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4 hours ago, NaBarney said:

What damage am I doing by reassuring people that almost everyone who contracts covid will survive and make a full recovery and be just fine?

Specifically, the damage you end up doing is that you encourage people to be lax in rigidly adhering to protocols meant to curb the disease's spread.  People who are under the misconception that a disease is not potentially deadly do things like not wear masks, gather in groups of any size outside of their household, and don't self quarantine any time they are exposed to someone who has tested positive.

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2 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

Specifically, the damage you end up doing is that you encourage people to be lax in rigidly adhering to protocols meant to curb the disease's spread.  People who are under the misconception that a disease is not potentially deadly do things like not wear masks, gather in groups of any size outside of their household, and don't self quarantine any time they are exposed to someone who has tested positive.

So we should lie and make everyone incorrectly think the virus is a bigger threat to them personally than it actually is so maybe they'll stay home more? 

Is that what you are saying? 

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1 minute ago, NaBarney said:

So we should lie and make everyone incorrectly think the virus is a bigger threat to them personally than it actually is so maybe they'll stay home more? 

Is that what you are saying? 

No, i'm saying that the phrase "almost everyone who contracts covid will survive and make a full recovery and be just fine" is itself a lie.  None of what you say is "incorrect" is actually incorrect.

 

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Just now, scoobdog said:

No, i'm saying that the phrase "almost everyone who contracts covid will survive and make a full recovery and be just fine" is itself a lie.

No it isn't, it is the truth, most people are fine shortly after recovering.

Can you please show me a compelling source which disproves the CDC and Mayo clinic pages I just shared that support what I am saying, which you are calling a lie?

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Just now, NaBarney said:

No it isn't, it is the truth, most people are fine shortly after recovering.

Can you please show me a compelling source which disproves the CDC and Mayo clinic pages I just shared that support what I am saying, which you are calling a lie?

Like I said, ask a health care worker.  They would tell you that is not the truth, and they actually know what they're talking about.

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5 minutes ago, stilgar said:

Maybe nabs should go and get covid so he can tell us how safe it is.

Then he can go to the Mayo Clinic and complain to them about how their guidelines don't say what he thinks they say.

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31 minutes ago, NaBarney said:

So we should lie and make everyone incorrectly think the virus is a bigger threat to them personally than it actually is so maybe they'll stay home more? 

Is that what you are saying? 

It's not about personal safety.

It's about being literally the 3rd highest cause of death in the country.

We can all understand it's not so lethal that everyone should be terrified of personally getting it and also advocate for responsible responses to it. Routinely pointing out the former while advocating against lockdowns and the science community is not helping. It doesn't make us feel safer, nor hopeful for our loved ones.

It's the exact opposite. It demonstrates the lack of seriousness our country has treated it with. That's more frightening than comforting.

The reason we're still dealing with it is because the US is full of brainlets who want to go back to business as usual without the effort it would take to do so safely.

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34 minutes ago, NaBarney said:

No it isn't, it is the truth, most people are fine shortly after recovering.

Can you please show me a compelling source which disproves the CDC and Mayo clinic pages I just shared that support what I am saying, which you are calling a lie?

Well, duh. Of course "most people" will be fine. That's most diseases on the planet.

The point is that its killed a quarter million in counting and it most likely can be contracted multiple times. The more we downplay it, the longer this shit has to go on.

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18 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

while advocating against lockdowns

I don't know what "advocating against lockdowns" means. The US never had a lockdown. I've said since the beginning the govt should pay everyone to stay home exactly like Bernie has been advocating for all year with his proposal of $2k a month to every household for the duration of the pandemic. I've said the govt should hire people who want to work to supplement that $2k to do things like deliver food and groceries to elderly and at risk people so they don't have to risk death just to go to the grocery store. If I said something specific you want to respond to then respond to it, but this vague alluding to me being an anti mask gun toting anti lockdown protestor is garbo.  

13 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

Well, duh. Of course "most people" will be fine. That's most diseases on the planet.

Scoob is right here on this page telling me it's a lie though.

13 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

The more we downplay it, the longer this shit has to go on.

