantly rooting for America's war industrial complex to successfully keep the money and the weapons flowing into Ukraine for as long as this war takes to drive Russia out of Ukraine? How are these two stances incompatible??"

Not even exaggerating when I say y'all are going to cheerlead us right into nuclear war. It is just shameful how ignorant and warmongering Americans are, and no amount of tubby white tears crying about "b-b-but Russia did an invasion, so that automatically gives America the Global Empire the right to get involved however it seems fit and fan the flames of this war for months and years if need be, r-right??" are going to save anyone from the resulting cataclysm of this endless globe-spanning imperial warmongering that you supported. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by NewBluntsworth

[matrixman124]

2 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

"Fellas fellas, why can't we get along? Can't we all agree to eke out some token boilerplate condemnation for the US instigating a right-wing coup and subsequently spending years arming and training Nazi militias on Russia's border, while also adamantly rooting for America's war industrial complex to successfully keep the money and the weapons flowing into Ukraine for as long as this war takes to drive Russia out of Ukraine? How are these two stances incompatible??"

Not even exaggerating when I say y'all are going to cheerlead us right into nuclear war. It is just shameful how ignorant and warmongering Americans are, and no amount of crying about "b-b-but Russia did an invasion, so that automatically gives America the Global Empire the right to get involved however it seems fit and fan the flames of this war for months and years if need be, r-right??"

No. NO. 

Bruh Russia did an invasion.

Edited September 25, 2022 by matrixman124

[scoobdog]

49 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

i know how this place works. saw you a few post before already trying to discredit nabs link that countered your point. i post my links you gonna say something along the lines of "not credible". be honest, this entire topic is nothing but supporting the nato/west line of russia bad. no other narratives allowed. 

That link was particularly bad, so it wasn’t hard to discredit.  This topic is about how Russia invaded Ukraine.  There are plenty of viewpoints that don’t include the objectively bad take that the United State and NATO goaded a despotic Putin into waging war against innocent civilians.  Your take is shit and you should feel stupid for making it.

[NewBluntsworth]

8 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

My guy, Russia is not invading Ukraine to help the Russians in Ukraine. It's invading Ukraine because it wants Ukraine to be its own puppet state.

Idk who you think you're responding to with this but it sure isn't me? Go back and reread what I wrote and then moderate your response. 

All I said were facts...you appear here to have built an unrelated strawman out of them to knock down in underwhelming fashion. Looks...fun, I guess, but does nothing to change the underlying facts. 

[NewBluntsworth]

5 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

Bruh Russian did an invasion.

Right, only America and its friends are allowed to do those, this is the very heart of the issue. Anyone else tries to do one and we have to have global famine and a nuclear war over it. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by NewBluntsworth

[Distortedreasoning]

10 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

Russia and the west have both caused their share of damage. But an outright invasion and war will always cause more long-term death and destruction than any other political subterfuge and conflicts.

yes. but why try to provoke and get to that point? why play that game with another nuclear power? why not shoot for peace? the west not interested in peace. 

[Sieg67]

Nato is a defense alliance.  Russia shouldn't give a single fuck about Nato as long as it doesn't attack it's members.  I also don't really see why Nato existing would provoke Putin to attack Ukraine.
You're against war but seem to have the asinine belief that Ukraine should submit to Russia to stop the war.  It's on Putin to stop the fighting.  Putin is now dragging his citizens into a fight they don't want to be apart of.

What good is coming out of Putin's attack?  What's the point?

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Sieg67

[scoobdog]

19 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

so if you are russia, you are ok with nato being next door?

nato who has a terrible history of causing lots of shit? way more damage than what russia has done to ukraine. 

what do you think the US reactions would be if russia or china installed a base in mexico?

 

NATO wasn’t going to add Ukraine.  That was always a red herring.

