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CountFrylock

Should Anime Dub VA's be paid better?

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11 hours ago, naraku360 said:

No, anime is an art form. Art existed before capitalism. If people can organize to create something, they will. If anything, capitalism ACTIVELY makes it harder to do that. Have you seen the working conditions anime company have? Is that really the only way to create art?

Yeah except anime is a bit different than say...... painting a picture for your own enjoyment at your house. Anime has a fairly high man hour and personnel requirement. The people developing it would have to be working on it as their full time job in order to actually create it. Which means they would need either a company or just some random guy with a lot of money to bankroll the cost of the labor and materials. Someone would have to pay to rent/lease a large work space for all of the artists/VA's/writers. Normally, the company/ rich guy wouldn't be doing this just for fun and would want to sell the finished product in order to either break even or perhaps even make money. 

All this would tend to point to capitalism being a pretty necessary component in this whole process. Would any of the technology even exist to make anime in its modern form without capitalism? Would you just have some random company/ rich guy in a Socialist or Communist Society that wants to fund this kind of thing? Given that non capitalist countries never became known for their thriving animation industries I would lean towards no.

But hey who can forget the good old state sponsored Soviet classics like "Moydodyr" or "The Tale of the Priest and his Workman Baida."  Brought to you courtesy of the Principal Management of the Photocinematographic Industry.

 

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5 minutes ago, Daos said:

Yeah except anime is a bit different than say...... painting a picture for your own enjoyment at your house. Anime has a fairly high man hour and personnel requirement. The people developing it would have to be working on it as their full time job in order to actually create it. Which means they would need either a company or just some random guy with a lot of money to bankroll the cost of the labor and materials. Someone would have to pay to rent/lease a large work space for all of the artists/VA's/writers. Normally, the company/ rich guy wouldn't be doing this just for fun and would want to sell the finished product in order to either break even or perhaps even make money. 

All this would tend to point to capitalism being a pretty necessary component in this whole process. Would any of the technology even exist to make anime in its modern form without capitalism? Would you just have some random company/ rich guy in a Socialist or Communist Society that wants to fund this kind of thing? Given that non capitalist countries never became known for their thriving animation industries I would lean towards no.

But hey who can forget the good old state sponsored Soviet classics like "Moydodyr" or "The Tale of the Priest and his Workman Baida."  Brought to you courtesy of the Principal Management of the Photocinematographic Industry.

 

And cathedrals weren't painted by 1 person. Organization isn't uniquely capitalistic. If it were, I doubt society would have made it to the 1700s to invent capitalism.

A worker co-op would be considered socialist, and those are companies which can and often do operate as full time jobs with greater stability, higher productivity, and better working conditions (more comfortable work environment leading to greater productivity, higher pay, etc) than traditionally capitalist models. These do also exist within capitalist countries, including the US - which isn't Soviet Russia, the last time I checked. There have been plenty of co-ops with financial success.

The only point I'm making is that the economic model used in a country isn't the single determining factor of whether or not something exists. If capitalism didn't exist, that does automatically mean anime wouldn't. We couldn't possibly say it would or wouldn't since it's so far outside the realm of reality.

We had organization structures before, and after, capitalism, so the argument that we need companies to make media is irrelevant since those would exist with or without.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, CountFrylock said:

how do this topic go from "should anime dub va's be paid better?" to "Capitalistic Pig Dogs!"

 

I haven't really said anything anti-capitalist outside of a brief mention of the work conditions.

But apparently "it would probably still exist" is so anti-capitalist that I need to get a sickle and hammer.

Like, "capitalism isn't universally perfect" is such a harsh criticism that half the folder's paperthin skin got mangled.

Edited by naraku360

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8 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

I haven't really said anything anti-capitalist outside of a brief mention of the work conditions.

But apparently "it would probably still exist" is so anti-capitalist that I need to get a sickle and hammer.

