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2020 Presidential Elections mega-thread

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5 minutes ago, NaBarney said:

It was half a century ago, Joe Biden opposed school desegregation bussing for years, starting years after this date, but go off with w/e vitally important thing you're talking about. 

Dude, this was all brought up ages ago back when he first started the presidential run in 2015. He wrote that essay back in the 70's and while it is old news, you should have already known it as his personal cheerleader all these years. You wanted to know if it was a bit, I let you know that nope, it did happen. You can even look it all up on Snopes which includes the actual essay. 

It might not be exactly as you might be thinking but the fact that you immediately attempted to dismiss even the thought of it all is telling. 

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3 minutes ago, katt_goddess said:

You wanted to know if it was a bit, I let you know that nope, it did happen.

I meant poof bringing it up now, here in this thread, today, in the context she did, is THAT a bit. 

Her whole absurd horseshoe theory gibberish seems like a fake intentionally dumb troll, but I can't be sure. 

Edited by NaBarney
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31 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

i dont know? if he did thats weird but has nothing to do with his political career. 

bernie should be getting critiqued for other reasons. 

 

I can critique him for other reasons.

Like how bernie is a democratic socialist now but all the times he admired brutal dictatorships as long as they were building socialist states. We can bring that up if we want to go back 40 years.

And I can critique his policies now and how the taxes he proposes to pay for his plans wouldn't actually work. They wouldn't actually be enough. If you did all the things he wanted, idk if it would actually do much to fix inequality bc youd have huge deficit spending like bigger than what we had for covid spending this year bigger than that. Which devalues the dollar which is like a flat tax(actually regressive) which is terrible for poor ppl and savers. Great for the rich who own 88% of the stock market which would sky rocket on the spending. Would his mega taxes on the richest ppl and corporations be enough to offset that? Maybe? Not sure. His plans sound good but theres major problems w/them.

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2 minutes ago, NaBarney said:

I meant poof bringing it up now, here in this thread, today, in the context she did, is THAT a bit. 

Her whole absurd horseshoe theory gibberish seems like a fake intentionally dumb troll, but I can't be sure. 

It triggering you doesn't make it a troll. 

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2 minutes ago, Poof said:

It triggering you doesn't make it a troll. 

This is just sad. You gonna trigger me with the video of Bernie honeymooning in Russia next? Oh please don't remind me of even more decades old rightwing dirt on 79 year old Joe Biden endorser Senator Bernie Sanders, I just can't take it

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4 minutes ago, NaBarney said:

This is just sad. You gonna trigger me with the video of Bernie honeymooning in Russia next? Oh please don't remind me of even more decades old rightwing dirt on 79 year old Joe Biden endorser Senator Bernie Sanders, I just can't take it

Was thinking about Jane Sanders bankrupting a school and collecting $200,000 actually

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14 minutes ago, Poof said:

I can critique him for other reasons.

Like how bernie is a democratic socialist now but all the times he admired brutal dictatorships as long as they were building socialist states. We can bring that up if we want to go back 40 years.

And I can critique his policies now and how the taxes he proposes to pay for his plans wouldn't actually work. They wouldn't actually be enough. If you did all the things he wanted, idk if it would actually do much to fix inequality bc youd have huge deficit spending like bigger than what we had for covid spending this year bigger than that. Which devalues the dollar which is like a flat tax(actually regressive) which is terrible for poor ppl and savers. Great for the rich who own 88% of the stock market which would sky rocket on the spending. Would his mega taxes on the richest ppl and corporations be enough to offset that? Maybe? Not sure. His plans sound good but theres major problems w/them.

because there are things to admire from some of those socialist states despite them having some brutal leaders? like what china has done and has been doing these past 40 years and continues to do? in the span of right after ww2 they will have gone from one of the poorest nations, and is currently at #2, ready to surpass us in this decade? i say thats pretty admirable. and they doing it while lifting many of their people out of poverty. 

 

as for paying for many of the stuff he proposes? yeah we used to have a much higher ta rate for the wealthy back in the 40s and 50s and can do that again. of course its a little bit more harder now since companies are good at avoiding taxes and hiding their money. just saying the wealth gap is a real thing. its no mystery where all the money is being syphoned to. 

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2 minutes ago, Poof said:

Was thinking about Jane Sanders bankrupting a school and collecting $200,000 actually

Why be a clown like this instead of talking about anything real?

All the things going on in the world and you're here recycling Gemini Shamrock trolling tactics circa 2017

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1 minute ago, NaBarney said:

Why be a clown like this instead of talking about anything real?