Downplaying it from where? If me stating clearly basic facts (which you just said "duh, that's common sense" in response to) is "downplaying" it to somebody then they probably benefited from it being "downplayed" for them, right? So their perspective can be aligned more closely with reality? This is all new to most of us and we're all just looking for understanding here. 

Edited by NaBarney
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I like that nabs has conveniently forgotten how much he complained about the lock down and that everything should open up. 

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1 hour ago, stilgar said:

I like that nabs has conveniently forgotten how much he complained about the lock down and that everything should open up. 

I complained about a thing that never happened to me? 

Remind me again how long anything was ever closed in TN.

There shouldn't be a "lockdown" here if the govt doesn't do anything at all to give people money so they can afford rent and food while they're not able to go to work, if the govt doesn't do anything to save all the cool local music venues and bars and restaurants and small businesses that won't survive a prolonged "lockdown" (a few weeks? A few months? Longer? It is never clear what anyone means by "lockdown" or what the broader goals for it are, what the benefits to the steep costs are, besides  "make local numbers go down in the short term.") 

If it's just gonna be a work from home and order delivery food from GrubSlob every day vacation for everyone with that kind of a job, and "everything the same as it was before but worse" for people who have to leave the house to do their jobs, (restaurant staff cooking To-Go food, the GrubSlob drivers, Instacart Shoppers, healthcare workers, emergency personnel, utility line workers, etc etc) then no, "shutting down" some large fraction of businesses and places and people's lives sounds like it's doing a lot more harm than good to society when the govt ain't even making use of the time by building up any sort of anti-covid infrastructure to make pausing everything for a little while worth it wrt keeping covid at bay for longer than five seconds after the "lockdown" ends (for example, not making people wait a week for a covid test result from the local health dept)

--- if that's all it's gonna be then hell no I don't see the point of preemptively* closing everything (*ie area hospitals not rapidly approaching critical mass) for a little while and fucking everyone's life and finances all the way up and then opening back up like the virus is going to magically be gone somehow bc all the Hooters in a X mile radius were closed for the month of Y. That's not how global pandemics work. 

It sounds like we're not getting anything different with Biden than what we've seen all year, no national lockdown (see: Europe), individual cities and states continuing to do whatever they want, and whenever hospitals start filling up somewhere they'll roll out some new rules like "no bars in city limits open after 10pm for the next three weeks" and "no more than 15 people working out in a gym at one time" which won't actually do anything beyond at best correlate with a temporary localized dip in cases, a momentary blip that does nothing to actually affect the scale of the pandemic in this country. 

They won't just give us money to stay home because that's socialism and Biden ran specifically against that kind of Venezuelan bullshit, so instead they're just going to do nothing at all except tap the brakes for a moment whenever shit pops off too much in any particular place at one time, while they come up with the best meaningless, toothless "official recommendations" and around-the-edges restrictions tinkering and fake ways to make it look like they give a shit so that later they can have something to point to and lie and say actually it was the best way to save the most lives when that never even factored into the equation, because it doesn't. 

Otherwise they would just fucking give people money to stay home simple as that, just like even the goddamn awful cursed island United Kingdom is doing. 

Edited by NaBarney
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4 hours ago, NaBarney said:

It is never clear what anyone means by "lockdown" or what the broader goals for it are, what the benefits to the steep costs are, besides  "make local numbers go down in the short term.") 

ah yes, the futile goal of combating the virus

as opposed to the noble goal of getting people used to socialism

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I would say that bringing up how the vast majority of people who catch Covid survive it with no serious complications isnt a problem. I actually go back to that fact when I get worried about me or people I know catching it. Its reassuring to know that the odds are on our side still. 

However, I also would say that just because 98% of the people survive, and 90% of the people recover with no long-term effects doesnt mean we should take this less seriously. To put it in perspective, we are going to be witnessing a 9/11 worth of deaths every day, day after day, week after week, pretty soon here. And the vast majority of these deaths are entirely preventable. 

There are also millions of people who are now going to have long-term health problems from this, some of which could be debilitating. Who knows how long those problems will last, they may be permanent or they may go away after some time. Either way its not something to just brush off. Frankly, these are what scare me more than the death part of Covid. At least if you die you dont worry about it, but if you have these long-term effects your life pretty quickly comes crashing down. 