Like, "capitalism isn't universally perfect" is such a harsh criticism that half the folder's paperthin skin got mangled.

because Anime is A  Investment(not just in money but time) and requires many people to be on board

it isn't something you just casually do with little thought or effort put into it

it's something that requires a lot of time invested into it and with that time invested....People need to be paid

If You Look At Something Like Spirited Away Or...A More Recent Example Demon Slayer and say "yeah that could still exist without Capitalism"  you are nuts

Artists need to be paid for the time they spent on such projects....

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4 minutes ago, CountFrylock said:

because Anime is A  Investment(not just in money but time) and requires many people to be on board

it isn't something you just casually do with little thought or effort put into it

it's something that requires a lot of time invested into it and with that time invested....People need to be paid

If You Look At Something Like Spirited Away Or...A More Recent Example Demon Slayer and say "yeah that could still exist without Capitalism"  you are nuts

Artists need to be paid for the time they spent on such projects....

And..... you get paid in worker co-ops.

 

 

 

Usually more.

 

Did you read actually anything I said or just decide loose critique=Soviet?

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Posted (edited)

Wait, do you people not understand that markets existed before capitalism? Like non-socialist markets?

What the actual fuck?

Edited by naraku360
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1 hour ago, naraku360 said:

Wait, do you people not understand that markets existed before capitalism? Like non-socialist markets?

What the actual fuck?

Don't tell them that, you'll shatter the illusion.

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1 hour ago, naraku360 said:

Wait, do you people not understand that markets existed before capitalism? Like non-socialist markets?

What the actual fuck?

They don't understand a lot of things.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, naraku360 said:

I'm saying removing those barriers would help to create quality productions. Obviously, we get plenty of quality shows under capitalism. I'm only trying to make the point that it's obviously not the only factor, much less so important thst the industry would cease to exist without it (an insane belief).

I can see that point and I imagine it could work well for occasional productions, but I'm not sure how well the co-op method would work as a large-scale industry standard. I could see a handful of productions managing to come together for a series, but the industry overall probably can't survive off of like, five really well-done shows per year. I do think it'd be a benefit to everyone if shows were being made at once (does anyone really need another half-assed isekai harem anime with cute waifus and a dead horse of a story in any given year?), but obviously not to an unsustainable extent. I don't know enough about Japan's economy or anime production in general to really offer suggestions about how to improve things over there, but I feel like there's no easy answer.

It's kinda way out of my wheelhouse to debate about market systems in general since I'm still failing the "Stop throwing money at Endeavor figures with excessively fat asses" challenge and I'm not entirely sure the above paragraph actually makes a fraction of sense to anyone else.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by EmpressAngel
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9 hours ago, naraku360 said:

And cathedrals weren't painted by 1 person. Organization isn't uniquely capitalistic. If it were, I doubt society would have made it to the 1700s to invent capitalism.

A worker co-op would be considered socialist, and those are companies which can and often do operate as full time jobs with greater stability, higher productivity, and better working conditions (more comfortable work environment leading to greater productivity, higher pay, etc) than traditionally capitalist models. These do also exist within capitalist countries, including the US - which isn't Soviet Russia, the last time I checked. There have been plenty of co-ops with financial success.

The only point I'm making is that the economic model used in a country isn't the single determining factor of whether or not something exists. If capitalism didn't exist, that does automatically mean anime wouldn't. We couldn't possibly say it would or wouldn't since it's so far outside the realm of reality.

We had organization structures before, and after, capitalism, so the argument that we need companies to make media is irrelevant since those would exist with or without.

Well I mean Michelangelo did the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel by himself but it took 4 years.

Why would Co-ops be considered Socialist? Are Ace Hardware and the Green Bay Packers Socialist? Ace Hardware is a highly successful company that functions well in a capitalist society.

Are companies on the stock exchanges Socialist? Millions of people owning small percentages of the company and then voting on various things?