 

1 minute ago, NaBarney said:

Why be a clown like this instead of talking about anything real?

 

2 minutes ago, NaBarney said:

Why be a clown like this instead of talking about anything real?

 

2 minutes ago, NaBarney said:

Why be a clown like this instead of talking about anything real?

 

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3 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

because there are things to admire from some of those socialist states despite them having some brutal leaders? like what china has done and has been doing these past 40 years and continues to do? in the span of right after ww2 they will have gone from one of the poorest nations, and is currently at #2, ready to surpass us in this decade? i say thats pretty admirable. and they doing it while lifting many of their people out of poverty. 

 

as for paying for many of the stuff he proposes? yeah we used to have a much higher ta rate for the wealthy back in the 40s and 50s and can do that again. of course its a little bit more harder now since companies are good at avoiding taxes and hiding their money. just saying the wealth gap is a real thing. its no mystery where all the money is being syphoned to. 

Ok your first paragraph proves my point

Your second paragraph doesn't even begin to address the points I made about his policies. I'm sorry it just doesn't.

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7 minutes ago, NaBarney said:

Why be a clown like this instead of talking about anything real?

All the things going on in the world and you're here recycling Gemini Shamrock trolling tactics circa 2017

Well like Katt said, youre bringing up stuff we went over in 2015. So why not?

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Just now, Poof said:

Well like Katt said, youre bringing up stuff we went over in 2015. So why not?

? I didn't see katt say I was doing that, where did I do that? Stuff like wot? You're bringing up old Sanders smears here in response to what exactly? 

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1 minute ago, Poof said:

Ok your first paragraph proves my point

Your second paragraph doesn't even begin to address the points I made about his policies. I'm sorry it just doesn't.

how? i dont even think bernie acknowledge anything positive about the china, it was only about cuba. which he was saying something positive about the educational system, then the media was all like, so you support brutal dictatorships? real hit piece. 

 

the second point has more to do that we do haave the money for all of programs. just tax corporations and rich people. the wealth gap has been doing nothing but increasing. the levels of inequality are even worse now than they were in the gilded age. theres money to pay for all of it. 

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2 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

because there are things to admire from some of those socialist states despite them having some brutal leaders? like what china has done and has been doing these past 40 years and continues to do? in the span of right after ww2 they will have gone from one of the poorest nations, and is currently at #2, ready to surpass us in this decade? i say thats pretty admirable. and they doing it while lifting many of their people out of poverty. 

Lol.  Pretty sure China go to be the No. 2 economy of the world by doing the exact same thing the robber barons did following the Civil War.  Expanding economies are always built on the backs of the underclasses.

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1 minute ago, scoobdog said:

Lol.  Pretty sure China go to be the No. 2 economy of the world by doing the exact same thing the robber barons did following the Civil War.  Expanding economies are always built on the backs of the underclasses.

china has almost gotten rid of extreme poverty, has a lower homeless percentage than many other western country and that underclass keeps rising. plus they are taking big steps in the worldwide stage and are helping out other countries. they have been trending in the right direction. 

 

remember how helpful they were to the world with covid? 

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5 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

how? i dont even think bernie acknowledge anything positive about the china, it was only about cuba. which he was saying something positive about the educational system, then the media was all like, so you support brutal dictatorships? real hit piece. 

the second point has more to do that we do haave the money for all of programs. just tax corporations and rich people. the wealth gap has been doing nothing but increasing. the levels of inequality are even worse now than they were in the gilded age. theres money to pay for all of it. 

Real big fan of the Great Leap Forward huh? Also keep in mind China's growth really took off around the time they gave up some of the communist ideology and integrated more capitalism.

"Just tax the rich" it's not that simple. How would the tax he proposes to cover free tuition work when he bases it off amounts spent on tuition in previous years? As if more people wouldn't go to college if it were free? It's this kind of wishful budgeting that would lead to deficit spending which would result in an effective regressive tax on the poor, and a boon to the stock market that would make the rich richer.

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8 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

china has almost gotten rid of extreme poverty, has a lower homeless percentage than many other western country and that underclass keeps rising. plus they are taking big steps in the worldwide stage and are helping out other countries. they have been trending in the right direction. 

remember how helpful they were to the world with covid? 

Yea when they starve to death, kinda does get rid of them

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16 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

china has almost gotten rid of extreme poverty, has a lower homeless percentage than many other western country and that underclass keeps rising. plus they are taking big steps in the worldwide stage and are helping out other countries. they have been trending in the right direction. 

Based on what?