 

The best way Ive heard this described is its a lot like wearing a seatbelt. Sure, you probably dont need to wear one because 99% of your car trips are pretty uneventful. But all it takes is one person running a stop sign and now your dead or seriously injured for the rest of your life. Its entirely preventable if you just wear your seatbelt and obey the traffic laws.  Or in other words, wear a mask and practice social distancing. 

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1 hour ago, Master-Debater131 said:

There are also millions of people who are now going to have long-term health problems from this, some of which could be debilitating. Who knows how long those problems will last, they may be permanent or they may go away after some time. Either way its not something to just brush off. Frankly, these are what scare me more than the death part of Covid. At least if you die you dont worry about it, but if you have these long-term effects your life pretty quickly comes crashing down. 

This part of your post especially. We should probably frame the argument around this... how millions of new chronic illnesses will burden your insurance company and raise your premiums. That might get people to mask up even if they don't care about the daily 9/11.

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4 hours ago, Poof said:

ah yes, the futile goal of combating the virus

as opposed to the noble goal of getting people used to socialism

"Combating the virus" - if a six or eight week American style quarter-assed partial shutdown costs untold billions of dollars and only pauses the spiking case count for a month or two is that worth doing? Why? How is that combating the virus, the virus isn't going anywhere because you did that. What's the theory behind doing that, it seems pretty pointless to me if you're not doing it to buy time to improve rapid testing or institute any preventive anti-transmission measures for when we inevitably open back up mid-global pandemic, it isn't going to ultimately have any effect on the total amount of viral spread/deaths that we're facing, so why even do it if the result is essentially the same as doing nothing/continuing our ongoing policy of cautious monitoring #s by locales and regions and tapping the breaks in certain places when hospitals risk being overcrowded. 

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2 hours ago, Master-Debater131 said:

However, I also would say that just because 98% of the people survive,

To put it in perspective, we are going to be witnessing a 9/11 worth of deaths every day, day after day, week after week, pretty soon here. And the vast majority of these deaths are entirely preventable. 

99.xx%

Still waiting to hear how America is going to do anything to prevent these deaths when all the things that would actually prevent them are entirely off the table, no matter if it's Trump or Biden in there, they're not going to do anything to even try to prevent these deaths, only try to manage the precipitous increases in case and death count, that is pretty clear to me by now.

Edited by NaBarney
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I said a couple of times the long term effects of the virus will fuck up the economy more than had we just shut shit down and paid people to stay home.  
We don’t know that asymptomatic people won’t develop some weird ailment in the future. There are people almost a year away from when they were sick and they’re still suffering. In a decade we’ll have more people on SSI, and SSD than ever before.  That’s a problem because we need people working to pay those taxes for the people needing it now. If everyone is gonna need it, who will be paying into it?

possible upside wages go up because the workforce will be much smaller than it should be. Downside retirement age is now 85, most people die before cashing in, which was the plan all along. 
 

BUT before any of that happens unemployment and eventually homelessness will reach an all time high as it takes the federal government way too fuckin long to recognize covid related permanent disabilities 

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5 minutes ago, 1pooh4u said:

Downside retirement age is now 85,

Ah come on, I am hopeful that Joe Biden will be able to work with Mitch McConnell to get things done and at least keep it below 75, but we'll find out.

We will find out. 

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2 hours ago, NaBarney said:

"Combating the virus" - if a six or eight week American style quarter-assed partial shutdown costs untold billions of dollars and only pauses the spiking case count for a month or two is that worth doing? Why? How is that combating the virus, the virus isn't going anywhere because you did that. What's the theory behind doing that, it seems pretty pointless to me if you're not doing it to buy time to improve rapid testing or institute any preventive anti-transmission measures for when we inevitably open back up mid-global pandemic, it isn't going to ultimately have any effect on the total amount of viral spread/deaths that we're facing, so why even do it if the result is essentially the same as doing nothing/continuing our ongoing policy of cautious monitoring #s by locales and regions and tapping the breaks in certain places when hospitals risk being overcrowded. 