Your definition of Socialism is probably drastically different from mine, Socialism typically refers to a system of government where the means of production are owned by the State. If you and 50 friends want to get together and make an Anime no one's stopping you. That's the great thing about living in a country that has economic freedom, as long as you follow existing labor laws you can pretty much do whatever you want.

Without Capitalist countries its doubtful that the ability to even watch animation would exist. There's a reason almost every technological advance in the last 200 years came from Capitalist countries. How long would it have taken them to invent their own TV's? DVD's? Everything else that made watching anime possible?

Even with their current cutthroat model of maximum efficiency, most Anime studios seem to barely turn a profit and seem to be one bad decision away from bankruptcy. I remember reading that most anime actually lose money, and serve mainly as an advertisement for the Manga. Even massively successful anime that end up with multiple seasons like One Punch Man and Seven Deadly Sins end up doing major cost cutting in their sequel seasons, to the point where it looks like you're watching a slide show. This isn't really indicative of an industry that has the wiggle room to change their business model very much.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Daos said:

Well I mean Michelangelo did the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel by himself but it took 4 years.

Why would Co-ops be considered Socialist? Are Ace Hardware and the Green Bay Packers Socialist? Ace Hardware is a highly successful company that functions well in a capitalist society.

Are companies on the stock exchanges Socialist? Millions of people owning small percentages of the company and then voting on various things?

Your definition of Socialism is probably drastically different from mine, Socialism typically refers to a system of government where the means of production are owned by the State. If you and 50 friends want to get together and make an Anime no one's stopping you. That's the great thing about living in a country that has economic freedom, as long as you follow existing labor laws you can pretty much do whatever you want.

Without Capitalist countries its doubtful that the ability to even watch animation would exist. There's a reason almost every technological advance in the last 200 years came from Capitalist countries. How long would it have taken them to invent their own TV's? DVD's? Everything else that made watching anime possible?

Even with their current cutthroat model of maximum efficiency, most Anime studios seem to barely turn a profit and seem to be one bad decision away from bankruptcy. I remember reading that most anime actually lose money, and serve mainly as an advertisement for the Manga. Even massively successful anime that end up with multiple seasons like One Punch Man and Seven Deadly Sins end up doing major cost cutting in their sequel seasons, to the point where it looks like you're watching a slide show. This isn't really indicative of an industry that has the wiggle room to change their business model very much.

 

If I advocate for a form of socialism, such as "workers seize the means of production," what I'm talking about is democratic workplaces. Traditiomally, socialism is stateless and commonly side with anti-government activism. For instance, although nazi Germany used the word "socialist" in their party name, the first group they targeted were socialists/communists who'd aligned with anarchists.

A worker co-op being socialist ultimately comes down to there being a democratic structure within the company, so leaders wouls be elected by the workers and they get a say in company policies, and wages - while not always equal - are more evenly split than a system that lets someone like Bezos make billions while paying workers minimum wage and forcing them to pee in bottles since bathroom breaks aren't allowed.

Places like Soviet Russia, while they did implement some socialist policies, were anything but stateless nor democratic, so I don't consider them to have been in line with the general principles. 

I personally wouldn't go so far as to shoot for stateless, but I would ideally want the government to primarily be there to provide services like healthcare and school, and have the obvious natuonal security and whatnot. A lot of similar functions with the regulations aiming to protect the working class rather than the wealthy. I am simplifying, though, since my understanding of economics isn't the greatest.

To be completely clear, while I ideologically fall in the realm of anarcho-syndicalist (basically small government socialist), I wasn't strictly talking about socialism when I said that art existed before capitalism. I was speaking in broader terms that I think regardless of economic structure, so long as the country has the resources and freedom, I think media such as film or animation would still come to be. It's so theoretical that the only real basis is how historically people are always making things of the sort, even if it puts them at risk of execution, so I don't see any reason to believe animation could not exist in any meaningful way outside of capitalism. It was never a strict indictment of capitalism, despite personally disliking it for a number of reasons. But that definitely got tainted by RACG's genocidal advocacy of socialism (I don't even consider her to be socialist with how authoritarian she is). I also wasn't proposing this, as it's unrealistic to expect any time during this life; I was responding very specifically to the claim of anime exists because of capitalism. I probably should have been more clear given how out there RACG is.

