Toonami Shifting To Midnight And Chopping A Half-Hour Off on April 18th

[HardcoreHunter]

The characters hit just about every sue/stu checkbox there is. You can even run a checklist down tv tropes and they'll hit most of them. In the case of Yuuki she hits nearly every box. Kirito ends up being one in the anime more due to plot omission. Especially in season 1 when he's just shown sleeping in fields, then being able to tank 6 people at once because he can heal faster than they can damage him. That is very sue/stu levels. Not to mention he was going to just beat the endgame, but only lost because Heathcliff the creator of the game cheated. They even had to make it clear at the end that he cheated, that that "Oh Kirito you're the best player ever uwu, I couldn't afford for my plan to fail at that point because you're so fucking cool and amazing uwu".   Then lets go into the Gun game. Oh swords those are meme weapons, nobody can actually main a sword. "omg kirito your now the best player in the game and you only just learned about mounts uwu". The only one where he didn't act like a complete stu was when he was praising the sue and saying she'd have been more of a sue than he could ever stu, then she dies. The characters aren't really there for their depth, they're meant to be inserts for edgy teens wanting everyone to like them. 

The fact that it was a santa event dealing with a heavy subject and stakes like that is what made it comical. We could have had an easter egg hunt, and MMO Boss Jesus would climb off his cross and beat Kirito with it, with the stakes being life or death. None of it being portrayed for laughs. Kirito stabs Jesus to death and gains his resurrection.  It would still be funny due to how tone deafly absurd its being.  I mean fucking look at this. It's like the damn attack on titan cover, but festive. 

I think it goes without saying that the LNs are better. Though it's within context of fleshing out the characters and actually having things make sense. Like when Liz had her big ted talk about how poorly they're treated irl since they escaped SAO. That would have been interesting to actually develop. A lot of their IRL stuff would really help make sense of things. Like it just seemed really stupid at first that after spending years in a virtual hunger games. That they would instantly dive back into another game. It helps buy that when you realize that their real lives actually kinda suck and they're treated like living test subjects by their govt, and people distance themselves form them. Though what we get is Liz giving a deep speech, to Asuna having a gurlz slumber party with some npc gushing about how they love their potato. That's all just tone deaf story telling and it makes these serious moments comical.  As for Eugo I've only ever seen him as an NPC in this. He had no defining character traits to me other than being a weaker blonde kirito that isn't as skilled. 

[ben0119]

On 4/17/2020 at 12:34 AM, mochi said:

honestly......everything probbably killed the hollywood adaption

the racism, the sexism, the homophobia, the INCEST, the extremely incorrect depiction of AIDS, 

There's no racism, sexism, or homophobia in the series.  You are being hyperbolic and claiming things that aren't there so you can bitch more, as usual.  With the incest, for what it's worth, it didn't fully go anywhere, and Suguha didn't know that the guy she was crushing on was her brother and Kirito didn't know the player he was teaming up with was his sister, either.  Though all he had to do was go in his sister's room and look up at the Leafa poster that was up there.  Hell, I even advocated for Suguha to be kicked out of the house!  Then someone back then told me Kirito didn't have the moral authority to do that since he killed people in SAO, although they were psychotic player killers.  The AIDS thing was a bit eh, I will agree on that, though technically possible, Reki probably should have used something else, though in my opinion I was glad her disease was actually mentioned and explained, than Yuuki dying of the usual mysterious "anime-itis."

I had figured and hoped that since the adaptation would be written by a woman with something of a resume, although she spoke quite highly of Reki, things like the rape and incest would be omitted and other issues could be smoothed over and the writing in general buffed up.  They would also have a lot of creative freedom and mileage they could gain out of the show just staying with the Aincrad Arc and fleshing it out more, since so many of the floors and time there was not shown.  There is all sorts of adventures they could have come up with.  They wouldn't even have to touch the Fairy Dance Arc and indeed it should be left out entirely, though they would have to find another way to introduce Suguha, if it is deemed she is so vital to the series.  Maybe just stick her in Aincrad with all the other players.  There are tons of options they could use.  If and when they want to want to cover the Mother's Rosario Arc, they could swap out Yuuki's disease for something else.  Simply saying she has some form of cancer would be work well enough.  They also vowed that the series would not be white-washed and Kirito and Asuna would be played by Asian actors.    If the series really isn't ever going to happen then that is quite a shame.

