Jeff Harris shares his extensive thoughts on the state of Toonami

[Sketch]

This man is the reason I host a Toonami podcast and he's still got it.

Part 1 https://t.co/BaO0xHPQ15 (a relatively short introduction)

Part 2 https://t.co/MEIuJmnDVh

Part 3 https://t.co/tgjgqSu0mn

 

[PokeNirvash]

I hate to be that guy and do this to you, but... TL;DR?

[Sketch]

28 minutes ago, PokeNirvash said:

I hate to be that guy and do this to you, but... TL;DR?

"Considering the marketplace isn’t the same as it was a dozen years ago, it’s better than it has any business being, but there is a lot of room for improvement."

If you really want some bullet points of the things he brought up... I mean you can probably guess what they are can't you?

The network has faith in Toonami and will continue to create original series for it and acquire shows when they can.

It's much harder to get acquisitions because distributors have their own platforms to support.

Toonami has to go after the most recognizable names because that's what the network believes people will watch.

Nostalgia sells and it works for Toonami but they can't rely entirely upon nostalgia.

Rewind airing the uncut HD versions of shows instead of the old edited tapes only makes sense.

Airing subbed Rick & Morty: The Anime on Toonami isn't a good idea but doing that with Suicide Squad Isekai would have been.

Cartoon Network is in a worrisome state but it too is not going off the air any time soon.

Probably the most interesting point he brought up is that Toonami's future probably incorporates more western animation.

I'm going to keep these paragraphs as is because I find them particularly worth reading:

"It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if by some twist of fate, Toonami would become the home of Get Jiro, an action-comedy series based on a Vertigo comic created by the late world traveler and culinary guru Anthony Bourdain, or Super Mutant Magic Academy, a fantasy comedy series based on Jillian Tamaki’s comic series and co-created by J.G. Quintel. If My Adventures with Superman, Rick & Morty: The Anime, and Invincible Fight Girl are any indication, Toonami’s lineup is going to be a hybrid of all sorts of original stories with action/adventure overtones ranging from heavy dramas to comic-inspired projects. 

Perhaps that’s the goal of the future of the block. Present it not so much as the animated equivalent to Shonen Jump but rather the animation equivalent of WEBTOON, Weekly episodic stories that meshes hybrid styles and influences and attracts all audiences while still bringing a variety of action programs as opposed to “just anime.” We're literally seeing the Adult Swim brand grow up with shows like Common Side Effects being what many of my friends call "an HBO-quality series" as a potential dramatic breakout when it premieres and actually being, well, adult instead of the edgelord frat boy humor that has been the norm for over 20 years. 

Maybe we’re finally about to see a version of Toonami that we’ve never truly seen before. A better cartoon show. They’re working with what they have to create something audiences have never seen. 

They’re not getting rid of anime by any stretch, but it is nice to see Toonami build up a format that embraces and showcases voices beyond Japan."

[Toonamiguy321]

2 hours ago, Sketch said:

"Considering the marketplace isn’t the same as it was a dozen years ago, it’s better than it has any business being, but there is a lot of room for improvement."

The only market change they are contending with is CR pulling their stuff off the table. There are 3 other major distributors they could be pulling from. And they choose not to. You can blame the market for why the block doesn’t have top billing Jump shows year round, but you can’t blame it for the frequent voids in content. 
 

2 hours ago, Sketch said:

The network has faith in Toonami and will continue to create original series for it and acquire shows when they can.

They claim this, yet the budget does not reflect this. And with Rick on Thursday’s and the more marketable Uzumaki on next Thursdays, that doesn’t show much faith. Until we see a schedule that reflects the claim, the “faith” is lip service 

2 hours ago, Sketch said:

It's much harder to get acquisitions because distributors have their own platforms to support.

Toonami has to go after the most recognizable names because that's what the network believes people will watch.

Both wrong and just excuses for Demarco’s laziness when it comes to researching content. Let’s not forget just a few months prior, he didn’t even know Urusei Yatsura had a new season. 
 