It's phenomenally stupid to not lockdown until you have it under control which is what countries w/more control over their populations did. Then when you reopen you can do targeted lockdowns around clusters and contact tracing to stop any major spread.

I get that we can't have that bc americans are stupid but still... It's obviously behaving just like any other flu and spiking during flu season just like 1918 spanish flu. Past flu pandemics come in waves. It's not just straight up throughout the whole year.

We're in the beginning of what will probably be the worst wave. Letting it go unchecked will cost lives. If we do restrictions these next winter months, it will save lives. It's not delaying deaths.

Have you read.... anything... on past flu pandemics? Or is this just some good ol tennysee logic coming at me?

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2 hours ago, 1pooh4u said:

I said a couple of times the long term effects of the virus will fuck up the economy more than had we just shut shit down and paid people to stay home.  

If we were smart then at the very beginning we would have taken that massive bailout that we gave to huge corporations and instead gone with a UBI for 3-4 months. Tell everyone to stay home, shut the entire country down, and send everyone 3k a month for 3 months to get through this mess.

 

You do that, and follow it up with massive contact tracing and social distancing practices, and we would be in a totally different place. And the economy would be way better off as well. Right now its teetering on a cliff and about to go over. 

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LA County is returning to stay at home orders.  Restaurants return to delivery and take out only.

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idk about any of you people, but i'm going back to normal in january, approx 1-2 weeks after i get that vaccine. my day job qualifies me as "essential" because of being vital staff at the bank, which will always be operational during even the most severe stay-at-home orders. once the actual essential folks (h/c, long-term, etc etc) get theirs, i'll be signing right he fuck up.

just got tested again today. 2nd time in 72 hours, because wife is still carrying the fever and aches. we both keep testing negative though. next step, i suppose, is to pay for an antibody test to see if i'm already immune. had way too many exposures since september for all these negative tests to just be coincidence.

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14 minutes ago, wacky1980 said:

idk about any of you people, but i'm going back to normal in january, approx 1-2 weeks after i get that vaccine. my day job qualifies me as "essential" because of being vital staff at the bank, which will always be operational during even the most severe stay-at-home orders. once the actual essential folks (h/c, long-term, etc etc) get theirs, i'll be signing right he fuck up.

just got tested again today. 2nd time in 72 hours, because wife is still carrying the fever and aches. we both keep testing negative though. next step, i suppose, is to pay for an antibody test to see if i'm already immune. had way too many exposures since september for all these negative tests to just be coincidence.

We already have been told that even though, we are "essential" he won't be on the short list for first wave.

Idk... ill get it day one im able to... 

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20 hours ago, Poof said:

We're in the beginning of what will probably be the worst wave. Letting it go unchecked will cost lives. If we do restrictions these next winter months, it will save lives. It's not delaying deaths.

If most of America shuts down in any significant way for 4 months or w/e it is you're suggesting (not happening now or after Biden is inaugurated, unless restrictions on restaurant capacity and hours really is all we're talking about here) but IF we did, and the govt didn't give people money, the worst thing abt covid to most people would continue to be the economic devastation, not the virus itself -- but it would save a lot of lives and that would unquestionably be worth it, in that scenario where there is a coherent and effective national response. 

What I'm saying is these fake """lockdown""" restrictions, which are barely even enforced anywhere, which amount to little more than restrictions on bar and restaurant hours and capacity, (while leaving every other sort of business and element of society open like normal, as if most of them are even remotely necessary during a pandemic), aren't going to save very many lives at all, are not going to have a significant impact on continued covid spread, and are still going to continue to cause economic devastation, make everyone even more fed up and exhausted w their sacrifices not amounting to anything as infections continue to rise everywhere, and for what? If we're not going to do anything real because that would require giving people money (and we can't do that because it's alt-left socialism) then I just don't think it's worth it imo. Not gaining anything, not saving anyone, just causing more financial hardship and immiseration for working people and small businesses who already had a horrible year. 

Do it right or just don't bother tbh bc it just isn't worth it, getting about the same result and everyone can tell you're only doing this weak fake shutdown virtue signaling shit bc you're too cowardly and ideologically conservative to do anything that would actually have an effect. 