Edited April 30, 2020 by ben0119

[ben0119]

On 4/17/2020 at 2:17 AM, Top Gun said:

Y'know the part that pisses me off the most about that whole storyline is how the entire family gets infected with HIV from...a blood transfusion.  A blood transfusion that would have taken place somewhere in the mid-to-late 2000s based on the series' timeline, long after first-world countries had comprehensive screening of donated blood with an extremely low rate of false negatives (we're talking a literal one-in-a-million shot, if not even rarer).  And I don't even remember what bullshit excuse they came up with as to why the HIV infection immediately escalated to superAIDS, when if the donor was recognized as being HIV-positive they could have easily traced past usages of the donated blood and had the family start antiretroviral treatments.  The fact that Kawahara went with such a ridiculously-improbable premise completely destroyed any suspension of disbelief I might have had and made that arc feel like a farce...of course he's an expert at that, so I was hardly surprised.  Oh, and that's not even getting into how massively fucking irresponsible it is to cast aspersions on the safety of blood transfusions when it's hard enough as-is to get people motivated to donate.  Fuck off, Kawahara.

I believe it was said that Yuuki either didn't respond to the medicine, or the strain she got was an especially resistant strain.  And yeah a freak blood transfusion accident.  All of this would be exceedingly rare and unlikely, if not unheard of.  I don't know why Reki didn't just say Yuuki has some form of cancer and leave it at that.  But would you have preferred Yuuki to be dying of the usual mysterious "anime-itis?"

[ben0119]

On 4/17/2020 at 5:48 AM, PokeNirvash said:

SAO'S COUNTLESS FLAWS IN A NUTSHELL

Reputable Source: Fair warning, this arc of SAO has [insert disturbing/grossly inaccurate scene here].
/a/: Pssh, you're bluffing! It can't be that bad...
You Guys: Oh god, this sounds awful and poorly written. What fresh hell awaits us?
Myself: I instantly believe you, but I think I can handle it.
SAO: [shows disturbing/grossly inaccurate scene previously mentioned]
/a/: Oh fuck, it really is that bad. [insert reaction image here]
You Guys: Oh dear god it's worse than I ever imagined! Fuck you, SAO!
Myself: [shrugs] Well whaddaya know, I managed to handle it. Let's see you do better next time.

Sometimes I surprise myself with how much bullshit I can take before reaching the point where my extremely flexible suspension of disbelief just snaps.

I don't know about all that.  I didn't see SAO as being that bad.  And I never really found myself taken out of the show.

Though generally, maybe it is a my years of watching wrestling that has made me more forgiving of subpar and bad writing and tasteless things being done.

[ben0119]

1 hour ago, HardcoreHunter said:

The characters hit just about every sue/stu checkbox there is. You can even run a checklist down tv tropes and they'll hit most of them. In the case of Yuuki she hits nearly every box. Kirito ends up being one in the anime more due to plot omission. Especially in season 1 when he's just shown sleeping in fields, then being able to tank 6 people at once because he can heal faster than they can damage him. That is very sue/stu levels. Not to mention he was going to just beat the endgame, but only lost because Heathcliff the creator of the game cheated. They even had to make it clear at the end that he cheated, that that "Oh Kirito you're the best player ever uwu, I couldn't afford for my plan to fail at that point because you're so fucking cool and amazing uwu".   Then lets go into the Gun game. Oh swords those are meme weapons, nobody can actually main a sword. "omg kirito your now the best player in the game and you only just learned about mounts uwu". The only one where he didn't act like a complete stu was when he was praising the sue and saying she'd have been more of a sue than he could ever stu, then she dies. The characters aren't really there for their depth, they're meant to be inserts for edgy teens wanting everyone to like them. 