2 hours ago, Sketch said:

Nostalgia sells and it works for Toonami but they can't rely entirely upon nostalgia.

No it doesn’t and it never has. Every time they nostalgiabait, it bites them in the ass. We are seeing it in real time with Rewind flopping out. If people want to rewatch something, they are gonna do so by choosing the best episodes of something and skipping the rest. 
 

2 hours ago, Sketch said:

Airing subbed Rick & Morty: The Anime on Toonami isn't a good idea but doing that with Suicide Squad Isekai would have been.

For 11 years they told us subs were an absolute never ever because that’s the ultimate trigger for channel changing and I have no idea why they suddenly think that has changed. Rick might flop a little more since it looks like wet ass, but it doesn’t matter what it is, if it’s subbed, it’s doomed. 
 

2 hours ago, Sketch said:

Present it not so much as the animated equivalent to Shonen Jump but rather the animation equivalent of WEBTOON,

Oh boy, I can’t wait till reach the point of airing “what the FUCK is my mom doing with that artichoke!?!?” webtoon slop. 
 

Sure, more western stuff is coming in, but these days, what do western action animation titles have in common? Oh right, mimicking anime in every way they possibly can. I think people would prefer actual anime over the cheap knockoffs. Call it an action animation block all you want, people are here for the anime, and the less of that there is, the less people will tune in. 
 

Anyway, I’ll give him credit here, he tried. He at the very minimum, acknowledged there is a problem with the block. But that’s where it stops. No acknowledgment of the actual problems, just a nice, safe excuse real so Demarco doesn’t block him and cut off access. No doubt Demarco will at least retweet this with his usual “muh 25 years I no wat I’m doin”, but that will be it. 
 

Put a mic in front of Colt and let him rip. He is willing to make the real statements and not dance around the issues. 

[PokeNirvash]

...Okay, so who here wants to use the rest of the wishes on my monkey's paw?

[Jman]

Mr. Harris isn't coming out of nowhere with these ideas.  He's been watching this block pre-foundation of Adult Swim.  And for all that history, he has been fairly consistent with the idea that he believes Toonami is an action block, not an anime block.  He was the one standing up for things like the 2003 Masters of the Universe when even DeMarco felt like his arm was being twisted to air it.  

The problem is that for a lot of the stuff, Toonami isn't getting the best action stuff from Max.  Instead of Suicide Squad Isekai and the upcoming Creature Commandos, it's stuck airing Kinnikuman But Boring, and a Rick and Morty spinoff that probably made more sense two seasons ago when Rickamania was at its peak and running wild all over the internet.  At the very least, they should have dragged in the current voice actors. 

Nostalgia for what it's worth is also a fickle thing, due once again to the rise of streaming.  Reminding people shows exist will more often than not have them go to places they don't have to wait on the network's schedule.  I think that's also part of the reason that MeTV Toons has seen success, the material there is interchangeable, not serialized.  

It's clear that the block isn't dead at this point, MAWS, despite its contentious take on the Man of Steel, has done pretty well with its main demographic, but a lot of the newer shows are getting the bulk of their viewership from Max, not Toonami.  

[Jman]

The biggest issue remains that Warner’s siloed content means that DeMarco lacks the resources a Netflix has.  DeMarco can’t snap his fingers and get Sakamoto Days.

 

[brianycpht]

I agree that Crunchyroll being assholes doesn’t equal “we can’t get any anime”

it would just require working with other distributors to find shows they think will work with the block. 

 

Just because you can’t get the most popular shows doesn’t mean you default to airing nothing 

[[classic swim]]

Jeff Harris is 380-450 pounds and goes to all you can eat buffets.

[brianycpht]

Just now, [classic swim] said:

Jeff Harris is 380-450 pounds and goes to all you can eat buffets.

That’s a little uncalled for.  No need for personal attacks even if you disagree with the article 

[[classic swim]]

Just now, brianycpht said:

That’s a little uncalled for.  No need for personal attacks even if you disagree with the article 

“Personal attacks” because his whole identity has been being a weird dick to random people on the internet over pointless things and maybe him and his gargantuan gut doesn’t need the ego boost.