[Distortedreasoning]

4 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

That link was particularly bad, so it wasn’t hard to discredit.  This topic is about how Russia invaded Ukraine.  There are plenty of viewpoints that don’t include the objectively bad take that the United State and NATO goaded a despotic Putin into waging war against innocent civilians.  Your take is shit and you should feel stupid for making it.

then dont act as if all those newsweek links are legit. all these links that are clearly anti russian, they remind me of those fake links they used to post of kim jong un killing a high official. only for weeks later that official turned out to be ok. tho im not a fan of jacobin either but publications can get it right sometimes. and you are clearly brained washed to being anti russia. tho i understand you were born at a time when that sentiment was normal. 

[PenguinBoss]

8 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

Right, only America and its friends are allowed to do those, this is the very heart of the issue. Anyone else tries to do one and we have to have global famine and a nuclear war over it. 

 

31 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

Nobody should invade another sovereign nation or encourage a coup to replace the lawfully elected government. Nobody should get away with it either.

Literally 20 minutes apart. I honestly don't know how you can complain about straw men and people not reading unironically.

[matrixman124]

11 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

yes. but why try to provoke and get to that point? why play that game with another nuclear power? why not shoot for peace? the west not interested in peace. 

Well Russia certainly doesn't want peace lol

[Distortedreasoning]

3 minutes ago, Sieg67 said:

Nato is a defense alliance.  Russia shouldn't give a single fuck about Nato as long as it doesn't attack it's members.  I also don't really see why Nato existing would provoke Putin to attack Ukraine.
You're against war but seem to have the asinine belief that Ukraine should submit to Russia to stop the war.  It's on Putin to stop the fighting.  Putin is now dragging his citizens into a fight they don't want to be apart of.

What good is coming out of Putin's attack?  What's the point?

 

defense really?

lets ask libya.

[matrixman124]

14 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

Idk who you think you're responding to with this but it sure isn't me? Go back and reread what I wrote and then moderate your response. 

All I said were facts...you appear here to have built an unrelated strawman out of them to knock down in underwhelming fashion. Looks...fun, I guess, but does nothing to change the underlying facts. 

My guy, you literally talked about Ukrainians wanting Russia to help them.

Quote

These are people and places that begged Russia to come in and put a stop to this madness. 

 From Day 1, Putin has said he's invading to liberate the Russians in Ukraine. But that is not his actual goal. You are just eating up his bullshit.

[NewBluntsworth]

6 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

yes. but why try to provoke and get to that point? why play that game with another nuclear power? why not shoot for peace? the west not interested in peace. 

Everyone's got a million reasons why they don't support a peaceful resolution to this war as quickly as possible, compromising and conceding anything to Russia is presented as just absolutely intolerable. "He's a Hitler!" 

All of the realistic agreements and avenues to ending this war ASAP are coded as submission and appeasement and bitchmade and all these other metaphysical things -- to them it's worth every bit of death and destruction for as long as it takes to end this war on America's terms. 

America agitated for this war, it got what it wanted, and now is seeking to maximize its imperial gains and goals with a prolonged war aimed at weakening Russia. That is what is happening and that is why any realistic peaceful resolution is simply not an option. 

Regardless of any other opinions and disagreements we all may have on this issue, getting America and its military and weapons of war the hell out of this mess should be the strongest and most central position any American holds on this war, really any war but especially this one where nuclear holocaust hangs in the balance. 

[Distortedreasoning]

1 minute ago, matrixman124 said:

Well Russia certainly doesn't want peace lol

the west never made an honest effort at peace. 

[matrixman124]

6 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

tho im not a fan of jacobin either but publications can get it right sometimes.

LOL picking and choosing I see 

[matrixman124]

Just now, Distortedreasoning said:

the west never made an honest effort at peace. 

Here is the problem: Russia won't want peace as long as Ukraine is a western puppet, the west won't want peace as long as Ukraine is a Russian puppet. That is what we call a conundrum.

[matrixman124]

2 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

Everyone's got a million reasons why they don't support a peaceful resolution to this war as quickly as possible, compromising and conceding anything to Russia is presented as just absolutely intolerable. "He's a Hitler!" 