The fact that it was a santa event dealing with a heavy subject and stakes like that is what made it comical. We could have had an easter egg hunt, and MMO Boss Jesus would climb off his cross and beat Kirito with it, with the stakes being life or death. None of it being portrayed for laughs. Kirito stabs Jesus to death and gains his resurrection.  It would still be funny due to how tone deafly absurd its being.  I mean fucking look at this. It's like the damn attack on titan cover, but festive. 

I think it goes without saying that the LNs are better. Though it's within context of fleshing out the characters and actually having things make sense. Like when Liz had her big ted talk about how poorly they're treated irl since they escaped SAO. That would have been interesting to actually develop. A lot of their IRL stuff would really help make sense of things. Like it just seemed really stupid at first that after spending years in a virtual hunger games. That they would instantly dive back into another game. It helps buy that when you realize that their real lives actually kinda suck and they're treated like living test subjects by their govt, and people distance themselves form them. Though what we get is Liz giving a deep speech, to Asuna having a gurlz slumber party with some npc gushing about how they love their potato. That's all just tone deaf story telling and it makes these serious moments comical.  As for Eugo I've only ever seen him as an NPC in this. He had no defining character traits to me other than being a weaker blonde kirito that isn't as skilled. 

Sleeping in fields but it was also clearly shown that Kirito was a beta tester for the game and also a shut-in gamer nerd with years of experience playing MMORPGs and games in general.  He was also shown to be leveling on his own.  He had a health regen skill, a very well-known and run of the mill RPG ability...  No that is not what happened.  Kirito and Asuna both died to take out Heathcliff at the end, only surviving due to Kayaba sparing them as a reward for beating the game, or the game ending and the world being discontinued immediately after the battle.  I think it would be more over-powered for Kirito to be good at using the guns.  Instead he used the guns as a side weapons and used what knew, swords, to play the game, which he had plenty of experience with.  Obviously most people playing a gun-based game aren't going to bother with swords or take the time to be good at them.  I doubt there was even that much crossover between the two audiences of such games.

I saw the Santa boss as being more demented and freaky, than outright comical.  And I mean, there have been plenty of times in shows where characters are tormented by ridiculous looking and acting characters.  Now you are just being over the top.

Yeah that definitely would have been better if more of that stuff was shown.  We did get ideas about in SAO II, with the special school and Asuna saying "Kirito is still playing SAO," of course the players PTSD and Kirito having to rehab after coming out of SAO.  But yeah probably not to the degree it should have been.  Eh I again disagree on that.  Moments of levity are needed and everything can't be depressing all the time.  Even Attack on Titan, that you mentioned, had comedy in it.  There's not really much we can do to argue on liking a character or not.  Someone either likes a character or they don't.  I thought Eugeo had plenty of screen time and development in the series, definitely defining character traits and personality.  He is one of the better done characters in the series, in my opinion.  And I found it heartbreaking when he failed to fully reunite with Alice and then ended up dying.

Finally again I will stress that Gary Stu/Mary Sue is an idiotic term that I would love to never hear uttered again.  And TV Tropes is a fucking stupid site that people put way too much stock in.  People refer to it and use the terms as shorthand, a lot of times people just end up spewing a slew of trendy buzzwords to make up for not really having any substantive argument at all.  You say Kirito being a Gary Stu *blegh* is by plot omission, and I say it is by people omitting various scenes where Kirito was shown to have earned his abilities, and also his flaws and weaknesses and failings.  There were multiple times where Kirito froze up in battle, like the time when those army guys were fighting the boss that was too strong for them, and Klein and Asuna went in to fight it, it again happened in the fight with Administrator.  Kirito clearly has PTSD and trauma from his past experiences, mental health issues and emotional weaknesses.  But because someone is skilled at something, those flaws get ignored, a very simpleton way of looking at things.  It's not all about skill and physical strength, which again, was shown how Kirito got where he was but is conveniently ignored by people who want to bash on the series.  As I said, a lot of the time, people just use Mary Sue as shorthand for "competent character I don't like."  It's fine to not like a character or not be into them, but just because someone doesn't like a character doesn't make the character bad, or the story bad. 