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10 minutes ago, Poof said:

Real big fan of the Great Leap Forward huh? Also keep in mind China's growth really took off around the time they gave up some of the communist ideology and integrated more capitalism.

"Just tax the rich" it's not that simple. How would the tax he proposes to cover free tuition work when he bases it off amounts spent on tuition in previous years? As if more people wouldn't go to college if it were free? It's this kind of wishful budgeting that would lead to deficit spending which would result in an effective regressive tax on the poor, and a boon to the stock market that would make the rich richer.

the transformation is still underway. yes they operate in the capitalist system, but they are still in the transition to communism. 

 

how come other countries offer things like free higher education or healthcare for their citizens? we cant do the same when it comes to helping out our own people? maybe it wont work with bernies plan but it can work. they just tell us it wont so they can steal more wealth from us. 

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14 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

Based on what?

many different metrics? surpassing us as the #1 economy within the decade. eliminating homelessness and extreme poverty. building up their infrastructure. working together peacefully with other nations. and they are even starting to play a bigger stage around the globe. the only thing we will have over them is our military might but that wont do us any good. 

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7 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

many different metrics? surpassing us as the #1 economy within the decade. eliminating homelessness and extreme poverty. building up their infrastructure. working together peacefully with other nations. and they are even starting to play a bigger stage around the globe. the only thing we will have over them is our military might but that wont do us any good. 

No, what are you basing these milestones on?  What makes you sure China has far less homelessness, for instance, when they don't allow us to see any homelessness?

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7 minutes ago, scoobdog said:

No, what are you basing these milestones on?  What makes you sure China has far less homelessness, for instance, when they don't allow us to see any homelessness?

China doesn't need to have homelessness when they're putting up nets on their factories to make sure their citizens have no choice but to work. I'm amazed to see any praise for China but that's what this political system brought us and I'm not surprised.

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China, even from what little I saw, isn't the magical place where poverty doesn't exist.  They do almost exactly the same thing we do when it comes to redevelopment:  tear down old neighborhoods, displace the people living there, and rebuild on the ashes.  You don't have that if you don't also have poverty and homelessness.

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19 minutes ago, Distortedreasoning said:

the transformation is still underway. yes they operate in the capitalist system, but they are still in the transition to communism. 

 

how come other countries offer things like free higher education or healthcare for their citizens? we cant do the same when it comes to helping out our own people? maybe it wont work with bernies plan but it can work. they just tell us it wont so they can steal more wealth from us. 

They're transitioning away from communism more and more as time goes on.

I didn't say we couldn't have free healthcare or free education, but nothing is really free, you're always going to pay for it. Either the individual pays cash, taxes, or government deficit spending. If you happen to pay for it thru deficit spending, that's very bad. It creates inflation which devalues everyone's dollar. Everyone except the rich bc they have their money in equities. The other effect of inflation has is rising price of stocks. So the rich get richer, while the poor get poorer. It's like a super transgressive tax. 

That's why I don't like Bernie's policies. I like his intentions. I think he wants to help, but I think it requires a different touch. Bc if you don't get socialist policies right in a corrupt system it can make it worse.

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1 hour ago, Distortedreasoning said:

china has almost gotten rid of extreme poverty, has a lower homeless percentage than many other western country and that underclass keeps rising. plus they are taking big steps in the worldwide stage and are helping out other countries. they have been trending in the right direction. 

 

remember how helpful they were to the world with covid? 

Conveniently forgetting about the totalitarian crackdowns on freedom of expression, the construction of concentration camps for undesirable ethnic minorities, and the public works projects that displace hundreds of thousands from their homes, are we?

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1 minute ago, naraku360 said:

Really, poof?

Stfu.

I respect you more than almost anyone who posts in this folder, truly and sincerely. You have integrity and it rules. 

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6 hours ago, naraku360 said:

Really, poof?

Stfu.

no

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Really wish folks wouldn't look at nabs and distorted's terrible reasoning and hitch it automatically to liberal democratic socialism in general. 

Here's the facts- the united states is insanely conservative when compared to the rest of the world on several key issues.

The right-most of right parties in European countries don't want to replace their socialist healthcare systems with a business-themed one because thats fucking ridiculous. 

I know nabs is an idiot, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

The united states needs socialized healthcare. 

The united states needs a progressive tax structure.

The united states needs to make investments into infrastructure- most notably in the forms of green energy, public transportation, and creating the internet into a public utility. 

 

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1 hour ago, SwimModSponges said:

We need to bring back the Bull Moose party.

 

I'd vote the shit out of zombie Teddy Roosevelt.