All of the realistic agreements and avenues to ending this war ASAP are coded as submission and appeasement and bitchmade and all these other metaphysical things -- to them it's worth every bit of death and destruction for as long as it takes to end this war on America's terms. 

America agitated for this war, it got what it wanted, and now is seeking to maximize its imperial gains and goals with a prolonged war aimed at weakening Russia. That is what is happening and that is why any realistic peaceful resolution is simply not an option. 

Regardless of any other opinions and disagreements we all may have on this issue, getting America and its military and weapons of war the hell out of this mess should be the strongest and most central position any American holds on this war, really any war but especially this one where nuclear holocaust hangs in the balance. 

The fact that you think Russia will stop being an aggressor is pretty hilarious to me.

Edited September 25, 2022 by matrixman124

[Distortedreasoning]

Just now, matrixman124 said:

LOL picking and choosing I see 

just acknowledging bad publications can get it right sometimes.  

[NewBluntsworth]

3 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

My guy, you literally talked about Ukrainians wanting Russia to help them.

Yes? Because it's true? Because these people want to be part of Russia and not the coup government that has harnessed Nazis and """ultra-nationalists""" to stamp out their  dissent? 

4 minutes ago, matrixman124 said:

From Day 1, Putin has said he's invading to liberate the Russians in Ukraine. But that is not his actual goal. You are just eating up his bullshit.

How am I eating up his bullshit by accurately providing factual context for what has been going on in eastern Ukraine for the better part of a decade? 

[matrixman124]

Just now, NewBluntsworth said:

Yes? Because it's true? Because these people want to be part of Russia and not the coup government that has harnessed Nazis and """ultra-nationalists""" to stamp out their  dissent? 

How am I eating up his bullshit by accurately providing factual context for what has been going on in eastern Ukraine for the better part of a decade? 

Because that is NOT what is motivating Russia.

[Distortedreasoning]

1 minute ago, matrixman124 said:

Here is the problem: Russia won't want peace as long as Ukraine is a western puppet, the west won't want peace as long as Ukraine is a Russian puppet. That is what we call a conundrum.

that is not our call to make. if ukraine wanted to be more pro russia in 2014, it was their call. we had no right to interfere. i do agree that neutrality would work best for the region. even zelynsky ran on a platform of having friendly relations with russia back when he was elected. a position he turned his back on. 

[scoobdog]

7 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

then dont act as if all those newsweek links are legit. all these links that are clearly anti russian, they remind me of those fake links they used to post of kim jong un killing a high official. only for weeks later that official turned out to be ok. tho im not a fan of jacobin either but publications can get it right sometimes. and you are clearly brained washed to being anti russia. tho i understand you were born at a time when that sentiment was normal. 

I don’t rely on any articles to make my arguments.  To be clear, I don’t care what article you use to back up your point, even if it is bad.  I care that you use any article to make your point for you.  If your article is shit, your take is automatically shit.

[matrixman124]

5 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

that is not our call to make. if ukraine wanted to be more pro russia in 2014, it was their call. we had no right to interfere. i do agree that neutrality would work best for the region. even zelynsky ran on a platform of having friendly relations with russia back when he was elected. a position he turned his back on. 

I don't think Zelenskyy could very well just flipped to a more neutral position because of NATO. He certainly didn't want Russia to invade.

 

[Sieg67]

57 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

These horrors happen in every war. This is why it is important to oppose war, and not support war while rooting for America to "win" as so many of you are doing. 

Do you know anything about what the people of Afghanistan have been through the last 20 years? Rapes galore but I never once saw you say a word about that. 

I'm against Russia's actions, it is possible and in fact quite easy to hold this position while not simultaneously cheerleading for American imperialism. But y'all don't seem interested in threading that needle because World Police fuck yeah

LITERALLY NOBODY HERE IS CHEERLEADING FOR AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.