[brianycpht]

3 minutes ago, [classic swim] said:

“Personal attacks” because his whole identity has been being a weird dick to random people on the internet over pointless things and maybe him and his gargantuan gut doesn’t need the ego boost.

Sounds like you’ve had some issues with him in the past. I’ve had my share of run ins with people  in the fandom.  Not sure what happened with you, but you deserve to be treated fairly as we all are 

Makes more sense now as to why you said what you said. Hope you’re able to work it out 

Edited July 31 by brianycpht

[[classic swim]]

2 minutes ago, brianycpht said:

Sounds like you’ve had some issues with him in the past. I’ve had my share of run ins with people  in the fandom.  Not sure what happened with you, but you deserve to be treated fairly as we all are 

Makes more sense now as to why you said what you said. Hope you’re able to work it out 

It doesn’t fully matter to me if people like me or not.

If I’m an asshole I’ll just be blunt and say it. He doesn’t need his own thread and him wanting to be treated like a fucking messiah and guru of Japanese cartooning is just plain nasty to me on a level of self respect.

He might pay to have threads like these made but he’s not a god. I appreciate you implying that my word could possibly matter because in his odd manboyish world only his word matters. 

[Toonamiguy321]

1 hour ago, [classic swim] said:

It doesn’t fully matter to me if people like me or not.

If I’m an asshole I’ll just be blunt and say it. He doesn’t need his own thread and him wanting to be treated like a fucking messiah and guru of Japanese cartooning is just plain nasty to me on a level of self respect.

He might pay to have threads like these made but he’s not a god. I appreciate you implying that my word could possibly matter because in his odd manboyish world only his word matters. 

Regardless of his gut size, he seems to be one of the only people willing to offer any form of criticism towards the block. As a dissected in my post, it’s mostly mislead and roundabout as to not directly implicate the actual causes, but it’s rare to see anyone of note actually stand up and say the block isn’t in the best place. I do agree though, he does a quick heel turn when Demarco gives us an inch, after taking a couple miles, and gets abrasive towards people who said the block isn’t doing enough. 
 

The only other mouth willing to criticize the block is AmbientVirus/Colt. However, he will go straight for the REAL problems, so they do their best to keep him away from a mic since he will get Toonami Faithful blacklisted by Demarco. 
 

IMO the worst gaslighter of them all is CJ. Demarco literally told us, from his own mouth, that Demon Slayer would never air again. We get Demon Slayer again, and CJ accuses the fanbase of spreading rumors it would never air again. 

[brianycpht]

34 minutes ago, Toonamiguy321 said:

Regardless of his gut size, he seems to be one of the only people willing to offer any form of criticism towards the block. As a dissected in my post, it’s mostly mislead and roundabout as to not directly implicate the actual causes, but it’s rare to see anyone of note actually stand up and say the block isn’t in the best place. I do agree though, he does a quick heel turn when Demarco gives us an inch, after taking a couple miles, and gets abrasive towards people who said the block isn’t doing enough. 
 

The only other mouth willing to criticize the block is AmbientVirus/Colt. However, he will go straight for the REAL problems, so they do their best to keep him away from a mic since he will get Toonami Faithful blacklisted by Demarco. 
 

IMO the worst gaslighter of them all is CJ. Demarco literally told us, from his own mouth, that Demon Slayer would never air again. We get Demon Slayer again, and CJ accuses the fanbase of spreading rumors it would never air again. 

Spot on. It really doesn’t help to gaslight the fanbase of being fear mongers when we were just going by what Demarco said. The real issue is that he said what he said. 
 

Basically any opinion from a person who doesn’t “work in TV” is deemed invalid and he openly states he doesn’t want to hear it. Doesn’t want to hear about ratings, schedule speculation, relationships with distributors. It kind of takes all the fun out of the discussion when you don’t do those things. I never found it offensive. It can’t always be rainbows and sunshine 

Edited July 31 by brianycpht

[Sketch]

CJ has fallen off the face of the internet. I’m honestly a bit concerned about his headspace.