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It's legit crazy how early 1900s republicans dragged the rest of the united states in a rightwards direction to such a strong degree that the positions held by the liberal parts of the conservative party 100 years ago are now considered extreme by the liberal party.

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2 hours ago, SwimModSponges said:

Really wish folks wouldn't look at nabs and distorted's terrible reasoning and hitch it automatically to liberal democratic socialism in general. 

I know nabs is an idiot, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

If ppl would actually read and comprehend my posts, I don't. I just said:

12 hours ago, Poof said:

That's why I don't like Bernie's policies. I like his intentions. I think he wants to help, but I think it requires a different touch. Bc if you don't get socialist policies right in a corrupt system it can make it worse.

There. I'm so tired of nobody reading. Or if they do read, it doesn't sink in. Idk why. I'm tired of everyone being fucking information illiterate and accusing me of things that I never say just bc they don't read what I'm saying. I'm sorry but I"m tired of it.

2 hours ago, SwimModSponges said:

Here's the facts- the united states is insanely conservative when compared to the rest of the world on several key issues.

The right-most of right parties in European countries don't want to replace their socialist healthcare systems with a business-themed one because thats fucking ridiculous. 

I know nabs is an idiot, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

The united states needs socialized healthcare. 

The united states needs a progressive tax structure.

The united states needs to make investments into infrastructure- most notably in the forms of green energy, public transportation, and creating the internet into a public utility. 

The united states has a progressive tax structure. We need to reform certain parts of it to better enforce tax evasion and "close the loopholes" on rich ppl and companies.

You know who you'd think has a progressive tax structure but really sorta doesn't? The nordic social democracies. They all have super high sales/VAT taxes which is a flat tax, not-progressive tax. This never gets talked about when we compare ourselves to these countries.

Something else that doesn't get talked about is our overweight/obesity/inactivity problem. We're fattest by far out of all the rich, developed countries. This absolutely increases our healthcare costs.

And we are the pharmaceutical innovator of the world. If Norway reduces their drug prices thru regulation, we still pay a lot which funds the innovation so the innovation continues. They still enjoy the benefits of new drugs and have been for quite some time. They get a free ride so to speak. Now... (and this is one of those information literacy moments I was bitching about)... that doesn't mean that I don't think we should force our drug prices down. We should. I'm just saying it needs to be kept in mind when comparing and contrasting healthcare results around the world. Especially when you hear someone say "We can do X bc this country did X and it cost them Y." When Y may be unexpectedly greater for you than you think. 

We do need socialized healthcare. At least a public option. We need to stop the obscene medical bankruptcies. But if you don't fix the problems in the system that cause the costs to rise so much, if you just throw money at it and say it's fixed now bc we just pay for everything for everybody... And then your plan to cover those costs falls thru, then it's deficit spending.

And as I've reiterated before, deficit spending shrinks our usable budget each year bc of interest costs, it causes inflation which lowers the value of your money and increases the value of rich ppls' stocks (which will also be skyrocketing on the revenue growth from all the new spending). It's like an unseen tax on anybody who doesn't keep their money in stocks (poor people don't, rich people own 88% of the market). This is a kind of socialism that the rich would absolutely love.

Some conspiracy theory types believe rich ppl are actively attempting to engineer this scenario. To shut poor people up and keep them from rebelling while still getting richer and richer at the expense of draining the value of everyone's dollar and setting a time bomb in the US debt economy. The fallout of which they will avoid by being more international than you. They'll jump ship whether physically move, or just sequester to their secure estate while moving their assets into investments that would be safe from the downturn.

I don't actually believe that conspiracy, but I think talking about it is colorful and maybe will help get my point across that there is a very bad kind of socialism that would be the best thing ever for ultra rich people. That's why it's super duper important to get the costs right, and solve the core affordability problems before you just pay for everything.

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6 minutes ago, SwimModSponges said:

I dig, I dig.

I'm mostly just lamenting the fact that nabs is arguing.

Nabs and I really want almost the same thing. It just really bothers me when ppl won't vote for Biden or Hillary when I'd vote for Bernie if he had won and been the dem candidate. Even tho I think his policies are flawed. Just bothers me a lot that the left won't unite. 

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That's the nature of democrats being a big-tent party and republicans being single-issue voters.

We need more goddamn political parties in the US.

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4 hours ago, Poof said:

no

"Alt-left" is crypto-fascist lingo for reframing progressive policies, including the ones that allow you to so much as pee in your preferred bathroom, as equivalent to nazism.