We think the Russian attack Ukraine is bad and would like to see Ukraine thwart Putin's effort.
If Ukraine wanted to be a part of Russia, they wouldn't be resisting. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Sieg67

[Distortedreasoning]

2 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

I don’t rely on any articles to make my arguments.  To be clear, I don’t care what article you use to back up your point, even if it is bad.  I care that you use any article to make your point for you.  If your article is shit, your take is automatically shit.

then where you getting your information from? 

[NewBluntsworth]

Just now, matrixman124 said:

Because that is NOT what is motivating Russia.

You can keep batting at that strawman all you want, but you'll never find me saying such a thing. 

I gave accurate context in response to your blanket armchair declaration that Russia shouldn't get to take any land it occupied by intervening in the civil war that had been raging on its border ever since the US-backed coup. Russia was invited in at the urging of the leadership of those eastern regions which have been fighting the posr-coup govt/military all this time, that was the situation on the ground before the war and, barring some catastrophic event there, it will be the situation after.  

You ascribing the Russian state media line to me doesn't change any of this. 

[Distortedreasoning]

1 minute ago, matrixman124 said:

I don't think Zelenskyy could very well just flipped to a more neutral position because of NATO. He certainly didn't want Russia to invade.

 

i dont think anyone ever anticipated how russia was going to respond, but there was a ceasefire in effect, and ukraine was ignoring it. what should russia do in that situation? why not honor this agreement to prevent further escalations? 

[NewBluntsworth]

8 minutes ago, Sieg67 said:

LITERALLY NOBODY HERE IS CHEERING FOR AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.

We think Russian attack Ukraine is bad and would like to see Ukraine thwart Putin's effort.

The only reason that Ukraine is able to #resist at all in this war with Russia that America instigated *IS* American imperialism. America's imperialist foreign policy is the only thing that has dragged this war on for so long, so yes, it seems to me that most everybody is cheering for American imperialism here. 

"We don't support America's imperialism GENERALLY, just this one time as a special treat because Putin is so Hitler" 

🤡 tier 

Edited September 25, 2022 by NewBluntsworth

[scoobdog]

13 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

that is not our call to make. if ukraine wanted to be more pro russia in 2014, it was their call. we had no right to interfere. i do agree that neutrality would work best for the region. even zelynsky ran on a platform of having friendly relations with russia back when he was elected. a position he turned his back on. 

That isn’t exactly true.  The impetus for this uprising was a dispute between a EU friendly legislature and a Russian friendly President.

[NewBluntsworth]

"Look fellas, now I am by no means one of those awful American imperialists you hear about on the NPR, we should mind our P's and Q's...but this Saddam fella has got to go, he's a Hitler, he has a bunch of weapons, and his war-mongering madness simply must be stopped. And after that I promise, no more supporting American imperialism for me!"

[scoobdog]

9 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

then where you getting your information from? 

From everywhere.  I don’t take information at face value.

[Distortedreasoning]

8 minutes ago, Sieg67 said:

LITERALLY NOBODY HERE IS CHEERLEADING FOR AMERICAN IMPERIALISM.

We think the Russian attack Ukraine is bad and would like to see Ukraine thwart Putin's effort.
If Ukraine wanted to be a part of Russia, they wouldn't be resisting. 

then why not be harsh to our government. no one else here is showing the our government same energy they showing russia. they are just as complicit in all of this. billions provided in war, while there are cities without any drinking water or shortage of tampons. we really shouldn't even be involved in any of this. 

[Distortedreasoning]

Just now, scoobdog said:

From everywhere.  I don’t take information at face value.

lots of shitty places out there man. how are you so sure you are not the one with the shitty takes? 

[Sieg67]

8 minutes ago, NewBluntsworth said:

The only reason that Ukraine is able to #resist at all in this war with Russia that America instigated *IS* American imperialism. America's imperialist foreign policy is the only thing that has dragged this war on for so long, so yes, it seems to me that most everybody is cheering for American imperialism here. 