We're basically asking our poorest to take another economic hit so that state and local govts can pretend like they're saving lives by doing quarter assed measures which probably won't have any observable effect but later it'll be claimed that those brave difficult decisions saved untold lives thanks to our wise and benevolent leaders, and it's clearly bullshit. 

Ofc this is mostly a failure of the federal govt bc most everyone else is either legally powerless, totally broke or governed by conservative Republicans who hate spending money on people's well-being, but I'm just saying. If the only action coming is making bars close early and restaurants seat even fewer people then it sounds like we're getting "nothing, but just pretend as if this is something"

Edited by NaBarney
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10 minutes ago, Sawdamizer said:

We already have been told that even though, we are "essential" he won't be on the short list for first wave.

Idk... ill get it day one im able to... 

in our state's plan, i would be in group 1c, with 1a being critical health care and 1b being long-term facilities and residents (as of right now anyways). projections say the first shipments would cover 1a and possibly some of 1b, and the second round of shipments (due in january) would cover the rest of 1b and some portion of 1c. groups 2+ would start some time in mar/apr, which is around the time some projections are setting the point where supply starts to match pace with demand in some regions. we're rural and stupid enough around here that i won't have trouble getting toward the front of the line for group 1c, esp considering wife used to work in the health dept and has a few friends still in there.

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My Gov just signed an EO allowing CDPHE to close hospitals if they become overcrowded.  If a hospital is approaching capacity they have to let CDPHE know, CDPHE can then close that hospital to new Covid intake until a bed opens up. Hospitals still have to stabilize anyone who comes to the ER, but they can immediately release them  if they are out of space. 


The idea here is actually to preserve some hospital capacity to non-Covid emergencies like heart attacks, ruptured appendix, or any other critical healthcare need that usually we have capacity to deal with. 

 

Thats one thing people seem to keep forgetting. Just because we are all (hopefully) staying home doesnt mean other emergencies have stopped. They will continue to require immediate attention and if our healthcare system is overwhelmed then previously routine emergencies become much much worse. 

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ND - 73,403; 852 allowed deaths. 

They are bringing in military nurses to assist in the hospitals. 

Definitely have been exposed. All of those individuals' tests have returned positive. 6 so far. 

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All this talk from politicians esp. blue state governors and big city mayors about "stay home for Thanksgiving, don't travel, don't congregate with other households" yet seemingly no mention anywhere of "stay home for black Friday, don't join the crowds, don't go out and congregate at Walmart and the mall and stand in lines to buy shit you don't need" really tells you all you need to know about just how unseriously covid is being taken by people with the power but not the will to limit unnecessary large gatherings at non essential businesses like retail stores. Whatever store capacity Walmart thinks is safe is fine. 

Traveling to see family you don't live with, selfish, reckless, indefensible, publicly shamed by elected officials. Going out to shop for mega deal savings events on the biggest shopping day of the year? Vital, protected, good for the economy, no restrictions or public warnings or admonishments, let's get that sales tax revenue baybee!

Edited by NaBarney
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i do think we need another nation wide shutdown but without any sort of government aid we got too many people that wont be able to do it without getting destroyed economically. even with help we are gonna have a lot of trouble getting many to not break quarantine. 

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On 11/22/2020 at 8:18 PM, scoobdog said:

LA County is returning to stay at home orders.  Restaurants return to delivery and take out only.

Anything else, or is this all they're doing? Asking in earnest. 

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"We really need to make patients aware that this is not going to be a walk in the park," Fryhofer said during a virtual meeting with the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, or ACIP, an outside group of medical experts that advise the CDC. She is also a liaison to the committee. "They are going to know they had a vaccine. They are probably not going to feel wonderful. But they've got to come back for that second dose."

Participants in Moderna and Pfizer's coronavirus vaccine trials told CNBC in September that they were experiencing high fever, body aches, bad headaches, daylong exhaustion and other symptoms after receiving the shots. While the symptoms were uncomfortable, and at times intense, the participants said they often went away after a day, sometimes sooner, and that it was better than getting Covid-19.