Edited by naraku360
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, CountFrylock said:

because Anime

isn't something you just casually do with little thought or effort put into it

stop right there.

Edited by Hidden

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1 hour ago, naraku360 said:

If I advocate for a form of socialism, such as "workers seize the means of production," what I'm talking about is democratic workplaces. Traditiomally, socialism is stateless and commonly side with anti-government activism. For instance, although nazi Germany used the word "socialist" in their party name, the first group they targeted were socialists/communists who'd aligned with anarchists.

A worker co-op being socialist ultimately comes down to there being a democratic structure within the company, so leaders wouls be elected by the workers and they get a say in company policies, and wages - while not always equal - are more evenly split than a system that lets someone like Bezos make billions while paying workers minimum wage and forcing them to pee in bottles since bathroom breaks aren't allowed.

Places like Soviet Russia, while they did implement some socialist policies, were anything but stateless nor democratic, so I don't consider them to have been in line with the general principles. 

I personally wouldn't go so far as to shoot for stateless, but I would ideally want the government to primarily be there to provide services like healthcare and school, and have the obvious natuonal security and whatnot. A lot of similar functions with the regulations aiming to protect the working class rather than the wealthy. I am simplifying, though, since my understanding of economics isn't the greatest.

To be completely clear, while I ideologically fall in the realm of anarcho-syndicalist (basically small government socialist), I wasn't strictly talking about socialism when I said that art existed before capitalism. I was speaking in broader terms that I think regardless of economic structure, so long as the country has the resources and freedom, I think media such as film or animation would still come to be. It's so theoretical that the only real basis is how historically people are always making things of the sort, even if it puts them at risk of execution, so I don't see any reason to believe animation could not exist in any meaningful way outside of capitalism. It was never a strict indictment of capitalism, despite personally disliking it for a number of reasons. But that definitely got tainted by RACG's genocidal advocacy of socialism (I don't even consider her to be socialist with how authoritarian she is). I also wasn't proposing this, as it's unrealistic to expect any time during this life; I was responding very specifically to the claim of anime exists because of capitalism. I probably should have been more clear given how out there RACG is.

So what country is closest to your ideal form of government then? I'm having a hard time picturing what it is exactly. Small government socialist is practically a contradiction.

I think all of the stuff you want is doable in the US. If you want to start a business and then give the workers all equal say in the company and pay them equally I don't think there's any reason why you can't. I think they've tried experiments with this and they failed though.

Here's how the equal pay for everyone experiment went https://norwaytoday.info/finance/a-company-tried-paying-all-employees-the-same-salary-heres-how-it-went/

But my main point, is when would these non capitalist countries have developed any of the technologies required to even create an anime industry that resembles anything we see today? The Soviets main contribution towards tech was the AK47 and Sputnik. Would they have even invented Television by now?

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2 minutes ago, Daos said:

So what country is closest to your ideal form of government then? I'm having a hard time picturing what it is exactly. Small government socialist is practically a contradiction.

I think all of the stuff you want is doable in the US. If you want to start a business and then give the workers all equal say in the company and pay them equally I don't think there's any reason why you can't. I think they've tried experiments with this and they failed though.

Here's how the equal pay for everyone experiment went https://norwaytoday.info/finance/a-company-tried-paying-all-employees-the-same-salary-heres-how-it-went/

But my main point, is when would these non capitalist countries have developed any of the technologies required to even create an anime industry that resembles anything we see today? The Soviets main contribution towards tech was the AK47 and Sputnik. Would they have even invented Television by now?

I'm not talking about equal pay accross the biard ir anything. There would still be hierarchies for specialized occupations and companies still have control of what wages look like, there would just be more influence from lower level workers.  Legislating rules like that in the US isn't going to happen when socialized healthcare is controversial despite most places doing it successfully.