"We don't support America's imperialism GENERALLY, just this one time as a special treat because Putin is so Hitler" 

🤡 tier 

You're completely ignoring the other countries who have helped.  We're not the only ones supporting Ukraine.
I don't know what Russian propaganda sites you've been frequenting but it's utterly and completely brainwashing you.

You've fallen victim to Putin's propaganda machine.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Sieg67

[scoobdog]

Just now, Distortedreasoning said:

lots of shitty places out there man. how are you so sure you are not the one with the shitty takes? 

It’s pretty obvious.

[NewBluntsworth]

2 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

we really shouldn't even be involved in any of this.

Careful now, that's getting dangerously close to *actual* anti-imperialism. We don't take kindly to those types around here. 

Only type of anti-imperialism that flies in these parts is the wishy washy variety that claims to have always opposed American imperialism right up until whatever the latest war is that America is sinking its weapons and money into this week, this one's special because we're fighting a Hitler, so all of our imperialistic goals and tactics are justified and good. What, do you stand with this week's HITLER or something? 

[Distortedreasoning]

1 minute ago, Sieg67 said:

You're completely ignoring the other countries who have helped.  We're not the only ones supporting Ukraine.
I don't know what Russian propaganda sites you've been frequenting but it's utterly and completely brainwashing you.

You've fallen victim to Putin's propaganda machine.

europe and the west get rolled into one.

tho im not sure why europe is going along with all of this when they were heavily reliant on russian oil for energy.

we will most likely see more uprisings in europe. protesting has just started. 

[Distortedreasoning]

3 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

It’s pretty obvious.

yes i know. 

[NewBluntsworth]

8 minutes ago, Sieg67 said:

You're completely ignoring the other countries who have helped.  We're not the only ones supporting Ukraine.
I don't know what Russian propaganda sites you've been frequenting but it's utterly and completely brainwashing you.

You've fallen victim to Putin's propaganda machine.

Yes, this is how imperialism works. A whole coalition of countries joined us in invading the middle east after September 11, France and all of them in NATO were with us on taking out Gaddafi and ruining Libya forever, the presence of these other countries doesn't somehow make it not a war of imperialism, in fact the # of other countries that always go along with the US in its global warmongering is a testament to our place as the global hegemon, the only real empire left on the face of the Earth. 

Oh, but no, this time it's special. This time, we're right and good in all that we're doing and not at all setting the region up for decades of war-torn hell. All the tubby white men safe in America and Britain and wherever the fuck seem very sure of it this time!

Edited September 25, 2022 by NewBluntsworth

[NewBluntsworth]

41 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

defense really?

lets ask libya.

Crickets. 

[NewBluntsworth]

59 minutes ago, PenguinBoss said:

 

Literally 20 minutes apart. I honestly don't know how you can complain about straw men and people not reading unironically.

What's the issue here...?

Pointing out the double standard that exists because of the strength of the American empire which is immune to international law and never faces any repercussions for any of its crimes and illegal invasions which have killed countless millions just in the lifespan of all these 50-something year old tubby white Americans clamoring for still more death at the hands of American weapons is...bad, somehow? 

"You're saying that Putin should get away with doing something that America and its allies do all the time, why would you want a peaceful resolution to the war instead of cheerleading our empire as it subjects the region to 'Global Justice, American Style!' Why that's outrageous, it's immoral! ...Me? You're goddamn right I'm rooting for the American war machine in this instance! Why no, of course I'm not an imperialist, I don't think any invasions of sovereign nations should be allowed and I wholeheartedly stand with the American empire in its firm commitment to policing this fake international norm that never applies to itself! World War 3? Nuclear annihilation? Small potatoes when we're trying to enforce some friggin international law over here! My imperial govt and media breathlessly insist that the very concept of national sovereignty is suddenly at stake!!1!!1!!!1!"

That about sum you up? Where'd I miss?

Edited September 25, 2022 by NewBluntsworth