No ire should be directed at Jeff for this thread and he certainly didn’t pay me to draw attention to it.

I felt his three part editorial was better suited to a separate discussion than tossing it into one of the current news threads. Pretty sure he’s not obese either but that’s neither here nor there.

[[classic swim]]

It’s your thread and that’s your boy. He’s still a bitch but you were loyal and passionate to share his stuff. 

[Otakuninja9000]

On 7/31/2024 at 6:57 AM, Jman said:

Kinnikuman But Boring

Can you please STFU with that? Why can't both of them be entertaining? Because one's from the US?

 

21 hours ago, brianycpht said:

That’s a little uncalled for.  No need for personal attacks even if you disagree with the article 

Yeah, and that's just mean. Especially coming from the person who has "scoobdog eats A$S and PU$$Y" as his literal fucking signature.

 

13 hours ago, Sketch said:

CJ has fallen off the face of the internet. I’m honestly a bit concerned about his headspace.

No ire should be directed at Jeff for this thread and he certainly didn’t pay me to draw attention to it.

I felt his three part editorial was better suited to a separate discussion than tossing it into one of the current news threads. Pretty sure he’s not obese either but that’s neither here nor there.

Right. And Harris is right that the block should focus less on anime. All because you can't overrated shonen slop that's not even as "WOW!" as older anime, that doesn't mean you have to resort to airing crappy reruns and Naruto/One Piece doubles en masse. If WB had a brain, Toonami would literally be their anime/action animation division by now.

 

If I was in charge of WB, I'd make an IMMEDIATE executive order to pull all of our Japanese wares from every streaming service and move them all to Max and Toonami AND give Toonami a weekday/weeknight block on Adult Swim. Oh, and I'd start dubbing our anime ourselves using Sentai's VAs and WBA VAs. However, preexisting dubs continue as normal.

13 hours ago, [classic swim] said:

It’s your thread and that’s your boy. He’s still a bitch but you were loyal and passionate to share his stuff. 

Can you kinda not just do this for nothing?

[[classic swim]]

22 minutes ago, Otakuninja9000 said:

Can you kinda not just do this for nothing?

Jeff Harris is going to be okay. He’s not in danger from me saying anything nasty. He’ll be alright.

[[classic swim]]

35 minutes ago, Otakuninja9000 said:

Yeah, and that's just mean. Especially coming from the person who has "scoobdog eats A$S and PU$$Y" as his literal fucking signature.

Also lol cannot believe I missed this but then again big fucking wall.

Scoob’s my friend. He’s someone I love greatly. I wince at this folder but you know I participate in all the others just fine because I don’t hyperventilate on this shit.

Thanks for taking an inside joke seriously though. Well done.

[Jman]

42 minutes ago, Otakuninja9000 said:

Can you please STFU with that? Why can't both of them be entertaining? Because one's from the US?

I don't subscribe to the idea that geographic origin or nationality makes someone's work inherently superior or inferior.  That's ridiculous and it always has been.  What annoys me is that the few action shows we do seem to be getting from people not named Genndy Tartatovsky or made by a comic book publisher try to imitate anime, and then do a piss-poor job at it because they get rid of the style and the edges to make something blander, uglier, and more boring.

The first episode of the show is available online in certain pockets.  It's not worth defending.  Especially when the action is so choppy, the designs don't work, and the whole thing feels like it was done by someone who watched five seconds of an anime, thought it was "probLEMaTIc!" and thought they could do better.  The designs are bleh, the premise is stupid and not in a funny way, and the action doesn't work.  This when we have perfectly fine Western animation that's hoarded on Max.  I don't see this being an article if it's all bad - 

 

 

I think this is why I was talking up Creature Commandos so much.  Because it looks different, and it has big names and big talent working on it.  The sort of thing that gets attention.

[Otakuninja9000]

oh.....

[PokeNirvash]

My issue with "Kinnikuman but Boring", personally, is that it's too lengthy to make regular use out of. If I'm gonna dig a show I don't care much for through nomenclature, it's gotta be derisive and concise, like Shittoki or Mayo Punch.