I believe with some people it stems from a inferiority complex and resentment of people that are more successful, skilled, talented, and intelligent than they are.  We often see how successful people are vilified in this country.  Someone works hard and studies hard to get to where they are, but because they have more than other people and more respect than other people, these people who were unwilling or unable to achieve such success in their own lives harbor resentment towards them, and say that they were born into what they got or cheated to get what they got, had an unfair advantage, they're good at they do but are simply are assholes, even if they earned it they still don't deserve it etc etc.

And again, it seems very apparent with some people, they believe that if they simply don't like something, that isn't good enough.  The thing they don't like has to be bad for them to feel validated in their opinion and feelings, and so they try to come up with these reasons as to why a particular work is demonstrably and unequivocally bad (if they even go that far, as many prefer to just lean on TV Tropes terms to crit hit win the argument for themselves,) even though art is subjective, and anyone who likes this thing that is CLEARLY BAD CAN'T YOU SEE THAT is has taste cancer, a bad fan or not a real fan if it's a sequel to an already well-regarded property, the people who like the thing they don't like are on the wrong side of history and of art appreciation and criticism, are tantamount to being crazy.  There are plenty of things that I don't like that I can acknowledge are well-made and even good, and I can see the appeal of them.  I would give Mad Men and Joker as examples.  While the look back on the 60s and advertising business at the time is interesting and novel, nostalgic, the characters are scumbags and not really anyone I want to watch for seasons at a time.  Joker is a well-made movie and I would call it good, but it is extremely depressing and disturbing, I felt uncomfortable basically the whole time watching it and wouldn't watch it again.  Maybe that is the intent, either way, I didn't like the movie.  I was just really glad he didn't do anything to the mother and little girl.  But just because I don't like a movie I don't feel the need to exaggerate my importance or validate myself by saying since I don't like something, it must be bad.  I would just say it is not my cup of tea.  Granted, many times these will align for myself and others (though again art is subjective,) but every time?  Ehhh...

[HardcoreHunter]

Kirito fights Heathcliff and gets absorbed into his guild. That is what I'm referring to when Heathcliff cheated. Not the battle him and Asuna had against Heathcliff. Being a beta tester didn't really give him much of a bonus. Everyone claimed it did at the start, but it just let him know what monsters, items, and bosses were on the first 10 floors. After that he didn't know anything more than any other player. The point is in SAO in the anime we don't see anything. It's a visual medium you show don't allude. Show all the big boss fights, don't have them be passing conversation. Show him actually training don't just have him curb stomp other people who are also grinding, but leave it up to the viewer to decide that Kirito must have grinded more.  The problem in the gun game is that Kirito wasn't just able to fend off and barely be able to survive as he was using a default blade weapon that wasn't even rare. Though he was able to just curb stomp other people using guns in a game that gives people with guns an advantage. Kirito should have been full stealth, charlie's in the trees rambo knife mode through that. Not Star Wars episode II deflecting bullets with his lightsaber running down the battle field in the open. Also to top it off he got an ultra rare valuable avatar for no real reason. He's very stu like that. 

How is him fighting Jesus any different than him fighting Saint Nicolas in being over the top? Was it having to find the Easter eggs to unlock the boss battle? It's not creepy it's just tone deaf to the seriousness it's trying to convey and it translates into comedy. 