The definition of it is pretty close to what I'm saying and conflicts with yours moreso.

Screenshot_20210818-225139_Chrome.thumb.jpg.c010101a5501ec63bf88283c4badfcb4.jpg

"Regulated by the community as a whole" is pretty much the opposite of big government, since the community makes the rules moreso than a select few elected officials. I'd want a federal government to put certain limits or guidelines, like how we have safety regulations that state laws have to stay in the bounds of or, like, you can't legalize murder. All the definition comes down to is more democracy,.

It isn't too far off from worker co-ops. The definition misconception comes from diictators using the word to gain popularity then abusing their power, but they tend to not really do the things I'm talking about.

I'm probably ideologically around anarcho-syndicalist but pragmatically more soc dem. Like a generic Sweden simp, and they still have capitalism. I don’t really want communism, though, that's way too obtuse for me.

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Merrian Webster defines it as

Definition of socialism

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
 
And in real life, 2a and 2b is how Socialism has gone in every country it's been tried in. State run, no private property, government calls all the shots.
 
Sweden is actually more economically free and more capitalist than the US, just higher taxed.
 
 
Honestly it sounds like you actually want a capitalist system and all the things that it provides, just a better less corrupt one than we have now.
 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Daos said:

Merrian Webster defines it as

Definition of socialism

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
 
And in real life, 2a and 2b is how Socialism has gone in every country it's been tried in. State run, no private property, government calls all the shots.
 
Sweden is actually more economically free and more capitalist than the US, just higher taxed.
 
 
Honestly it sounds like you actually want a capitalist system and all the things that it provides, just a better less corrupt one than we have now.
 

I'm aware they're capitalist, however the economic mobility comes from their welfare programs business regulations. Afterall, social democracy is a hybrid of socialism and capitalism. They are more free, but also guarantee far more benefits for workers and average citizens than we do and since much of that system is collective it would be considered partially socialist.

I'm interested in the primary definition - technically the 3rd can be lumped in, as opposed to the ones you're talking about since they tend to conflict with the principles as originally intended since it's basically supposed to be extensive democracy. I think something of that nature would have to weave into capitalism before it could break out of it into something beyond social democracy. At the end of the day, I'd be fine with just landing on social democracy since that's already been pretty successful in a lot of European countries.

Edited by naraku360

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2 hours ago, naraku360 said:

I'm aware they're capitalist, however the economic mobility comes from their welfare programs business regulations. Afterall, social democracy is a hybrid of socialism and capitalism. They are more free, but also guarantee far more benefits for workers and average citizens than we do and since much of that system is collective it would be considered partially socialist.

I'm interested in the primary definition - technically the 3rd can be lumped in, as opposed to the ones you're talking about since they tend to conflict with the principles as originally intended since it's basically supposed to be extensive democracy. I think something of that nature would have to weave into capitalism before it could break out of it into something beyond social democracy. At the end of the day, I'd be fine with just landing on social democracy since that's already been pretty successful in a lot of European countries.

I've always found Social Democracy to be kind of a nonsense term. All Capitalist countries have socialist elements to them, but if they have high degrees of economic freedom and have market economies we just consider them to be capitalist countries. We have GSE's like Fannie and Freddie, subsidies for a lot of stupid things like ethanol and sugar, state run health exchanges and the US government flat out owns 28 percent of all land in the US. France, Norway, Denmark? All capitalist. Bigger welfare states but still capitalist.

Sweden did try an experiment with a massive welfare state and ultra high taxes in the 70's. It quickly caused an economic downturn and they changed course. So which country would be capable of sustaining something like an anime industry, 70's Sweden or modern day Sweden? I would say the obvious answer would be modern day Sweden.

 

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11 minutes ago, MasqueradeOverture said:

Oh my god nuke this thread

NO U LEARN ABOUT ECONOMICS AND DO HOMEWORK NOW

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