[Mr. Idea Box]

44 minutes ago, PokeNirvash said:

My issue with "Kinnikuman but Boring", personally, is that it's too lengthy to make regular use out of. If I'm gonna dig a show I don't care much for through nomenclature, it's gotta be derisive and concise, like Shittoki or Mayo Punch.

Why not call it "Wrestlemournia"? Or would that not be concise enough?

[Jman]

54 minutes ago, PokeNirvash said:

My issue with "Kinnikuman but Boring", personally, is that it's too lengthy to make regular use out of. If I'm gonna dig a show I don't care much for through nomenclature, it's gotta be derisive and concise, like Shittoki or Mayo Punch.

Well there’s the tried and tested “Flop Girl,” “Invisible Ratings Girl,” and “One Season Girl”.

For more specific insults, in addition to that one, we have “Tony Khan books Tiger Mask W,” and “Adult Swim Midcard”.

[Mr. Idea Box]

2 minutes ago, Jman said:

Well there’s the tried and tested “Flop Girl,” “Invisible Ratings Girl,” and “One Season Girl”.

For more specific insults, in addition to that one, we have “Tony Khan books Tiger Mask W,” and “Adult Swim Midcard”.

It's like we all expect IFG to only get that one season, like with Warriors Eternal. I'm pretty sure it's just on the wrong network, the show itself has some promise.

[Jman]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Idea Box said:

It's like we all expect IFG to only get that one season, like with Warriors Eternal. I'm pretty sure it's just on the wrong network, the show itself has some promise.

I admit I wouldn’t be as hard on it if not for three things -

Being on Adult Swim.

Not having an original art style.

Being introduced the same time Kinnikuman Perfect Origin is airing on Netflix.  Compare the match in the preview of IFG to the Terryman vs Max Radial fight that’s the opener of the new season.  It’s not a fair comparison.

If you’re going to do an original art style wrestling show for kids and families, then you have some freedom, because at that point it’s an artistic expression.  If you’re going to deliberately imitate anime, well, between Kinnikuman and Tiger Mask W, what does this show have that those don’t? 
 

The worst that happened with Unicorn was being a kids show that followed Primal, arguably Genndy’s most pure artistic expression in a show, and something so popular The Simpsons riffed on it.  Big shoes to fill to put it mildly.

Edited August 2 by Jman

[Sketch]

On 7/30/2024 at 9:02 PM, Toonamiguy321 said:

Put a mic in front of Colt and let him rip. He is willing to make the real statements and not dance around the issues. 

I guess I’ll give the people what they want

 

[brianycpht]

Just now, Sketch said:

I guess I’ll give the people what they want

 

Please record it!! I’ll try to listen live though 

[Sketch]

Tune in and harass us in the chat!

You can listen to the whole 2 hours of rambling and ranting here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2215244229

Edited August 4 by Sketch

[OwlChemist81]

2 hours ago, Sketch said:

Tune in and harass us in the chat!

You can listen to the whole 2 hours of rambling and ranting here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2215244229

Good discussion! One thing that gets a little lost in the shuffle is that R&MTA and Uzumaki are 2024 shows, while Demon Slayer: Swordsmith Village Arc is a 2023 show. So that might explain why they air earlier?

[Sketch]

41 minutes ago, OwlChemist81 said:

Good discussion! One thing that gets a little lost in the shuffle is that R&MTA and Uzumaki are 2024 shows, while Demon Slayer: Swordsmith Village Arc is a 2023 show. So that might explain why they air earlier?

They primarily air earlier because they’re originals but Swordsmith being older is also a factor.