In your mind what is a sue/stu? Because it's fairly well accepted that Kirito is a stu self insert protagonist. A character freezing up or failing doesn't meant that they aren't a sue/stu. In fact that is what became known as a Gen II sue/stu. A character that "can't" be a sue/stu because they have some sort of flaw or fail. The series is just wish fulfillment self inserts. Your ability to like a character is based on how well you insert yourself onto them. Kirito has all kinda of abilities, a dozen or so girls that want to jump his dick, can go into multiple fantasy video game worlds, is on call with a secret govt organization, Has a big titty cousin/sister that wants his Dick in a country where that kinda thing is legal, Has a wife that overlooks all the girls that are after him, beat an assassin guild, beat up a real life stalker assassin, is top level player in every game we've seen him in.  Though he freezes up sometimes and he needed help from an NPC to beat someone with the literal powers of God, and he gets sad sometimes so he can't be a stu. I don't know if you have noticed the problem there. It's pretty much a power fantasy wetdream for an angsty teen. The comedy comes from how it takes itself serious. There are acceptable levels of being a sue/stu. Every character has to have some of them to be at all competent or likable. Kirito though hits every box possible. 



 

[Daos]

4 hours ago, HardcoreHunter said:

Kirito fights Heathcliff and gets absorbed into his guild. That is what I'm referring to when Heathcliff cheated. Not the battle him and Asuna had against Heathcliff. Being a beta tester didn't really give him much of a bonus. Everyone claimed it did at the start, but it just let him know what monsters, items, and bosses were on the first 10 floors. After that he didn't know anything more than any other player. The point is in SAO in the anime we don't see anything. It's a visual medium you show don't allude. Show all the big boss fights, don't have them be passing conversation. Show him actually training don't just have him curb stomp other people who are also grinding, but leave it up to the viewer to decide that Kirito must have grinded more.  The problem in the gun game is that Kirito wasn't just able to fend off and barely be able to survive as he was using a default blade weapon that wasn't even rare. Though he was able to just curb stomp other people using guns in a game that gives people with guns an advantage. Kirito should have been full stealth, charlie's in the trees rambo knife mode through that. Not Star Wars episode II deflecting bullets with his lightsaber running down the battle field in the open. Also to top it off he got an ultra rare valuable avatar for no real reason. He's very stu like that. 

How is him fighting Jesus any different than him fighting Saint Nicolas in being over the top? Was it having to find the Easter eggs to unlock the boss battle? It's not creepy it's just tone deaf to the seriousness it's trying to convey and it translates into comedy. 

In your mind what is a sue/stu? Because it's fairly well accepted that Kirito is a stu self insert protagonist. A character freezing up or failing doesn't meant that they aren't a sue/stu. In fact that is what became known as a Gen II sue/stu. A character that "can't" be a sue/stu because they have some sort of flaw or fail. The series is just wish fulfillment self inserts. Your ability to like a character is based on how well you insert yourself onto them. Kirito has all kinda of abilities, a dozen or so girls that want to jump his dick, can go into multiple fantasy video game worlds, is on call with a secret govt organization, Has a big titty cousin/sister that wants his Dick in a country where that kinda thing is legal, Has a wife that overlooks all the girls that are after him, beat an assassin guild, beat up a real life stalker assassin, is top level player in every game we've seen him in.  Though he freezes up sometimes and he needed help from an NPC to beat someone with the literal powers of God, and he gets sad sometimes so he can't be a stu. I don't know if you have noticed the problem there. It's pretty much a power fantasy wetdream for an angsty teen. The comedy comes from how it takes itself serious. There are acceptable levels of being a sue/stu. Every character has to have some of them to be at all competent or likable. Kirito though hits every box possible. 



 

You should probably stop now. Ben does not understand the concept of Mary Sues, to the point where he argues the concept doesn't exist. People having unrealistic abilities that they can't possibly have are just signs of being competent to him.

Like when Kirito hacked that Mainframe to save Yui in like 30 seconds flat.

 

[HardcoreHunter]

17 minutes ago, Daos said:

Like when Kirito hacked that Mainframe to save Yui in like 30 seconds flat.

Also we have to think that the novel for this series started in 2002, and Kirito got trapped when he was 14. Motherfucker would be lucky to know how to use ask Jeeves in 2002. To be fair though the story does take place in the distant future year of 2022 despite being written in 2002.