Using "alt-left" unironically is honestly shameful.

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3 minutes ago, naraku360 said:

"Alt-left" is crypto-fascist lingo for reframing progressive policies, including the ones that allow you to so much as pee in your preferred bathroom, as equivalent to nazism.

Using "alt-left" unironically is honestly shameful.

Well this isn't at all vaguely threatening. You're right, there's no similarities whatsoever.

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41 minutes ago, Poof said:

Well this isn't at all vaguely threatening. You're right, there's no similarities whatsoever.

What's threatening about it?

Have you not seen the people who use that terminology?

It's the Ginguys of the world, who hasn't posted anything but nazi sources for nearly 2 years (minimum), that frame things as "alt-left". It's the equivalent of the right crying about SJWs any time someone says that people who aren't straight white guys should have representation on TV. 

It's not a threat to call out your framing as being aligned with the people who would love to lynch you the moment they thought they could get away with it. Calling people on their shit isn't a threat, poof.

Seriously, what would I be threatening you with? "Support Biden or else!" to the person who already supports Biden?

It's one thing to dunk on Nab. It's another to utilize propagandist nazi terms to do so. The latter is what I take issue with.

Edited by naraku360
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2 hours ago, Poof said:

Nabs and I really want almost the same thing. It just really bothers me when ppl won't vote for Biden or Hillary when I'd vote for Bernie if he had won and been the dem candidate. Even tho I think his policies are flawed. Just bothers me a lot that the left won't unite. 

If I lived in a swing state where my vote mattered there's a good chance I probably would have ended up voting for Joe Biden. Most of the people in this country who did vote voted for Joe Biden, by a small margin but still a majority. Who exactly are you mad at for not voting for Biden? Whoever it is, that's on the candidate and the party IMO. 

Edited by NaBarney

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1 hour ago, naraku360 said:

What's threatening about it?

The question I most want answered, because seriously, what?

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2 hours ago, naraku360 said:

What's threatening about it?

Have you not seen the people who use that terminology?

It's the Ginguys of the world, who hasn't posted anything but nazi sources for nearly 2 years (minimum), that frame things as "alt-left". It's the equivalent of the right crying about SJWs any time someone says that people who aren't straight white guys should have representation on TV. 

It's not a threat to call out your framing as being aligned with the people who would love to lynch you the moment they thought they could get away with it. Calling people on their shit isn't a threat, poof.

Seriously, what would I be threatening you with? "Support Biden or else!" to the person who already supports Biden?

It's one thing to dunk on Nab. It's another to utilize propagandist nazi terms to do so. The latter is what I take issue with.

Ok so what should I call leftists who say democrats are evil for not being socialist/progressive enough? Or idolize leftist totalitarianism? What term would you be comfortable with?

You're wrong btw. Alt-left doesn't compare leftists to nazis it compares them to stalinists which is exactly the comparison I intended to make.

Yes, I am tired of being called right wing for disagreeing w/bernie bros. Or calling out their hypocrisies.

Now I have you telling me not to call them radicals bc without them I would get arrested for going to the bathroom. Or lynched. 

Is it ok to call them stalinists? Or radical left?

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1 hour ago, NaBarney said:

If I lived in a swing state where my vote mattered there's a good chance I probably would have ended up voting for Joe Biden. Most of the people in this country who did vote voted for Joe Biden, by a small margin but still a majority. Who exactly are you mad at for not voting for Biden? Whoever it is, that's on the candidate and the party IMO. 

It's hard to believe you when you call them demons every chance you get.

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1 hour ago, Poof said:

Ok so what should I call leftists who say democrats are evil for not being socialist/progressive enough? Or idolize leftist totalitarianism? What term would you be comfortable with?

You're wrong btw. Alt-left doesn't compare leftists to nazis it compares them to stalinists which is exactly the comparison I intended to make.

Yes, I am tired of being called right wing for disagreeing w/bernie bros. Or calling out their hypocrisies.

Now I have you telling me not to call them radicals bc without them I would get arrested for going to the bathroom. Or lynched. 

Is it ok to call them stalinists? Or radical left?

The fuck do you think "alt right" is? It's a deliberate comparison to a blatantly nazi group.

Stalinists are typically called "tankies" by lefties. But tankies aren't in line with leftists or progressives.

Dems are also awful people, by the way. Being less awful than Republicans doesn't make them not awful. That's a rather low bar.

Progressives actually are the reason civil rights have expanded. Libs just go with what's popular, progressives make civil rights popular and pressure libs into doing things. That's where voting rights for women and minorities came from.

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