[brianycpht]

One of my biggest gripes is that they hold out space and budget for the “big” shows that don’t necessarily do much better for them than anything else and by the time they air they are months or years old 

These shows are also on Netflix/Hulu after a CR exclusive window and I also think that inflates the prices for them. So now Toonami gets a third window after having to wait even longer. The problem with this approach also is that the shows are on numerous platforms and the people who wanted to see them have many better options to see then. Not everyone has CR, but many have Netflix or Hulu and for a “general audience” those avenues are how they are being reached. They are also well known to casual anime watchers and once a week on a late night cache block isn’t the best option 

Many of the Sentai shows do not have this problem and aren’t as well known. To the programming executives this seems like a riskier proposition, but Toonami has an opportunity to show these lesser known shows and it gives the audience something that isn’t already all over the place. When they first started, they and ASA had to go this route. Eventuality once they could afford the higher tier shows, it seems nothing else was ever considered- even now that they aren’t accessible. It seems it’s “super popular show” or nothing at all for them. This was great in 2015-2019 when Funimation would give them the newest things- but it’s not feasible anymore 

If they partnered with SENTAI, they’d at least show something different and have more options to fill the block and avoid the long stretches of nothing 

[Toonamiguy321]

22 hours ago, Sketch said:

Tune in and harass us in the chat!

You can listen to the whole 2 hours of rambling and ranting here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2215244229

You give me exactly what I want the one weekend where I wasn’t home. No matter, still a good listen even if I missed my chance to participate. 
 

Part of me wonders how hands on Demarco even is anymore on acquisitions. Obviously someone had to be doing it, but it also feels like it’s kinda on autopilot for sequels or “it’s everywhere” shows like Zom. 
 

Aside from Rick subs, right now I don’t feel like any show could fall below the current floor of around 140k at midnight. We had Demon Slayer up there earlier in the year pulling down a 160-180k average. Give me a hat with Sentai action titles from the past 10 years and I’ll draw, and I’ll bet whatever I pull out could do equivalent or better at midnight. At the added bonus of being substantially cheaper. 
 

At this point, the question is, does whoever is in charge of Toonami WANT to improve it? Or are they OK with just coasting it along as a home for originals and CNs rejects? I have a growing fear the latter is the goal, and they will just occasionally pick a cherry off the tree for us so no one can claim they are going hungry. 

[brianycpht]

2 hours ago, Toonamiguy321 said:

You give me exactly what I want the one weekend where I wasn’t home. No matter, still a good listen even if I missed my chance to participate. 
 

Part of me wonders how hands on Demarco even is anymore on acquisitions. Obviously someone had to be doing it, but it also feels like it’s kinda on autopilot for sequels or “it’s everywhere” shows like Zom. 
 

Aside from Rick subs, right now I don’t feel like any show could fall below the current floor of around 140k at midnight. We had Demon Slayer up there earlier in the year pulling down a 160-180k average. Give me a hat with Sentai action titles from the past 10 years and I’ll draw, and I’ll bet whatever I pull out could do equivalent or better at midnight. At the added bonus of being substantially cheaper. 
 

At this point, the question is, does whoever is in charge of Toonami WANT to improve it? Or are they OK with just coasting it along as a home for originals and CNs rejects? I have a growing fear the latter is the goal, and they will just occasionally pick a cherry off the tree for us so no one can claim they are going hungry. 

My fear is that the block is “doing fine” because it’s not costing them much for what they are getting in return. Whenever they start stacking the lineup, there is always a cutback because I think it’s too much money spent and not enough return on investment. 2019 was the extreme example of this 

[PokeNirvash]

2019 had so many new shows it kinda fucked our expectations ever since. Personally, I'm amazed how many shows were announced and premiered between Demon Slayer's own announcement and its block premiere...

Edited August 5 by PokeNirvash

[OwlChemist81]

5 hours ago, PokeNirvash said:

2019 had so many new shows it kinda fucked our expectations ever since. Personally, I'm amazed how many shows were announced and premiered between Demon Slayer's own announcement and its block premiere...

...and the fact that it premiered at 1:30 AM? In fact, the original run eventually got moved up to 12:30 AM, but never actually aired at midnight, as somehow MHA Reruns got that timeslot during 2020 COVID hell! Ironically, the Swordsmith Village Arc is kinda destined to follow in those footsteps, since the last 4 episodes are fated to air at 1 AM.