Both companies acknowledged that their vaccines could induce side effects that are similar to symptoms associated with mild Covid-19, such as muscle pain, chills and headache.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/11/23/covid-vaccine-cdc-should-warn-people-the-side-effects-from-shots-wont-be-walk-in-the-park-.html

Not at all looking forward to the coming rhetoric shaming people who resist getting a historically hastily rolled out vaccine. The Cuomo's of this country are 100% going to shriek and cry about how not getting vaccinated makes you a murderer. Wearing a mask and staying home won't be enough anymore, now you have to go get the shots or else you're an anti-science conspiracy theorist monster who doesn't care if people die. It's going to become so polarized and so, so dark.

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1 hour ago, NaBarney said:

Anything else, or is this all they're doing? Asking in earnest. 

Don't know.  They could shut down non-essential businesses too.  We've exceeded the 4500 new cases or 1700 hospitalization threshold for that, but any determination could take a couple of days.

FWIW:  https://www.dailynews.com/2020/11/23/barger-wants-to-keep-outdoor-dining-open-in-la-county/

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34 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

 They could shut down non-essential businesses too.  

Doubt.

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/l-a-mayor-garcetti-holds-briefing-ahead-of-outdoor-dining-shutdowns-another-possible-stay-at-home-order/

And if infections reach 4,500 or more, the county said it would institute another stay-at-home order. Monday, health officials reported 6,124 new coronavirus cases — the most the county has seen in a single day.

But Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer said Monday that if a new stay-at-home order is announced, it will not be as strict as the one at the start of the pandemic in March.

And although this vague afterthought about relief for restaurants and workers is at least the right thing to *say*, it's hard to know how real it is going to be. And even if it does prove materially beneficial to workers (big, big doubt), most places in the country don't have funds to pay restaurant workers for their lost wages

Later Monday, Garcetti said the city would provide assistance to struggling industries.

“Whether you own a restaurant or work in one, or you’ve been supporting the industry by dining out or ordering in more safely, I know there are a lot of worries out there,” he said. “When we have to stop outdoor dining, or limit the hours of other businesses, we will take the funds that we have in business assistance and surge them into those industries to get us through this period.”

34 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

Great read, thanks for sharing. 

It sounds like restaurants/bars are being scapegoated everywhere for the infection numbers we're seeing, which is extremely dubious to say the least. 

Restaurant workers are generally among the poorest and least powerful workers in this country, but they have to take the brunt of the economic devastation caused by these restrictions that are probably not going to have a noticeable impact on the pandemic, because taking any other measures which would be more/actually effective is either too hard/unpopular, or beyond the control of state and local leaders who nevertheless don't want to be seen as doing *nothing*, hence the scapegoating of the poors and their filthy eateries and bars. 

I'm sure you saw this. . . 

https://www.foxla.com/news/fox-11-obtains-exclusive-photos-of-gov-newsom-at-french-restaurant-allegedly-not-following-covid-19-protocols

So yeah, sorry if I don't enthusiastically support these tertiary PR measures which are only going to make the winter even harder for the poorest people while doing little to nothing to stop the spread of the coronavirus. Just seems like calculated political posturing theatrics to me 

Edited by NaBarney

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Yeah, they are being scapegoated.  The real culprit remains people grouping for whatever reason, and it's the one thing that the county can't stop effectively.

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The field hospital on SIUH North South Beach campus has reopened.  We only have 3 hospitals on SI, all private, none particularly good.  I’m in the yellow zone for now, but all of it will turn orange (or red wtf it is) before long.  

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2 hours ago, Master-Debater131 said:

Sooooo Roughly 4 million people have already traveled through airports for Thanksgiving this year. Gonna be a fun next few weeks. 

Yup, it’s gonna suck the big, rotten, meat. that’s for sure. 

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5 minutes ago, 1pooh4u said:

Yup, it’s gonna suck the big, rotten, meat. that’s for sure. 

As bad as it is, Im trying to find some light in all of it. One glimmer of light is that it will speed up our progress toward herd immunity.  Its the dumb way to get there, but its a way. 

 

You have this many people get it and recover and combine that with the vaccinations that are going to start within weeks and we really do seem to be reaching a point where we can start to see the end of this thing. 

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